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Quote:
That's a pretty good skill to have and when it comes to this area Rosen from what I've seen on tape isn't on par with the other top prospects.


So, you are going to ignore what his coach, scouts, and well respected draft guys have said and stubbornly hold onto an opinion that was based on not watching all of his games?

Sometimes it's best to just admit you were wrong. Or, if that is too much for the ego to handle, perhaps just stay quiet and hope no one rubs your face in it.

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edromeo Offline OP
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lol

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Nothing that I am aware of.

You challenged me repeatedly about Rosen being able to move in the pocket. I was willing to let it go, but you wouldn't let up. Thus, I posted several articles that proved he can move in the pocket. You then ignored them and are sticking to your guns.

Look ed, you don't know more about Josh Rosen than his freaking HC does. You don't know more about him than scouts do. You don't know more about him than Cosell does.

Give it up. You are making a fool out of yourself.

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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
You challenged me repeatedly
My tone was conversational. I was seeking discussion.

The fact that you view seeking a discussion as a 'challenge' isn't my problem. Some people actually come here to discuss football and exchange view points.


Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
You challenged me repeatedly me repeatedly about Rosen being able to move in the pocket.
Pure lie.

Quote where I said anything about Rosen's ability to move IN THE POCKET.

Quote it. I'm waiting.

We are all waiting.

Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
You are making a fool out of yourself.
You lie, fabricate and purposefully misrepresent my argument for what? Then you say insult me?

You are what is wrong with football message boards. Some people actually want to talk football not have to put up with your lies and misrepresentations. Imho you bring this forum down.


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reading that edge rusher or more important the disguised blitz. That will take time.
But also the WR must be on the same page for that adjustment


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Whatever ed. I provided articles that disproved your claims. You counter w/personal attacks.

Rosen can move in the pocket and avoid rushers. That is a fact and your personal attacks do not change that fact.

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Let me post this again...............It comes from Jim Mora, his HC at UCLA. The same Jim Mora who coached in the NFL.

Quote:
“He has a great feel for where there’s going to be a spot in the pocket, where he can set up and shuffle into and find time to get the ball down the field,” Mora said. “He’s as good as I’ve ever seen in doing that. He just has this innate feel for where the rush is and being able to slide up to buy time.”


But ed, watches one game and tells us that Rosen can't move and buy time in the pocket. We are supposed to believe ed--the self-proclaimed qb expert over Rosen's HC. You know, the same ed who said Cody Kessler was a better qb than Carson Wentz. The same ed who said RGIII was accurate and could read coverages. The same ed who said Kizer was accurate and could go through progressions quickly. The same ed who says Tyrod Taylor is a very good qb.

I gave you chances to stop. You refused. You reap what you sow, ed.

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But he can't scramble and run like the great RG3 can.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Whatever ed. I provided articles that disproved your claims. You counter w/personal attacks.

Rosen can move in the pocket and avoid rushers. That is a fact and your personal attacks do not change that fact.
No Vers the articles you posted don't disprove anything I've said. The only thing they prove is that YOU are perfectly willing to fabricate a strawman argument.

You can't quote anything where I've insulted you either. You can't claim calling you a liar and troll aren't insults because both are true that's what you are and what you do. This exchange proves it.

You can't provide any quotes where I've said anything negative about Rosen in the pocket.

If you can post them.....we are all still waiting.

You are completely full of it and i'm sure anyone reading this exchange can see that.

You feign interest in actually breaking down film. When engaging in discussion rather then discuss differing view points you attempt, in vain, to shout them down with your lies, fabrications then insults. And when called on it you just double down.

You and your disgraceful antics bring this place down.

But, either way i'm moving on.

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you both are starting to sound alike

In phone mode I only can see a couple of words drugged up I soon have to scroll up n read the name...Im like ok this is vers posting style I get to the name of the poster...ooops its ed not vers...lol
Just letting you know smile


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I had high hopes for this thread.....

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Quote:

You can't quote anything where I've insulted you either. You can't claim calling you a liar and troll aren't insults because both are true that's what you are and what you do. This exchange proves it.


Classic.

