DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hue Jackson: Quarterback Whisperer

In addition, ALL my throws were 10-20 yard types. ALL we're DARTS.

So I purposely tried to mimic Kizer and the severe right leg kick.

Guess what? 2 things happened.

I lost velocity. ALOT of it.

And I'll be damned. The nose of the football started DIVING on me. So much so that my normal motion was consistently hitting my boy at chest level and above. Doing the right leg kick made every pass sail BELOW his waist.

I had to stop before my arm fell off. Lol. I'm not 25 anymore.

Definitely something there and definitely fixable.

Peen. That's a good analogy about Golfing. Hips go first.

Diam. Does Kizer GOLF frequently? Serious question.

Muscle Memory.

Here's another thing I see.

He sets up nicely, but he's got the ball below his chest.

I think if he gets the ball up higher on set up 2 things can happen.

Quicker Release.

Less time for his hips to open up ahead of his throwing motion.

j/c

Is there a preferred source for these game films? I'm not likely to chime in as I'm no guru here, but I'd like to see what you guys are commenting-on.

Also, is the right leg kick issue a reason why Hue had him throw with his feet closer together? (I think that was suggested to Kizer at the combine.) That change was reportedly very effective for him but I never read what that change was supposed to do.

Here's the site I think most people are using:

http://draftbreakdown.com/players/deshone-kizer/

Maybe Kizer needs to get in the yoga studio with Joe. He might be able to work on his balance and staying grounded (meant with regards to his feet/base, but maybe the millenial comments, too) there.

The leg kick is pretty prevalent now that I'm looking for it. Finishing his throws is the area he appears to need to focus on the most.

Thank you.

DeShone Kizer's last game at Notre Dame showed what's right and wrong with him: Doug Lesmerises

Lots and lots of GIFS, worth taking a peek at:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...art_river_index

In 3rd's article, in the GIF named Kizer 9, he makes a beautiful pump fake that causes the CB to break and opens the receiver for the deep pass.

Then in Kizer 10, the right leg thing.

My thoughts are to roll with Kizer out of the gate! Why?
Let’s see what we have and if he improves?
If he isn’t the guy you hoped for then you quickly move on in spite of his record this is the time to find out.
Left out I believe from a development perspective and the key I believe to his development is a strong running game and cut the field up into 4 areas it will lesson his need to read the entire field and allow his confidence to grow.
As important as development is confidence and accuracy are its equal, keep his reads down to area’s stack the routes short middle deep in areas of the field if those areas aren’t open heave the ball in the seats. Keep it simple and let him learn to set to throw to areas.
The developing of a QB is as much about the design of the offense as anything. He can excel I believe in an offense that suits his strengths and improves his overall accuracy and builds confidence at the same time.
I too like the idea of not forcing a QB to play but this isn’t the time to play around let him take his lumps if he gets it by seasons end great if not you move on to next year’s draft and his record should put us at the doorstep of getting the top prospect in the draft.
No time to waste with a guy that has ??? hanging over his head it’s time to make a move up and without a QB your screwed.
The only way to ay tat with any confidence is to play him NOW.
JMHO

I almost agree with that. Still you don't want to throw him in to the fire to soon. Thats how we ruined other QB's. Now if the Coaching staff deems him ready then by all means. I agree with your theory just not sure about the action needed.

I have no problem with others not agreeing I just can't see us spending the time and expending resources on a QB when we have the ammo to get one in the next draft that has a much better chance at success.

If I had any objection to any QB in the 1st round this year, its if he is truly worthy then you take him #1 if he is a wait and see prospect IMO he is a luxury pick. When it comes to this team projects at that position aren't viable because lets be honest we are desperate so we just can't wait they are either up to the job or there not.

It may be that in 2-3 years they make it????

Do you want to wait??? Not me its sink or swim I am tired from waiting...

Its not just that either its we need to know to a certainty come next draft do we move up and get a guy or do we stand pat and continue the project. It has zero to do with his record on the year and everything to do with does he have it and can we round him into a viable franchise QB?????????

So am I right??? But I don't wait... Not this time

I'm not well versed in the nuance of throwing mechanics so I hope to learn more as this discussion goes forward. I did however come across an article this morning that takes plays from several games and the writer talks about traits that were good or bad in each clip. This might be useful for this discussion.

Kizer - film room analysis

--Saw several throws where his lead hip got way out in front of his body. Way too far out to the left. This caused his arm to get outside of the throwing frame and balls typically nose-dived before intended target.

Hey Vers, like I said I don't know a lot about the mechanics of throwing. I'm having some trouble envisioning this flaw, not because it doesn't exist but because I don't know what to look for. Can you give me a game and timestamp from a Draftbreakdown clip that demonstrates what you're talking about?

If its easier use one of the Gifs that are in the article I posted earlier that might demonstrate the same flaw.

