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Let's take a look at the roster as it stands today:

O

Thomas, Bitonio, Tretter, Zeitler, Coleman as starters. Drango, Martin, Reiter and a bunch of ??? as backups.

We need Thomas to return and Coleman to improve. Drango has been a very pleasant surprise and our depth here with Martin is pretty decent. This is a good group with 'some' depth. I don't see us getting too drafty here unless Thomas hangs it up.

Kizer, Kessler, Hogan

We need a lot of help here... a lot. I think all but Kizer will be gone next year. I expect we will draft a QB 1st overall, maybe even add a second guy later on and look to add a vet FA.

Duke, Crow, Dayes, Vitale and the new guy

I won't be surprised if Duke is the only holdover to '18. Lots of RB depth in the '18 draft.

Njoku, DeValve, Telfer and a couple other dudes

I like the potential of this group. I think Telfer is the most-replaceable guy of the (3) named here. I don't expect us to spend a high pick here.

Gordon, Coleman, Higgins, Louis, Coates, and some guys who either can't catch or get open...or both

I like the first three guys named here and the rest are take-em-or-leave-em types. We'd be nuts to NOT draft a WR with a top-ish pick...I think we need a vet too.

D

Garrett, Ogbah, Nassib, Shelton, Coley, Ogunjobi, Brantley, Orchard, Meder, Edwards

I like this group. We really need one of the interior guys to show the ability to penetrate and we need another pass-rusher...even if just a situational vet type. In this group I often wonder what any of these young guys would look like on a veteran DL where they weren't one of the better players along the line. Specifically, Coley, Ogunjobi & Brantley...even Nassib. I'll be surprised if we use one of our first 6 picks here.

Collins, Kirksey, Shobert, Burgess and some guys

Something is missing here and I'm not sure what. I like the four guys named here. I think Peppers should be put back in that hybrid role. I won't be surprised if we use a one of our first 6 picks here if the right guy falls.

Taylor, BBC, McCourty, MJ, Peppers, Kindred, Nacua, Smith, Currie and some guys in jerseys and Wilson

We obviously need corners and a FS. I'll be shocked if we don't use one or two of out first (6) picks here. BBC and Taylor were dinged up a lot this year and Wilson never played. There are some good players here, but we need a stud back there.

Colquitt, Gonzo, Hughlett

I think we are set here. Gonzo really improved from a shaky start.

Needs: QB, WR, RB, FS, CB
Wants: DL (pass rusher and penetrating DT), LB, TE, OL

I don't think the roster is bad per se...but the lack of experience is astounding. There are a lot of pieces to work with and some of these guys are likely moreso career backups as opposed to starters.

This team gets better in a hurry if we can address the (5) needs listed above. We've got (6) "high-ish" draft picks to that end.

I quickly put together this list when thinking about the roster. The following guys will be entering the vaunted 3rd year in 2018:

Ogbah
Kindred
Shobert
Nassib
BBC
Coley
Burgess

C Coleman
S Coleman
DeValve
Higgins
Drango
Louis
Kessler
Hogan

I expect a few of these guys to be out in '18. However, there are a lot of starters on that list and a lot of guys who start-ED a fair amount of games in their first two years. Not too shabby...especially if these guys get that 3rd-year-in-the-league bump in their play.

Spot on with Line Backing Corp...... Like you, I can't put my finger on it .. As a group they seem play a day late & a dollar short .. We know they can't cover a running on passing downs and don't even get me started on TE coverage , lol ..

I wonder how much of that is scheme ??

Good thoughts IMO. I think Brantley will stud out next year. He was showing signs this year.

If we get a QB, we probably need more on the defensive side of the ball from a numbers standpoint.

I think FA will be a big boost. I think we will sign a receiver, QB, maybe a O-lineman and maybe a corner and backer for the D..

If we do bring in 3-4-5 vets in to the mix....no, all won't be stars, just good players, we should improve in a hurry.

LB corp must stay healthy. Collins, Kirksey and Schobert are good enough ... Burgess might be good depth. We might need to add someone here too

I'm no scheme expert...but having essentially no Safety help sure seems like it would make their job much more difficult.

