DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Brock Pt 2

Yet Hue, who loves to give positive re-enforcement to his players in order to motivate them, felt the need publicly call him out for refusing to press the ball downfield. You yourself admit that opposing D's have game planned for years now to force our QB to beat them and Cody simply could not do that.

I don't see a hill to climb for any of our QB's. It's the same problem you mentioned. Who can push the ball down the field to force their D to respect our passing game.

I don't think the weakest arm of the top three really has an advantage in that battle.

If Brock starts .. its more an indictment of CK not improving at all than it is that BO is any good .. that guy STUNK IN DENVER and was worse in Houston .. .look at the weapons hes played with in those two places ... *LOL* at him excelling here ...

Looks like you have a personal stalker ... very shocked at who it is ... very shocked ... oh well .. life's full of surprises ...

Responses are bolded above. The POINT is bolded, italicized and underlined and are your words.

We agree what teams were doing to stop us...I think EVERYONE sees/saw that...but it didn't happen that way against NE while CK was in the game. If that's splitting hairs, so be it.

I know better than to challenge someone's critique of schemes, alignments, techniques, etc. I am NOT that guy and I've readily admitted that on this board. But I DO watch the games...twice or more on most occasions because I like to learn and re-watch the games after reading posters' comments in post-game threads.

CK was in for (3) series. Two ended on the third play of the series after a blitzer came through the line basically untouched. The other one was arguably the best drive of the year. That doesn't change the way to defend him and that doesn't make him THE guy. The only thing 'exposed' to other teams that day was simply how bad the Erving/Bailey combo could be.

j/c:

This thread is a good example of how certain posters can ruin a thread. Not too long ago in this thread, I posted a series of videos and tried to talk about Brock's strengths and weaknesses in those games. That seems like football talk to me. Didn't get too many replies, but we got one poster doing his best to make this about board personalities and others joining in on that conversation.

Follow his lead. It's productive.

Here is a quote from YOU in THIS thread:

"This is kind of off-topic, but I have to mention it out of admiration.

Stinkin' Bill Belichick. How great is he?

Against Houston, he adjusts his defense after watching what Houston and Osweiler did against the Bears and Chiefs, which was namely kill them w/deep passes. He takes that away and Houston's offense went south.

Then, he plays us and we are leading the league in rushing and throwing a lot of shorter passes to one side of the field. He adjusts, sells out to stop the running game and forces us to make longer throws, whether they are vertical or horizontal.

The guy is amazing!"

Just following your lead.

jc:

Brock Osweiler takes blame for 'poor decisions, poor throws' with Texans

Unloaded to the Cleveland Browns in a classic Moneyball style salary dump after a horrible one-and-done season with the Texans, quarterback Brock Osweiler acknowledged blame for his shortcomings last year.

In his most candid remarks since being traded to the Browns where he's drawn solid reviews from coach Hue Jackson as he competes for a starting job with Cody Kessler and rookie DeShone Kizer, Osweiler discussed where he regressed with the Texans after signing a four-year, $72 million contract.

"The best part is I'm getting coached hard on my fundamentals," Osweiler told Cleveland reporters. "And I believe firmly that when your fundamentals and your feet are right as a quarterback, you're going to make great decisions and you're going to throw accurate footballs.

"I think that's something that slid last season. I'm not going to go into great detail on that, but they did. My fundamentals slid, and because of that, you saw some poor decisions and some poor throws. If you go back to 2015, I feel like my fundamentals were pretty tight."

Osweiler was essentially sold to the Browns in exchange for the Texans sending them a 2018 second-round draft pick and a 2017 sixth-round draft pick, netting a 2017 fourth-round pick in the exchange as Cleveland assumed responsibility for his $16 million guaranteed base salary. The Texans saved $10 million in salary-cap space and $16 million in cash this season.

Osweiler won one playoff game with the Texans last season, beating an Oakland Raiders team that was without injured starting quarterback Derek Carr. However, he was intercepted three times in their AFC divisional-round loss to the eventual Super Bowl champion New England Patriots.

Benched late in the season and replaced by Tom Savage before Savage suffered a concussion in the regular-season finale that forced Osweiler back onto the field, the towering quarterback finished the regular season with 15 touchdowns and 16 interceptions for a 72.2 passer rating.

In his final season with the Denver Broncos prior to joining the Texans as a free agent, Osweiler went 5-2 as a starter and passed for 1,967 yards, 10 touchdowns and six interceptions and an 86.4 passer rating.

"I think I did a pretty good job in 2015 of protecting the ball," Osweiler said. "Last year, I didn't do such a good job. So coming into this camp and this team and this system, I had a very large focus on making great decisions with the football, and I feel like for the most part, I've done that this camp."

