DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer Rnd 6 ...

Isn't the reason Sashi got fired because Hue complained about not having a QB to win with? Passing on Wentz and Watson.

Are you saying Sashi made a good selection in Kizer?

Obviously I'm fine with Kizer.

Do you really know the reason Sashi got fired? Has anyone spilled the actual dirt? Probably not.

Pretty sure it's not QB play.

There's plenty of other issues on this team.

To your point, Kizer did not get off his primary target here....

Jordan Zirm Verified account
@clevezirm
on the incomplete pass to David Njoku that forced the Browns to punt and gave the Packers another chance to tie, Seth DeValve didn't have a defender within 10 yards



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I agree - if you are THE guy, then you have confidence in yourself no matter what. . . just like the 6th round QB taken by the Pats in 2000.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/02/new-engl...hbo-real-sports

Rewind back to 2000, when Brady was just a sixth-round pick. One of his first interactions with Kraft was a prescient one. Via CBS Sports:

“I always remember him coming down the stairs at the old stadium. He said to me, ‘Hi, I’m Tom Brady.’ And he looked me in the eye and he said, ‘And I’m the best decision this organization has ever made.’”

=== If Kizer is the guy, and he's good enough to be considered a franchise QB down the road, he shouldn't worry about a QB competition.

I think he was just being painfully honest.

I also don't he gets traded. I see this...

1st overall QB pick, Kizer, Hogan (ties to Dorsey I think)

we may get one via FA but I doubt it.

if we draft a QB #1 then i hope kizer is traded.

not looking forward to the constant QB controversy threads that will happen. that's one thing i'm glad we haven't had to really deal with this year.

I hope he is traded too. That kid is too good to be a backup. He is gonna shine someday, and not on this crap team with the attitude the fo/staff have.

If I was Kizer, and I read that article and it's how things are, I'd be pissed. I'd be like ...see ya later dumbasses.

thanks for the read Vambo.

pretty much my line of thinking as well.

I believe all of this to be true. Since QB has been an ongoing problem for some 20 years, I believe we will draft a first round QB and pick up a FA starter. I also think that someone will throw their entire draft at us for that first round pick, including those in the top 10 looking for their Franchise QB. Kizer, the first rounder QB, and the Veteran will duke it out to see who starts. Probably the vet at first. Kizer is not out of the running. He is playing like a rookie QB on a terrible team. He will improve drastically over the off season.

Yep. We need to take a QB next year with our first pick. Kizer might shine down the road, but he might not.

anything less than that would be foolish my friend.

hell i'd be happy to draft two QB's in the top ten if it means we finally get our guy...

been dying for a QB since Kosar days.

Rookie might shine or might not.

Rookie might show a more accurate arm.

Or not.

There is a reason why Kizer went in the second round. You don't take a QB with his deficiencies at #1 (hopefully).

Right. You're not saying anything we don't already know, Ed.

Throwing to an open receiver shouldn't be used as an example of a QB not going through his reads. If someone is making the conclusion that Kizer doesn't go through progression using that play as example is misguided.

If your 1st read on a progression is open no one grading film faults a QB for throwing to them.

And you can take a still of any play and point out open receivers on the backside of play or the opposite side of mirrored play concepts.

It's a contested throw vs a non-contested throw. I understand your point, however. Kizer did hit Njoku in the chest.

Jordan Zirm Verified account
@clevezirm
the amount of times Kizer fails to see his checkdown is alarming. he got sacked on this play after leaving a clean pocket. look at Crowell on the left


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Zirm also tweeted this out afterwards,



https://twitter.com/clevezirm/status/940048043532984320

What I'm starting to wonder is if Kizer is allowed the freedom to actually come off his first read. There are plenty of examples from that game showing Kizer going through his progressions, but on key third downs, Jackson called throw side slants and Kizer didn't try get to his second progression - three times, off memory, and Kizer locked on each time. And each time, it was less open.

I think Hue is calling intendeds, and crapping the bed in key situations because he won't put trust in his players. The latter two examples were unspeakably transparent. The Njoku pass you've posted, and the OT interception, were essentially the same play. Isolate someone and have him run a slant. Both times, the linebacker flowed and the corner pressed heavily.

