DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer Rnd 6 ...

I think you completely misunderstood what I was saying. I was not trolling your or bad-mouthing you. I just don't think one play is enough to make broad generalizations........one way or the other.

I tried talking w/you about the subject and was actually looking forward to your comments, and instead I get some junk about me trolling you.

Whatever.

We can continue talking about the play or continue talking about this.

And again, I wasn't using 1 play to make a 'broad generalization' or 'to prove' anything. I posted that vid because like i said verbatim in the quote: it is an example




And:
I said it felt like you are trolling me because I couldn't tell if you being serious when you said that: The vid was an example. Just like other examples I've posted...take them how you want them.

Like I said earlier, i have plenty other plays in my notes where he goes through his progressions.

I don't see Njoku as open in that slide. Kizer still has the ball in his hand and the defender is breaking towards Njoku from 1 1/2 yards away. He's late with that read as Njoku should already have the ball in his hand at that point. Njoku WAS open on that play...but juuuust before that picture was taken.

He missed DeValve...it happens.

Interesting to see how Drango has his man completely erased...you can't even see him. Great mid-Rd pickup by Sashi.

I am actually shocked at how well Drango is doing. I was expecting a turnstile with him at LT. He is more of a guard. He is holding his ground much better than I expected.

"Shocked"...no. Pleasantly surprised...yes.

It's telling when people talk about the Browns players out-for-the-season that most people mention Ogbah and Collins.

Not saying that those guys are better than Thomas by any stretch ...but that we've recovered from Thomas' absence much better than we have that of Ogbah and Collins.

Agreed. Thanks Sashi.

Typical Kizer game today... Not good (sighs).

People didn't believe me after week 4 that Kizer would be out of the league in 2-3 years. Now maybe it is becoming a reality for them. Wake up!!!!!!

Kizer shows a little bit now and then, he's big, has a gun and good attitude. And you want to say he could be the guy. After all, he is only 21. But we HAVE to use No. 1 overall for a QB. We really, really have to. This is Dorsey's big test. He has the pick of the litter. Gotta get it right.

j/c:

Yeah, the Browns are 1 and 28 or something like that. Thanks Sashi.

Kizer frustrates me.

His lack of accuracy is a huge problem.

I watched him closely today and despite what a couple of posters are saying.............he stares down receivers on almost every play.

Finally, he makes some of the dumbest decisions a qb can make.

He might turn it around, but we have to take a qb w/our first overall pick.

Sashi is gone Dorsey is 0-2

Kizer is playing like a rookie QB. I don't really blame anyone for it. I blame the fans for actually have high expectations of him in his first season when it was obvious from the start that he would need to sit a few seasons and mature first.

I blame Sashi for forcing the team to have no real choice but to start Kizer.

Right under the bus:



https://twitter.com/clevezirm/status/942569313613111298

I took the above quote out of context. I posted the full quote below.



https://twitter.com/FauxIDs/status/942555074852720640

What did Hue say about Kizer in presser? I missed it.

So I guess that officially means qb #1 overall.

Still, I don’t like coaches trashing players in public like this. We don’t accept it when players trash the coaching staff.

Sashi is not coming back.

https://www.ohio.com/akron/sports/browns...-loss-to-ravens

Maybe I'm just a hard ass but I don't see anything wrong with the comment, especially taken in totality.

Okay............what did he say that was wrong?

I only saw the shorter version at first. It's not as bad as I originally thought. I will go back and edit my original post.

Vers. I couldn't see the game. Had to do Radio.

??? Is this accurate? Lol. Seemed like way too many times Donovan and Dieken were saying that Pass was High, this one was Low, caught off the Shoe Strings. The next one was Wide.

Is that accurate?

I'm frustrated. There's NO amount of Mechanical Fixing that is going to create an ACCURATE QB.

Kizer is what he is. And it was like this at Dame.

We CANNOT hitch our wagon to a QB who looks like his Ceiling is 52%-55% Completions, regardless of how strong an arm he's got.

We MUST go QB at #1. There's 2 bonafide picks and neither are a Locker, Ponder, Bortles.

This inaccurate BS pisses me off more and more every week.

Hue Jackson says it's fair to question if DeShone Kizer will 'ever get it,' and ponders benching him

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...ncart_big-photo

P.S. I've been wondering the same thing.

