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Quinn contract effects the whole league in the draft next year. The Browns have to be careful or every GM in the NFL will be P.O.d at em. Thats where the creative stuff comes in.
I dont think the Browns are concerned about the other GM's in the league...
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As I said earlier....I understand the process....I just think it silly.
Maybe it would be better if the league dictated that players not under contract could not participate in mini-camps..
Then we would start seeing guys signed in may.
I have no doubt we will sign all of our picks. I doubt any will enter nest years draft.
But any way you cut it, we have failed to sign our top picks, thus, we have failed.
Hoop.....if all the other GMs and owners get mad....maybe there really is collusion by the owners when it comes to wages.
The way I see it, we have the same cap figure as anyone else.
How we choose to slice it up really isn't another teams business.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I dont think the Browns are concerned about the other GM's in the league...
But they are and they have to be.
Contracts negotiations start based on the slot a player is drafted in and how much money the player in that slot last year got in his contract. The general basis is lasts years salary at that slot plus x% in addition.
For Joe Thomas for instance, they will start at what the player drafted at the number 3 slot last season received and increase that a bit. They would also love to have the advantage of picks 2,4,5,6 already signed so they can base Thomas's contract on what those around him received.
In Quinn's case, they wil look at the salary of the number 22 slot from last season and start from there. If the Browns were to pay Quinn, say, slot 10 money because they value him so much and want to get him into camp on time what would happen is NEXT season every pick higher than 22 would want more money than the 22 slot received the previous season. That means next season slots 11 through 21 would get more than the slot 10 player got the season before. That raises everything from 23 on down as well.
If the Browns gave Quinn twice the guaranteed money last season's number 22 recieved, then next season the number 22 slot would START from there and evey pick higher than that would be astronomical in guaranteed money. No one above 22 would accept less guaranteed money than 22 got last season.
That upsets the whole apple cart of negotiations not only for next season but forever as it raises the salaries substantially for the top 2/3's of the first round. It would cause all teams a LOT more money next season and into the future since they will base next seasons salaries on this season's contracts.
If the Browns are forced to give Quinn a lot more money than he would otherwise get at the number 22 slot they will have to, as Hoop said, be very creative in the incentives included and how they are structured.
Can you see what happens and why the rest of the GM's, the entire league for that matter, would be not only upset at the Browns, but that the Browns would have upset the entire salary structure? It would catapault it with increases in salary that wouldn't have otherwise occured for several years in the future.
Not only would the rest of the league be upset with Cleveland, but Savage would have effectively shot HIMSELF in the foot for next season's salary contract negotiations.
So they tip-toe and posture and wait for the last minute to be sure they are getting the best deal.
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Vince Young, last years #3 signed for 58 mil.....25 of which is guaranteed.
That is our starting point?...
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Not exactly sure I follow your logic on the Hoop... Quinn was a late 1st round pick,, why or how does that affect what happens next season... I'm just missing something aren't I 
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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GM's generally don't care about how their rookie signings affect teams at future slots. The NFL is about competition, and the more you make another team sign a rookie for, the less money they have on the cap.
Prime example is the Philip Rivers contract. His deal trickled down and since he was #4 pick, that was in essence a #1, he got more than the average #4. Then the next year, Benson held out for more jack in an attempt to get the average increase from the year before (around 8 to 10%), and it backfired (he got I think like 6%).
If I'm a GM, I hope I'm screwing over another GM...holdouts are good for your enemies.
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Just clicking...
Yes I'm worried, but it'll all start to come together in the next few days.
Everyone saying "Quinn's not that important, he won't start anyway" is kidding themselves. Even if he's not starting, every snap he takes is important because he will be starting sooner rather than later.
I have to agree with ya here dawg,, WE HAVE TO GET THESE GUYS SIGNED,... Not one more then the other, but atleast the top 3.., yes, even McDonald.. He's a sleeper, and there is room back there for him.. To me, this is the most aggrivating time of the year..