Good thread so far. I honestly think they if we get a QB, we will get better fast.
But what do I know?
Anyways, good read so far.

New guys always tear it down before putting their favorite ideas in place, So, here we go again.

I am sincerely hoping Dorsey doesn't but there is always that risk.

We need to let WR Louis walk...he's a [censored] poor WR, and made a ton of errors on special teams with lackluster effort at times...I'd keep Higgins as our bottom guy, and look to improve the top spots...Imagine a core of Jarvis Laundry, Josh Gordon, Corey Coleman, Christian Kirk, Higgins...I mean I'm sure Miami will try to retain Laundry, but thats a stacked set of weapons for Rosen (or whomever)

Do You think they could coach Louis into a better version of himself that you wouldn't want to let walk?
I think it's possible.

It will be interesting to see who we can add in FA and/or trade. Per Over The Cap $108.7M in effective cap space. That's more than 30 other teams with only the 49ers having more space than us. $108.7M is more than the Falcons, Cardinals, Jaguars, Patriots, Dolphins, Ravens, Giants, and Cowboys combined.

One of the problems with signing FA is the stigma of playing for the Browns. But if we target keys players, we should be able to outbid other teams for most of them.

I actually thought it was smart to target OL last year in FA (even though letting Mack and Schwartz go was dumb) .. we looked at the draft class's weakness and went after FA in that category

The thing that bothers me about the roster the most is when I look at it, I don't see a winless team there.

You see an inexperienced team. Inexperience, which has led to many individual mistakes at critical times in most games. It's not one small group of players either. It's all of them. They play pretty well for the most part while taking turns screwing the pooch at the worst times. Of course, there's also the well below average QB play which doesn't help a bit.

quote by 'peen above:



No kiddin'.

Had the team been properly coached, had the players been ready to compete, had there been a demand of excellence in training, preparation and execution, the Browns could have easily played .500 ball.

Of course the players love their buddy Hue.

The Browns will never see 5 wins with Hue Jackson as coach.

Same here...I actually see sound OL and DL, and low talent on impact positions, apart from MG, Gordon and Duke.

That should be enough to be competitive in most of the games and win a few.

What I worry the most is the lack of accountability and the losing team mentality... I think the regime made things a lot worst, to the point that they are defending a 1-31 project.

With this mentality I don't think we can win even with a probowl roster, not in a sport where in every play there is a good chance of a career ending injury.

Now, I can't even imagine what players think when a 1-31 coach is lecturing them...

Based on some normal growth and development - the roster is really not far away at all. It's not hard to expect significant improvement.

Simply add a veteran QB like Smith or Cousins - we're already potentially a 5 win team without changing anything else. You figure Kizer cost us the chance to win 3 or 4 games with ill timed turnovers or just rookie, 21 year old mistakes and development. Add a WR that catches the ball, you've got another major improvement. I don't think I am relying on josh Gordon, but if he stays clean and comes back and plays 16 games - that's a quantum improvement.

There is some excellent talent in the draft - including OT ... so getting a read on Joe Thomas and whether he thinks he's coming back and for 1, 2 or more years would be important. If Joe is coming back I'd really want to target skill players like Minkah, Rosen/Darnold, Barclay with the first 2 picks. . . if there is any doubt about JT, I'd really think it important to get his replacement. Not sexy but smart.

j/c

I am not interested in signing a free agent WR. I'd rather draft one. I think a lot of people forget you need a QB. If we had drafted Michael Thomas over Coleman, we'd be singing the similar tune that Thomas was a bust. We need that quarterback.

Fitzpatrick would be huge for this defense. I think over anything he is our no brainer draft pick. I think then you get Peppers into a hybrid role with Kindred as SS. I was disappointed in Taylor. He's one to me that says he'll try harder if we are winning or his job is on the line.

We aren't far off from being able to win.

Can't see Fitzpatrick + Kindred + Peppers playing, that would not make sense, except in special packages.

Kindred was actually a nice surprise and IMHO he is an above average safety.

I can only see us drafting Fitzpatrick if Williams gets fired (which I think he should) and we assume Peppers is a bust (which I think he is).

