DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Cousins Part II

Yet when you think about it, a lot of our QB troubles are by doing exactly as you suggest we do. We pass on top rated QB's and draft one later. We pick the third or fourth rated guy while we ignore the top guys.

Forgive me if I don't suggest we follow down that same path.

That's fine. As long as they do their due diligence and their homework and get it right for a change! Going on past draft picks (with exception to a few notables such as Sipe and Kosar, some could argue our QB draft woes extend as far back as Phipps!) I think I am forgiven for being a tad worried we might botch it up again.

To me, the key to your post is, "Cousins is a good quarterback. He has proven that." In 20 years, the Browns have not had a proven QB, in his prime, as Cousins is. A proven QB, not an unproven rookie. A QB with no injury concerns, no concussion issues, no footwork problems, no questions about his ability to read defenses, no windup issues, no questions about his ability to move in the pocket, no questions about him being able to feel pressure. The most proven QB to reach Free Agency at this stage of his career. EVER. Proven. No Questions of his ability. No crap shoot.

If the Browns do not go for Cousins, you have to seriously question the Front office's desire to improve the team. All the complaints about Hue, have to be tossed aside. The Browns have the 5th toughest schedule in the NFL next year. A clear chance for another 0 - 16. The Steelers, Ravens, and Bengals schedules are not as tough.. Why ?? Because they play the Browns twice each.

I want to see the Browns succeed. I want to see Hue succeed. Against next year's schedule, the only way I see the Browns winning any games is NUMBER 1.. SIGN COUSINS. As Vers pointed out last year, yes .. the Browns will improve in the draft and Free Agency, but so will the other 31 teams. Make the effort. Pay the man, get some other quality Free Agents, then build thru the draft. We have only tried to improve greatly 1 time since the return, and made the playoffs that time. No more half way measures.

JMHO

This makes me wonder if bringing in Scot McCloughan was primarily to get his take on Cousins. Interviews and meeting a player in person is a big part of the decision making process. But it's one thing to Interview a guy and have him in for a workout and a whole nuther thing to have spent a season or two around him.

I know McCloughan said Cousins is not special but there's always more behind a statement like that than meets the eye/ear.

j/c:

Decent discussion in the most recent round of posts.

I want to throw something a bit different out there. Most of the conversation is about whether or not the Browns should go all in for Cousins. That's a worthwhile conversation.

However, what if you are Kirk Cousins? Why would you choose the Browns?

I can only answer that question by using my own personal feelings on the situation. If I am Kirk Cousins, I look at the Browns and see:

Positives:

--Lot's of cap space
--Many upcoming draft picks
--A solid FO
--A respected HC.

Negatives:

--Browns are 1 and 31 over the last two seasons
--Lack of talent/production/experience at WR and TE
--A town whose media and vocal fan base wants the coach fired
--An owner who fires coaches/FO personnel every year

Bottom line: If I am Kirk Cousins, I could get over the Brown's recent record and lack of production from the skill players because of all the draft picks and a pretty good FO in place. However, no way in the world would I want to go to a team where the fan base and media are calling for the HC to be fired and the owner has a history of firing people. No, I would want to go to a team w/a more stable environment.

Moral of the story: Sometimes, Brown's fans are their own worst enemy.

I think we can with a QB and good use of our picks.
We now have Haley in charge of the O....a big upgrade. We will end up using the players who help

We still have Hue....that could drive Cousins away, but all Hue has to do is remember where he put his red flag when someone upstairs tells him to challenge a call and call time out when his associate head coach tells him to call one.

1. Dorsey, Highsmith and Wolf are all highly respected FB guys.
2. Hue Jackson is a highly respected coach.
3. The cap space and the draft picks
4. The belief that with FA and the current draft picks the Browns are actually looking like a team that could dramatically improve (if the three gents in #1 get it right).
5. Best LT in the league, however, you can't expect him to be there this year, let alone the 4 years you may sign as a contract.
6. The fans
7. The history of the club
8. If you win you will literally be a hero in a city that would be more than willing to trade LeBron and a Cavs championship for a Browns one.

I'm sorry, but no way in the world would I choose the Browns if I were Kirk Cousins and it all starts w/how many fans want Hue fired and that we have a trigger-happy owner. No way would I sign w/a team who might lose their HC during or immediately following the season.

Hell, just look at the mindset of peen in the post prior to yours. Nope, too many dumb ass fans who get the ear of the owner for me to sign w/that team.