I understand your logic in wanting to start him out of the gate ... we need to know NOW what we have ... problem is this ... if we put him out there too soon we will never truely know what we have ... just because we need to know now, its not going to speed up his proccess .. and he has ALOT TO WORK ON ...

You can't rush him just because it doesn't fit our schedule ...

And I'm with Ed and Vers and need to make sure ... Kelly is not the only issue .. not even the main one IMO ... he may have hindered Kizer in his development because he left him with no confidence .. but his mechanical flaws were there in 15 ...

In 15 he threw high on outs specifically an awful lot ... he also started missing guys wide open down the middle of the field ...

So this mechanical flaws were there and have zero to do with Kelly .. other than they didn't get fixed .. if Kelly couldn't see the things we do ... not only is he an a-hole hes not very good at his job ..

Then we need to draft someone next year regardless???

In hind sight having too many is better then the nothing we appear to have now.....

Good question: Here are a few. Watch throws 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 11. Notice that most of the throws were to the left or over the middle to a WR running from the offensive left side. They go really fast and you have to pause them at just the right time to see the front hip open too much and how his arm gets too far out to the right. A lot of these balls sailed high on him because he is unable to follow through properly.

Also, check out this article I posted earlier: http://insidethepylon.com/pylon-u/teams-...wing-mechanics/

It might be easier to see because of his explanations and the timing.

One more thing I want you to look for...Watch how often his right leg kicks up and out to the right. That has to be fixed.


In fact, for anyone who is interested..........stand up right now and pretend you are throwing a football. Pick an imaginary target, such as a picture on a far wall. Notice how your front hip opens up just enough so it is aligned to your imaginary target and how your toes and the ball of your right foot stay on the ground. Feels good, right?

Now.......use that same target, but instead of stepping directly toward the target, step further out to your left w/your front foot. Notice how your right shoulder dips and your elbow is lower. Follow through like you are throwing and notice how your arm goes across the target from right to left. That means your release point is going to be whacked and you will more than likely throw the ball high. You can compensate w/perfect timing and that is why some throws will be good, but it sure to lead to inconsistency.

One more thing to add to that.....Step too far out to the left again w/your lead foot [provided you are right handed] and take your back foot completely off the ground and kick it out to the right. You can feel how off-balance you are.

Kinda cool, huh?

Works even better with an actual football in your hand.

I never thought about doing it until yesterday when I did it.

Fascinating​ what you see when you duplicate what Kizer does.

Yeah, I was just thinking about your earlier post.

Kizer has to have amazing arm talent, because that particular motion is so whacked that it's amazing that he can be as accurate as he is at times.

And again, he doesn't always do it. But, he does it far too often, especially when throwing to his left.

I think Kizer might be the most complete QB we've drafted since Brady Quinn. I like his ceiling.

And that will be the million dollar question at the end of the year ...

More than likely ... cause if Kizer wins the job or is forced into action ... he needs time .. if he does play .. my guess is he will make some throws that make u crave for me ... then he's gonna do some things that make u think u never want to see him play again ... *L* ...

He could surprise me and get in and play really well .. i just don't see how ...

Hue will have a year to work with him .. so he will have a lot more info on witch to base if we need to take one in the top 1/2 of rnd 1 or we can wait til later ... Hue is simply going to have a lot more info than what we see on Sundays ... Pre-Season is a joke for evaluating QB's unless they STINK ... then u know your in trouble .. *L* .. a qb playing wel in pre-season means almost NOTHING in the grand scheme of things ...

almost***

i'm not saying kizer will do as well, but Dak prescott had a beast pre-season that clearly carried over into the entire regular season and into the playoffs, when everybody was saying that he wouldn't be able to replicate his success in preseason.

If you are a coach, and you want a person to succeed, you should allow him excel at what he is good at FIRST - you cater to those traits. You should introduce complexity, elements the person is not comfortable with from a base of confidence, performance, comfort level. I have never understood the square peg in a round hole with QBs. Unless they are truly special and have the mental make-up of a potential great. If I'm a betting man, I go with the former approach. Even then, I think I still go with the build from the ground up.

I think I'm starting to get it now. Especially when I mimic a QB'a throwing motion. A simpler way, for me anyway, to describe it is that his feet seem too far apart when he making his release on these passes. The back foot comes up preventing a significant amount of lower body power from being transferred into the throw. Also, his lower body is at times not aligned with his target again affecting the accuracy of the pass.

BTW, while reading up on this throwing mechanics issue I've heard the term, "soft front leg" used several times. My question is this. Does that mean not locking out the knee of the lead leg before or during the release of the ball?

Something else that I see is that he keeps the ball high and delivers the ball with an overhand motion most of the time. When he gets behind in a game he presses by lowering the ball and having a more elongated release. That can't be good.

Uhmmmm bro..........are you going to look at some of his tape and give your opinions? LOL

Are you seeing what I'm seeing?