If GW stays, see us most probably improving on the CB position through draft and FA....

Same here. A whole lotta addition with minimal subtraction should do it. Easier said than done when the right QB still isn't here yet.

Mostly when you don't have the right coach that cannot find a workable QB in more than 10 players he had at his disposition...

We have lots of teams with good Qb's that don't go anywhere, and we have some teams with bad QB's that win championships.

We also have lots of teams with average QB's that are competitive and win some games in a season.

But most of all I think we have to get rid of the losing mentality, install accountability and don't accept cheesy excuses.

In a game where every play can mean a career ending injury, you cannot accept excuses on the lack of performance of players, coaches and teams.

This was the root cause of our problems, if you think it were just the 10 QB's we had, you are going to be up for a rude awakening....

Why not both? I think we can draft a quality WR after round one, but very few develop quickly. By adding a veteran WR, you get the benefit of his experience & skill immediately. You can let the drafted talent develop at a non-pressure pace, not to mention the leadership a solid veteran would provide to a group that desperately needs it.

One thing (amongst a couple others) that bothers me is that we consistently hear that our WR's run poor routes. Why? Are they not being coached up properly? Perhaps someone on here can fill us in on the degree of difficulty in coaching/training for this characteristic...

Every thread must turn into a "Fire Hue" thread.

I’m sorry to the Hue supporters on here but I agree, I think this roster was better then 0-16, I may be wrong, but felt a lot of other coaches could have done better, but then I was never a Hue fan anyway, didn’t really understand why he was such a “hot” cordinator when we brought him in. I’m assuming the “plan” was they wanted someone who would be good with a young drafted QB. That never materialized for probably many reasons. The man I hoped for was Matt Praticia from NE, but I’m a defensive guy at heart.

I’m not really asking him to be fired now, but would like answers to why we are keeping someone who hasn’t shown he can be successful, it’s just a hard pill to swallow for me. Even though we brought in a ton of players the last two years, and I’m not a Sashi supporter either, didn’t understand a lot of his moves and draft picks, but you can’t tell me this roster wasn’t good enough to pull out 3-4 wins this year. Playing Kizer was a huge mistake, and not relying on the run more was a mistake, actually I don’t really see where Hue has helped any of the QBs he’s had while he’s been here. We were all told this guy was good with the QBs, thought that’s why he was brought here. But if that’s where his reputation was built and he couldn’t show legitamite growth in any of the QBs he’s had, well that’s another hard pill to swallow.

the one guy from Detroit thought we had more talent than 20 teams or whatever.

I wouldn't go that far, but we also should have won a freaking game

Because we pick up the wrong type of Wr's... Wr don't run the routes on vacuum, most of the times they need to beat the CB on release, and guess what, very few of the Wr's we have possess that talent.

Been watching our Wr's and many times they run the route the defense want's, except for a few exceptions like Gordon...

I developed a very simple rule of thumb to assess the quality of WR's, and usually it works out great. The higher the WR cushion, the better he is. Same goes to accessing CB quality, the larger the cushion, the worst the CB.

There are good and effective WR's that are not great with press coverage, but most of the times it requires a great pass protection or QB mobility to let the route develop...

j/c

When I think of this year's FA period I also think about all those existing guys coming into their 3rd year. It sure seems as if we could use some vet help/depth, but when do some of those pending-3rd-yr-guys become that vet presence/depth/help? They won't be depth until/unless they are upgraded-upon...by others with youth or experience. They won't be vets until they are...whenever/if-ever that occurs.

I think the most-logical areas to target in FA are one each of the following: QB (long-term starter or bridge), WR, CB & S...maybe just CB or S rather than both. Maybe consider LB & RB if the right guy is out there. I'm not suggesting that we will sign 4-6 viable FAs...just that that's where I think we should focus.

If they think Wilson is a candidate to help at CB that would be huge and might impact the FA search at DB. I think McCourty should think about moving to FS. He's got more in him at CB, but maybe A LOT more in him at FS. Imagine signing Trumaine Johnson, McCourty moving to FS, and getting a stud CB in the draft? (1) pick and (1) FA. Instant upgrade...no?

