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You can't hide the fact that Charlie was a 3rd round flyer and Quinn was a 1st round pick.
Added to the fact Charlie played ina pass happy MAC and Quinn played in a quality league.
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They do keep stats on all of these things. And I'm sure the more you take into consideration, the clearer picture you will get.
In addition, I think that even with a limited amount of statistical categories to consider, one can derive a general knowledge of a players ability.
If stats were as meaningless as many on this board believe; then why are there so many people that keep track of stats? Why do you pick LT up early in your fantasy draft? Is it a coincidence that the best players in the NFL also have the best stats?
Bottomline, stats are relevant, or else they wouldn't be recorded.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Yeah seriously stats are for LOSERS. Don't all you guys know that they just keep em for nerds to talk about on Monday? I'm pretty sure they just keep score for the sports announcers too. You asked what the criteria to get into the Hall of Fame was, well let me tell you. It's OBVIOUSLY passing the sight and smell test of people who "know the game" like PitDawg. I mean that's all it really takes. So just go with it...the players he likes are Hall of Famers and the players he doesn't just suck...and it's universal knowledge, isn't it? 
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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Quote:
My Wish for the QB Comp
Diam...you sure have "it" bad...real bad!
If Quinn should start, your next thread will be "Will Brady Quinn make the pro bowl this year?"
The sounds of past predictions...and we know how that turned out, don't we?
Diam, I think you have the it worse than Vers had it a few years ago with the last Browns QB competition.
Maybe Quinn will just hold out and lose some valuable training time, come into camp late and end up #3 on depth chart?...could happen...
The real QB competition could be between Frye, Anderson and Dorsey, who knows?
But when fans become so engulfed in love of one player, the team concept of football is easily lost.
Brady Quinn is a good prospect who has a chance to start... 1)..if he learns Chud's new offensive playbook... and...2).. can overcome his lack of on the field experience at the NFL level.
It's that lack of experience that will slow Quinn's progress, IMO.
IMO, only exceptional talent can overcome the lack of NFL game experience.
Is Quinn that talented?
Is Quinn the next Peyton Manning?
Or, is Quinn the next Eli Manning?
Or, maybe the next Phillip Rivers?
Well, I really don't care what Quinn turns out to be, honestly!
I "do care" what kind of "team" the Browns have this year and for years to come.
If Quinn, Frye, Anderson or Dorsey lead this team to wins, playoffs and a Super Bowl..that's all that matters to most "Browns fans", really!
Don't want to rain on your QB competition, but I'm not a Brady Quinn fan, or Frye or Anderson or Dorsey...but I am a Browns fan.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Quote:
If Quinn should start, your next thread will be "Will Brady Quinn make the pro bowl this year?"
::rimshot::
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Don't want to rain on your QB competition, but I'm not a Brady Quinn fan, or Frye or Anderson or Dorsey...but I am a Browns fan.
Best post ever on this board. 
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Quote:
Quinn played in a quality league.
What league would that be?
#gmstrong
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A general reply to the "stat happy". If a great QB gets on a crappy team,does he still "look great"? Does he still put up HOF numbers? No,he doesn't. Does he get his just dues? Or is he criticized because his "stats" don't measure up? And yes. Using a stat sheet means you can "read the game" off a sheet of paper without really knowing much about the "game" at all. That's why "great talent evaluaters" are far more rare than sports writers!  A QB is "one man of an eleven man team". Not the entire O. If you want to compare the two QB's? Bring ALL the stats of their perspective O's. Not just stats on "one player" (the QB) from two seperate teams,and expect that to hold water. It doesn't. If it does? You might want to look at Jon Kitna's "stats" and tell me how much better he is than some rated below him. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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THAT'S why stats are for losers. A QB is one guy in an 11 man offense. You may fool some of these kids around here with that stuff. But not people that "know the game".
Sorry, stats can be very useful. Sure when people cherry pick certain stats it can distort the picture. I feel you need to look at stats as part of the overall picture. They do tell a story and to dismiss them out of hand is silly.
You mean to tell me that people who "know the game" don't use stats? I find that very hard to believe.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quinn played in a quality league.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What league would that be?
GGD ....
Gods Golden Dome 
I'm catholic so saying that is ok..... 
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Quote:
Quote:
Quinn played in a quality league.
What league would that be?
I thought it was quite obvious
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Quote:
Also, what do you judge a player on besides stats?
are u looking for an answer other than HOW THEY ACTUALY PLAY ON THE FIELD???? I JUDGE PLAYERS SOLELY BASED ON HOW THEY PLAY ON THE FIELD ...
but then again i UNDERSTAND THE GAME ...
some CLASSIC EXAMPLES OF HOW DECIEVING STATS ARE ....
