If we can dream, Foreman vs Tyson in their primes could have been a great one. Foreman's utilization of Archie Moore's patented cross arm defense would have never let a Tyson uppercut through. That fight would have ended in some serious head trauma as those are (arguably) the two most devastating punchers in the history of the heavyweight class.
Tyson was all about bad intentions. Devastating puncher.
I take nothing away from him.
However, don't know what you have or have not seen. If you watch the fight between Cleveland Williams and Ali you can see what greatness looks like.
This is before they stripped him of his title.
Williams was a very good pro. He was a serious contender.
I don't think Ali missed him with a single punch. At the same time Williams could not lay a glove on him. At that moment in time I don't there has been a heavyweight in history that could have beaten Ali.
Another thing Sonny Liston has kind of gotten lost in history. But he was Tyson before Tyson. He knocked everybody out. And I will say he had the tools to fight Tyson. He was totally intimating. Power jab. Crushing punches. If he hurt you. You were done.
That is another dream fight. Liston vs Tyson. Or Foreman vs Liston. aye ya ye.
Liston seems lost in time but I remember what he did to Patterson and a bunch of other guys.
If you watch the video, you'll see the economy of movement, the balance, and the power of punches traveling relatively short distances that characterized Joe Louis. He was an awesome heavyweight, smallish by today's standards at 6-2, 210, he still generated unbelievable force on his punches. His left hook and that short, chopping right cross were textbook, and devastating.
I was a big fan of Roy Jones. Such an exciting fighter to watch. It always kind of amazed me how he went from unbeatable to get knocked out constantly in what seemed like a blink of an eye
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
He's previous fight he won the heavyweight title, he had gained about 15lbs and looked pretty solid. At that point he was courting the big heavyweights (Tyson, Lewis). The IBF (I think) gave him an ultimatum to vacate one of the two belts and he decided to stay at light heavyweight. He lost 24 lbs in a fairly short time to fight Tarver and got the crap beat out of him. His face was beaten and bruised, there were rumors of a concussion. He got beaten even worse in the rematch. Fast forward to now and he's seeking experimental treatment for brain damage.
I think drastic weight gain and then loss led to the situation but I think it's also pretty fair to assume RJ always had a glass jaw and just never really got beat up.
I think Jones was a natural Middleweight / Super Middleweight. If he would have ever found any competition in any of the lower classes, he may have never moved up.
Joe was a beast . The problem IMO was here faced a lot of Europeans and didn't get on the American radar until later on in his career . Nobody wanted to fight him ! Unless I'm wrong he retired u defeated ? His name should be on that list .
Meh , Tyson was lightning in a bottle . He was destined to have a career like a shooting star and D'amto would have at best extended the time before the inevitable collapse . That being said , for a time he was all powerful in the ring .
The vast majority of the best fights ever are not HW at all because for the most part they are horrible boxers . I say that in comparison to every other weight class .
Boxing is dead and promoters and boxing politics killed it .Don King and Bob Arum should be vilified for the entirety of history of the sport for the damage they and others like them have wrought. The same thing is happening to MMA unless something changes .
I get it that people want to see gladiators engage in blood sports but making a soap opera out of it just cheapens the effort put in by these amazing athletes . Best man against best man and let's see what we got . We live in an era that a loud mouth Irish cage fighter TALKED his way into a boxing match with the best boxer in a generation in his first professional bout !! Smh
Rocky Marciano was 5-11, 187 but he was as powerful a puncher as ever lived. Marciano rarely jabbed, and didn't really throw combinations. Rocky threw bombs. He was also fearless, tireless, and relentless. I came across the following article that was posted in a boxing forum. I can't source it without registering, so take it for what its worth. I think its legit, and revealing.
***************
Rocky Marciano's Punching Power
43 ko's in 49 fights
88 percent ko ratio
"Why waltz 10 rounds with an opponent if you can KO him in one?" Rocky Marciano.
It is the Knock Out that excites boxing fans, as much as the Grand Slam in baseball. The power puncher who can take out an opponent with one savage blow at any time in the fight is always going to make for an interesting fight. There have been great sluggers in boxing; Dempsey, Louis, Foreman, Sugar Ray Robinson, Archie Moore, to name a few of the best.
The Ring magazine rates the best punchers on the criteria of those who can knock out quality opponents even in the later rounds, and who can knock out heavier opposition. Of the heavywieghts, the September 1997 issue of The Ring rated the three best punchers as Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, and Rocky Marciano. Of Marciano they said,"He never sought refuge in a clinch, never tired, and couldn't be hurt....He was an unstoppable force, breaking bodies and spirits. It was a hellish experiance to fight him...Like Dempsey and Louis, he was able to get his whole body into a punch."