Someone said it earlier or in another thread and I alluded to it in the OP...but...imagine Ogbah on a team like Jacksonville...or BBC on a team like NE...or even Higgins on a team like Pitt. All (3) guys are coming into their 3rd year and have a TON of playing experience. I don't think talent is as much an issue as inexperience...although the ailment and the symptoms are the same either way.

I realize that we/fans tend to over-value their own players...I get that...but we aren't talking about 5+ year guys suddenly getting "better" next year. I'm talking about promising young players...who should not have seen the field as starters until next year...coming into their 3rd year with a great deal of starting/playing experience. It's the upside of the uber-rebuild...now it just has to work.

I think the roster will look quite a bit different next year. I think Dorsey will use free agency and the draft to bring in a lot of players. I think guys like Louis, Taylor, Nacua, Coates, etc are going to be looking for employment.

I really, really hope that these bad WRs are all crap canned. Get rid of Coates, Louis, etc ... keep Gordon, give Coleman one more shot, sign/draft 2-3 impact WRs

I think Coleman main problem is that he is not good with press coverage, he was never good at it, he's was an explosive WR at college, but that does not work at NFL level.

You can go back at the draft profile analysis and see that he would hardly bee a good player. And for sure he was never a #1 WR in my eyes...

" Does his best work from outside the numbers, but lacks desired NFL size to play outside. Allows cornerbacks to leverage him against the sideline on deep throws. Takes longer than expected to gear down for comeback routes after hitting top speed. Ran limited number of simple routes. Hands are a concern. Fails to catch away from his body. Dropped 10 passes for a drop rate of 11.9 percent. Loses focus and concentration on routes that work towards the middle of the field or when he senses defenders are closing in. Had sports hernia surgery that forced him to miss his bowl game."

I think 2 years past, this is still a correct assessment on Coleman...

I wouldn’t mind seeing him lined up in the slot more, maybe put him there permanitly. I don’t envision him as a Welker, or Edelman type but think he could put pressure on the safeties from the slot. Open it up underneath for some other guys running crossing routes, TEs, Outside WOs. But that’s not really how the air coryell system works.

I think the roster looks a lot different Opening Day 2018...nature of the beast even for good teams.

Imagine this:

Upgrade WRs such that either Louis or Coates are WR #6. I could live with that as they both play STs and are big guys. Higgins probably becomes WR #4-#5. That means we've picked up (2) new guys.

Upgrade QBs such that Kizer sticks for now and we get (2) new guys.

I think Crow is gone...for better or worse. That's another (1) guy.

Upgrade the DBs such that BBC, Taylor & Wilson are CBs #3-#5 and MJ firmly at #6. There are a lot of guys on our DB roster that will be gone or churned...probably (3) guys easily.

That's (8) guys right there without looking at backup OL, LB & S fodder and Orchard and Edwards on the DL...could easily be (6) more guys on top of the (8).

No doubt there are a lot of areas on the roster that need upgraded.

Been doing some research on Dorsey and his tendencies to see how the draft might go. This is what I found out.

He values QB, DB, and edge rushers very high.

He really likes bigger press style corners.

He really likes to draft DBs

He likes to draft WRs but not early.

Same with RBs

Really likes OLineman and DLineman and will take them all through th draft.

What does this mean? Not sure. Maybe he won’t see value at WR or RB as high as we are drafting in the first. He also if I remember hasn’t taken either in the second round. At least not with KC.

We'd be somewhere if we'd taken this approach from the start. I didn't hate Couch but the lines would have been the place to start. Cleveland wasn't a new NFL city. We understood how teams were built and didn't need the glam positions first. We wouldn't have balked if we drafted in the trenches. Water under the bridge I suppose..

Interesting...appreciate the effort. That'll give us more to discuss during the deadzone leading up to the draft.

There’s a whole breakdown of positions he’s drafted and UNDFA he’s brought in, I’ll try and find a link

Links

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit...._dorseys_draft/

https://www.google.com/amp/chiefswire.us...tendencies/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/brownswire.us...hiefs-wire/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.cl...s_gm_john_d.amp

Thanks for the info, dean!