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Originally Posted By: edromeo
Grimm and dean,

I'm gonna quote myself here, lol, but here's part of my observations and comment from the Rosen's USC every throw cut-up that i think fit this current conversation:

Quote:
Limited in terms of mobility. Did not avoid sacks or escape from the pocket to extend plays. Did not throw on the move. Didn't bring much to the table this game in terms of playmaking or improvisation....His bad plays came in bunches mainly starting in the 3rd Q after the pressure/hits/sacks began. Couldn't get the offense going though. Had a bad RZ turnover and 2 other dropped INTs..


link to post:
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1395454/edromeo#Post1395454


So i noticed some of the same things you guys mention and Mayock mentioned.*

Originally Posted By: GrimmBrown
He can manipulate the pocket well, but there is still some small concern with me in his ability to deal with free rushers. He will stand in there and deliver, but he hasn't always gotten back up. When there aren't open receivers, he can hold the ball too long and take extra hits instead of throwing it away. Having free rushers as well as not having open receivers are things he'd probably see here often enough to be a concern worth considering.


Originally Posted By: dean_fairchild
I don’t know exactly what Mayock was trying to articulate there but the way I took it was that what Rosen does struggle with is when he has to escape the pocket he has a much harder time then when he can just slide away from pressure within the pocket. I personally think Rosen does well when he moves around in the pocket. Can he run away from pressure? Probably not.


Rosen's escapability and playmaking (scrambling) doesn't compare to some of the other 1st round QB prospects in this class.

*If you guys want to discuss some of these types of play from the USC game I charted them by time stamp and category...I would be happy to post them as gifs

Cont. discussion of USC game:

@ 1:46
@3:49

@7:20

@10:05

@10:23
^^That's a pathetic attempt from the RB...ole! Not much any QB could do there



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I tell u now Im really confused. I know its just shorts...but he Josh Allen looked so smooth and hit all his throws. I was impressed.


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I'm beginning to think that this class might rival 1983 after all. Maybe not in terms of greatness but in the number of good QBs in this draft.


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Originally Posted By: dawg66
I'm beginning to think that this class might rival 1983 after all. Maybe not in terms of greatness but in the number of good QBs in this draft.
I think all of these QBs (Allen, Baker, Darnold, Rosen) all could be good NFL QBs. I don't have this group rated as highly as last year's or the year before though.

Every QBs has different strengths and weaknesses, they offer different flavors. None really separates themselves from the others. The good thing is that SB and HOF QBs come in all different shapes and sizes.

Over the years I have much better success predicting which QBs will succeed after the draft.

Situation matters.

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Combine and overall QBs thoughts......

Oddly enough the QB that looked least accurate to me on tape (Allen) I thought by far threw the ball the best at combine from both an arm strength, footwork and ball placement.

Allen looked confident in drop and just let the ball rip. Dude has a hose.
His ball placement was more consistent then the others and he didn't have any really wild misses that I saw.
It makes sense that he looked good though...the combine throwing sessions are based on 3-5-7 step drops and Allen comes from that type of offense.

But, again on tape Allen was the least accurate of this class.

I thought Rosen looked good ball. But I have to admit I expected him to shine in this forum...this type of throwing session is in his wheelhouse and he didn't light it up like I know he can. I thought he being cautious both with his footwork and with his some of his throws at first but he settled in and threw some nice ones. But, I know he's the best passer in this group from his tape.

Baker looked comfortable and threw the ball with confidence but his footwork, like with many spread QBs, was kinda all over the place (taking 2 instead of 3 etc) but he threw on balance. He threw the ball more or less the way it looked on tape, on target for the most part good but not great velocity..feet need work.