He was inaccurate, bro. Very frustrating. He couldn't even hit the screen passes. He threw one to Duke that was absolutely confounding. Even Kize turned his back after he threw it.

His mechanics look better than what they were in college. His front foot is not opening up as much as it used to and that helps. But man, he just makes some throws that are mind-boggling.

Here's what I see: when he's calm he's accurate, when he's not, he's not. All QBs throw bad passes. Wentz sailed one over the receiver's head and threw one at the receiver's feet his last game, but his ability shines when he calmly surveys the field, stands in and delivers. Trub threw three INTs his last game, even though they're bringing him along VERY slowly. Carr fumbled the game winning play last night.

All QBs struggle. Kizer is young, new at this, and lives under a microscope. The record isn't helping. He can be very accurate at times, and has thrown some great balls. To me, an inaccurate passer is a guy that can't throw an accurate pass. So many of his INTs and turnovers come from poor decisions, not bad passes. Throwing the ball at Dukes feet on a simple screen isn't an accuracy issue, it's a mental glitch because he was hurrying the throw. The fumble in the end zone? Stupid play call. Exact same situation, Crow ran for what, forty-fifty yards?

I've watched a lot of QBs over the last half century and I've seen guys that show promise but struggle early on. Montana was one of those guys. The leap from year one to year two was amazing. I see a lot of good things from Kizer. He's done some "great QB" things. Completing the pass while getting dragged down, running for the first down when the pocket collapse, and he's run some excellent two minute drives, for example.

I believe he will be a very good QB at some point. Sadly, it may not be here. But he has the tools. He does lock on to his WRs. He's going to need to overcome that, but again, I think it's a maturity, speed of the game thing. When he is calm in the pocket and his internal clock is working better, he should be able to survey the field more. Every QB locks onto their primary on occasion. The great ones look off a defender, or if the primary isn't open will slide his vision along the progressions until he sees one who is or will be, then fires the ball. That take skill and development, and Kizer hasn't gotten that part of his training and development down yet, in my view.

And of course, this is all JMHO.

His decision making is atrocious, he's is like Frye, where you can count on him to make 1/2 dumb decisions a game...

At this point, I think his accuracy is the least of my concerns...

Nice post, Cal.

Very reasonable and I almost hate to do this because your post was so logical and fair, but bro, I kinda disagree on the accuracy thing. I agree that he is accurate at times, but man, he just makes way too many inaccurate throws.

I understand where you're coming from, I do. And he has thrown some real head scratchers. It's the beautiful balls that make me believe it's a mental/hurried thing. But like I said, it's only my untrained opinion. We'll have to see over time. I do respect your take, though.

One example: When he threw that crossing route to Gordon and he had to reach back to get it. We're all thinking, "Hit the guy in stride!" Seems like an accuracy issue, but to me it's a timing, he needs to get used to the speed of the game, chemistry with the WR "thing". I think he "rushes" his throws. He's capable of putting it on the spot, just often hurries to do it, IMO.

It seems like a moot point discussing Kizer now since the overall media/fan consensus doesn't think he's the guy/see him play anymore. He's not a 1st round pick and as a result fans/media don't afford him that 1st round pick leeway.

But on the topic of 'accuracy'; I think accuracy is term that is far too loosely thrown around by football fans/media. For me its become a catchall term for missed throws that has no true measure. I've been in arguments with guys who swore that Dak and Watson were inaccurate. There are some people that think that some NFL pro-bowl QBs/league MVP are inaccurate.
Of course QBs will miss throws and the more throws a QB misses the worse of a QB they are going to be. If that is the threshold then all failed QBs are 'inaccurate'.

For me accuracy means the QB can put the ball where he wants.
And imho by the time a prospect is draftable QB 'inaccurate' QBs have long since been weeded out. QBs that can't hit what they aim at aren't draftable prospects imho (except for Hackenberg). And QBs aren't accurate/inaccurate in the same way. Some QBs don't even have the arm strength to make all the throws so how can they be more 'accurate' then QBs that don't even have the velocity to throw to certain areas of the field. And there will always be different throws certain QBs are better at then others.

The much more difficult assessment is why does a QB miss throws? NFL QBs won't by and large don't miss when they are well protected and the they know where to throw the ball and know which type of throw to make. So there are factors external to the QB that can effect their accuracy. Protection, quality of receivers, play calling and chemistry/timing etc.