My first annoyance is that neither so much as suggested a run was possible. The Njoku play, Johnson motioned from the slot to the backfield but it was clearly never run. It's only 3rd and 4. Make them defend it. Instead, you see the DE over Njoku's side never initiate contact and instead try to defend the ball from a slot pass. The corner allows the outside knowing it's an inside pass so he can easily recover. Meanwhile, the safety flows over to put additional pressure on Njoku. They literally sold out three players purely to shut down that route.

It was even worse in OT. Kizer is lined up in the shotgun with no back in the backfield. It's THIRD AND TWO and they bring four. THIRD AND TWO and they know it isn't a run. Why? If you want that route working, you want them selling out to stop the run. Hue doesn't seem to even consider that.

Early in the 4th, on the failed 3rd and 2 run, they sold out to stop Crowell. 9 in the box, 8 sold out on the run, but Gordon got a clean release on an inside slant. Which we know works, Kizer hit Gordon on the 3rd and 1 slant in the 2nd QB because it was U/C from a run-heavy formation that they had to defend.

With so many blatantly obvious examples of this specific call, it suggests Hue desperately wants that match up. That level of desperation isn't conducive to, "Just take it if you've got it." Yet he doesn't even scheme it open with simple misdirection when it matters most, even though it worked twice previously but failed both times without the run sell.

He's oblivious as a head coach. I think he accidently gets it right sometimes, but when it matters most, he's not capable. It put Kizer, Njoku and Gordon in impossible situations when they had to overcome the defense knowing exactly what they were doing. It led to a drop and an interception.

This won't stop while Hue Jackson is the head coach. I feel sorry for the next rookie who gets here. Kizer can't overcome this, and the next guy won't either, the only question is if Haslam is willing to admit it or not.

1). If Kizer can audilbe a QB sneak on the four yard line.
I think he is allowed to come off his first read...he just doesn't like too.

2). that's how I feel about Kizers throws.

1) A pre-snap audible is very different from encouraging post-snap decisions in short yardage throwing situations. Firstly, Kizer is much more familiar with pre-snap adjustments. He was allowed the freedom to change protections and make some audibles at ND but their system was a spread that predominantly gave Kizer intendeds.

And I don't mean, "This is where your progression starts" when I say intended. I mean, "This play is designed to get him open, get him the ball."

But, to be fair, I don't think you're wrong. I think anyone is on crack if they think a rookie is going to walk in to the NFL and be perfect on his progressions. It just doesn't happen.

Andrew Luck was the most "pro-ready" quarterback I've ever seen, who was breathtaking in going through his progressions in college while running a pro-style offense with NFL-esque routes and concepts. He, as a rookie, completed 54% of his passes and threw 18 interceptions because he had a real problem with not going through his progressions and locking on to his first or second read.

Personally, I think it should resonate with you that for Hue Jackson's system to actually work, the rookie quarterback has to be absolutely perfect in making full-field reads. I just don't know any rookie who has ever been that guy, pro-style or otherwise. Wentz, Wilson, Luck, etc. None of them consistently made full field reads, and Luck was the only guy consistently asked to do so.

As for Kizer's throws, that too is true, but I still don't understand this 'only one' mentality. Kizer has a lot to work on, but that doesn't mean Hue Jackson does not. I don't know why the Jackson fans seem to honestly believe there is no criticisms to be made. It's just objectively wrong. At least Kizer is a rookie. Hue Jackson is in year two and he's still go issues that his players have to work around.

ok I am a tad tipsy so I will try to respond in kind, kind sir.

I do understand the difference between the pre/post snap reads.

I take it you're saying that Hue sends in plays to kizer, this play is for Gordon, he should be open get him the ball.

something like that? round about and laymans terms? cuz Im just a die hard fan that played football 30 years ago in high school for two years lol

If that is the case then I think that Hue would be handicapping him.

If that is the case that would explain the staring the WR down the whole time.

Andrew Luck did do those things, but I think he has underachieved his draft status overall in his short careerr.

In Hue Jackson's system the QB absolutely has to be perfect, But I see a lot of throws to WR's and another was soooo wide open.

Hue does have things he has to work on, I agree completely.

