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 first time you have replied to a post I made...I see you are keeping it all football.
Hey I got to read your and some other posts crying about these cuts. Not once but like 15 times. Which gave the appearance of whining not talking about some moves that you disagree with.
Like really our 5th WR is the key to this team...lol 
And I've questioned the moves that I thought were not good for this team. Coates in which cost either Hall, Leslie or Payton the opportunity to make this team.
I'd like to see our Practice Squad after being named today.
But thank you for your riveting board contributions...
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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j/c
I didn't realize that Marcus Martin was still only 23. Feels like he should be older.
I know that a fair number of you are upset about releasing Greco, but I keep coming back to the fact that it makes sense. The FO has preached Draft and develop and a desire for sustained success since they were put in place. Older starters you can live with, but older backups likely won't help you keep getting better. Greco was likely as developed as he was going to get and only going to get worse with age. Harsh, but hard to deny if you look at it objectively. Can anyone think of a guard that has improved after 32? If the guys we kept continue to improve, they have a chance to take over as our current starters decline. If rosters were bigger or you could make sure guys made it to the practice squad, keeping aging veterans for depth would be more feasible. At OL, where backup guards hopefully won't play (unlike other positions that rotate players through), it's easy to get caught up in the numbers game. Greco really only adds value to the team if someone gets hurt, and his future value is dwindling as his career is drawing closer to the end. I was a Greco fan ... I don't like seeing him go. For 1 it does not make us a better team. And while I get the 'develop your youth' mantra and thinking .... at some point you also got to run with some veteran influence. Everything I have ever seen with my eyes indicates Greco is the sort of player that you need to build 50% of your roster from - hard working, good character, all effort guy, average or above average skills. Not everyone on your team - heck not every starter is a stud or a 'very good' player. . . . . And there is a saturation point of "YOUNG" players that does your team no good - and at 28 players (??) that have one year or less experience ... that sound like beyond the saturation point to me. I have not seen how he has recovered from injury. I have not seen how good or bad the backups that are going to step in for him are going to be. . . but I doubt if they are going to be as competent - and I bet we have kept players that never become a shade of the player Greco was. Haden I was less concerned about - I have seen his play for the last 2 years when playing through injuries and to me he looks like he is a shadow of his former self. In Taylor and BBQ I see two players I am happy to start in front of Haden. I always thought of Haden as a good team player and someone you want - but he's also not what I think of as a student of the game and got by by physical talent as much or more than anything. When those skills and his speed decreased it had a tremendous impact ... we will see. If he is recovered and closer to his best than I believed then it was a bad move. We'll see that up front and personal soon.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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So, you call people whiners and then criticize them when they respond? Awesome.
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Legend
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I don't think Greco was back to full health and it showed. Probably the kicker, we gave him the opportunity to show what he could do. Figured we didn't think he would contribute much this year working his way back and would not be with us next season. Greco was good better than most gave credit for but he is getting up there in age and he was NOT back to form from his injury.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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The usual OH NO's saywhat most of which we are talking the bottom of our barrel. Every year the optimist sooner or later you have to be right. But to date you haven't been within smelling distance. And that is factual..  So boo hoo to the side who ends up being right? Certainly not YOU 
BTTB
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Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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j/c
I didn't realize that Marcus Martin was still only 23. Feels like he should be older.
I know that a fair number of you are upset about releasing Greco, but I keep coming back to the fact that it makes sense. The FO has preached Draft and develop and a desire for sustained success since they were put in place. Older starters you can live with, but older backups likely won't help you keep getting better. Greco was likely as developed as he was going to get and only going to get worse with age. Harsh, but hard to deny if you look at it objectively. Can anyone think of a guard that has improved after 32? If the guys we kept continue to improve, they have a chance to take over as our current starters decline. If rosters were bigger or you could make sure guys made it to the practice squad, keeping aging veterans for depth would be more feasible. At OL, where backup guards hopefully won't play (unlike other positions that rotate players through), it's easy to get caught up in the numbers game. Greco really only adds value to the team if someone gets hurt, and his future value is dwindling as his career is drawing closer to the end. Sad but true...I get it but I don't like it. If Greco could play T he might still be here...but he can't. I'll always appreciate and respect what he did for my team. Sterup - who isn't ready yet - can line up at T...and that's the only reason he's still here...for now. I don't know why Higgins made the cut when Leslie/Hall did not, but that's the only cut/keep that has me scratching my head. If they waive Higgins and snare Carr the hand-wringing should subside here. The other moves make sense. Guys like Schult - who played well with the backups - seem like a disappointing cut until you have to say which player you'd cut to keep him. Today should be interesting.