1. Franco Harris .. his STATS say he is an ALLTIME GREAT ... well anyone with a clue knows he was a MIDDLE OF THE ROAD RB IN A GREAT SITUATION ... same with Terry Bradshaw ... Pit brought up Archie Manning .. he was a MUCH MUCH BETTER QB THAN BRADSHAW .. but Stats say it was the other way around ..
2. Look at BQ and Frye .. if STATS are that IMOPRTANT ... why was BQ taken in rnd 1 and Frye in Rnd 3 .. SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE OTHER WAY AROUND SHOULDNT IT HAVE BEEN????
I ALWAYS BACK up my stances with FOOTBALL TALK AND REASONS FOR MY OPINIONS .... in this case .. I have rehashed both BQ and Frye ad nausem .. and i am not going to say the same thing for the 500th time ... my limit is 499 .. *LOL* ..
u can go ahead and be LIED to by your STATS ..... and when STATS are PRESENTED PROPERLY they are a VERY USEFUL TOOL .. problem is no one on here HARDLY EVER USES THEM PROPERLY ...
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No P.
What I'm saying is,taking QB stats from two QB's,on two seperate teams and using that in and of itself to base your complete arguement upon is useless.
Just look at the talent posessed by Archie Manning. (an example I used earlier)
Now if you just based evaluating him on his stats against a QB on a GOOD team,without factoring in the rest of their perspective offensive players,would you arrive at a fair asessment?
That's my point. Is it "one factor" in an overall picture? Yes it is. But it's not even close to being worthy of basing an overall annalysis on.
Which is exactly what's trying to be done here. I stated an entire list of stats that would help form a more balanced and fair asessment. But when it's to "seperate teams" how can anyone call it a "fair comparison" on so few stats based only upon the QB alone?
It's not. Not even close...................
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
and when STATS are PRESENTED PROPERLY they are a VERY USEFUL TOOL .. problem is no one on here HARDLY EVER USES THEM PROPERLY ...
Take for instance this stat, GM & I have 4 cases of beer to drink, one would figure out we each drank 2 cases, easy stat. Add Shotty and one would figure ew now only have 1.33 cases each between us three, False, Since Shotty lives in Vagas and starts drinking at 9:00 am everyday, that only leaves GM & I a 12pack each.....SHOTTY..See how stats lie
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My thoughts on what I want from the QB competition. Well, Uh, Ooohh, Er, Ugh, Aaahhh, D'OH, *&!$#%*, Um, Arrrrgggghhhh! Ok, seriously, first of all, I believe Quinn will hold out but it will only be a week or so at most. So this may not really hurt his learning but I don't think he will start the season at all. I think either Frye or Anderson will start. If Frye starts and does not do well by midseason, then Anderson will take over. I really feel that the Browns know they don't have a complete proven winner on the field and it would make matters more complicated to throw a rookie QB in the mix at this point. However, once we reach the 10-12 game point of the season, if we are no longer in the hunt for post season play, then I'd say BQ will be allowed to get his feet wet and, to me, that would be good. The only way BQ does not see the field at all this season, is if Frye or Anderson (as well as the rest of the team) play well and heavily contend for the post season. IMO, not likely, but ya never know? Hope is a good thing, maybe the only good thing and a truly good thing never dies. So here's hopin the Browns go deep into the playoffs and even make the S.B., though that would most definitely create a QB controversy but a good one! Anyways, I really expect to see BQ on the field come late season! For now, I think it's best he sits and either Frye or Anderson start. Also, Joe T. needs to start day 1. so the OL can gel and Joe T. can get the NFL experience he needs. The other reason I say Quinn should sit for now, is that if he comes in with an OL that has not worked together long enough to gel, then this increases the chance for serious injury. Now I know he will face possible injury once he is the full time starter (if he becomes the starter) but if the OL has time to gel then this IMO, decreases his chance of injury.
Last edited by Rabidfan; 07/17/07 04:23 PM.
