DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Browns Front Office...cont....

Nobody said great. You set his first year bar at being a Pro Bowler. He is better than Schwartz was his first year.

But he's in his second year. He's not a rookie as much as some would like to claim. And let's get what I said straight. You can't let a good RT go and then take for granted that you can just draft a guy in the third round and just believe he will be as good. The odds are strongly against that being the case.

No matter how much you carry on, you keep thinking that's true. The odds say you're thinking is flawed.

Since he was injured his first year, this is the first year he could play. If it makes you feel better though, he's probably playing better than Schwartz's second year as well.

Whatever you have to tell yourself to make you feel better. lol

An OT can hold his opponent 11 times in one game and NOT get called for it...just ask Garrett & Okung.

I'm certain that is what you do, but I'll stick to facts.

I've given you one fact you can't deny. 11 penalties in 12 games. You've just spouted a bunch of crap with no substance in return.

And that appears to be the only fact you are interested in.

I broke those penalties down for in in a prior post and you decided to edit them out of your quote rather than deal with them.

7 accepted penalties in 3 games in a sport where refs could literally call holding on every play. I know thinking is rough for you but it becomes easier the more you practice.

That's why it's usually only flagrant holding calls that draw penalties. And the fact that only 8 penalties were accepted doesn't change the fact he committed 11 of them. He's a HUGE liability in pass protection and all you can really do is project about "how good you think he'll be some day". Well good luck with that. If fans were right about that even one fourth of the time we'd have a great team right now. We don't.

So you stick with your odds and I'll keep mine. BTW- since holding calls can be called on every play, I wonder why the rest of our OL players don't have almost an even dozen? Excuses, excuses.

No, actually I went out of my way not project what he might do someday.

He is better now than Schwartz was in his first year or in his second year. This is pass blocking that I am talking about. His run blocking is head and shoulders above Schwartz and he is already in the top 5 right tackles in run blocking.

The only one projecting is the guy thinking that a player getting penalties while learning the position will continue to get them in future years.

Believing that Coleman is better in his second year than Schwartz was in his second year is subjective and we disagree about that.

I haven't predicted he will continue to get penalties the rest of his career. What I have said is that if you feel that a 3rd round pick can be brought in and turn out to be as good as Schwartz, the odds certainly aren't in your favor, and they're not.

It seems you feel that developing a player to where he's really good, then just starting over with a rookie is an avenue to follow. What happens with that is it creates a weakness. Then about the time you solidify the position, you start over again creating the same hole you had all over again. That's not how you build a team.

Deputy, what are you basing your statement on that Coleman is better then Schwartz?

I think its his opinion, and he is trying to defend it.

IMHO, at this stage of his career Coleman is much more consensual than Schwartz ever was at the same time.

Coleman has 4 accepted holding penalties in 12 games, Tyron Smith has 5 accepted holding penalties in 10 games. Following your logic, Coleman must be better than Tyron Smith.

Obviously, there is more to an OT's performance than the penalties he has called on him. I'm not sure why you appear to be so zeroed in on them. Additionally, I think the 11 you keep referencing includes other penalties than just holding.

Coleman may be a liability in pass protection, but you aren't doing a great job of validating that assertion.

Kizer is probably detrimental to our pass protection. Teams aren't being made to pay the price for being aggressive.

I'm also pretty sure the NFL doesn't call flagrant holding as often as it should:

Link

Link for penalty stats

Vers,
If you lived in DC, we would get a drink this weekend!!!!

Sure you have. He sucks according to you because of penalties that he has had in 3 games.

You are making an effort to start that cycle of starting over again because Coleman is not good enough for you.

Most people on here were complaining about Schwartz until he was gone and then everyone loved him.

He is blocking better. He came out of the gate as a better run blocker and his pass blocking is getting better every week. He has improved his pass blocking faster than Schwartz has.

You got that right.

According to PFF Coleman is currently ranked as the 49th best OT, he has a rating of 55.9, run blocking rating of 76.1 and pass blocking rating of 49.3. Schwartz in his first two years had ratings of 83.1 and 80.3. I like Coleman but he is no where near what Mitchell Schwartz was when he first started his career.

Vers is going to be the GM....

Kidding... This is the logic explanation,but nothing follows logic here..

Why would you retain the worst coach on NFL history?

I think it’s as others said, haslam doesn’t want anymore blood on his hands, he’ll let the gm make the call

The owner always says he is keeping the head coach until he gets rid of the head coach. Lame duck head coaches tend to be lazy.