I agree with that.

I doubt Cousins sees that side of the fanbase and even if he does he will know how to drown the noise out. Pretty sure a lot of the players ignore the distractions from fans and journalists, social media, criticism etc. Otherwise, it would be too much for any person to handle.

All of us fans want the same thing....to win. But, we will always have differing opinions as to how to get there. As we have had years and years of losing it only exacerbates the passion and patience has worn thin.

I doubt that Cousins is impressed by the Brown's history and I think he knows that he will be revered in any location if he wins.

I am being truthful. No way would I sign w/a team if I thought their HC was probably going to lose their job. That is far more important that the Browns winning a championship in 1964 and winning a few in a league that does not exist anymore.

Once again...........our fans and media outsmart themselves.

You would think it a plus the fan base wanted a 1-31 HC gone to get rid of the loser mentality. He was fired from the Raiders at 8-8 and players still want to go there.

If we win, Hue wont lose his job.

If we throw $$$ at FAs and have another great draft and we continue to bottom out and only win 3-4 games. He loses his job and at that point I will say, rightfully so.

Not sure what the magic # will be to keep him.....maybe .500 given we are 1-31. Maybe higher. But, I do believe we can dramatically turn the team around if we get the right players in both FA and Draft.

But, last year we all spent a lot of time and energy talking about JG and it never happened. So, I am not getting my hopes up. I am fully expecting Chase Daniels, Matt Moore, Bradford or McCarron to be signed and drafting a QB high. This is why I asked you a few questions last night about Rosen and spent 30 minutes watching video of him.

I agree with Verse. Hue should be fired and replaced before we go after Cousins. If I were Cousins, I wouldn't want anything to do with a 1-31 coach. I blame the fans as well because they haven't been vocal enough for Haslam to listen.

Read the posts before and after yours to get a sense of just how messed up our fan base is.

LOl....well, maybe, OR, maybe he isn't as thrilled with a coach who hasn't been able to win a game for this team. I don't count a blocked kick as coaching us to a win.


I really don't want Hue fired. I don't. I just don't see how he is going to be able to coach well enough to keep his job. Maybe with all the help we have brought in they will be able to help prop him up.


It's all about wins. You seem to blame Shasi for all out woes. No doubt he screwed up not drafting a QB last year. That cost him his job.


I don't think Hue is a team player.

I think he is way overrated as a coach.

He isn't a head coach.....he is a coordinator.


So call me a dumb ass....I can take it, not do I care. I have come to know you and know there isn't a coach you don't like....good or bad. That's cool. As you said, we all have our opinions.

History says Hue has had the worst 2 year run in NFL history.

History is history. It doesn't change until people try to make revisions.


Plus, IMO opinion the dumb ass to get the ear of the owner was Hubris.


I will ask you a question.....how many years do you think it will take Hue to get HIS record back to .500 as the Browns head coach? 2-3...7..12, NEVER?


I think never.


We are wasting time with that guy.

Thanks for articulating why Cousins won't sign here. Nice job.

He isn't going to not sign here because of me. You give me way too much credit.


If he listened to me, he would sign.



I want him, you don't.

Offer him 5 years, 170 mil, 70 mil up front, 25 mil each year for the last 4 years. Fully guaranteed. A very team friendly contract. Then see what he says. If he says no, then we tried and offered him the best we could do. We have to try. We would still have cap space to proceed. After all, we just paid more than 15 mil this past year for Osweiller to play in Denver.

I think some are looking at this wrong...

First, I don't want Cousins... but saying you don't think he'll sign here because he wants to win is a bit crazy. If that's his reasoning, then I don't want him even if I did.

I would want him to feel he could come in here and carry a franchise. Not the other way around. I want him to think he would be the reason his HC keeps his job.

There are at least two maybe three quarterbacks in the draft who welcome this challenge of turning around a failing franchise. Allen, Mayfield, and I think Darnold have all seemed to embrace the idea of being a Cleveland Brown.

If Cousins is offered a great deal from the Browns and turns it down for less money to go somewhere else... he's simply telling you he couldn't do the job. I get the winning part, but my quarterback has to believe he is good enough to make a difference.

He has to show some of that cockiness and be a little arrogant about who he is and what he can do. If he doesn't, and doesn't want to be here because he "wants to win" he's the wrong guy plain and simple.

