DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Brock Pt 2

I'm not a big fan of his. I just think it might not be accurate to say he can't throw the deep ball. A couple of those deep throws were thrown w/beautiful touch and impeccable accuracy.

Something obviously went awfully wrong last year in Houston. But, it's probably too early to throw dirt on his grave. He had some good moments in Denver.

We were discussing him on another qb thread and one poster made it sound like he was playing so bad that he got benched for Manning before the playoffs. I posted an article that shed some light on the situation. Manning got hurt, BO came in and put up much better numbers than Manning had. Manning came back and you don't lose your job to injury, but people in Denver were talking about staying w/Brock because he had played better. Denver decided to go w/Manning for the playoffs. They won the Super Bowl. I think this version is much more accurate than the other versions. No one wanted to hear it, though.

I have been saying all along we shouldn't view him as some piece of trash throw-in to get a 2nd round pick.

He had to do something good along the way.

I have heard that O'Brien is, or can be, a difficult person. Some people don't respond to that type of coaching. If so, Hue seems to be at the other end of the spectrum.

That isn't saying that O'Brien is overly tough and that Hue is weak. It's just personality traits. If Brock responds to Hue's style of coaching, maybe we get the good Brock.

How good would that be?

O'Brien is the guy who had that crazy shouting match w/Tom Freaking Brady. Also, Joe Banner put out a series of tweets about how qbs hate O'Brien.

I doubt Osweiler works out, but I'm going to keep an open mind and see what Hue can do w/the guy.

j/c

Pluto article split into four parts: Brock, FO, OTAs & Pryor.

ABOUT BROCK OSWEILER

Maybe Brock Osweiler isn't the worst quarterback ever to set foot on the earth.

You wouldn't know that, based on all the whispers about Osweiler by the end of last season -- and they became almost screams when he was traded to the Browns.

Osweiler had a miserable 2016 season. He had some problems with coach Bill O'Brien. I'm not going to rehash all that. O'Brien has had three winning seasons with the Texans, so his opinion should count for something.

But as most fans know, Denver general manager John Elway liked Osweiler and wanted to sign him after the 2015 season.

Hue Jackson has adopted a much more upbeat tone about the 6-foot-7 quarterback since Osweiler has been around the coaching staff for several weeks.

"I don't judge people by what everybody else says," said Jackson. "I judge them by what I see. But everybody has a reputation ... his was a little different. He's not any of that ... he's been outstanding in the building."

Jackson also praised how Osweiler has been throwing the ball, how he's made some adjustment from a year ago.

This is progress. The Browns can't simply dismiss a quarterback with a 13-9 career record as a starter because of a rocky season in 2016.

Link

I've been doing a bit of investigating. Came across this:



So, I went to YouTube and tried to find that video, but they didn't have his highlights from that game.

In that game, Osweiler had some poor throws. He also had some very nice throws. I am not getting the part that he can't throw the ball deep. He actually throws a beautiful deep ball.

Check out the game here:




I then went to the Bears game because that game was mentioned in the first article I posted and it was in week 1 of the 2016 NFL season.

Osweiler had good throws and bad throws, but again, he threw some incredibly beautiful deep passes, including a couple of drops. Check out the pass at around the 2:40 mark that Fuller drops. It doesn't get much better.

I see some mechanical issues w/Osweiler that need to be fixed. His front foot is similar to Kizer's. Has to be corrected. Has to hold the ball higher. Etc. But, I not only think that he can throw the deep pass, I actually think it is a strength. Look for yourselves:

I like that he takes his shots downfield. That opens up the running game. I also like that his misses downfield are generally overthrows. I don't like underhthrown deep balls.

This is kind of off-topic, but I have to mention it out of admiration.

Stinkin' Bill Belichick. How great is he?

Against Houston, he adjusts his defense after watching what Houston and Osweiler did against the Bears and Chiefs, which was namely kill them w/deep passes. He takes that away and Houston's offense went south.

Then, he plays us and we are leading the league in rushing and throwing a lot of shorter passes to one side of the field. He adjusts, sells out to stop the running game and forces us to make longer throws, whether they are vertical or horizontal.

The guy is amazing!

Is he amazing or is it just common sense? What's more amazing is that other coaches aren't smart enough to do the same type of things.

I would venture to guess that in any profession 90% of the employees that make up that profession are average to incompetent.

I think he is amazing. And then you see other teams copying New England's defensive game plans.

I have nothing but respect for the guy.

I agree, Rish does have a point....How come not many other coaches would decide to shutdown the deep pass that they beat other Teams with? Is it ego? or just because they beat so & so doesn't mean they can beat us? It's like New England is the only Team that knows how to adjust and do things differently. I have a hard time believing that, still it does seem like he's just about the only coach that takes the time to study their opponent, wonder what everyone else does?

