DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Front Office...continued

so far this off season I think the FO is doing a fine job thus far.

if we wanted him... why pull the offer?

That's a pretty reasonable view. I agree with you. Learning and growing.

The offer Schwartz refused to sign...that offer?

Correct me if I'm wrong... Sashi says the offer wasn't pulled... Schwartz's brother said it was... and Schwartz and his agent have never said anything.

Someone said this two pages ago:


Wanna guess who?

I don't have to guess. I did. I also asked the question about who said what because I was trying to ascertain why the horse was still being beaten. I usually do not post much. 1200 + posts since the Board started. That is, until I get fed up with reading the same stuff constantly. Anything else you want to know ??

Nope, but you guys who constantly defend the FO bring this crap up far more than mac or anyone else that questions the FO. Y'all are annoying as hell.

I have no problem with Mac.. I liked one of his posts on another thread just yesterday. I am tired of rehashing the same comments constantly. I swear.. this is worse than Couch/Holcomb/Frye/Anderson/Quinn, and it's not even about play on the field. It is about everyone's perception of reality. Agree to disagree and move on...y'all.

I guess my point is that your little group talks about it WAY more than anyone else.

I don't. I want the whole discussion to close. Go back through the 10 plus threads of this topic and count, check my comments, or don't.. it makes no difference to me.

While you are at it.. count up your own comments as well and see who discusses this the most.

[used quick rely.. not responding to mac]

LOL..........you wanna count up the number of posts that defend the FO vs those that question it? It ain't even close. Y'all are intolerable.

Y'all Again.. I've made 1331 posts since September of 2006. You want to try to lay that accusation again ?? Count up my posts in these FO threads and count up your own. Then tell me who's made more. Have fun counting, Y'all

Your search for 'front office ...Versatile Dog' returned 133 results.

Your search for 'front office ...Vambo' returned 102 results.

J/C

Time will judge this FO

That time isn't now of course but I'm quietly optimistic. I'm not making a judgement on the competence but I will say they have conviction, a united front and they are clearly smart. It isn't the train wreck of days of yore and quite frankly, I could get used to the media fawning over the moves they make. Just hoping that the results follow for all our sakes!

Go Browns!

When it is stated that the Browns need to retain their own FA's.
Like Bitonio? Collins? Kirksey?????

I am confident Kirksey will have a deal in place before he becomes a FA.

But... As was posted earlier, if he is offered a contract above market value and does not sign it, how is that on the FO???????

There are two parts to contract negotiations, let us remember that. The offer (FO) and the acceptance (PLAYER/ AGENT).

I don't know if anyone posted anything on this thread or not, but I thought Pryor and Schwartz were offered better deals than they signed.

Was I misinformed??

It's been reported that both Pryor and Schwartz were offered better deals than they eventually accepted.

It's also true that Mack was offered a bigger contract than the one he signed with Atlanta. I think with Mack, the guaranteed money was more with Atlanta. I'm saying this from memory and I could be off a little.

The most important aspect to remember with all of this is that the facts don't matter; only the manner in which you can spin the facts to suit the narrative you want to beat to death matters.

Man you covered everything.. The truck stop business issues included.

Looks like I was misinformed.

Wait, so, is it Sashis fault. Or the Haslems?

Also.

If we didn't want them.

Which is what you said.

Why did we offer them a contract at all.

...but if it happens to be a Browns player who worked years under a rookie contract to develop themselves into some of the best performers on the team and in the NFL...it seems the Browns negotiating team takes on a completely different approach to "their own".


Oh please oh please list the vast achievements of all the players we have released through the last 5 years or have left as FA's that have gone on to have huge probowl years and household names as pillars of their new teams??? Mack? YES.....now I am gonna wait a bit.

So if a player isn't an all pro, you shouldn't keep him on your team?

Tell me then about our upgrade at RT?

Now I'm gonna wait a bit.

Help me out here...who did we lose out on over $$$? On which player were we being cheap?

I'd say Taylor Gabriel had a pretty good year last year. Mingo got a superbowl ring in NE but I can't honestly say he was a pro bowler. Jabaal Sheard had a decent season or two in NE.

Tashon Gibson was ok for the Jags, but not a world beater.

Buster Skrine was ok for the Jets, but like Gibson, not a world beater. I think he may have gotten injured,, not sure.

I was under the understanding that the Chiefs are very happy with Schwartz.

Beyond that, Not sure.

Oh Mitchell Schwartz you mean God's gift to RT's? The guy who is the Kansas Citys PFF ranking was described as "Mitchell Schwartz didn’t quite live up to his last season in Cleveland". While Cleveland there analysis didn't even mention RT as the issue saying this, "
The issue on this line was Cameron Erving, the former first-round pick, playing center in his second season, having struggled massively at guard and tackle as a rookie. He was little, if any, better in the middle, surrendering 30 total QB pressures and being routinely abused as a run blocker. It’s difficult to see much of a future for Erving at this point, and his position is one in need of upgrade."

OL what is it with your love affair with a guy who didn't sign an above avg contract by all accounts and has been argued no contract was taken off the table? I would say they drafted who they liked last year in Coleman who was coming off injury and YOU dont see all season in practice so who are YOU to say he isnt the answer and they just used a stop gap til he was ready?

I am about to rant now so words like "you" doesn't automatically mean just you but those other's with like minds.