Cleveland Browns

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/Bar...rnwell#AFCNorth

1. Blow away the market for Kirk Cousins. The Browns have approximately $110.7 million in cap space and all the draft picks on the planet. They're the worst team in football and have no viable option at quarterback, which isn't anything new. Pro Football Reference's adjusted net yards per attempt index (ANY/A+) measures a quarterback's performance against league average and adjusts it for era. The new Browns have had just one quarterback post an ANY/A+ greater than the average mark of 100 over a 300-attempt season, and that was Derek Anderson a decade ago.

If you were Cousins and about to become absurdly rich regardless of where you decide to head this offseason, why would you choose the Browns? Why would you pick $100 million over three years from the Browns if you could get $90 million over the same time frame from the Broncos? Why would you pick the annual organizational chaos of Jimmy Haslam in Cleveland over the stability of the Jaguars or Vikings?

No, if the Browns want to be a credible choice for Cousins, they need to make an offer that fundamentally blows away whatever anyone else in the league is thinking. Cousins is set to become the league's first $30 million-per-year quarterback. If you're the Browns and you want to give Cousins something to think about, what's stopping you from offering him $40 million per year? You want a quarterback, right? The Browns could hand Cousins a five-year, $200 million deal with a $20 million signing bonus and $30 million roster bonuses in each of the first two seasons of the contract, guaranteeing him a total of $91 million over two years. Cleveland could then offer Cousins an opt-out after Year 2 if things go horrifically south, with Cousins pocketing a $30 million option bonus if he decides to stay. The resulting deal would pay Cousins $144 million over its first three years, which would be a totally unprecedented total:




That's probably the absolute ceiling of what a Cousins offer would look like. The Browns might be the only team in the league that can make this sort of proposal without kneecapping its roster, in part because they have so many players who will be on cheap rookie contracts over the next several seasons. This deal gives Cousins the chance to leave or renegotiate after two seasons if things aren't the way he wants while also giving the former Michigan State product one more trip to free agency at 34.

Cousins could theoretically ask teams for a fully guaranteed deal, but teams would likely reduce the money available to Cousins on a fully guaranteed pact, and quarterbacks with Cousins' leverage and track record of staying healthy are better off opting for a traditional deal with a higher ceiling than the elevated floor of a fully guaranteed pact.

Should the Browns do this? At the very least, it's defensible. Hue Jackson could go after AJ McCarron and take a quarterback with the first overall pick, but why should anyone have faith in the Browns to successfully develop a passer after the past couple of seasons under Jackson? All things equal, the Browns are going to have to overpay for talent. They might as well overpay for a franchise quarterback.

This is an organization that valued a second-round pick from the Texans at somewhere between $10 million and $16 million as part of the Brock Osweiler swap. Signing Cousins frees up a far more valuable asset -- the first overall selection -- to be used elsewhere on the roster. If Cleveland signed Cousins, the Browns could parlay that first overall pick into Saquon Barkley, a terrifying one-two punch at defensive end with Myles Garrett and Bradley Chubb, or trade down for a massive haul from a team in love with one of the draft's quarterbacks at No. 1 overall.

2. If they don't get Cousins, pay for a bridge quarterback in advance of drafting a QB No. 1, and don't make a serious investment in McCarron. Assuming the Browns don't persuade Cousins to make his home in Cleveland, they'll be in the market for a veteran quarterback and a guy with one of their two first-round picks. The logical move has been to link the Browns to McCarron, whom Hue Jackson nearly traded for at the deadline in October.

The infamous failed attempt to acquire McCarron actually worked out well for the Browns, who almost dealt second- and third-round picks to the Bengals to acquire the former Alabama starter. An 0-8 Browns team would have been trading for McCarron under the assumption that he would have lost his arbitration dispute with the league and remained under contract through the end of the 2018 season. Instead, McCarron won his dispute, which would have meant that the Browns would have been paying for the privilege of letting McCarron prop up a meaningless season before either giving him a long-term contract, franchising the 27-year-old or allowing him to leave.

The trade value Jackson was willing to offer suggests that the Browns would be interested in making McCarron a meaningful offer to take over as their quarterback. That would be a very risky proposition. If you're a McCarron backer, you can point out that he went 2-1 as a starter with the Bengals in 2015, left Cincinnati in line to win a playoff game over the Steelers before Jeremy Hill's improbable fumble and has a 93.6 career passer rating. All of those things are true.