I just finished saying that other teams do copy what he does. Not sure what you are talking about?

Btw---------any thoughts on the videos of Brock and whether or not he can throw the deep ball?

Which brings up a second point
Remember Pettin? and his little buddy? They would talk about having a party after a victory and drinking and carrying on. And this was in the middle of the week. Then there was talk of Farmer and not taking time to talk with Gilbert, now you have to wonder, Just What Did These Guys Do? And How Often? Maybe between the Team business and All the other Team stuff, just how much time do they have to game plan? I think alot of them just coast until the wheels fall off because their already making big bucks.

Yeah, I know. Thats what I'm referring to. It seems like not many coaches out there are willing to put in the time like Belicheck does.

Did you happen to watch the three videos on Brock?

I brought up BB and that's my fault. I'm sorry.

I do have some thoughts on Brock. I'd like to discuss them if anyone is interested. Kinda like we did about Kizer on the Hue being a QB Whisperer thread. People seemed to like that thread. We could discuss some things about Brock's game here.

Any takers?

LOL........I am not feeling very confident on takers.

Not really...I'm old school. If it's a completed pass it's a good one, if it's not, then it's a bad pass. I don't watch anything thats not Browns so until he steps on the field as a Brown, then I won't know. I do think he got a bad rap in houston, anybody that gets offered that much money has to have something to offer. Nobody makes that much being a bad QB.

No taker for me. Discussing Brock is not an interesting topic to me.

But I'll make one more comment on BB. My original comment wasn't to diminish him or his accomplishments. The guy is fanrastic, obviously, and certainly relative to his peers. I just think a lot of what he does just makes good sense.

Why would you not be interested in educating yourself?

Oh..........and that is a serious question. I am not being snarky at all.

I am. On things I find interesting.

Thats me in a nutshell. The Browns is the only thing I find interesting in Football anyway.

Certainly explains some things. LOL

What does it explain?

Involved in this is the way he has constructed his team with the flexibility to adapt his defense to restrict his opponent's offensive strengths. Many teams are built with specific strengths and when they have to make these kinds of adjustments weaken themselves in the process. He builds his teams so that it doesn't matter, he fields players who can do what is needed.

I don't think I've ever said that Osweiler can't throw the deep ball. I think that he didn't throw it last year, for whatever reason, and turned the ball over like crazy. That led to him having the worst QB season in recent memory.

If he can return to his Denver self, which may not have been the real thing, then he is better than I thought (but still not good).

I think it means thats why I'm always pro Browns and they can do no wrong. Now thats does stop when their no longer Browns, but when their Browns it's Win---Win Baby!

Several people have said that about his deep passes. I wasn't specifically thinking about any one poster. Wasn't trying to be insulting. I just kind of took everyone's word for it. Later, I decided to actually look. I was pretty amazed.

He does have issues. No doubt. LOL

But, he might not be a lost cause. I hope a couple of guys will discuss his strengths, weaknesses, and potential w/me. If not, I might just have to talk to myself.

I want to take some time and look at those videos. On another note, Bellickick is on a complete other level. I was so excited when we hired him, then... Well you know. At its base, on D, the man takes what you do best and removes it from the equation, the exploits your weaknesses on offense. Simple philosophy but oh so effective. I know he has a soft spot for Cleveland and to this day I morn for what might have been.

i agreei don't know how to do the plus 1

I don't think he wasn't any good. Elway wanted to sign him. Just not at the amout Houston paid.

Everything was wrong for him in Houston. He signs the big contract, so he is looked as the savior. He had a coach who didn't want him in the first place and made sure to make it a bad fit.

I think he now has a coach who can help him along and a fan base that doesn't expect much. That equals a good situation for him. I expect to see the guy hit his stride. Who knows? In time history might make fans around the country wonder how we ever got that guy.

Teams and coaches TRY to copy Belichick but few if any succeed. The guy is one of a kind. He is truly amazing. He was as a DC and he is as an HC. Belichick and Paul Brown are neck and neck as greatest ever in my opinion. Never thought I see anyone come close to Brown but.....

For real ... your take is that O'Brien (who i think is a jack ass) sabotaged his own team to prove a point ... WOW ... thats worse than what mac says ... *LOL* ...

Now i have heard it all ...

His Throwing mechanics are side armed..Reminds me Of Bernie.Not saying it's good or bad.. It all depends on whether he completes the passes or not...

It also appears he misses simple reads..even the 2 man route..His accuracy and decision making is questionable. Not sure just how much of a football IQ he has.

I am impressed with his interview and how he states how much Coach Hue and Coach Lee have been helping him with the basics and how learning the basics is such a large part of the QB's success.