From what I have read Mitch Trub over there in chitown, they are doing one installment at a time with him. when he gets used to one they install another.

From what Kizer said (read it somewhere) he said that Hue throws the whole book at him and says learn it.

not sure which method is better

but if true that is a lot of plays to learn inside an out at once.

He wasn't really open, ed. Furthermore, you used one clip to prove he does go through his progressions and that clip was not very indicative of that.

Look, I get that this is a black and white issue w/some folks. There are some that say he has no chance and that he stinks. Others, defend him constantly and refuse to address any of his issues.

I look at it like this:

--I would not give up on him. He has done some good things.

--He's very young and inexperienced in a pro-style offense. There was bound to be some growing pains.

--He has the physical attributes one would look for in a qb.

--He has struggled w/accuracy.

--He does lock onto his primary receiver too often. One clip that shows he does or doesn't isn't proof either way. However, I watch the games and it is obvious that he locks onto his primary receiver way too often.

--He holds the ball too long. That is due to not adequately reading the coverage.

--He has shown growth and maturity.

--He seems to be a hard worker.

--He has improved over the course of the year. His mechanics were more sound this past game.

Bottom line: He might grow into the type of qb that can succeed. He will need to improve his accuracy [I think that can be accomplished] and he will need to read coverages and go through his progressions quickly. [I am less confident about this aspect of his game.] Thus, I think that we should not give up on him, however we should draft a QB w/our first first-round pick [provided we think one is worthy of such a lofty status.]

To be fair, Kizer has been thrown under the bus all season.

lol Kind sir,

I am a Browns fan because when I was 10 years old (1976) we went to my dads co-workers house for a BBQ for their Sunday football gathering.

Everybody was like "I got the Eagles", "I am a Raiders fan", and I am a "Dolphins boy"...etc...I was just listening until they were all done and looked at me.

lol did not know squat about the NFL...nothing...but didn't want to look ignorant...

So I looked at the tv and saw the Browns playing and nobody said them. so I said "I'll take them"...not trying to be a copycat lol

been with them ever since.

What's your poison? I'm a whiskey man myself. Had a few glasses of Jameson. Not tipsy, but a nice buzz. It is a good time to be kind sirs, kind sir. Cheers.



That's my opinion. No doubt, Kizer has his problems, but it seems like Hue doesn't put any faith in him in key situations. Sometimes, that works. In a 3rd and 1, Hue went with the RO that Crow took for 30-something yards. Kizer made the right decision to hand it off, and Crow broke a tackle. Little mental lifting for Kizer, big pay off. In the red-zone, Hue went with the shovel option. Touchdown, little room for mistake from Kizer. And, as mention, the earlier 3rd down conversion on that slant to Gordon. That was key.

These are good examples of Kizer being in a handcuffed situation. The play works, it minimizes Kizer's chances of making a mistake, but others are just really poor plays from Jackson, and Kizer isn't good enough to overcome a bad play that starts on the back foot.

Personally, I feel like when it does go wrong, Hue should have known better due to obvious issues - such as the passing that doesn't sell the run, as I mentioned.



Agreed on Luck, although I will say I think a dreadful team situation has influenced his play far too much. Something I maintain with Kizer, too, but Luck is a much better QB who has been dragged down by it. In my opinion, the QB depends on the talent around him a lot more than some think. A lot of people (Everywhere) think that it's all the QB. No doubt, they play the largest role, but it is still very much a roll. I feel bad for Luck, especially now that his career could well be over.

One similarity Luck and Kizer have is they didn't get babied in their rookie season. I feel like Hue has hit Kizer with everything. I know you mention Trubisky next, but to bring that up now, Kizer and Luck are/were in a much different situation to an RG3/Trubisky. Hue has already hit Kizer with everything, and he's been Kizer, but when it matters most, Hue seems to change his philosophy. It's not a bad thing, but I hate having a QB dependent on the play call working when I don't entirely trust Hue, either. If Kizer is going to F up, let him F up.



Good points. Personally, I like that Hue has thrown the playbook at him. He's responded absolutely brilliantly. I feel like Kizer's issues are his own but it hasn't extended to not knowing the plays. A lot of his struggles have been a result of his own raw issues, but from a mental aspect, I love the work he's clearly put in.