Not signing is one thing, but not showing your face the first day of camp is very,very bad.. You already have a mark on your back, and really have to dig very deep to get the coaches on your side again.. It's a lose-lose situation, for the player and the TEAM.. But also, these are big parts of the puzzle.. We drafted Joe because, well we need him,LOL.. We drafted Quinn, because we really dont have a QB, go figure.. And the defensive back field isn't Wright either, so we brought him here to do some work.. It isn't like we dont have the money to do this, it's a who gets what game, and it's a Crap game, if you ask me.. I's sure the FO is likely thinking this also, so we will see who wants to get off to a running start or a crawl.. JMO
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When do we start to worry? If the players are not signed by the 2nd preseason game, that is a bad sign.
Honestly, I don't it matters one way or the other. The Browns are going to be a mediocre team again this season. It isn't like having Quinn, Thomas, Wright onboard today would suddenly make the Browns into a playoff contender.
So, these guys will start to work their way into the lineup and start somewhere between week 4 and week 8 depending on how poorly the team is playing.
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Vince Young, last years #3 signed for 58 mil.....25 of which is guaranteed.
That is our starting point?...
Thats the thing Vince Young got a lot more than the #3 pick should, because he was a quarterback. However, a Left Tackle, D'Brick, got picked #4 overall. This situation is nearly identicle to Thomas's except for the 1 overall pick difference. I think the contract D'Brick got is a perfect starting point. Of course Thomas got picked one slot earlier, and the salary is increased somewhere along the lines of 5 to 10% per pick each year; so we will have to pay him a little bit more than D'Brick got signed last year, but not a ton more.
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There is no way to prove this, but I would bet you a house payment that in the end, the figure ends up WAY closer to what the players ask for in the beginning than what the teams offer in the beginning.
It is all based on market....I don't think many go in asking 30% above market.
And I have no way to prove what I'm about to say either... but my guess is that in most cases the players and teams aren't all that far apart in the actual number from the beginning. The sticking points tend to be about how much is guaranteed, how many years, option years, etc... If you use draft position, last years draft, and player position, figuring out the dollars appears to be the easy part...
yebat' Putin
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As I said earlier....I understand the process....I just think it silly.
So the fact that "this is indeed the standard operating procedure" somehow makes that "a failure on the part of the Browns"?
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Maybe it would be better if the league dictated that players not under contract could not participate in mini-camps..
Then we would start seeing guys signed in may.
That could be. Or a "rookie cap" system". But that is something the leaugue would have to adopt. Once again, the "Browns" do not control that.
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I have no doubt we will sign all of our picks. I doubt any will enter nest years draft.
So the Browns are following the league's standard procedure,the players will be signed,but the Browns have "failed to sign them" like almost every other team in the league,right?
If it's the current "NFL system" you find fault with,why are you laying the blame on the Browns?
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But any way you cut it, we have failed to sign our top picks, thus, we have failed.
So the agents have nothing to do with the process? Or have the agents "failed to negotiate in good faith? Have the rookies failed to sign some reasonable offers?
If you want to throw the word failed around,let's spread it out to everyone who's failed in this equaion by your own definition.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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So the fact that "this is indeed the standard operating procedure" somehow makes that "a failure on the part of the Browns"?
If signing your picks is the goal....that is the goal isn't it?...then yes....we have failed.
How is that hard to understand??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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If signing your picks is the goal....that is the goal isn't it?...then yes....we have failed.
How is that hard to understand??
If the deadline hasn't come and gone, then it's not a failure,,, it's a work in progress! If they aren't signed by the time they are supposed to report to camp, then it's a failure,, NOT one minute before that.
And another thing, at that point, it's not only a failure on the part of the Browns, but it's a failure by the player and his agent as well..