When Marciano was destroying all challengers with his blockbuster assault, the U.S. Testing Co. was asked to measure the power of Rocky's wallop. Its findings: "Marciano's knockout blow packs more explosive energy than an armour-piercing bullet and represents as much energy as would be required to spot lift 1000 pounds one foot off the ground." Boxing Illustrated December 1963 Bert Sugar (Foremost Boxing Historian): "As indestructible as any fighter in history, Marciano walked into-and through- thousands of hard, clean, jolting shots in the manner of a human steamroller, wrecking his opponents with baseball-bat swings to the arms, the midsection, the head, and just about anything else in reach. Always ready to take two or three punches to land one, the determined Marciano melted down the guards of his opponents, and with the shortest arms in the history of the heavyweight division, hewed them down to size." He said of Marciano's right hand power punch, called the "Suzie-Q", "It was one of the most devastating weapons ever brought into a ring."
Where Did the Power Come From?
How does a 187 pound man hit harder than a 200+ pound man when both are trained fighters? There's an axiom in boxing that says "You can’t teach power. Either a fighter is born with it or not." Hundreds and hundreds of fighters have proven it to be true. One heavyweight is a formidable knockout artist while another rarely hurts an opponent and must win by points, even though they might be identical in height, weight, and the size of their muscles.
Part of it lies in how a fighter sets himself when he delivers his blow. A pure boxer stylist will be on his toes, mobile, with little contact with the floor when he hits. The force of his impact comes from his arms and shoulders only. But a slugger, a Jim Jefferies, Joe Louis, Dempsey, Frazier, Foreman, Tyson, or Marciano, will plant his feet flat as he punches, using the floor for leverage to get more of his body weight behind the punch.
Another part is "commitment to the punch". The fighter who is worried about a counter blow is going to hold something back. He wants to be able to block the counter punch if it comes. But, the fighter who has no fear of retaliation, who accepts that he might get hit in return and couldn’t care less, will put everything into the punch. Marciano knew before he stepped into the ring that he would get hit a lot during the course of the fight. He accepted it beforehand and didn’t let it interfere with his intention to bang away at his opponent. When Rocky let go he was totally committed to the punch, putting every ounce of energy and body weight into every punch.
Marciano’s incredible power began in his feet as they pushed off the mat. The energy was fed by his thick, muscular legs, the swivel of his hips, and the twist he’d put into his upper body as he snapped forward his arm and fist.
Where the power came from might be best illustrated in a letter I received from a doctor who works with internal medical problems and trauma. He told me this: "Now what determines the power of a punch? I mean the formula… The effect of a punch is calculated by the energy applied at the sight of the hit. So the kinetic energy of Marciano's punch, that is the degree of damage the punch would generate, is equal to 1/2 mass x velocity x velocity (1/2mv2). Rocky's was equal to the mass of the arm plus the weight he shoved forward with body weight. Next, he hit in close. As your arm moves forward the time from beginning to end increases as you increase the distance of the thrown punch. Since velocity = feet per sec, that means the longer the range the less velocity. Now the energy generated is, remember, mass times vel x vel. Well if your punches are so much shorter, traveling only a few inches, your velocity is incredible! And the transmitted energy at impact is enormous! That calculation of energy is the destructive force (damage) to the body. Basically he broke his opponents up inside. Had George Foreman been a swarmer, he would have been a better fighter. He was a slugger. But as strong as he was he hit from too far away. Frazier was not as powerful as Marciano. He had a similar style, but didn't hit as hard (didn't use shifting weight, etc)."
This generation of power to the point of impact was described by boxing writer Nat Tashman in the July 1986 issue of Boxing Beat: "Considering the weight advantage Rocky gave away to opponents, few seem to know the key to his power. Fully believing in his ability to take a punch and confident he couldn’t be knocked out, he’d wade in to position himself as close as he could get. Then, like lifting a weight, he’d plant his muscular, stumpy legs and thighs, and swivel-hip his punch. At that point, he was delivering his full 187 pound, adrenaline-loaded wallop for the lights-out contact."
What boxers and sports writers said of Marciano's punching power:
His Opponents: Joe Louis, knocked out by Rocky in the 8th round, said of Marciano, "It hurt to bump into him....He hits harder than Max Schmeling...this kid is tough enough to beat anyone." He also said, "The Rock didn't know too much about the boxing book, but it wasn't a book he hit me with. It was a whole library of bone crushers."