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/t...twitter-premium

Brock had some skills... Something that john Elway wanted to retain. So, I can't tell you what happened in Houston, but I'm pretty sure he not nearly as bad as Texas made it seem but he's probably not as great as Elway made it seem.

I'd gladly take something in between those two.. hope it leans more towards Elways thinking.

I think we both know that some of these articles should be taken with a grain of salt. It was a good read but I do believe it's way too early in the process to say any of our QB's have a leg up on being the starter on day one of the regular season.

What I will say is it seems Kizer is taking a lot of reps with the ones right now and there is buzz surrounding Brock. Enough so that all of the posters who claimed that Cody was the destined day one starter should be reconsidering that idea. lol

I don't believe that Brock has taken a single 1st team rep in the OTAs a d Mini Camps yet.

I'd be a little bit cautious about him thus far.

Both Kiser and Cody have taken the 1st team reps, but Kiser has taken at least some of those against the #2 defense.

Hogan has taken a lot of the 3rd team reps.

100% agree with the grain of salt comment.

My takeaway from this article is... what about Cody Kessler? Why isn't anyone talking about him? That worries me (as much as you can get worried about someone who you don't think is going to be your starting QB past the midpoint of this season).

The fact that cody has had a year in this system and was given top billing for mini and ota's, yet he has not shown to be better than the raw rookie. He has to protect his position and he has already allowed the rookie to outshine him. Hell he may be in danger of being the 4th QB soon. Hogan has had a stellar camp from all I have heard.

I don't think the article is saying that he is going to be the starter. I think it's more about that the perception was that he was either going to be traded or cut and he has done enough to at least be permitted to compete for the job.

I think some posters are not willing to keep an open mind and do the research and instead automatically dismiss him. I have no idea who is going to start or be number 2. I just think it's important to keep an open mind at this point. Right now, I think the qb job is wide open, but I could be wrong about that.

I can only tell you what I read a while back, and this is from my recollection... He apparently had a watered down offense when he was in Denver because they didn't want to overwhelm him. In Houston, they had a very complex offense that did overwhelm him.

As well, my 2 cents...in Denver he was fighting to get a big money contract. In Houston, he had that big money contract. I can only imagine that he wants to keep making that big money and he has refocused to maximize the chance that he keeps the contract, knowing that if he gets cut, next contract will be small in comparison.

I agree Vers. Let the best guy be the man; what happened before doesn't matter. If it's Brock, Cody, Kizer or Hogan - let us improve with the guy who is the best choice. Let us start winning divisional games. Let's start the journey to where we all belong.

What I have heard is just a little different. I heard that Denver's offense was more qb friendly and not nearly as complex as Houston's offense. I don't think Denver's O was "watered down" for Brock. I just think that was their offense.

I think your right and I also think Daman has a point. I don't care who you are...You don't offer big time starting QB money like Denver did and then Houston to someone who you think would make a so-so backup or a 3rd string QB. Just not gonna happen.
Someone or Someones saw something in him to pay him like a starter, not just one pair of eyes. Like I said before I don't care who you are, there's something there.

We don't know for certain who will the signal caller vs the Steelers for sure
But I do know this.....
As long as this franchise is test driving QBs trying to find the answer
It will never see a winning season much less .500.
Osweiler is no better than the RG3 Delhommes and whatever other QBS they have found in the discard pile.
Osweiler was fools good. Plain and simple.
3 teams in 3 years
If you have to go through 3 qbs to see what you have then you don't have 1.

If Denver thought he was so good ... why did they bench him for the playoffs for a guy that had thrown 9 TD's and 17 picks and wasn't deemed healthy enough to start the season final ...he came in for the last quarter of that game or so .... a guy that literally couldn't throw the ball 30 yards down field ...

How does that work? ..

Then he followed it up by being benched for the immortal Tom Savage ... ya ... u ever heard of him? ...

Houston got Scott Mitchelled ...

Yeah.

We should of just stuck with Couch Wynn McCown Frye Quinn McCoy Weeden Manziel Kessler ...wait.

What are you talking about?

Why was Denver willing to offer him starter money then? Elway wanted to keep him. Just saying, People wanted him, there's a reason.

Again ... the proof is in the pudding ... he was benched for the playoffs for a guy that hadn't played in 5 - 7 weeks and had thrown for 9 TD's and 17 picks ...

U can't explain that one ...

FOOLS GOLD BABY ... theres a long list of them ... Matt Flynn ... Matt
Cassell ... many many more ...