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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j/c www.kffl.comBrowns | Savage expects Thomas to miss orientation Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:46:32 -0700 Tony Grossi, of the Cleveland Plain Dealer, reports Cleveland Browns general manager Phil Savage does not expect first-round draft choice OT Joe Thomas to be at the team's pre-camp rookie orientation Monday, July 23, because the two sides are unlikely to agree to terms by that time.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Cleveland Browns' top 3 draft picks likely to miss pre-training camp Thursday, July 19, 2007 Tony Grossi Plain Dealer Reporter The Browns' top three draft choices most likely will be missing when the club welcomes its rookies to a pre-training camp orientation on Monday. General Manager Phil Savage does not expect first-round picks Joe Thomas and Brady Quinn and second- round pick Eric Wright to be signed in time for the three-day rookie orient ation. Getting any under contract for the first team practice of training camp on July 27 will be problem atic, too. The Browns were one of a handful of teams with no draft picks signed until defensive end Chase Pittman, one of two seventh-round selections, agreed to terms Wednesday. Pittman, 6-5, 273 pounds out of LSU, signed a four-year deal through 2010. The top three selections - each of whom has professed eagerness to open the season as starters - each presents unique negotiating challenges for the Browns and their agents. Thomas, the third player overall chosen in the 2007 draft, wants to fall in line with the contract figures of recent No. 3 picks Vince Young, Braylon Edwards and Larry Fitzgerald. They were so-called offensive skill players and averaged more than $20 million in guaranteed money - unheard-of for a rookie offensive tackle. Quinn, one of the Browns' top-rated players, was the draft's free-fall story of the year. The Browns traded their second-round pick and next year's first-rounder to select Quinn at the No. 22 spot. Pegged as the team's quarterback of the future, Quinn's circumstances will require creativity in contract talks. "I would say there's probably been a little bit more consistent conversation between Joe Thomas and us than Brady Quinn," Savage said. Then there’s Wright, for whom the Browns traded two draft picks to move up and select with the 21st pick of the second round. He may be the toughest to sign because of a change in the collective bargaining agreement that is confounding clubs and agents of second-round picks. For the first time, contracts for second-round picks are limited to a maximum of four years. That squeezes the size of the signing bonus because it is pro-rated over the length of the contract for salary cap reasons. Also, the new CBA raised the contract tender a club can offer a potential restricted free agent after three years. The result is that second-round players, through their agents, now want significant salary escalators in the fourth year of their rookie contract in exchange for giving up the right to free agency. “It’s going to be an issue,” Sav- age said. “I haven’t heard of anyone [taken in the second round] close to signing,” said one agent of a second-round pick. Thomas, Wright and fifth-round pick Brandon McDonald all are represented by Peter Schaffer and Lamont Smith. “We’ve had positive discussions for the last couple months. We continue to dialogue,” Schaffer said. “We could be far away today and in five minutes be smoking a cigar. If they’re not in on time, it won’t be because of a lack of effort on our part.” Tom Condon, Quinn’s agent, could not be reached for comment. Savage said he hoped to sign the three remaining picks chosen after the top three in time for rookie orientation. To reach this Plain Dealer reporter: tgrossi@plaind.com, 216-999-4670
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Quote:
So the fact that "this is indeed the standard operating procedure" somehow makes that "a failure on the part of the Browns"?
If signing your picks is the goal....that is the goal isn't it?...then yes....we have failed.
How is that hard to understand??
The problem to understanding is with your insistant desire to place blame ONLY upon the Browns is what's so hard to understand given your rationale..................
The players do want to play and get paid,right? THEIR objective is to get those big fat paychecks,right?
Since that is their goal,these rookies have failed too,correct?
What's so hard to understand about that?
And since the agents are squeezing for every dollar they can get,and in many cases turn down pretty reasonable offers? And they want paid as well,right? Their "objective" is to get these contracts signed too,right?
Then they have failed as well,correct?
That's what's so hard to understand Peen. You have only indicated that failure is upon the part of the Browns. Not these rookies nor their agents. When in fact,all three of these parties have the same objective. To get the deal done and the contracts signed. And ALL of these people,are in part a reason these guys aren't signed.
The Browns have failed to sign them because the players and agents have failed to agree to terms and offers. Their failure to come to an agreement means ALL all parties concerned here have failed,not just the Browns.