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Legend
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I should add - and maybe this should be in the FO thread ...
I like the FO with most of their moves. I think their ability to offer contracts to players that gauge and value a player have been extraordinary. . . RS and Pryor both left - and it hurt our team and we can debate whether we should have 'overpaid' for them to keep them .... what we can't do is deny that in both cases the FO did a somewhat amazing job of rating the contract value the players were "due" based on the NFL.
The FO ability to get players that help the team AND compile and stockpile draft picks is outstanding. Someone with more time than me needs to sort through the Carson Wentz trade last year and factor in who we have on our roster that all came from the #2 pick last year. And then add into that the #1 pick we have next year too. . . . About week 5 or 6 when Kizer is struggling against a brutal opening schedule and Wentz is looking good - I am sure that topic will be reviewed !!
Compared to previous drafts I think the FO has made some good picks. Last year's defensive mid round picks look good. Coleman looks like he might become the WR we thought he was when we drafted him .... Garrett and Peppers and Kizer all *appear* to be solid selections. Everyone probably sees the potential in Njoku.
BUT BUT BUT - I do not believe the FO is head and shoulders above every other NFL team in evaluating talent in all rounds of the draft and in finding gems in the 5-6-7 rounds. Keeping EVERY player you select says you think you were right on every selection ... TWO YEARS IN A ROW ... that is not probable and based on the history of the NFL and all the other teams I doubt if it's even possible... unless of course you are arrogant and egotistical. That's a really big red flag for me despite all the other good things I have seen and could easily undo all the other good work done. jm 2 cents.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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j/c...
Bitonio OG
Campbell Safety
Crowell RB
Hughlett LS
Kirksey LB
Meder DL
Orchard DL
Shelton DL
Joe T OL
We have 9 FA or traded Vets on our roster.
So 18 who are contributors.
Most all the rest are drafted players or young players picked up off waivers several who are UDFA.
I'd be curious if someone compared the 1988 Cowboys roster to the 1991 Cowboys roster, or the 1999 Patriots roster to the 2001 Patriots roster or the 1991 Packers roster to the 1993 Packers roster and see how much turnover there was... Maybe I'm wrong and there was very little turnover and the main difference was getting the right head coach?
Last edited by devicedawg; 09/03/17 09:11 AM.
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Legend
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What you do is you build.
What does that mean?
It means you keep what’s good, and you add to it.
We haven’t done that, and until we have that level of stability we will never ever be truly good.
A player drafted by Sashi Brown..that player is assured a roster spot..a player drafted in the last 2 yrs, does not have to be better than the veteran who has spent years to improve his play.
Also, players with cheaper contracts have a better chance to displace a veteran who is better, but is playing on a 2nd, more expensive contract. When the teams that win consistently hit a bump let’s say in the road they address that need. They don’t rid themselves of their roster they fix what’s wrong. We didn't and aren't doing that. Call it ego call it they thought our situation was so dire it was what needed doing, don't know?
At this point we are in so deep there is no turning back. We decided 2 years ago now that the roster would be flipped, and we have done just that.
This is a strategy they (this regime) are totally into, and they are following that plan. Young players take about 3 years to develop. What that means is even if they’re not all that to begin with, you commit yourself to their development into their 3rd year after drafting them, even if in the case of the Browns it means you cut players that can help your team win now, and at this juncture are better players.
Our lawyer GM and the Moneyball guy have more say about who is on the roster than the Head Coach. Haslam emphasized that point, naming Sashi Brown as the guy in charge of the 53 man roster.