We want pitchforks and fires....

This is going down like the worst team on the NFL history...

Now that the project is officially over its time to spill the blood in Berea

But that doesn't make any difference because..... Well i don't know why but to some it just doesn't.

Stardate 2354.12.07

"The Browns did not ... retain Scwartz!"

I think Schwartz should get his own Forum.

PFF grades do matter. Quite frankly dawg66 put up a better argument than you have in several posts Pit. I am going by what I see and PFF will eventually catch up to what I see, I hope. I noticed McCourty and Kindred a couple of weeks before they did, so it's possible. A #49 ranking overall isn't too bad for a RT, as the LT's will dominate the rankings. I played tackle, so I do know what a good tackle looks like. Coleman is going to be a keeper in my opinion and counting his penalties in in first year starting is just sour grapes about Schwartz being gone.

The front office not resigning Schwartz has nothing to do with how Coleman looks as a player.

We all "hope" for his improvement. We all want him to be the answer. It's just some of the silly comments that I find so funny. Like he's as good as Schwartz was in his second year. That some believe that just because you drafted him in the third round he's going to be the answer at RT.

None of those things make any sense. The odds of a third rounder playing up to the level of Schwartz aren't good. He isn't as good as Scwartz was in his second year.

All of us hope that every player drafted to our team will develop and answer the position they were drafted for. Unfortunately that usually isn't the case.

No it doesn't. But you don't keep downgrading your positions when building your team. You keep your good talent and upgrade your poor players.

As i said before, Schwartz was not a weakness. It would be great if Coleman doesn't end up as one of the guys we need to upgrade. I'm not actually saying that he will or won't be.

But exaggerating where he is at this point doesn't change anything. And the odds are with a 3rd round investment, the odds are against him being the answer. And nothing personal, but I'm not worried about PFF catching up with one of our posters. Quite the opposite really.

Not as good, better. Especially at run blocking.

Schwartz was a 2nd rounder, Coleman is a 3rd rounder. It's not a huge stretch. Again, once they hit the field, where they were drafted doesn't matter. Jason Peters wasn't even drafted.

Will he get to a Pro Bowl level? Who knows, that depends on his effort and his health. I see him as on his way to becoming a really good right tackle.

If Coleman had Hoyer throwing the ball instead of Kizer his PFF score would be higher.

We can all speculate. But that's what it is. No more, no less.

You saw Schwartz PFF scores and you saw Colemans. So you just keep on talking and we'll see how it all ends up.

Schwartz also got significantly more help. Browns led the league in running backs and tight ends staying in to block.

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2013/12/8/5179010/browns-vs-patriots-the-sunday-five

Meanwhile, with Thomas out, we're dividing help a lot more between LT and RT than we have in previous years. Usually, it's the RT getting all the help because the only guy who needs help on JT's side is the guy JT is blocking.

Another thing going for Mitchell Schwartz - He played next to Oneil Cousins, who didn't really give Schwartz and opportunity to give up any pressure or sacks because he himself was giving it up every play. I'm only half kidding, too, I think he was so bad it prevented anyone else from looking bad.

And, to be fair, Mitchell Schwartz was a fantastic pick. He's not elite. He's PFF's 24th highest ranking tackle. For a guy who has been in the league so long, that's about as good as he'll get.

Shon Coleman is at least an absolute hulk getting his first season as an NFL starter. I find it hard to believe he won't improve: When he does, we'll have a better idea of what he's capable of.

I don't know why people are so mad at Shon Coleman. Given the circumstances, it's been a really positive season for him. I don't think the Browns will be in the RT market moving forward.

Well, that explains the last couple of games.

Some people are really reaching to make a poor player look better.

The only person who is reaching is you. You're bent out of shape because a player left two years ago under his own volition, and there is more than a few reports that he signed with KC in spite of the Browns twice offering him a contract larger than the one he signed - both times he turned them down and threw a tantrum over money. The first time, it would have made him the highest paid right tackle in the entire league.

Nobody is claiming anything to make a poor player look better. Shon isn't playing great. He started our red hot, but he's struggled in recent weeks. Patience is key when it comes to the development of a young player. That's just common sense. Most people have zero interest in throwing Shon Coleman in the trash pile just because he's a young player who is playing inconsistent football.

And all this over a player who is decent. Again, Schwartz is PFF's 24th highest rated tackle. It's not like he's the new Joe Thomas. He's a relatively average 28 year old tackle.