Jersey Joe Walcott, who lost his title to Marciano in a 13th round KO and a rematch in a 1st round KO, was asked who hit harder, Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano. "Joe could take you out with combinations...Marciano was a one-punch artist. He threw every punch like you throw a baseball, as hard as he could. I have to say, with all respect to Joe, Marciano hit harder."
Ezzard Charles "Rocky numbs you all over. Wherever he hits you, he hurts you; on the arms, the shoulders, the neck and the head."
Archie Moore (KO'd in 9th), when asked by reporters which of Marciano's punches hurt him, said, "Man they all hurt." He also said, "After a fight with Marciano, it felt like you had been beat all over the upper body with a blackjack or hit with rocks." "He could hurt you, sure, but it was the quantity of his punches. He just had more stamina than anyone else in those days. He was like a bull with gloves."
Roland LaStarza "I would throw a hard punch, then he would throw a hard punch. The difference was that Rocky would throw 10 more. He just never stopped throwing punches."
Harry "Kid" Matthews "He was a great puncher, one of the best of all-time. He just threw one punch after another, and all of them were hard."
"Dan, I can still feel his punches. He kept punching me in the upper arms until I could no longer hold them up to defend or throw punches". Phil Muscato, 5th round KO victim of Rocky, to his nephew Dan, many years after his fight with Marciano.(Thanks to Dan Muscato).
Bernie Reynolds (1952 opponent) "He had amazing strength. Any time Marciano hit you, he could hurt you. He didn't do much flicking; every punch was a knockout punch."
Other Fighters and Boxing Experts: Floyd Patterson, who knocked out Moore for Rocky's vacated title said, "In the ring he looked sloppy and awkward sometimes, but that was deceptive because he was terribly strong, could punch and take a punch...Jersey Joe Walcott had made him miss for twelve rounds and then Rocky took his title away in the thirteenth. Ezzard Charles seemed to be making him look bad, but Rocky busted up his face something horrible...I respected Marciano"
Jack Dempsey, interviewed in the 1953 fall edition of Fight magazine said, "What everyone forgets is that Marciano can punch harder with a right hand than any modern-day heavyweight. In his first fight with Walcott, Rocky needed only one blow to win the title. The power in his right scrambled Jersey Joe's brains at Chicago." "I've scored my share of knockouts along the way, but more often than not my opponents got up after being knocked down and had to be knocked down repeatedly. The same is true of Joe Louis. But Marciano needs only one solid smash and it's all over. That's why I say Rocky Marciano is the hardest-hitting heavyweight champion I have seen."
Carmine Basilio "Today he’d look like a midget against some of those heavyweights around, but he’d clobber them all. A great fighter, very tough."
Jack Hurley, Harry "Kid" Matthew's manager, "I never saw a fighter so confident, so sure every punch he was throwing was the knockout."
Tommy Loughran (Light heavyweight champion 1927-29) "He is great by accident, or maybe instinct. He moves in and belts you, and wallops you, and moves away, and all by instinct. Then Rocky comes up with that hook, and his whole body is behind it. You have to class him with Jack Dempsey. When the fight started, Dempsey had only one thought-to knock you out. That's Marciano's instinct."
"Marciano's gloved fists broke blood vessels and bones in LaStarza's arms and elbows. First the arms grew heavy, then they began to ache awfully, then they grew numb. As the relentless battle wore on, LaStarza found it harder and harder to raise his arms, much less jab with them or punch with them. His hands lowered, his defense dissipated, Marciano began to punish him about the head. LaStarza began to take a terrible beating." Bill Libby, "The Story of a Champion", 1971.
Fred Brown said, "He hits you with something that looks like a little tap to the crowd, but the guy who gets it shakes right down to his legs."
"A right hand that registered nine on the Richter scale." Red Smith, New York Times sports columnist.
"He's the hardest hitting fighter I've ever seen. After one of his knockouts, I never take my eye off his victims till they move again." Bill Corum, sports writer.
"Rocky Marciano was probably the most ferocious man ever to win the title, and the most relentless." Ebony magazine.
"Why? His man's not that tall." Bugs Baer's reply when Don Cockell's manager requested a 20 foot ring instead of 16 foot.
"Louis is faster with a barrage of punches, but Rocky hurts more with one punch than Joe did with four. Rocky hurts you every time he connects." Response to a reporter from a sparring partner of both Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano.
"He was chastised by the press every time he fought as being a Neanderthal, no concept of boxing, who was going to get beat as soon as he got in with someone who could box, who was gonna make him look silly…It took a long time for the boxing scribes to realize they were in the presence of sheer power." Ferdie Pacheco
One of the best ever, who I feel never gets enough respect, was Wilfred Benitez. The youngest world champion ever with three belts in three weight classes at the age of 17. One of the best defensive fighters ever, one of the best counter-punchers... an absolute technician in the ring. His fight with Sugar Ray Leonard is one of my favorites of all time.
