DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer

Posting this twice....Kizer will only get better if we hire an experienced OC. The play calling for the deer-in-the-headlights rookie is absolutely horrible!!!

I don't buy that. That's bunk.

The first time Hogan came in was when Kize had a headache. That was what, 2nd qtr? 2nd team players weren't playing, and our gameplan didn't change, so there was nothing for the D to adjust.

Last week, some 2nd team players were in, but it still had 1st team defenders on the field. Again, it's not like we starting running wildcat. Our O stayed the same, thus no adjustments. were needed.

Also note, those 2nd team players who were in didn't just jump on the field when Hogan entered. Kize was playing against them as well.

Hogan moves the ball. Kizer doesn't. Why? I don't really care why. I just care that he does and Kize doesn't.

Complete garbage.

I would not say Kizer has been good. He has been as expected. I am more angry at the fact that people always write a guy off after only a few games into their career. Especially ones who have a talent base like Kizer.

21 year olds are not going to be a good NFL QB at the start. They just do not play that well. HOWEVER, I have seen enough that if he improves, he is a real NFL Starter.

Unlike Kevin Hogan.

Explain why Hogan has no chance to be a "real" NFL starter. I am curious.

Not very accurate, average arm, not that big, long wind up. He is 24 years old and has never really been a great starter. He was ok in college, not great.

So, no elite traits and not great college production almost always does not equal NFL starter.

Bogus.

I'm one of the lucky ones to have seen it both times.

I disagree. Hogan has a good arm. He can spin the ball. Kizer might have more, but not enough to be a WOW factor between the two.

You act like 24 is old or something. Hogan has never been given a chance as a starter.


In college, the only real stats we can compare, and I am only comparing statistical percentages since Hogan played longer. I am not going to compare Hogans 75 TD's to 29 picks as an example to Kizers 47-19.


Both are 6'4" tall. Kizer 233, Hogan 218. Kizer might be a shade taller. Hogan might really be 6'3" and something.

Kizer completed 60.7 % of his passes. Hogan 65.9%.

Hogan averaged 8.5 yards per completion.

Kizer 8.4.

Kizers career QB rating was 147.7

Hogans was 154.4

Both these guys started as Freshman. Kizer at Notre Dame, Hogan at Stanford. Both quality schools and both play big time football.

Would you be upset if Hogan turned out to be "our guy"?

The team looks much better with Hogan under center.. It's hard to deny that.

While I am not nearly ready to kick DK to the curb, if he keeps stinking it up we'll reach a point where we HAVE to give Kevin a shot. Maybe we aren't there yet, but we are fast approaching it.

If that destroys DK's confidence, then he's toast anyway. He wouldn't be the first QB to get benched as a rookie, learn from it, stop pressing and improve over time.

Look.........I don't think we should bench Kizer. I also am not ready to give up on him. I knew it would be a long process w/a kid who never even had a snap count at ND.

However, I think you are overrating him and underrating Hogan.

I think it is way, way too early to tell if either guy will be good or bad.

I think it would be best to keep an open mind rather than drawing some dumb line in the sand.

I agree, and like you I am not kicking Kizer to the curb. He is a learning kid. I just am not kicking Hogan to the curb either. He is a learning kid as well.

Where I come from, the best player plays. You don't just hand out jobs, but from where I sit, it looks like that is what has happened. Kizer just isn't ready as I see it. This doesn't mean we cut him or anything like that. He can still prevail, but right now, IMO, he can't win us games.

I am going to the game next week. I will watch him closely. We will see how it goes. Right now, winning A game is pretty important for everybody We need to put it all in to this one.

Things are going to go WAY,WAY South if we don't win this one.

Seems like a good policy to follow, at this point.

I just refuse to give up on Kizer, who has the chance to be a special player for a dime a dozen Matt Cassel clone.

Very open-minded of you.

I am not giving up on him. He just isn't ready, and on the flip side, I am not giving up on Hogan.

Then you better break out your parka.

I just wonder if taking a week off to watch the game from the sideline and reset himself would do Kizer some good.

Right now we have a problem at both QB and WR.

I knew going into this that DK couldn't make the reads and tried to caution everyone about it, (I believe Vers did too) but everyone was screaming to throw the kid out there and see what the kid can do. So this is what we get, a cake that is half baked. You guys were the ones saying that he couldn't learn on the practice field.

That's the difference between KH and DK right now. KH can make his read progressions at the time he is supposed to make them. That means he is throwing the ball when it is supposed to be thrown to WR at the spot he is supposed to be.

The team can't take DK to the side during practice and work on read progressions because he has to be in with the ones working on the next game-plan.