There are many options, however, all you and others want to do is bitch and moan bellyache over players who got more than reasonable and fair contract offers and THEY choose to move on so how about YOU move on cus it's done it's over next guy up. How's all the woulda coulda shoulda crap working out for you anyways? Its always the same arguements well if they had signed this guy or drafted that guy, well BIG suprise 30 other teams didn't draft Ben either or Dak or whatever other player you can throw out there this petty my epeen is bigger than everyoneelses's is ridiculous. Have an opinion fine but beating things to a bloody pulp for what? Why?

You actually make my point for me those players while a couple may be starters are they lighting up the NFL are they household names other than in the markets they play in ? No they are not. Mack and Sheard are probably the 2 most looked at as far as production that have moved on recently to be successful. The vast majority of players that are not offered contracts do not go on to be huge names they have solid careers perhaps like any utility baseball guy who lasts 15 years but noone knows him.

All I am really saying is people make out that some of these guys are future first ballot HoFers we are letting go and the sky will fall. Neither has happened. We just keep getting younger and they are hoping to build a team in their vision kinda in the same mold as a team down in Texas did in the early 90's..This team they build will grow together that is what they are doing.

Here is what I remember on the board....Gabriel another short guy who doesn't stay on his feet to catch balls. Don't we have too many of these guys?

Buster Skrine didn't get much love because he wasn't a big outside CB (prototypical) Until he moved on to the Jets then his name seemed to disappear from all records.

Mingo blind squirrels do find nuts his just happened to be shiney.

Gibson he actually didn't get so much the negativity but he was called on his injurys.

Schwartz was actually the guy called out as being the weaker T last season for the Chiefs which comeon now we are talking Eric Fischer. I am not saying Schwartz is a bad player but he isn't the reason on paper our OL sucked he is just the reason used to bash people.

I'm sorry if you don't understand the value of the RT position. Not my cross to bear. And you can "argue" that the offer wasn't taken off the table as some do, but that doesn't explain why Schwartz returned to Cleveland to sign the deal and yet the deal wasn't signed.

And of course you're going to try to muddy the waters by using a term like "love affair" in some derogatory fashion when you don't value the RT position and make excuses why you can't come up with a viable answer to my question of, " Tell me about our upgrade at RT." You don't have an answer. You have projection and possibility.



I've read so many mindless rants on this board one more isn't going to impress me.





Here's how it works. When you wish to look at benchmarks for your coaching staff and FO, looking at past decisions, current decisions and future decisions help people to understand how a regime is doing. Just like I believe they have made great strides and improved from last year to this one.

Ranting and all the rah, rah crap is what doesn't work. You think everything was and is perfect. You think any questions or evaluations are pointless. It's being a blind follower. In case you missed it, we've been through countless coaches and FO's while you and your ilk have been ranting rah, rah then entire time. You've been wrong.



Maybe because people fail to realize that you need to look for improvement. Last year this FO seemed to undervalue the OL. This year it appears they learned from their mistakes and made big investments in the OL. It's improvement, not something negative. I believe they also improved dramatically in their draft evaluations. However, the only way to see that is to look at last year. It's called evaluation.

And BTW- Big Ben was drafted at #11. Not #30. But rant on. lmao

First year in a new system. Yes, once again you call evaluating coaches and FO's as bashing. In case you missed it, I'm not bashing them. I'm pointing that they actually learned and improved. Quit being silly.

Are we supposed to not evaluate our players either? Or do you support a double standard where we can evaluate our players, buy nothing else?

j/c

I've had plenty to say re: the Schwartz deal, so now I'll only say this: Had they gotten it done, we wouldn't be wondering who in the hell is going to be playing there for the next several years.

This is it right here.

Regardless of what went down and who's fault it is, we were worse off not having Schwartz on our team. Arguing that he wouldn't have been worth it because he didn't light it up in KC is silly, imo.

This.

When he left the team, it created another hole that needed filled. We are still trying to fill that hole. When one tries Cam Erving at the spot, you know the coaches are grasping at straws to fill that hole.

Did the position weaken after he left? I know we were a sucky 3 win team with him. I have heard that "logic" already. Well, we were a suckier 1 win team after he left. So, to those who said it couldn't get worse, it did.

One thing I'm not sure many have mentioned.. if any.. is that the FO has a BIG desire for draft picks. They did make a deal with the Texans for a draft pick, the QB involved was supposedly a secondary consideration. If the offer was pulled, which I doubt, could the reason be that they considered the tradeable compensatory pick, they would receive, to be more valuable than the player involved ?

I'm not sure how I feel about that deal. The odds tell us that second round draft picks being an NFL roster after four years in a 50/50 proposition. If they actually made that trade strictly for that draft pick, they paid 16 mil. for a 50/50 shot at a productive player. I'm not sure if I consider that a bargain.

However, if we get a starter and some production in regards to an average band aid at the QB position until we find our franchise QB I believe it is a bargain.

To me the jury is still out on that move.

Not sure if it is just 50/50.

My perception is a 2nd round player plays a good long while in the NFL. But like I said, I don't know, maybe you know better ??

My feeling is that a 2nd rounder is better than a 50% hit rate. By hit rate, I am talking about a player who starts and could start for many of the teams in the league.

I don't consider good players to be be guys considered HOF'ers or multiple Pro Bowlers. Not saying you do either. I just don't think that 50% of 2nd rounders wash out after 3-4-5 years.

ours do

Actually, I think we have had better results from our 2nd rounders than our 1st rounders.

2012 - Schwartz, still starting (just not for us)
2013 - None
2014 - Bitonio, solid starter
2015 - Orchard, not great but still with the team
2016 - Ogbah, so far the best from that class

I am thinking outside the bubble called the Cleveland Browns.

It would be interesting to see the avg. career length by round drafted numbers. I would imagine they are out there somewhere.