If nothing else, watch Round 15 (50:00) and you see everything that was great about boxing. Two tacticians going toe-to-toe... Carlos Padilla (the greatest ref ever), Howard Cosell, a championship fight that would redefine the landscape of boxing. This fight gave birth to the "Four Kings"... Hagler fought for the Middleweight title on the undercard, Hearns was on the radar and Duran was, well, Duran.
Boxing, over the next 10 years, set the bar so high that it would never recover once these young, great fighters were gone. As magical as it was, I'll always believe it was "the beginning of the end".
Ali, Duran, Hagler, Foreman, Frazier, Leonard, Hearns, Holmes, Tyson are some of the best I've seen. Styles make fights. Boxing's popularity has dropped due to the emergence of mma in the last 20 years.
I just want a winner. We need players who can be part of the solution not part of the problem.
Boxing's popularity has dropped due to the emergence of mma in the last 20 years.
I would say this is due mainly to the lack of unification. In boxing, no one can even keep track of the various belts anymore. Hell, they even invent them now simply for promotion. You have guys ducking fights, guys being prohibited from taking fights, etc.
If there were a unified belt, boxing would be popular again.
When it comes to Welterweights and Middleweights, there is really only one name you need to know: Sugar Ray Robinson, pound-for-pound GOAT. Which is not to say that Hagler, Hearns, Leonard, Duran, and others were not great WW's or great MW's. But RR was just better in either weight class. Power, grace, speed, and thunder in both hands. The video below has a really crappy soundtrack, so you night want to mute, unless you like bad music. But at the end you'll see both Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali saying Robinson was P4P GOAT. Their word is good enough for me.
Unlike today in that era they fought a ton of fights.
In addition the competition was fierce. That to me is the difference. Look at the guys he fought. Boxing has always been the way out for the poor. In Ray's day poor came from all ethnic backgrounds. Today boxing is dominated by Hispanic and Black fighters. Plus the sport in general has lost it's luster from the very nature of the sport. There are many who would like the sport banned. Let alone the issues regarding corruption.
Back to Ray. He had it all. There was nothing Ray could not do in the ring. Amazing speed, footwork, power, smarts.
Watched and/or listened(radio) to a lotta boxing back in the 60's, 70's, etc.
Someone earlier mentioned that back then and as per below, earlier, they boxed much more often than they do today.
How true that is.
Whilst looking at a few diff boxers fight records "from the day", below is less than 2mos of Jake LaMotta's fights. 5 fights in 2mos. Jan 1, 1943 to Feb 26, 1943.
Holds true to manymany fighters.
LaMotta fought...... Jan 1........Edgar Jan 15.......Wilson Jan 22.......Hayes Feb 5........Sugar Ray Feb 26.......Sugar Ray
And, imo, Sugar Ray Robinson is best of all time.
Loss 31-6-2 United States Sugar Ray Robinson UD 10 Feb 26, 1943 United States Olympia Stadium, Detroit, Michigan, U.S. Robinson was floored in the 7th round for an eight-count. Attendance: 15,149. Their 3rd contest.
Win 31-5-2 United States Sugar Ray Robinson UD 10 Feb 05, 1943 United States Olympia Stadium, Detroit, Michigan, U.S. Robinson was knocked through the ropes in the 8th round. Attendance: 18,930. Their 2nd contest.
Win 30-5-2 United States Charley Hayes TKO 6 (10) Jan 22, 1943 United States Olympia Stadium, Detroit, Michigan, U.S. Hayes was floored for an eight-count in the second round.
Win 29-5-2 United States California Jackie Wilson PTS 10 Jan 15, 1943 United States Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, U.S.
Win 28-5-2 United States Jimmy Edgar SD 10 Jan 01, 1943 United States Olympia Stadium, Detroit, Michigan, U.S
In their prime? Mike Tyson would destroy any of them. Best ever.
Yep, if you took ANY heavyweight, at their absolute best, nobody touches Mike.
I don't see how anyone can make this claim. Tyson beat a bunch of nobody's and washed up fighters. His best win was vs Michael Spinks who was really a Light Heavyweight. The rest is a long list of Tony Tuckers, Frank Bruno's and Francois Botha's.
A "in his prime" Mike Tyson vs a "in his prime" Lennox Lewis, Lewis wins hands down.
The whole D'Amato died, he went to jail excuses as why he started losing to better fighters are just that, excuses.