Yet you have given no indication as such. That's what's "hard to understand".
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Then there’s Wright, for whom the Browns traded two draft picks to move up and select with the 21st pick of the second round.
He may be the toughest to sign because of a change in the collective bargaining agreement that is confounding clubs and agents of second-round picks.
For the first time, contracts for second-round picks are limited to a maximum of four years.
That squeezes the size of the signing bonus because it is pro-rated over the length of the contract for salary cap reasons.
Also, the new CBA raised the contract tender a club can offer a potential restricted free agent after three years.
The result is that second-round players, through their agents, now want significant salary escalators in the fourth year of their rookie contract in exchange for giving up the right to free agency.
“It’s going to be an issue,” Sav-
age said.
“I haven’t heard of anyone [taken in the second round] close to signing,” said one agent of a second-round pick.
This scares the hell out of me. I wouldn't expect him to screw himself but the fact that he was such a character risk that teams didn't even have him on their boards I would hope make him a little more flexible to sign. I think maybe the whole 4 year deal thing for second rounders might backfire on teams.
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just clicking...of course we should be worried about getting our rookies in on time - well not too much as it basically is out of our control - maybe concerned is a better term.
But it's not a Brown's problem but more an universal NFL problem - there are only 2 first rounders signed and both late round picks. And I believe??? one 2nd rounder signed. These are the rookies that are most likely to bring impact to teams.
To single out the Browns as derilic in their procedure is ludicrous. Its just the way it is just don't ask me why cause for the most part they almost all sign just a week or two later than preferred. Why can't it all get done on time? I don't know - greed? As long as there is a Cap system teams must be prudent in their rookie signings. Agents are in it for the money and need feather's in their caps to recruit the next crop.
It appears that Joe Thomas and Eric Wright will be signed...maybe a week or two into camp? But signed. BQ seems to be a difficult signing and might have to wait till all others are signed and with the cap for paying rookies pretty much spell out what we can offer.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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You're right it is a league problem. Nobody seems to want to sign first because they're afraid of getting too little. Once a couple sign they usually seem to fall like dominos. Hopefully that will be the case for us.
#gmstrong
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Just clicking Pdawg,, Doesn't anyone find it funny that we have the exact same discussion every year and guess what,, it still doesn't change anything
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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J/C
The black guy on PTI just said that we aren't expecting any of our top 3 guys in for rookie orientation (This was said in "The Big Finish"). Is this because it starts Monday or because we're behind in our negotiations. It would really me off if Joe Thomas doesn't get to camp on time, not to mention Eric Wright and Brady Quinn. We're counting on these guys, and they need to be in camp on time........
Yeah, I'm worried now..... Doesn't rookie orientation start a week before camp. What are the dates we're working with here
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Rookies report Monday. Camp starts Friday (1 week from tomorrow).
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Petey, I'm guessing we aren't any further behind than any other team at the moment.. Obviously, that can change
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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Since that is their goal,these rookies have failed too,correct?
No....incorrect. They will sign when the offer is right.
If we were talking 1 guy 3 weeks late...then the player might be the problem.....not when it is all the picks minus 1.
If the word fail is your hang-up.....ok....the Browns have been non-attentive in signing their picks.
How's that?? 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I'm with ya on that. It's the team's job to get the players signed an into camp. When it starts. Not after. If someone thinks it's ok to do the latter, you're mistaken.
Rookies don't have a rookie mini camp without reason. It's because they have a lot to learn. You can only learn so much from a book. Until you get your hands on something, you can only know so much about it.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Since that is their goal,these rookies have failed too,correct?
No....incorrect. They will sign when the offer is right.
So give them whatever they ask for and throw "negotiations" out the window? That sounds logical.
In case you've forgotten,the NFL is a business. Not that I "like" that fact,but that's the reality in this discussion. Not just the "game" we watch on Sundays.
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If we were talking 1 guy 3 weeks late...then the player might be the problem.....not when it is all the picks minus 1.