They're also far from a complete story. McCarron took over an offense that was humming on all cylinders during what was a career year for Andy Dalton, and given Dalton's track record in every other one of his pro seasons, it suggests that the players around Dalton -- and, therefore McCarron -- were driving much of Cincinnati's success. The Bengals had one of the league's best offensive lines that year, with Andrew Whitworth & Co. combining to miss only two starts in 80 regular-season games. Hill and Giovani Bernard were both healthy and effective. Tyler Eifert suited up for 13 games. A.J. Green, Marvin Jones and Mohamed Sanu were in for full seasons. That offense oozed talent.

McCarron was worse than Dalton across the board save for a modest jump in completion percentage, which was due to the fact that his average pass traveled nearly one yard shorter in the air. Dalton's yards per attempt and passer rating were well above McCarron's. McCarron's sack rate was double that of Dalton, which is in part due to inexperience, but also suggests McCarron might not be the quickest to make decisions in the pocket. Dalton's Total QBR was 72.5 that season, which was good for fourth in the league. McCarron's was 54.8, which ranked 26th.

In addition, McCarron had virtually no success moving the football in that Bengals-Steelers playoff matchup. The Bengals scored 16 points in a game where he threw an interception and fumbled three times, one of which cost Cincinnati a likely field goal opportunity. The team racked up all of two first downs in the first half, and while McCarron improved after the break, the Bengals' two touchdown drives in the game each started from the Pittsburgh 45-yard line. It's true that the Bengals were in a position to win before the Hill fumble, but the Bengals crawled back into the game only after temporarily knocking Ben Roethlisberger out.

Is McCarron worth a shot as a bridge passer? I would say yes at the right price, but it's really about the right level of emotional investment. If the Browns sign McCarron and give him a shot before turning to the first overall pick if McCarron struggles, that's totally reasonable. If they sign McCarron to a multiyear contract, commit to him as their starter and don't otherwise address the position? That would be throwing up a prayer.

3. Re-sign Josh Gordon and Jason McCourty. Gordon is an exclusive rights free agent, so the Browns will have no trouble bringing him back. They could try to offer Gordon an extension with modest money up front and heavy per-game roster bonuses, which wouldn't be the worst idea in the world with the right protections.

Outside of Joe Thomas, who has suggested the Browns should start thinking about a future without their future Hall of Fame left tackle, McCourty is Cleveland's most pressing free agent in 2019. The 30-year-old had an excellent rebound year after being dumped by the Titans, and while the Browns have him signed for one more season at less than $3 million, now would be a good time to approach McCourty with an extension designed to keep him in the building through 2019 or 2020.

The other 2019 free agent-to-be worth mentioning is Duke Johnson, who plays a valuable role as the team's receiving back and would continue to serve as a safety valve for whomever ends up playing quarterback in 2018. Johnson could stick around at a deal just north of the three-year, $12 million pact James White signed in New England.

4. Don't overpay for a running back. It's understandably tempting for the Browns to draft a quarterback with the first overall pick and hope to select Penn State's Saquon Barkley with the Texans' selection at fourth overall. I don't think anybody could fault Cleveland for doing that if Barkley is still on the board, given how explosive he looked at Penn State.

At the same time, we don't have a ton of evidence that taking running backs at the top of the draft has really been a great idea. Trent Richardson was obviously a disaster. Ezekiel Elliott certainly delivered for the Cowboys, but Dallas passed on Jalen Ramsey to take Elliott, and Ramsey is a better player at a more valuable position. The Cowboys might look back and wish they had selected Ramsey and taken a running back like Jordan Howard later in the draft.

The Jaguars are happy to have taken Leonard Fournette in 2017, but is Fournette the best back from his draft class after Year 1? Third-round pick Alvin Kamara is certainly a different sort of player, but he was far more productive than Fournette last season. Third-rounder Kareem Hunt might be the most complete back of the class so far. The Jags shouldn't regret taking Fournette, but what would have happened in 2017 if they had drafted Deshaun Watson?

Barkley could be a better prospect than any of those guys, and the Browns do need a running back with Isaiah Crowell hitting free agency. Barkley could turn out to be a transcendent superstar. It's also not difficult to imagine Cleveland getting more out of waiting to draft a running back -- or signing someone like Dion Lewis in free agency -- and using the fourth pick on NC State pass-rusher Bradley Chubb, Alabama defensive back Minkah Fitzpatrick or the draft's best offensive tackle.