Could we get an extra win or two with KH? probably. But what good does that do? We would still be drafting another QB next year in that case. Better to keep DK in and hope that he eventually improves on progressions, then to put in a QB that won't be the starter next year anyway.

I am a bit frustrated that I did not see Leslie in the game more.

Frankly I would have Benched Britt early in the game and gone with others

The drops only reinforce the ineptness of the team. I hate drops.

Hue Jackson was asked about benching Britt and he said that they couldn't do it because of injuries.

I understand your line of thought. Can't say I disagree except a few extra wins will do a lot for the players on the team. It will do a lot for the coaching staff. It will do a lot for the owner and fans.

I always have 2 in my back pocket. I don't care what the weather report says. In this case it looks like maybe a few drops early Sunday morning, but by kick sunny and 77 degrees. Was hoping for maybe cloudy and 55 degrees.

I hope I can cheer the team. I really don't like to boo them, but at some point you have to let them know they aren't getting it done.

I usually stick it out most of the game. I spend too much money and drive too far to leave games at the half.

It's just frustrating.

Peen, if you're expecting a win, I'd probably not make the trip.

Put it this way. We are the 32nd ranked team out of 32. But that doesn't really tell the story. If there were 50 teams in the league, we'd be 50. The gap between the other 31 teams and the Browns is immense.

Until it isn't

This statement says a lot about the current state of the Browns, until it doesn't...

This is the youngest, most inexperienced of the 32 teams, and the gap is immense...

The experience that each player gets each week, shortens the learning curve, which will pull this roster closer to the other 31 by the week.

I don't expect it to happen overnight, or even this week, but little things will start clicking and it will be less of a thought process at the line of scrimmage and more of a reaction to the read. Once that happens, there will be less costly penalties and a flow will begin to take over the game in our favor.

I expect this team to be competing around the bye week. After that, it should start to come together. Everyone is learning on both sides of the ball together. We aren't filled with veterans that have been in the system for years and have young guys sprinkled in or taking over for injured players...we have young guys filling in for young injured players. This is still our training camp, while other teams get to simply game plan.

It couldn't have been more evident from a bad Bengals team. That is the difference between two bad teams right now, experience.

The Browns have youth on their side, they have a passion to get it corrected and once they start to put the pieces together the puzzle will start to look like a picture.

I'm so stoked for the potential of a future Carson Wentz vs. Deshaun Watson Super Bowl.

Just imagining the threads and posts leading up to that...

This week I sat down and re-watched the game film of the first four starts, really keying in on Kizer, and I've come away from that with a new-found optimism that had faded significantly faster than usual.

While the consistency of his issues remains glaring, they were consistently issues that are corrected in time for the vast majority of rookie quarterbacks with his level of talent.

The most important thing, for me, is that he's not being overly restricted in terms of what he is being asked to do. I like Hue Jackson providing Kizer with the opportunity to both succeed and fail: This isn't a gimmick offense designed to mask Kizer's flaws, similar to RG3 in Washington. Simply said; what can go wrong, is going wrong, but at least we've got a fair idea of what we have to work with.

At this stage, what I'm seeing in terms of his struggles are very similar to what I saw last year from Jared Goff. The game is too fast for him, but it isn't overwhelmingly so. He has anticipation and knows what he's doing but he isn't trusting it: windows in the NFL close as fast as they open, and he needs to trust what he's seeing to get the ball out at reactionary pace rather than one of thought. Too often I feel like he's seeing what he needs to see, but then second guesses and seeks to confirm. It sounds overly complicated for a process that takes only a fraction of a second, but in the NFL it makes all the difference. I'm sure we've all seen what could aptly be described as a 'micro-hesitation' in his game. That instance in which we can see he wants to pull the trigger but isn't doing so.

The majority of the shortcomings, in my opinion, all stem as a result of that. It is understandable, in my opinion. He's a rookie, and these receivers would be giving him trust issues.

The numbers look so bad against him right now but I like what I'm seeing from Kizer in terms of what he is reading on the field. Three of his interceptions have come off the hands of a receiver (Two Britt, one Johnson, although the tipped interception against Baltimore was admittedly behind Britt) and one was a desperate final-play heave, that against Indy. That's half his interceptions that aren't really a big deal - worst still, all three of the drop/tip interceptions came in a scoring position.

Kizer also had an amazing play in which he threw and interception to Webb against Baltimore when targeting Higgins in the endzone: On the film (reverse angle) you could see he noticed the SS break on the throw so, mid-throwing motion, he tried to adjust the pass to be what I would guess avoided leading Higgins and being more 'on' Higgins. Naturally, that leads to inaccuracy, and the pass was so far behind it got picked. So I feel like that was an inaccurate pass resulting from panicking on a solid read: Not what we want, but an encouraging sign, because he'll get to that stage in which he trusts himself on the initial read and he won't panic at a safety moving.