The numbers they throw around are impressive ... but what really matters is how much is GAURANTEED and when it's GAURANTEED ... no clue why GAURANTEED keeps getting capatilized ... crap ... its pretty depressing when I'm not smarter than my keyboard ... *LOL* ..

Look at what Glennon got this year ... everyone said it meant they wouldn't draft a QB in round 1 cause they gave him him 15 mill over 3 years ... in reality it was a one year contract with 18 mill GAURANTEED ... all in year 1 ...

Yes ... Mike Glennon the STUD Mike Glennon got 15 million a year according to the contracts total numbers ...

It'll play out here ... I've made my prediction ... he'll be out of the league in 3 years ... if he starts here its more a reflection of CK being that bad as opposed to BO being even average ...

Why are your resorting to making crap up. I posted an article on how it went down. He wasn't "benched." Manning got healthy and reclaimed his job. Stop making crap up.

And if I'm not mistaken, there were a lot of eyebrows raised when Manning was put back in, weren't there?

I posted the article. I will find it again if I have to.

The bottom line is this: Manning got hurt. Denver had to play Brock. Brock played way better than Manning. The fans and media were wanting to stick w/Brock because he was playing better than Manning had. In the end, Denver decided to stick w/Manning for the playoffs.

I just don't like when posters post BS to further their agenda. The same dudes saying this stuff don't even take time to break down the videos. They're mind is made up. Total hogwash.

And once again. I am NOT saying Brock should be the starter. I am NOT saying he is good. I simply think that it should be an open competition and let the best man win. I don't have my head 8 inches up Cody's butt like some.

I agree.

QB Brock Osweiler emerges as favorite to start for the Cleveland Browns

http://www.oregonlive.com/nfl/index.ssf/2017/06/qb_brock_osweiler_emerges_as_f.html



By Geoffrey C. Arnold

The Oregonian/OregonLive

Brock Osweiler was an ignored quarterback when he arrived in Cleveland after the Browns acquired him in a trade with the Houston Texans in March.

A $72 million bust in Houston, the Browns immediately attempted to trade Osweiler, but couldn't complete a deal. Osweiler's situation has changed dramatically since those dark days. Osweiler has performed very well in organized team activities (OTAs) and minicamp, and he is expected to enter training camp as the No. 1 quarterback and he'll likely be the starter when the Browns open the regular season.

Osweiler has come a long way since he was virtually run out of Houston after a disastrous season in 2016. He finished the season with 15 touchdown passes and 16 interceptions while posting a 72 passer rating. The on-field performance was bad enough, but the four-year, $72 million contract scared nearly everyone away.

Except the Browns, who were willing to take Osweiler off the Texans hands with the thought of immediately trading him.

"I don't judge people by what everybody else says. But everybody has a reputation before them. His was a little bit different," Browns coach Hue Jackson told reporters in May. "He's not any of that that we've (seen). The guy has been outstanding in our building, and I think that's what's most important."

sweiler doesn't have much competition at the position. Second-year player Cody Kessler and 2017 first-round draft pick DeShone Kizer are battling for the backup spot.

yea I said Brock or Kizer starts week 1.

and if Kizer said he is not ready and Hue said they are in no hurry to start Kizer but develop him.

Then Brock week 1 starter followed by Cody and then Kizer/Hogan.

Well as long as u have an article, i guess that settles it ...





I'm surprised your computer didn't burn up when u typed that .. *LOL*



Ive watched every snap hes taken for the last two years ... i dont need to break down his highlight video ...



Guess i could learn about being open minded from your example with CK ...



U crap on CK every chance u get .. I've said he will improve this year but we have no clue how much ... I've said i think his ceiling is a good back up ... yup ... that sounds like someone with his head up CK's ass ...

I've also said if BO starts its more a reflection on CK and the fact he didn't improve enough ...

Later Vers ... this is not productive ... enjoy yourself ... I'm out ...

It doesn't settle anything, but I could tell that you never even took the time to read it because your mind was made up.



Actually, one of the tapes was for EVERY throw he made in the game. And another was about the entire game and NOT a Brock highlight film. Don't check them out, though. You might learn something. LOL..........I actually remember when you used to like to learn.




I think he will improve, too. Never said he wouldn't. You just keep putting words into my mouth. Here is what I think.............he can improve his game management, his nerves, his reads, him not pissing down his leg and throwing the ball backwards out of the endzone, being quicker w/his decisions, etc. But, until I see it happen.......I have my doubts [just like I did when he was in college] of being able/willing to challenge a defense vertically or horizonatally.



Promise? LOL

Oh, and I think it is productive because I believe in keeping an open mind about the QB competition is productive rather than giving the job to any of these guys or by the same token, eliminating them.