I don't think Kizer is 'inaccurate'. In my book inaccurate QBs are not capable of making some of throws Kizer can make. You don't make some of throws he's made by accident or by getting lucky. Kizer isn't going to mistaken for Drew Brees but imho he's accuracy won't be 'thee' single point of failure to prevent him from succeeding in the NFL. I think his accuracy is NFL level.

The question becomes.....why does a QB miss some of throws he misses? I hope to one day quantify and sort a prospects pass attempts based on situation to get a much truer picture of their accuracy. Are they pressured? Are they off balance? Are their targets getting separation? What is the difficult level of the throw vs NFL average etc...but all this is digression. Basically making a distinction between 'forced' or 'unforced' inaccuracy. (and if you heard it anywhere else before let me know, because i'm claiming that term). And lastly, and imho most importantly what is an acceptable inaccuracy throw %? That is a question I would like the football media/fans that through the term around to quantify so 'accuracy' can be objectively applied.

Anyhow, Kizer missed some throws off the top of my head: the interception to Gordon, missed Coleman on a drag that was called back, wheel route to Njoku, low throw to DeValve...i have to check my notes for the others. Regardless against the Ravens Kizer missed too many throws. Last week his accuracy was good, this week bad and that's what you get with a rook.

Its no consolation but the Ravens pass defense is one of the best in the league and they've been tough against most QBs, established QBs they've faced (except for Ben or should I say Antonio Brown).

League average vs Ravens:
60% comp
6.6 ypa
14 TDs allowed vs 22 INTs
70.4 QB rating

Football Outsiders ranks the Ravens pass defense as #2 in the NFL

Like I said earlier its all moot in regards to DeShone's future because of the situation he's all but finished here.

But, yesterday was what happens when a rookie QB that shouldn't be playing faces off against one of the best defenses in the NFL and doesn't get a lot of support from his team AND pours his own gasoline on top of the fire to try to put it out.

Many thanks, ed. This is the type of post we need to further our understanding of the game. Good stuff...

Or he is like the weekend golfer who can hit that occasional perfect shot. It keeps his hope going that he is getting better, when he really isn't.

ed,
I disagree with you on only 1 part of your post. Inaccurate QBs ABSOLUTELY get drafted. The reason is because of your 1st point, accuracy is such a nebulous term when it comes to being a QB. Are you talking about being able to throw a ball through a tire from different distances? How about throwing a ball to a moving target? How about throwing a ball to a moving target with timing? How about throwing a ball to a moving target, with timing as well as proper placement (leading the receiver, back shoulder, etc)? How about throwing a ball to a moving target, with timing and placement, right before you're about to get crunched by a guy that weighs 3x what you do?

Accuracy is something that can be learned, depending on what the issue is holding back the prospect. Mechanics can be cleaned up (but not blown up and re-taught), pre-snap reads can be drilled, and timing can be improved. Reading the field during the play probably can't be learned completely, a throwing arm can't be strengthened all that much, and fearlessness (at this point in their career) can't be taught.
It's a difficult issue to diagnose and correct (accuracy). And with the lack of NFL talent at the position, teams are going to take chances on guys. I mean, we get WRs every year that are drafted and can't catch all that well...

Hogan's accuracy is so much better than Kizer's and we could have won some games because of it but Hue lacks the wisdom to figure that out. He threw Hogan under the bus with a horrible game plan. The buffoonery never ends with Hue. Hopefully Cincy takes him off our hands and rids us of this misery! Bench Kizer!!

If I allow the "Not enough reps" card to be played for Kizer then I must allow it for Hogan also. Not saying one is above the other just that they're both pretty much in the same boat.

Nice post, ed. Your take is a much more detailed description of my rookie/hurried/speed of the game theory. I think he will "get it", and probably sooner than later, but I do agree with you, the media and fans have all but written him off here. Which is not only ridiculous, it's a damn shame given our QB history. We finally have potentially a good one, and no one has the patience to find out for sure. Sucks to be a Browns fan.

I don't think it's like that at all. For me it's more like the pro golfer that struggles to get his first PGA win. He has all the tools, is getting the training, but hasn't put four consistent rounds together yet.