![[Linked Image from i89.photobucket.com]](http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k233/marctheshark1969/thrandelelisafaggot.jpg)
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Passing Rushing Sacked Fumbles Situation G QBRat Comp Att Pct Yds Y/G Y/A TD Int Rush Yds Y/G Avg TD Sack YdsL Fum FumL When Ahead 8 61.9 50 86 58.1 575 0.0 6.7 2 5 17 64 0.0 3.8 1 15 86 2 2 When Tied 11 94.1 42 55 76.4 394 0.0 7.2 1 1 8 33 0.0 4.1 0 9 51 2 1
When Behind 12 70.9 160 251 63.7 1485 0.0 5.9 7 11 22 118 0.0 5.4 2 20 125 4 4 This stat does tell me something. It tells me when the game is tied Charlie is more careful with the ball. When ahead he tends to be careless. Now I don't have a complete breakdown of every play but there is enough info here to show me he has trouble when he has a lead. Insted of being more conservative he tends to push to much. You can disect every given play but when he has 5 int. in 86 attempts that's just not good. If you contrast that with his numbers when he is behind he looks better in my eyes. You expect him to be pushing and the defense to really key on him. His int ratio is actually much lower. Passing Rushing Sacked Fumbles Situation G QBRat Comp Att Pct Yds Y/G Y/A TD Int Rush Yds Y/G Avg TD Sack YdsL Fum FumL
Wide Right 13 67.4 67 127 52.8 731 0.0 5.8 4 4 23 138 0.0 6.0 2 4 7 0 0 Right 13 86.5 60 73 82.2 467 0.0 6.4 1 2 6 36 0.0 6.0 1 6 57 2 2
Middle 13 85.9 25 37 67.6 264 0.0 7.1 1 1 15 22 0.0 1.5 0 24 147 5 4 Left 13 50.4 48 78 61.5 404 0.0 5.2 3 7 1 2 0.0 2.0 0 9 51 1 1
Wide Left 12 78.3 52 77 67.5 588 0.0 7.6 1 3 2 17 0.0 8.5 0 1 0 0 0 I can figure out from this stat that he favors throwing to the outside on his right side. Considering that he rolls out a ton it makes alot of sense. His completion ratio is also way down so the fact that he is running for his life many throws are of the mark. Also by looking at the throws to the left side he is much more accurate. Probably because he is sitting in the pocket with time to throw. Now the int. are really high to the left. Could that possibly be because he tends to throw accross his body at times while running? Having a lack of good arm strength and foolish decisions can contribute to this. plus the fact he seems to throw to Braylon a lot when looking left?  Now watching the games is important to put these stats in context. I think it is much easier to figure out where he gets in trouble with these stats. They backup opinions. http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7243/situational;_ylt=Ak1whL0ZH4y2UYRJnaAZlKf.uLYF
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Which is exactly what's trying to be done here. I stated an entire list of stats that would help form a more balanced and fair asessment. But when it's to "seperate teams" how can anyone call it a "fair comparison" on so few stats based only upon the QB alone?
It can't be done. You can look at more in depth stats for each QB on their given team to paint a picture but you can never compare the two.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
It can't be done. You can look at more in depth stats for each QB on their given team to paint a picture but you can never compare the two.
Sort of like what I posted on this thread a little "further up the page" P?
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Do you have any stats regarding how well each of their respective OL's played? Sacks,hurries? How many "drops" are credited to their WR's during their college carrers? How about their respective running games? Or are those "non factors" in the views of you guys?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quinn played in a quality league.
What league would that be?
I thought it was quite obvious
Notre Dame is an INDEPENDENT in Football. The Army, Navy, and Air Force Acadamies don't constitute a League.... not even when you put them in with Stanford, Purdue, Michigan State, USC, Georgia Tech and Michigan.... 
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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If Frye starts and does not do well by midseason, then Anderson will take over. I really feel that the Browns know they don't have a complete proven winner on the field and it would make matters more complicated to throw a rookie QB in the mix at this point.
I think that's what the whole QB competition is. Frye or Anderson? Quinn and Dorsey are out of the mix. Quinn, the only reason he is in the QB talks is because he was a first-round QB. IMO. And in recent 1st round QB's they have started there rookie year. (Alex Smith, Eli Manning, Drew Brees..) Some may not have started at Week 1 but they eventually got in there. That's why there is some speculation that Quinn might start because of the recent history of the other 1st round QB's.
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I would agree with you...but having BQ start in week 8 would mean Frye is sucking....i hope that is not the case....i hope we do decent this year...then just have BQ start next season....
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I would agree with you...but having BQ start in week 8 would mean Frye is sucking....i hope that is not the case....i hope we do decent this year...then just have BQ start next season....
Even if we make the playoffs with Frye/Anderson, or one of them makes the Pro Bowl.... *L*
( Hey Bartender.... Give me another drink.... I don't think I'm drunk enough yet.... Buurrrrpppp....)
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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Quote:
)...Jacksonville was hot after Frye on the 1st and 2nd day of the draft, but Savage thought the price was too low. Atlanta has also called Cleveland about available QBs...so....