I also feel like he's been much improved these last two weeks. The numbers aren't showing it, but that's my opinion. The defense having two atrocious 2nd quarters in back-to-back weeks has derailed that progress gaining any momentum.

A friend once said to me that rookie quarterbacks struggle with instinct because what is "open" in the NFL is a "Why the hell would you try and make that throw?" comment from your coach in college. I feel like we can see Kizer knows what he should be doing, and he's feeling it, but isn't stepping in to it with confidence and poise that we see from the elite quarterbacks in this league.

Much as we've seen with Jared Goff, I think Kizer is going to find that speed and build that trust. I have my doubts we'll ever see it with much consistency this year, but I am feeling a lot more confident with him than I typically would with a quarterback who has a 50.9 passer rating.

Based on what I've seen, that film has a very good chance of saving Hue's job. He sits down with Jimmy and points out all the plays there for the taking that aren't being made, there is no question the offense is presenting opportunity by design, the execution is where the failure is seeping through.

That was a very good post. It comes across as intelligent and logical. I hope you post more.

The one thing I disagree w/is the anticipation thing. It is my belief that his "anticipation" is lacking and it is the biggest reason why he is holding onto the ball for so long.

The good news is we will find out week to week what we have in Kizer. The bad news is we will lose games and folks aren't going to be happy. I wonder how many fans will show up for the Jets...

I agree with everything you just wrote. Kizers accuracy is not very good and that is a big problem. If you look at Watson, on the other hand, it is night and day. Watsons footwork is stellar. OOPs, Sashi missed on him!

Agreed.

I personally believe the frustration is predominantly due to the early games being perceived as the "winnable" games of the season, but in my opinion it is the second half of the season that will mean the most; Not only more time for the team to come together, gain experience and correct mistakes, but more importantly it will give us insight to the mental fortitude of the team. If (Okay, when) we reach a point of having nothing to play for, I want to see the guys playing like it still matters.

This is such a big game, however. A few early wins would really take the pressure off. Starting 0-5, however, would be a disaster.

The Jets are a good team. It shouldn't have surprised as many people as it did. They've hit year three with their coaching staff, which is about when the team takes that step from being a collection of individual talent to a collective unit with individual talent offering different strengths. Unfortunately for Kizer, their defense is their strength. Tied 7th in the league in passing yards against, 9th in the league in passer rating against, tied 6th best in interceptions. On the bright side, they have given up an average of 23 points per game, 7 passing touchdowns and only have six sacks, all of which are amongst the worst.

It is interesting given a lot of what they do is good or bad, but not a whole lot of intermediate. It would be a worthy confidence boost to come out and play well for Kizer. The Jets don't have the most talent but they're certainly playing well.

I desperately hope the fans turn out. I completely understand that we're tired of the losing, but we know all-too-well how it felt to not have the Browns at all. I'd give anything to see a packed stadium in support of our guys. It'd be great for Kizer to have that break out game.

I thought Sipes was 47 mph. No?

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

The most favorite player on The Cleveland Browns since 1999 has been the back up QB.

Until they make him the starter and the opponents game plan for the back up. Then people see they are garbage and they shut the hell up.

This situation in no different. When people refuse to learn from history they are doomed to repeat it.

Haven't posted in awhile.

I think judgement of Kizer should be viewed with the caveat that he really shouldn't be starting.

This team was talent starved at WR and that was before Coleman got hurt. I was dead wrong about Britt. Based on his production in bad situation w/ Rams I expected him to at least bring the same production to the Browns....but thus far that seems dead effing wrong.

And the loss of Coleman is crippling, he at least showed the flashes of developing into an explosive WR.

But back to the point. Kizer is talented but raw as hell. It was evident in college, it was evident in preseason. Hopefully he has the right demeanor to handle this lack of success. And hopefully he can continue to learn amidst all this. Only time will tell.
But I don't think the kid deserves to get beat up over his play when most accepted that he is learning on the job when he should be sitting due to circumstances.

I am getting ready to drive 586 miles to my hotel to go.

Sorry Rish, I always expect to win no matter what we are talking about.

I go to Cleveland because I love the Browns and the city, my hometown. If the Browns can't do it, I'll still have a victory meal at a great restaurant and win at the dinner table. I'll win by just standing on Huntington Beach, in Bay Village where I grew up and be a winner.

I am at the age where walking down memory lane is important to me. From time to time I meet up with old classmates still in the area. There is something special about giving a big hug to a person you have known for 55-60 years.

That is where my head is at. I love the Browns, make no mistake, but to see a person you went to school with since 4th grade.....that's awesome.