You forgot to mention the name of the bum that replaced Brock.... Peyton "Omaha" Manning.... HOF First ballot for sure.

Sheesh....

I don't rule out Brock. I was sticking up for the guy early on.

I am not saying he will be the guy. In the long run, it will probably be Kiser, but hey, we are due a break.

But, this could also be build-up in a effort to trade the guy after camp opens. Someone is going to need a QB.

I am willing to let this one play out and see how it goes through camp. I don't have any real vested interest in any of our QBs on the roster. I think we are in a position that one of them will emerge to be at least a fairly good trigger man for this season.

I have never been one to think you have to have a best QB on the field. You just need one good enough, because unlike baseball or hockey where a pitcher or goalie really do win games for their team when they are "on", a QB still has to rely on other players to get the job done. I don't think a QB should have a win/loss record.

If I was to bet, Brock will be opening day starter barring a meltdown, I think last year was an issue in playing for O'brien, I think in a system tailored for him he could be a stop gap, He has an NFL arm and size esp for the AFCN. I think he'll either be the starter or moved. I think you have to get Kizer some game reps this year to get an idea of what we have before a QB heavy draft next year.

Brock Osweiler looks like a legit factor in the Browns' QB battle, not a salary dump


CHRIS BURKE
Friday June 16th, 2017

BEREA, Ohio — This is not a sideshow. It’s not doing a favor for a veteran player, nor is it merely trying to make the best of a bad situation.

O.K., maybe it’s a little bit that last one.

No matter how they reached this point, though, this much was clear as the rebuilding Browns wrapped their three-day mini-camp Thursday: Brock Osweiler will enter training camp next month with every opportunity to win the starting quarterback job.

“I’m speaking from my heart: He has been great,” Browns quarterbacks coach David Lee said. “His questions have been great. He has a lot of questions, but he oughta have. He knows how to play, he knows systems and when a read doesn’t make sense to him, there’s a reason it doesn’t because of somewhere he’s been before. I can’t speak of where he’s been before but I’ll tell you right now … he looks like a guy that’s played before. He’s great at the line of scrimmage, he’s great in the huddle, [has a] calming effect.

“Is he the QB yet? We ain’t got one yet, but he’s in the mix, for sure.”

This is a long way removed from March 9, when Houston traded Osweiler to Cleveland and the Browns’ official press release on the matter highlighted the acquisition of a 2018 second-round draft pick. “Cleveland will also acquire Houston’s 2017 sixth-round pick (188th overall) and QB Brock Osweiler for the Browns’ 2017 fourth-round compensatory pick (142nd overall),” the release read.

At the time, it appeared little more than a salary-dump deal—the Texans clearing Osweiler’s $16 million guaranteed salary for ’17 off their books; the Browns obliging with their excess cap space.

The outlook shifted over the ensuing weeks, in large part because Osweiler has impressed the Browns’ coaching staff. Hue Jackson at the end of OTAs called Osweiler a “pleasant surprise”, a phrase Lee repeated Thursday.

“You can say what you want, but [Osweiler] in the last two years has taken two different teams to the playoffs,” Lee said, “and there’s nobody else in that room that can say that, plus this is his sixth year of experience. We’ve got no experience. [DeShone] Kizer’s been here four months, the other two [Cody Kessler and Kevin Hogan] were rookies last year.”

Argue if you want (and you should) the notion that Osweiler “took” either the 2015 Broncos or the ’16 Texans to the playoffs. He was benched in both instances, the latter after securing a high-priced deal as a free agent. But he does have 21 career starts, and 36 total appearances, under his belt.

Considering how NFL coaches treat experience as if it one day may replace paper money as official currency, that playing time matters.

“Pressure is something that we all want to ignore, but at the end of the day it is there,” Osweiler said during a press conference Wednesday. “We have pressure to get our job done, to help our team win football games. That can’t be replicated until you’re a full-time starter in the NFL ... you don’t know how to handle that on a week to week basis.”

Osweiler ran the second-team offense throughout mini-camp, while Kessler and Kizer split time with the 1s—Kessler took the earlier snaps Tuesday and Thursday; Kizer had them Wednesday. Those reps matter, of course, but the order in which they are doled out will carry a lot more weight in July and August.

Reading into them also would be easier on a team with a more settled roster. While Kessler and Kizer had the benefit of working with top WR Kenny Britt during those team drills, receivers like Josh Boyce, Rannell Hall, Ricardo Louis and Rashard Higgins cycled through. In other words, especially with receiver Corey Coleman missing from practice due to injury, the Browns are far from having their depth chart pinned down.