The Moneyball plan depends heavily on the coaching staff's ability to develop the talent they draft. Will this coaching staff remain together and see the Moneyball plan through..or will Moneyball and the losing discourage them, causing them to leave.
Hue Jackson has one helluva challenge, watching better players booted to the curb...then asked to develop the talent that meets the Moneyball standard.
I deplore the strategy because it means losing while you rebuild. A word I have grown to hate.
There is no doubt that at this point in the Moneyball strategy, "cheaper" is a higher priority than putting the best performing players on the field.
At some point, the guys you drafted who do perform well and who are on rookie contracts are going to want paid...then what? That would be after year 3 or 4...
What do the Browns do, start another Moneyball rebuild ?... letting the best players who are entering their contract year walk, in favor of draft picks to fill their positions, who are a cheaper option?
I can see the Browns Moneyball plan working for "maybe" 3 yrs, until the core of the team is replaced with hopefully better talent from the draft. But at that point, if the Moneyball strategy doesn't morph into a more legit strategy of retaining your best talent, negotiating contracts that keep your best (new core) players, the Moneyball strategy will deteriorate.
If the coaching staff does not buy in and their are mass defections or if players grow tired of Moneyball and want out of Cleveland, the Moneyball strategy is in trouble.
The best operating strategies long term are those that commit to their players, regardless of age and as long as a player produces on the field. Teams that use nearly all of their cap space to retain their own, while drafting young talent where needs are projected.
...Under such systems, there is a sense of "family" where coaches and players "buy in" long term. A sense that everyone, coaches, players, management and ownership are all in this together, all pulling in the same direction.
The Patriots and the Steelers are two of the best franchises in the NFL, at promoting a "family" strategy and it is no surprise, both franchises are longterm WINNERS and multiple SUPER BOWL WINNERS!
I do wonder, what is the goal of the Browns owners, longterm? Being near the top in salary cap available year after year, wins the Browns absolutely NOTHING!
jmho, mac
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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No matter who they kept retained let go it's still another Browns team that will finish in the AFC North last again.
The players they let go were more part of the problem than solution
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Patriots? Family? Not sure what you are watching. Bill starts over every year, and brings in more "mercenaries" than anyone. He's hyper focused on football and doesn't care who you are/the name on the jersey. Their oldest backup OL is 26. Bill lets the Logan Mankins go.
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/fkjZc8B/Bull-Dawg-Sig-smaller.jpg) You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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No matter who they kept retained let go it's still another Browns team that will finish in the AFC North last again.
The players they let go were more part of the problem than solution What an absolute cop out. Not every player is good, not every player is bad on any team ever. This is a team sport, and good can be brought down by bad. So your statement which I have seen before is a cop out, nothing remotely accurate, and if so than we should have fired everyone after a 1-15 season including all the players. We both know that would have been stupid. We do don't we?
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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Here ya go,
Patriots '99 starters
QB - Drew Bledsoe
RB - Terry Allen
FB - Tony Carter
WR - Terry Glenn
WR - Shawn Jefferson
TE - Ben Coates
LT - Bruce Armstrong
LG - Heath Irwin
C - Damien Woody
RG - Todd Rucci
RT - Zefross Moss
DE - Willie McGinest
DE - Brandon Mitchell
DT - Chad Eaton
DT - Henry Thomas
LB - Teddy Bruschi
LB - Andy Katzenmoyer
LB - Chris Slade
CB - Ty Law
CB - Steve Israel
SS - Lawyer Milloy
FS - Chris Carter
K - Adam Vinateri
P - Lee Johnson
Patriots '01 starters
QB - Tom Brady
RB - Antowain Smith
FB - Marc Edwards
WR - Troy Brown
WR - David Patten
TE - Rod Rutledge
LT - Matt Light
LG - Mike Compton
C - Damien Woody
RG - Joe Andruzzi
RT - Greg Randall
DE - Bobby Hamilton
DE - Anthony Pleasant
DT - Brandon Mitchell
DT - Richard Seymour
LB - Roman Phifer
LB - Teddy Bruschi
LB - Mike Vrabel
CB - Ty Law
CB - Otis Smith
SS - Lawyer Milloy
FS - Tebucky Jones
K - Adam Vinateri
P - Ken Walter
WOW! Didn't expect that much change over. In 2 years the only player still starting on Offense was C Damien Woody and on defense the only guys the same were DT Brandon Mitchell (who was moved from DE), LB Teddy Bruschi (who was moved from OLB to MLB), CB Ty Law, and SS Lawyer Milloy.