With Mitchell, I don't know what he's going to look like next year because he's been babied so much. Although, he's coming off a pretty fantastic game. It was still a lot of 1-2 progressions on half-field reads, but he showed a lot of signs that he can take strides forward.

I take that in to account with Kizer. I think he'll be a LOT better next year. I've said it before, but in an even competition, I think he spanks any 2018 rookie quarterback. Doesn't mean he will be a franchise quarterback, but I do expect a nice jump as a result of the situation he's faced this year that hasn't held anything back.

In such a situation, however, I expect Kizer to make his mistakes. What I'm tired of seeing is Jackson's mistakes cripple him. I can forgive a rookie for being a rookie, but Hue is far too experienced to be making someone like me say, "What the fudfsds are you doing?!"

Maybe so but it doesn't make sense to me in the big picture. IF Hue is on the hotseat or lame duck HC then why in the world would you let him draft a QB in his 'walk' year? Doesn't make sense. Imho if you're gonna draft a QB then its logical to fire Hue and let the new GM-HC combo draft their QB.



Couldn't disagree more about the bolded part of your post.

I think evaluating QBs is hard enough under the best circumstances but all the more difficult because of the lack of WR talent the Brown's fielded weeks 1-13.

But to each their own.

Case in point look at the supposed difference in Kizer's 'accuracy' last game vs the rest of the season.
Is it just merely a coincidence that 2 weeks of practice with Gordon and Coleman healthy that his accuracy has 'improved'?

I agree that Kizer needs to improve his decision making. There is development period that rookie QBs go through. And Kizer is a rookie that shouldn't even be playing right now...its natural for that his decision making needs to improve.

BDU-
Unless you are being hyperbolic...of course Kizer is allowed to go through his progressions and move on from his 1st read.

I don't think the twitter guys screencap is an example of Kizer not going through progressions. On that play DeValve and Njoku get open simultaneously. But Kizer is beginning his progression/read on the (L) side w/ Njoku's slant.

It is possible that Kizer missed a pre-snap read that would have led him to start his progression read with DeValve.

But his 1st read, Njoku, got open...I'm not gonna fault a QB for throwing to an open 1st read.

Agreed, it's not like he should've moved to his second read to see if he was opener.

I guess we're going have to agree to disagree on that one. I thought it was pretty straight forward and clear that Njoku was open.



I feel like you are trolling me right now...and I'm not sure you are being serious.

Dude I just want to talk some ball...really that's all... Let's just discuss some ball. We're gonna agree at times and disagree at times...but let's not get each others comments wrong when we can avoid with a quote.

But, I can't have a discussion when the someone is making an incorrect(maybe by accident?) claim about something I said.


Anyhow didn't say that the 1 vid I posted proved that he does go through his progressions.

I said that it was an example of Kizer going through a progression.

And I think its a pretty clear example.

Here's my post:

There were more examples of DK going through his progressions that I wrote down in my notes. I would post the vids of them....but it may be more work then its worth.

I didn't take the rest of your pass as pertaining to me.

As they say you never go broke taking a profit....unless your TE drops the pass.

(which reminds me that Hue dialed up a spider 3, y banana concept in the RZ pass to Telfar that Kizer missed)

Back when Andy Reid was with the Eagles on 'mic'd up' he would always tell McNabb: ~take what you can get as fast as you can take it

It's a west coast offense mantra that reminds the QB to take the throws the defense gives you as they come.

Are you serious? I was talking ball. I made a long post and you ignored almost all of it and came up w/some crap about me trolling you and not talking ball.

I am going to post part of it again and you tell me that is trolling and not talking ball.



Good God. How is that NOT talking ball?

Do you happen to have the cut-up on that one?

Nevermind, I saw it in the other thread.

I was talking about the 1st part of your post...you know with the false claim that I had to address.

I had no issue with the rest of your post.

Great discussion. Way to "talk ball."

My post that you responded to was all ball. You chose to make an incorrect claim about what I said in my post. And here we are. You can own up to your part or not. If you never would have misquoted what I said about that play (i.e. actual football) then we wouldn't be having this discussion. You can either acknowledge it as a mistake or continue to ignore it. Your call. I got some more plays to post. Gotta run.