5. Acquire a free safety and add help at cornerback. While Jabrill Peppers has the athleticism to play just about anywhere, his rookie year suggested that the Michigan product is likely best as an in-the-box safety. Unfortunately, this isn't a great market for free safeties. The best option is Lamarcus Joyner, who had his first excellent season as a pro while primarily playing free safety in 2017, but he could still return to the Rams. More likely, the Browns will have to use one of their many draft picks to find a player capable of playing center field.

Hues a highly respected OC and very well thought of as an offensive mind ...

I’d be shocked if hes highly respected as a HC ... he is however in a perfect situation to become highly respected ...

And all that really matters at this point ....is that we all hope he does ...

No doubt I am talking about the Hue of the Browns. Not the Hue from elsewhere. I don't care about that.



I hope he regains some respect as Hue of the Browns. He has 1 blocked kick win in two years, and some people are upset that I can't get behind that.

Absolutely agree. The ‘challenge’: if you are up to it and perform, you will have a statue erected at the stadium entrance...

It's not gone unnoticed how you set up a scenario that if the Browns do start winning with Hue as the HC all of the credit will go to everyone but Hue for it.

Actually Hue set that up all by himself.He did that by shifting the blame to everyone else. There's nobody left to blame now.

Your hate is real.

Ditto, and bravo. Well said.

I fully expect the Browns to show significant improvement simply because of the people we've added the past two years, amount of picks in a good draft, the expectation that a better QB will be on this roster, and we have a different offensive coorindator. Both the HC and the FO are in really good spots right now.

Once again, I agree with everything Bone says here. But I think a lot of people are expecting instant results. The thing to remember that as much quality as we get in this draft class, they will all still be rookies. We can expect a learning curve. The rookies from last year (and here I include S. Coleman) should be better. The team, overall, should be better just by growth of the 2nd and 3rd year players. If this FO is as good as we all hope, then the Browns future looks bright. But this year will not be the year we make the playoffs.

Trying to diss a QB because he looks for the best possible scenario to play in makes zero sense. Putting yourself in a worse situation on purpose would make him the fool.

Out of all the options ... McCown is the one that makes the most sense so i hope he’s our bridge QB .. he fits the definition in every way for what our version of a bridge QB is ...

I really hope the Jets get Cousins .. that would open the door for McCown to come here ...

I want to see the Browns put out the effort to get Cousins. If he says no, then he says no, but no effort makes the new Front Office seem like "same ol' Browns."

I think the Browns need a Plan A, Plan B, Plan C, etc., and need to communicate this to fans. The need for transparency is obvious. Where working behind the scenes is good to try to get the players here, the closed mouthed policies of the past will just create more animosity. We have seen too many times where other teams have made trades, or signed players and wondered.. Did the Browns even try to get them?

To get the players in here and fans in the seats, the FO needs to show they are willing and able to do what is needed to improve the team.

...We've won 1 game in 2 years and saw little to no progress from our young players (particularly on O.)

How should the fan base feel?

Would any fan base handle that much losing well?

Steelers fans were wanting to get rid of Tomlin after a playoff season.

A lot of fans have stuck with the team despite years (decades) of losing. Winning fixes a lot.

The thing that gives me a small inkling of hope with Cousins is proximity to his family in Michigan whom it appears he is really close to. He owns land on the lake.

I'd focus my pitch on that. I'd also probably mention the investment in keeping the QB upright through the OL, and have JT make an appearance.

Great. I think the guys an idiot. I don't veil my feelings.


I know that will get both you and Vers mad at me, but I don't care. I still consider both of you good friends.

I just don't think the guy is a good head coach. I don't like him. He's a "me" type of guy.


Again, this is just my opinion....Me, mine, I....I don't expect to change anybody elses thinking. I am not even trying. I am just expressing my opinion on a message board.



Hope you are doing well my friend.

We are not friends and we all know your feelings on Hue because you feel the need to say the same damn thing five times a day.

Just a casual observation....


We are all here just "talking," sharing our opinions but it seems there's 2 or 3 who are just looking to divvy up teams for a dodgeball game.


I wonder how upset some would be if a poster frequently expressed how much he/she loved Hue? I wonder if it's the difference in opinion or the frequency at which someone expresses their opinion that is most upsetting? Hmmm...food for thought.

I heard that Joe Thomas said on his podcast that the Browns are not going after Cousins. I guess our veteran QB options have narrowed even more.

I'm guessing it would be the same two posters who would be equally upset if the opinion was reversed. The rest of us would just continue the daily debate as normal.