#gmstrong
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Mac its the course chosen.
As I said I don't care for the way they went about this either.
At this point its water under the bridge and I do understand what they are doing.
Now thats not to say that some of what you said isn't true, in fact it is.
They have indeed done the mud against the wall thing, and it appears some of the mud will indeed stick.
They I believe will get there but its taking longer than it would have had they kept what was working and added more talent to fill the gaps.
I think long term the plan is to retain, but we haven't reached that part of the plan yet, that will come next year and for sure the year after.
The real problem I have is 2 fold #1 I don't like losing and I don't think you stop that by letting good talent go. #2 If you adopt their plan as this is playing out than you also have to realize its a slow process taking years.
I don't have a big bone to pick with their drafts I realize drafts take years to show a return and it looks like the players they have drafted are making that assent. That is the gold standard in my view and on that side I think they get a passing grade.
I like that their sticking with their picks and assume they have done their home work on the player. I also like the fact that they are committed to the player development side which is one of the keys to sustained success.
If Haslim wasn't so damned unstable I would feel pretty good about what we are doing. That said I have little to go on that tells me this will all work out.... But I hope it does...
The key your not going to like is there is no going back and undoing what has been done. Firing this crew would be a mistake like no other..
We may not like it but it sure looks like this is going to play out all the way lets hope it does. Because at this stage we have no other options.
JMHO
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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Willie was most certainly a part of the 01 team so I question the accuracy of this list!!!!
Oh and he was a starter as well I think ????
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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My problem is that I have more faith in my Eyes ( what I see on game day )than their decisions ! lol
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Willie was most certainly a part of the 01 team so I question the accuracy of this list!!!!
Oh and he was a starter as well I think ???? He might have been hurt, he played in 11 games but only started 5 in 2001. Everybody I listed started the majority of the games for the Pats.
Last edited by dawg66; 09/03/17 11:29 AM.
#gmstrong
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Waiver claim period ends in 10 minutes (Noon EST), so we should get a clearer picture shortly. 1PM then should sign some light on the practice squad. Link
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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What you do is you build.
Obviously, keeping your best players..that is not a priority for this front office.
I think the priority for this front office is to build a winning team. Regardless of whatever players fans think are better, I'd say the idea here is to win a Super Bowl. That is the ultimate prize, is it not?
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Interesting. Thank you.
I guess this means we could have almost a completely different team in a few years and win games? Whoa!
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Legend
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The Patriots and the Steelers are two of the best franchises in the NFL, at promoting a "family" strategy and it is no surprise, both franchises are longterm WINNERS and multiple SUPER BOWL WINNERS! Would that be the same Steelers who let Emmanuel Sanders, Joey Porter, Mike Wallace, Rod Woodson, John Kuhn, Kevin Greene, Hardy Nickerson, Mike Vrable, Plaxico Burress, Yancey Thigpen, Clark Haggans, Mike Merriweather, Chad Brown, Santonio Holmes, Levon Kirkland, Greg Lloyd, Franco Harris, and I am sure I am missing more than a few more. Do you mean THOSE Steelers?
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Legend
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So what you are saying is we are damned for eternity in having a mediocre team.
If you don't see a different there is no use discussing cause it just won't be a discussion. Talk to me in football and I'm game but don't pull this crap OH YOU ARE OPTIMISTIC EVERY YEAR SO anything YOU SAY DON'T MATTER. Show me where we are not a better team than a year ago, than 2 years ago than 3 years ago...
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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@JaredKMueller
Following
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Jared Mueller Retweeted German Sea Hawkers
Unlike what I expected, hearing Kasen Williams is a Brown...
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Legend
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Legend
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Kasen Williams
6' 1
220
24 years old
From Seahawks
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Legend
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He's also familiar with Hue (Bengals roster in 2015)
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Kasen Williams
6' 1
220
24 years old
From Seahawks Good news!