Btw----------there is no way Kizer should start until Hue fixes the mechanical issues he has. I think they might be fixable, at least what I've seen in a very limited sample, but there is no way he can go out there w/those flaws and succeed in the NFL. Hopefully Hue can work some magic and Kizer has the desire to learn.

Hopefully, they give the majority of reps to Kessler & Brock through the summer and then have Kizer doing nothing but working on his fundamentals..... and if he can get those down, then set him loose on a legit competition and let him start as soon as he can take the job away from the incumbent.

Another good post by you. I think it's cool you want to learn.

Soft front leg? I never used that specific term. But, your description makes perfect sense because I do know that you don't want to play w/a stiff front leg. LOL...Sorry, I used that term a few years ago to describe Mettenberger and steve gave me some good-natured ribbing. Having a stiff front leg will cause the ball to sail high and it makes you more prone to injuries.

I really haven't noticed that too much yet, but I'll be sure to watch for it now that you brought it to our attention.


guard, I think he drops the ball because of what we were talking about earlier.........when he opens up that front hip too much and out to the left, it automatically causes your shoulder and elbow to drop. You could probably feel it when you tried it earlier.

KWhip brought up a good point earlier. He spoke of muscle memory. It's hard to break. Most of us have probably experienced it one sport or another. There is a tendency to slip back into what feels comfortable when there is pressure to perform. I think it's going to be interesting to see what Hue and company can achieve w/Kizer.

Yeah.........I'm starting to come around on this pick. I think the guy has a lot of potential and while I question Hue's ability to evaluate qbs, I do think he is a very good teacher and he is the right guy to coach Kizer.

We might actually have something here. I gotta watch more tape, though.

Btw----------if anyone is interested.............3rd and 20 posted a very good article earlier. It's out of the order we agreed on, but who cares? It's a good breakdown. Here is the link again for those of you who enjoy learning:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...art_river_index

J/C
Terrific posts, thanx Kwhip and Diam for the time and energy.
I think Kizer needs QB coaching, Reps and Pre-season games. Funny how a lot of people think pre season is useless, well I think they are learning opportunities for players development. I like the pick, and I think he is the future.

Lot of interesting posts here about throwing mechanics. Thanks guys. A compact hip and leaning forward are two key parts of throwing a baseball, football or hitting a textbook forehand or backhand when hitting a tennis ball.
Prison: if he shows up at TC and by the end is the obvious #1, roll with Kizer, perhaps. But I'd prefer to sit him to start the year and see how things go. He's just a kid, half the damn team are kids: we are in no big hurry.

By leaning forward I meant 'good follow-through'.

Good post.... I think this is something that you can easliy work on... Someone posted earlier about yoga and frankly that'd be wise... The flare and opening of the hips is due to lack of core and balance.... He's losing a lot of his power because it's seeping out by opening his hips and losing his balance... If he can get stronger in his core the. He should be able to stay more compact and increase his power/velocity...

I agree that he is losing a lot of power on certain throws. Vers mentioned his throws to the left. I'd go a bit further and say throws to the left flat are a particular adventure for him at this time. Overall I think his arm strength is good to slightly above average. When he throws in rhythm he gets good zip on the ball he can drive the ball into tight windows but at times when he has to reset his feet his flaws show up that's when A) he under throws guys or, B) he's just inaccurate as all hell.

You can just tell, when he has his feet in a good line and hes not throwing from a wide base with that wild right leg, thats where you get his best throws. When he is stepping in the bucket or taking that giant step forward, that is where you get the inaccurate throws.

Vers, couldn't agree more. I think there is some real potential here. Basically, my assessment Andy Dalton with arm strength.

By the way, that link doesn't work.

Yeah. I get 404 Not Found.

j/c

I can't remember what I was watching, but it was Hue/RG3 mic'd up during one of last year's games. You can tell Hue is a QB guy ... like all of his focus was on the RG3 when he's watching the O. He was also very calm and understanding .. that patience will be needed with Kizer IMO. Obviously Kelly's in your face approach made Kizer worse.

Try this:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...art_river_index

It's interesting because I viewed his first game against Texas and then there is this game against USC, which was his last. Go to the last Giphy........it's Kizer 13. Notice:

--the front hip opens too much
--the stiff front leg
--the dramatic kick w/his right leg
--the ball nosediving into the ground

Same three mechanical issues as in the first game. I think Hue starts w/those three areas, and they are pretty much linked.

Another thing I have noticed. Notre Dame's OL gave him some nice big pockets. What interesting to me is when USC got pressure, notice how Kizer makes some good moves in the pocket, only to make really bad decisions and/or throws. It's like he breaks down mentally when pressured. I think that was the case in the UT game, too......but, I gotta go back and look.

If that is a real issue, it might not be fixable like the mechanical issues we have previously pointed out.