Kessler’s edge comes from the year spent in the system. He started eight games as a rookie in 2016 after being taken in Round 3 out of USC. Cleveland lost all of those Kessler starts en route to 1–15, but again: Experience counts.

Kizer is the shiny new toy, a bit of a gift delivered the Browns by the rest of the league when he slipped to the No. 52 pick in this year’s draft.

“His big-play ability, that’s what that dude’s gonna give this football team if he ever becomes the starter one day,” Lee says. “The way his ball moves and jumps off his hand and gets to the receiver in a hurry … that’s what I see in him, is a big, strong guy, which is defined in this division by Ben [Roethlisberger] and by Joe Flacco, and this kid’s in that mold."

The Browns would love Kizer to be their future at QB, but how soon will that moment arrive? Lee added that his rookie is “a long way from being ready,” with just training camp and the preseason left before Cleveland’s season opener against Pittsburgh.

“How many really great young talents had to start Day One, bad things happened and they’re sitting, looking up at the ceiling in the meeting room, thinking, ‘What’s going on with my life?’” Lee said. “You’d love to not put him in there until he’s ready, but we don’t know when that is.”

With all of Cleveland’s QBs, the goal this spring and summer has been to clean up fundamentals. Lee describes both Osweiler and Kizer as “long striders,” an issue in mechanics that often leads to inaccuracy in the passing game. The goal for Kessler, meanwhile, has been to add velocity to his throws so he could drive the ball deep. “He was always accurate,” said Lee, “but he wasn’t really that deadly accurate past 15 yards, but he’s gotten better and better.”

Anyone who saw Osweiler flail in 14 regular-season starts last season (and again in a playoff loss to New England) knows how dismal his game can be when he’s reeling. For all the stability Cleveland’s staff feels he brings to the QB room, the improvement obviously has to be there on the field, too.

Even Thursday, as the Browns worked on two-minute drills during an abbreviated practice, it was a mixed bag for Osweiler. He did manage to complete his task: Take the offense from its own 37 into field-goal range, starting with 1:04 left on the clock. He also nearly threw an interception to Briean Boddy-Calhoun—the second-year CB was unable to tiptoe the sideline after an errant deep ball; it’s hard to say, without the benefit of a replay, whether Osweiler misread the play, there was a miscommunication with his receiver or the receiver simply slipped for a moment. And a second pass flew dangerously into the secondary for an incompletion, as one of those aforementioned “long strides” led to Osweiler overshooting a target across the middle.

“Brock knows it,” Lee said. “It’s just when we start moving around, the bullets start flying, his legs get long again like daddy long legs and that’s when he gets in trouble and the ball sails. It comes out of his hand too high, because of his long stride, his body doesn’t catch up. Any passer gets long, the ball comes out too early. Their brain says, ‘Let it go,’ but their body hasn’t caught up with their front foot, so the ball sails. It’s a lot of work to get a guy to master the footwork.”

At what point, if any, does it become too late to make those fixes? In hindsight, Osweiler’s fit within Bill O’Brien’s Texans scheme turned out to be a clunky one, but can the now 26-year-old QB eliminate enough bad habits of the past to win another chance as a starter?

“I think the biggest thing, and I think coming off last season, is protecting the football,” Osweiler said, on the main element he needs to work on this summer. “I think I did a pretty good job in 2015 protecting the ball; last year I didn’t do a good job. I had a very large focus on making great decisions with the football, and I feel like I’ve done that this camp.”

All of this figures to weigh on the Browns, and on Jackson specifically, until someone separates himself from the pack. “For me, I have to continue to solve the quarterback issue because that is where it starts,” Jackson said. “Everywhere else, we are really growing. Not that we are not growing at quarterback, but just having a guy and saying, ‘This guy can run our organization, run our team and play at a high level and help us win.’ That is always going to be the question all of you will have until we solve it.”

So, who is the favorite right now? If Jackson and his staff know the answer, it seems nothing shy of a congressional hearing would get the answer out of them. Even then ...

Congressman: “Who is your starting quarterback?”

Hue Jackson: “I don’t know if I can answer that in an open setting.”
https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/06/16/brock-...flow_twitter_si

I am liking everything I hear from Lee. He seems like a good coach.

As long as his teaching method turns on a light in at least 1 of our QB's, he is a great coach.

Many times it's not about them being a good coach. The vast majority are. Many times it boils down to them being the right coach for the right player.

I think you know what I mean.

I would just like to add to your post. It also takes having the talent at the position. You can be the best coach there is but if those supplying the talent don't provide you with a QB that's capable of making the transition from college to the pros, it's not going to help.