Mav, help me out here, is that some inside info,,, Because I don't remember any of that being public knowledge... If it's inside,, that's cool,,, Just tell me so I don't go nuts looking for confirmation
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Completion percentages - College Career
63.6% - Frye - (913 completions, 1436 Pass Attempts), 7.7 yards per attempt
58.0% - Quinn - (929 completions, 1602 Pass Attempts), 7.3 yards per attempt
And according to Diam, Quinn had the greatest coach of all-time coaching him.
If u wanna go STATS...Let's get em' right...
Year 1---NO WEIS---47.3%---9 TD---15 INT---93.5 Rating
Year 2---NO WEIS---54.1%---17 TD---10 INT---125.87
Year 3---WEIS---64.9%---32 TD---7 INT---158.40 ( I HATE COLLEGE QB RATINGS)
Year 4---WEIS---61.9%---37 TD---7 INT---146.65
Go Browns!!!
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All Pro
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Quote:
Quote:
)...Jacksonville was hot after Frye on the 1st and 2nd day of the draft, but Savage thought the price was too low. Atlanta has also called Cleveland about available QBs...so....
Mav, help me out here, is that some inside info,,, Because I don't remember any of that being public knowledge... If it's inside,, that's cool,,, Just tell me so I don't go nuts looking for confirmation
That wasn't inside info it was on ESPN during the draft.
Someone wanted to know what kind of rushing support Frye and Quinn received in college
Frye
Couldn't find it - As a freshman
3.9 ypc - As a sophomore
4.0 ypc - As as junior
2.8 ypc - As a senior
Quinn
4.0 ypc - As a freshman
3.3 ypc - As a sophomore
3.6 ypc - As a junior
3.9 ypc - As a senior
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Quote:
Quote:
Completion percentages - College Career
63.6% - Frye - (913 completions, 1436 Pass Attempts), 7.7 yards per attempt
58.0% - Quinn - (929 completions, 1602 Pass Attempts), 7.3 yards per attempt
And according to Diam, Quinn had the greatest coach of all-time coaching him.
If u wanna go STATS...Let's get em' right...
Year 1---NO WEIS---47.3%---9 TD---15 INT---93.5 Rating
Year 2---NO WEIS---54.1%---17 TD---10 INT---125.87
Year 3---WEIS---64.9%---32 TD---7 INT---158.40 ( I HATE COLLEGE QB RATINGS)
Year 4---WEIS---61.9%---37 TD---7 INT---146.65
My exact point, what's Quinn going to do with out the 'greatest coach to ever walk the face of the earth' according to Diam.
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That wasn't inside info it was on ESPN during the draft.
Oh,,, Well, we all know how reliable ESPN is.. in other words, take it with a grain of salt.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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If Jacksonville was so hot after Frye, why didn't they take Quinn? 
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Stats are not for losers. In point of fact, only fans of lousy teams say that. Stats are very relevant as a guide for judging players and teams. As far as annointing Brady our next HOFer, I think I'll wait until he's actually played in a real NFL game. Which may not be until next year. No matter what Diam Quinn says........
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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He'll be horrible. Like another overrated Domer named Rick Mirer.
I don't like the golden boy at all.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Would you drop the Rick Mirer thing already? Brady Quinn and Rick Mirer are nothing alike..
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Quote:
He'll be horrible. Like another overrated Domer named Rick Mirer.
I don't like the golden boy at all.
Way to support your team. If/When Brady Quinn becomes a good NFL QB, there's not going to be any room left on the Brady Quinn bandwagon
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Quote:
He'll be horrible. Like another overrated Domer named Rick Mirer.
I don't like the golden boy at all.
What if he turns out to be another Joe Montana,,, would you still hate Domers then?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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This is all so tiring. Frye will start day one, and barring injury the whole season. If not, I'll eat my hat.
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Quote:
If Jacksonville was so hot after Frye, why didn't they take Quinn?
Because they already have one highly paid QB and are hoping to bring in another guy to compete for the job without having to pay a ton.... Who is to say if Jacksonville brought in Frye (or cullpepper for that matter) that he would be the starter?? More likely it's just more competition for their current two guys
<><
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I love the browns. I hate BQ.
The jury is still out on him. We'll see how it all turns out. Give it a few years and we'll know just what kind of player he is.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Stats are not for losers. In point of fact, only fans of lousy teams say that. Stats are very relevant as a guide for judging players and teams.