People are just starstruck remembering him KO guys like Marvis Frazier in 30 seconds. Sorry, if you want to be named "Greatest Fighter", you actually had to of beaten some other Great Fighters.
Influential? Yes. Popular? Yes. Spectacle? Yes. Entertaining? Yes. Best Fighter? No way.
Any list that doesn't have Mike Tyson ahead of Spinks is a BS list. Tyson DESTROYED him in less than one full round. His eyes rolled back ih his head he was so out of it. While in his prime, Tyson was the greatest heavyweight, but the last part of his career knocks him down some. SOME. Ali was the greatest heavyweight. Joe Lewis should probably be ranked second and then I would put Tyson. When he was still Iron Mike he was unbelievable. Not just his raw power but he could BOX. At the end, he had devolved into a fighter but at the start, he was truly a boxer WITH the most devastating punch I ever saw. He could slip the jab, get out of a corner, set you up with different styles, etc. The man was well trained by "Cus" D'Amato.
That however does not make him the greatest fighter of all times.
There have been a number guys that if they fought Tyson at his best I believe would have beaten him.
Ali - Way to much speed and movement.
Foreman - a bigger version of Mike
Liston - huge power, with a jab that would keep Mike off
Ernie Shavers - he was dodged until time took over
Holyfield - he had Mike's number
Lennox Lewis - Just too big for Mike
Of course we will never know. I am just going by what I have seen.
Boxing is all about style matchups. You can be a great fighter but sometimes another guy just has your number.
At the end of his career, he was a knockout artist. At the beginning when he was Iron Mike he was a great boxer in every sense of the term. He was well trained by "Cus" D'Amato. After a while, he got lazy and sloppy but if you watch the fights at the start of his career you will see a quality boxer. One that knew how to cut off a ring, slip the jab, set a guy up, etc. Tyson could box.
In their prime? Mike Tyson would destroy any of them. Best ever.
Yep, if you took ANY heavyweight, at their absolute best, nobody touches Mike.
I don't see how anyone can make this claim. Tyson beat a bunch of nobody's and washed up fighters. His best win was vs Michael Spinks who was really a Light Heavyweight. The rest is a long list of Tony Tuckers, Frank Bruno's and Francois Botha's.
A "in his prime" Mike Tyson vs a "in his prime" Lennox Lewis, Lewis wins hands down.
The whole D'Amato died, he went to jail excuses as why he started losing to better fighters are just that, excuses.
People are just starstruck remembering him KO guys like Marvis Frazier in 30 seconds. Sorry, if you want to be named "Greatest Fighter", you actually had to of beaten some other Great Fighters.
Influential? Yes. Popular? Yes. Spectacle? Yes. Entertaining? Yes. Best Fighter? No way.
Tyson DESTROYED Michael Spinks. A guy that until Tyson was undefeated and considered a great fighter. He destroyed everyone that got in the ring with him. He was the first undisputed heavyweight in ages. He unified the belts by beating all three champions. So don't say he didn't fight anyone. That Spinks fight was supposed to be the fight of the century. It was over in the blink of an eye. Some of you people are forgetting that Tyson was a BOXER at the start of his career, not just a knockout artist. He was well trained at the beginning. I have no doubt in his prime that he could stand up with anyone. Now I do knock him down a little for his later career. But not much. He was a joy to watch BOX. That's why it sucked so much when he let it all get away from him.
My two favorite boxers were Razor Ruddock, and the Prince Naseem Hamed. Loved those two fighter. My last boxing ppv I paid for was the Hamed vs Barrera fight. Had a bunch of people over, didn’t even charge anyone. I was so disappointed after that fight, I don’t think I even said bye to anyone, lol.
I'll put up Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini. He fought lightweight and light welterweight. This guy was 5'4" and would go after opponents like Tyson. He was fun to watch. He never would have been able to fight in the modern age, as he was a bleeder. He constantly had a cut over his eyes, and would bleed for most of the fight. I really think they copied his face for the end of Rocky.
Check him out on youtube, but avoid the Koo Duk Kim videos. Everyone wants to see the guy he killed.
This guy never lost a fight. EVER. he is one of my favorite fighters because I have always believed in fast hand speed. That crazy grin of his while destroying people was fun to watch too lol
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
Always like Joe and thought it was a shame that he didn't get to America sooner . I would've liked him to have faced RJJ before he was over the hill . I remember watching that Hopkins fight as I was a big Hopkins fan and man what an ugly spectacle it was .
Was the "phantom punch" just that or was it the perfect shot right on the "proverbial button" when Clay(at the time) won that fight?
With Listons connections to the mob and rumored "taking a fall" for the mob combined with the what seemed like only one video camera used for fights, etc, etc, etc.......
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