Well, it may have sounded like that, but that isn't what I meant. Lets just say he was making a point to his GM that this guy wasn't his QB of choice.


We'll see how it works out here.

Yes, he did throw some nice deep balls in those videos. some were long frozen ropes. I saw a couple overthrows under pressure, and a couple INTs that probably shouldn't have been thrown. Some intermediate nice throws, and a couple head scratchers. Sometimes it almost looks like he "shot puts" the ball. Weird kind of pushing motion, rather than a nice smooth follow through. And I also noticed his tendency to "throw smaller" almost like he keeps his throwing hand close to his shoulder instead of coming over the top. I'm assuming these are some of the things Hue is working with him on. I certainly see no reason to write him off at this point. He has the measurables, and seems fairly mobile for a guy his size. I'm going to try to watch some more tape on him this week.

What's your opinion on this Peen..

If a coach purposely doesn't put his players in the best possible position to perform well for reasons of teaching his GM anything, what do you think of that coach?

If I'm the owner, that guy is fired.. (assuming I can prove it)

As an owner you really don't have to prove it. You only have to believe that it's true. You have the power to fire people at will. I mean, you've seen that a lot as a Browns fan haven't you?

No coach in the league will lose just to spite somebody. They would be putting their career on the line. Sometimes QB's just don't fit the scheme and some coaches lack the ability to adjust their scheme to fit the talent they've been given.

K ...

Thats the buety Mr. Peen ... we will find out ...

WOOF WOOF!!!!

j/c:

I am going to answer questions from Canada and lamp that were in the OTA thread. I don't want to make that thread solely a Brock thread. I am also going to give a few other observations. I have watched only 4 game videos and the low-light video-, so I really don't have a complete picture, but I thought I'd get the ball rolling and see if anyone else is interested in educating themselves.

Canada mentioned about Brock looking at his primary receiver and then checking down if the dude wasn't open.

Yep, from what I saw...and again that is limited....he most certainly did do that. Good observation, Canada. That's a problem, no doubt.

lamp mentioned that his delivery might be too slow. I don't really see that, bro. It might be that he is so tall that he looks slow. I actually thought he was rushing his delivery. LOL.

A few observations on Brock [and again.......I only watched four games and the low-light video.]

Strengths:

--Throws a beautiful deep ball. It still amazes me how some posters claim he can't throw deep. One poster even said Cody was better at it.

--Has a great touch on many passes, but especially on the deep passes.

--Very accurate on many deep throws and crossing routes

--Way better runner and athlete than I imagined.

--Very nice arm and he trusts it. [Wait until you see the negatives on this point. LOL]

--Can throw on the move, especially when moving to his right.


Concerns:

--Doesn't go through progressions, in the games I saw.

--Makes some really bone-headed decisions.

--Sometimes gets out of whack w/his mechanics. Front leg gets too far out to the left and he throws a worm burner.

--Hurries too much. Relax mon.

--Trusts his arm way too much.

--Throws some inaccurate passes that make me scratch my head.


Some other thoughts:

--His receivers dropped a ton of balls. Fuller had bad hands at ND and he dropped a ton. So did Hopkins, the RBs, and the TE. Just watch the videos I posted and you can easily see that.

--There seemed to be a lot of miscommunication. Throws would go to one area and the receiver would cut in the other direction. That was especially true w/Fuller. That is to be expected. New, inexperienced qb in a new offense and a rookie WR. Stuff happens.

--I laughed my ass off at the low-light video. Many of the throws the dude put on there were very good. There were drops, guys running the wrong routes, pass interferance [you could see the ref starting to throw the flag on one of them,] tight coverage, etc. For those who understand the game, it was almost like an apologist video for Brock's issues.

With that said.........I am NOT apologizing for him. He has some real concerns that need to be fixed.

Summary:

Hmmmmm..........I don't know. I see talent. Way more talent than Cody. I absolutely love his touch and accuracy on the deep balls. I hate how he makes bone-headed throws. I think Hue might be able to coach him up and we might have something w/the guy. I am not saying he is "the guy," but at this point, I won't rule it out.

Would love to see some honest discussion by those willing to educate themselves, rather than "he sucks," types of posts.

Vers, I went back on NFL.com, and looked up Osweiler's pre-draft review. You hit on many of the same points regarding positives and negatives as they did. It's an interesting read if you want to look it up.

The description of him on there reads like a Browns fan's Christmas list: big, strong arm, mobile, athletic, can make all the throws, etc.

I'd be a happy fan if Osweiler ends up as a good, quality starter. Then again, I'll be a happy fan if any of the guys on our roster end up as a good, quality starter.

Ham........would you be willing to post that profile on this thread? I'd like to see it. It might help others who want to be educated, too.