If you accumaulate ALL the stats,you can get a pretty accurate picture. But you can't "cherry pick" a stat here and a stat there and claim to be presenting an accurat picture. You can't compare two QB's on different teams without breaking down their supporting cast (team stats) either. If you read through the thread you'll see that's been my point all along. You would have to break down the stats of the OL,RB,WR's and the QB so to look at the entire O of each players team to "accuratly" compare the to by any reasonable measure.
And in case you missed it,I was using Archie Manning as a prime exmple,and I've never been a Saints fan. Are you suggesting that Archie Manning should have met the same measure of success as Terry Bradshaw? Manning was playing for the lowly Saints while Bradshaw was playing for the Steelers. The "supporting cast" has a lot to do with it. Or do you measure the success of one man based on the play of eleven?
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As far as annointing Brady our next HOFer, I think I'll wait until he's actually played in a real NFL game. Which may not be until next year. No matter what Diam Quinn says........
Woah there big fella! You're barking up the wrong tree!
I DO think he is "the most athleticly gifted QB we have". But that has very little to do with being a "franchise QB" in the NFL. I just don't like seeing the kid sent to the slaughterhouse by a "few" posters based on only a "few stats" that seem to further their agenda.
If somebody wants to do a comprehensive breakdown of each of their perspective offenses and strength of schedule,I'll be more than happy to give it a fair shot. But why don't you look at what they're basing their arguement on and all the variables that aren't being considered into the equasion first?
I think it's pretty easy to see what I'm saying here.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,718
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,718 |
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This stat does tell me something. It tells me when the game is tied Charlie is more careful with the ball. When ahead he tends to be careless.
Now I don't have a complete breakdown of every play but there is enough info here to show me he has trouble when he has a lead. Insted of being more conservative he tends to push to much. You can disect every given play but when he has 5 int. in 86 attempts that's just not good.
Those stats tell you no such thing, you are INFERRING the information from raw numbers.
Did those 5 INTs bounce off of his receiver's hands/chest before being picked?
Not to speak for him, but I believe this is why Diam is advocating watching and evaluating on performance rather than looking at stats and assuming things that may or may not be there.
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Wide Right 13 67.4 67 127 52.8 731 0.0 5.8 4 4 23 138 0.0 6.0 2 4 7 0 0
Right 13 86.5 60 73 82.2 467 0.0 6.4 1 2 6 36 0.0 6.0 1 6 57 2 2
Middle 13 85.9 25 37 67.6 264 0.0 7.1 1 1 15 22 0.0 1.5 0 24 147 5 4
Left 13 50.4 48 78 61.5 404 0.0 5.2 3 7 1 2 0.0 2.0 0 9 51 1 1
Wide Left 12 78.3 52 77 67.5 588 0.0 7.6 1 3 2 17 0.0 8.5 0 1 0 0 0
I can figure out from this stat that he favors throwing to the outside on his right side. Considering that he rolls out a ton it makes alot of sense. His completion ratio is also way down so the fact that he is running for his life many throws are of the mark.
Also by looking at the throws to the left side he is much more accurate. Probably because he is sitting in the pocket with time to throw. Now the int. are really high to the left. Could that possibly be because he tends to throw accross his body at times while running? Having a lack of good arm strength and foolish decisions can contribute to this.
You can't erase memories from your brain.....would you reach these same conclusions by looking at these numbers from an unknown QB, or are you reaching these conclusions based on the numbers AS WELL AS THE FACT that you witnessed these actual events??? 
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All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 373 |
These are the only guys I've looked up so far. If you want any other college player let me know.
Career Completion Percentages in College
65.49% - Ben Roethlisberger
64.82% - Matt Leinart
63.58% - Charlie Frye
63.53% - Philip Rivers
62.49% - Peyton Manning
62.31% - Tom Brady
61.86% - JaMarcus Russell
57.99% - Brady Quinn
50.69% - Derek Anderson
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 79,246 |
Highest Completion Percentage, Career (1,500 attempts) 65.68 Kurt Warner, St. Louis, 1998-2003; N.Y. Giants, 2004; Arizona, 2005 (2,340-1,537) 65.02 Marc Bulger, St. Louis, 2002-05 (1,518-987) 64.37 Daunte Culpepper, Minnesota, 1999-2005 (2,607-1,678) According to "stats" these are the three most accurate passers for a year of any NFL QB's. Do any of these guys even RATE in your top three QB's of all time? That's what stats can do. Be very misleading. http://www.nfl.com/history/randf/records/indiv/passingThat's why you would have to have a complete breakdown of both Quinn and Fryes repsctive offenses,strength nof schedule and much more to constitue any amount of accuracy in an asessment. And that's not a stat,that's a fact. See,the "stat game" isn't that hard to play.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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