So it will be 10 days BEFORE camp even starts (training camp) and you're already "predicting failure"? How do you know two out of the three won't be there a week from Monday? Aren't you getting just a tad bit ahead of yourself?
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If the word fail is your hang-up.....ok....the Browns have been non-attentive in signing their picks.
How's that??
Not really any different. In a business venture,there are more than one party involved. To sit on the sidelines without knowing what's going on internaly with these negotiations,yet trying to throw the blame on one party in the process is not using sound logic what so ever IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Just clicking Pdawg,,
Doesn't anyone find it funny that we have the exact same discussion every year and guess what,, it still doesn't change anything
I do....haven't been on here for a couple of days and I KNEW by looking at the calendar this thread would be on here when I logged on today!
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Well, it looks like the first day of training camp (for rookies) will be pretty busy(sarcasm)- a few free agents and one pick signed. Don't trip over each other in the hallways. Not going to get too much accomplished with that many bodies in camp.
I think the main purpose of having the rookies report a few days earlier is to set up a "deadline" to get the rookies signed- they can have their "holdout"- and still report in time for the meaningful stuff with the full squad. That being said- i think it is hard to justify why all of the second day picks aren't signed at this point.
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When should we start to worry about signing our rookies?
NOW 
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Browns | Team to meet with Quinn's agent Sun, 22 Jul 2007 09:46:43 -0700 Tony Grossi, of the Cleveland Plain Dealer, reports the Cleveland Browns are expected to meet with Tom Condon, the agent for first-round draft choice QB Brady Quinn, Sunday, July 22. http://www.kffl.com/hotw/nfl
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Quinn wants to be in on time BADDDDDD.... he doesnt want to wait til next year to start..
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Quinn wants to be in on time BADDDDDD.... he doesnt want to wait til next year to start..
I like that attitude.
As I said before, these guys that say it's out of their hands and they just their agents do their things are full of S---. They pay their agents and if they want in on time bad enough, you will make sure your agent gets it done. Kudos to Brady if he's pushing this.
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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yea... i think Brady is pushing it..
whether he admits it or not.. he was embarrassed at the NFL Draft when Miami took Ginn instead of himself... The Browns do play Miami by the way..
he also got called out by one of those old ND QB's for not cutting his hair, chewing gum, etc.
he got called out by reporters and analyst for not being an accurate QB...
and one important thing... last year.. Vince Young started.. Matt Leinhart started... He wants to be no different...
THE GUY HAS SOMETHINE TO PROVE!!
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I am watching the NFL Network and they were just stating that talks are to resume tomorrow (face to face) with Quinn's people and the Browns..  .Thought you guys might want to know.....
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I would think the Steelers getting Timmons in would help the BQ talk.....Timmons went at 15....BQ at 22...so the slotting should be able to start falling into place.
HACK
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,691
Raven
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Raven
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,691 |
Hey Steel, I don't know if you have noticed, but there doesn't seem to be as much "buzz" this year / season over the rookie signings as years pass, What's up with the "low profile" this time around???
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 716
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 716 |
Im not sure....probably has to do with the new CBA thats now in place....and agents and teams trying to figure out how to get everything they used to want...into the new system.
I know the 4 year cap on 2nd rounders seemed to slow everyone down.
The lack of signings surely has got the fans sleepy....Over on the Steelers board their is a little more energy....all the picks are signed....Coach Tomlins first camp starts Monday.
But other than that...I just dont know.
HACK
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531 |
Quote:
I would think the Steelers getting Timmons in would help the BQ talk.....Timmons went at 15....BQ at 22...so the slotting should be able to start falling into place.
HACK
As far as I'm concerned, match what Timmons got and give it to Quinn.
No higher than top 15 money.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 724
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 724 |
How is it a Steelers fan can have such a big signature but my little one gets deleted?? 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,691
Raven
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Raven
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,691 |
I guess that's something you have to take up with the "BIG WIGS"..... 
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum When should we start to worry
about signing our rookies?
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