1. #GMstrong
2. "I'm just trying to be the best Nick I can be." ~ Nick Chubb
3. Forgive me Elf, I didn’t have faith. ~ Tulsa
4. ClemenZa #1
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Legend
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High motor waiver claimers: Browns claimed 5 guys, Jets claimed 4.
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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Looks like saints got Carr.
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Legend
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Kasen Williams
6' 1
220
24 years old
From Seahawks 
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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Legend
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High motor waiver claimers: Browns claimed 5 guys, Jets claimed 4. Wow, 5 is a lot ... goodbye to Higgins, one of the DL, one of the DB, Rod Johnson to IR ... and one more? Maybe a trade in the works
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Legend
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Looks like we did get Kasen Williams, who I suggest we get in another thread.
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Legend
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As I learned a long time ago in the NFL its all about the talent. thanks Diam...maybe a rare coach does happen along but still its about Talent.
That list of 9 guys from another regime after 2 years is pretty good compared with Rebuilds past.
But the guys we let go were not as young and solid as the talent we decided to keep. 6 of the 9 we are keeping as starters.
Collins
Taylor
Britt
Zeitler
Tretter
So half our Starters are guys already here and FA (or trade)
pick ups.
The rest: Colelman, Duke, Kizer, Shon Coleman,
Garrett, Ogbah, Schobert, Peppers, Kindred, Boughty
are new guys.
And its 10 Keepers and 12 starters as I forgot us keeping Telfer TE from the precious regime and he's starting.
Shon Coleman is the only one I think can use more time in getting his job...the rest are good football players deserved to start.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Dawgs By Nature‏ @DawgsByNature 7s8 seconds ago
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#Browns claimed WR Reggie Davis, DB Michael Jordan, NT T.Y. McGill, WR Kasen Williams, QB Josh Woodrum
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2007
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Browns claimed WR Reggie Davis, DB Michael Jordan, NT T.Y. McGill, WR Kasen Williams, QB Josh Woodrum https://twitter.com/DawgsByNature/status/904387483982540804
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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Legend
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Legend
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Dawgs By Nature‏ @DawgsByNature 49s49 seconds ago
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#Browns claimed WR Reggie Davis, DB Michael Jordan, NT T.Y. McGill, WR Kasen Williams, QB Josh Woodrum
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 73,440 Likes: 603 |
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Boy, that Michael Jordan never gives up, does he? Now its football he wants to try?
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Legend
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Legend
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It's funny to me when people think the plan is to lose. I mean everyone is entitled to their opinion, but wanting to lose? Not in the game plan.
I believe you're speaking in semantics. Maybe it will sound better to you this way..... They may not be planning to lose, but losing is a direct result of their plan. Is that better?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Legend
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The Patriots and the Steelers are two of the best franchises in the NFL, at promoting a "family" strategy and it is no surprise, both franchises are longterm WINNERS and multiple SUPER BOWL WINNERS! Would that be the same Steelers who let Emmanuel Sanders, Joey Porter, Mike Wallace, Rod Woodson, John Kuhn, Kevin Greene, Hardy Nickerson, Mike Vrable, Plaxico Burress, Yancey Thigpen, Clark Haggans, Mike Merriweather, Chad Brown, Santonio Holmes, Levon Kirkland, Greg Lloyd, Franco Harris, and I am sure I am missing more than a few more. Do you mean THOSE Steelers?
How many players leave in one season is not an accurate way to determine whether a team has a sense of family. No doubt, there will be more players leaving at the same time, which is what you are counting.
When the Steelers sign a player to a second contract, it leads to a much more stable roster than what the Browns have had. Haslam likes to say he believes in the Steelers Way, but he sure as hell doesn't know how to copy their model, here in Cleveland.
All you have to do is listen their players talk about a sense of family in Pittsburgh...I've not heard any Browns players speak of that sort of feeling among any Browns teams since Haslam bought the team.
TRY COUNTING HOW MANY OF THE STEELERS PLAYERS ARE OFFERED AND SIGN 2ND CONTRACTS...then we can discuss it.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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