Mentioned Lamar in his thread but he was up and down. I think he and Rosen showed some nerves because both missed early but settled down. When he did put it together you could see the ease of his velocity but I thought he was aiming the ball and should have just let it rip like Allen did. He did make an effort to match his feet to the drop the drill required but i thought he was being cautious like Rosen was early. I've definitely watched both of them take much more confident and explosive drops on tape then they showed at the combine. I think Lamar showed more of the 'bad' Lamar that sometimes pops up on film where he misses a throw that makes you think of Favre's worst and not enough of the 'wow' Lamar throws arm talent. But, that's kinda of who he is right now. Like with all these prospects they'll all have to be better in the NFL then they were in college. And Lamar is going to have on consistency and that's what you saw. You're gonna have to live with some of his misses in exchange for some of the wow.
With Rosen you're gonna live and die within the scheme of the offense and pass protection but right out of the gate he's gonna be the best at running and executing the scheme. And you're gonna be a little nervous about injury. With Allen you're gonna bank on your coaching staff making him look more like the QB you saw at the combine then the QB you saw on tape. With Darnold you have to figure are the turnover issues going to follow him? Can you live his throwing motion? It didn't appear to be a problem in college but the NFL is faster...you've had QBs with funky throwing motion kick tail like Rivers but you've also had other where its an ongoing process Bortles.

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Not sure how to embed youtube videos, but this is a link to Greg Cosell breaking down the Qb's


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R7FUzc3rlE


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Originally Posted By: Jester
Not sure how to embed youtube videos, but this is a link to Greg Cosell breaking down the Qb's


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R7FUzc3rlE
I watched it sometime last week. Greg also brings good insight.

What did you think?

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Originally Posted By: Jester
Not sure how to embed youtube videos, but this is a link to Greg Cosell breaking down the Qb's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R7FUzc3rlE



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Good stuff .. thanks for sharing ...

Bummed he had no film to break down .. i could listen to that guy ALL DAM DAY ...

I ALWAYS LEARN a bunch!!!

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Are you doing any QB film breakdown this year?

Although we didnt always agree last year it was still informative.

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I been buried since the first of the year ... i have some time now ...

Some time later this week or next i’ll go through what u have done and go give watch and give my take on some of it ...

I really enjoyed what we did last year ... that was fun and as u said informative ... i learned and thats why i come here .... weather u believe that or not .. *L* .. i was dissapointed i couldn’t participate this year ...




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https://www.si.com/tech-media/2018/03/07...flow_twitter_si

ESPN Replaces Jon Gruden’s ‘QB Camp’ With Show Where Russell Wilson Talks to Draft Prospects

Russell Wilson will host a limited-run series for ESPN in April in which he will interview four of the top prospects in the NFL draft, the network announced Wednesday.

The series serves as a replacement for the popular “QB Camp” with Jon Gruden, who left ESPN in January to become head coach of the Raiders.

The Wilson series will be called “QB2QB” and feature interviews with quarterbacks Baker Mayfield, Mason Rudolph and J.T. Barrett, as well as running back Saquon Barkley. (The episode with Barkley will be branded as “QB2RB.”) Mayfield and Barrett are somewhat similar to Wilson—undersized quarterbacks who are comfortable outside the pocket.

Wilson will speak with the players about “making the transition from college to the NFL, winning and losing Super Bowls, being the face of an NFL franchise, starting over with new coaches, and building relationships with teammates,” ESPN said. He will also discuss the “mental conditioning” of his “cognitive coach” Trevor Moawad.

All four 30-minute episodes will premiere on April 17, nine days before the draft.

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I'm disappointed ESPN didn't have the foresight to plan for Gruden leaving.

The QB sit-downs were easily the best thing that network did.

I can think of bunch of people on their own network that could have taken over. ;(

I'll still watch though.

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Originally Posted By: DiamDawg
I been buried since the first of the year ... i have some time now ...

Some time later this week or next i’ll go through what u have done and go give watch and give my take on some of it ...

I really enjoyed what we did last year ... that was fun and as u said informative ... i learned and thats why i come here .... weather u believe that or not .. *L* .. i was dissapointed i couldn’t participate this year ...
No worries. There was very little discussion this year. CHSDawg chipped in though.

Having the QB game tape discussion is my favorite event on the forum after the mock draft; look forward to it if you have time.

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nvm.

Last edited by GrimmBrown; 03/07/18 07:40 PM. Reason: Can't keep track what I read where.

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Originally Posted By: edromeo
I'm disappointed ESPN didn't have the foresight to plan for Gruden leaving.

The QB sit-downs were easily the best thing that network did.

I can think of bunch of people on their own network that could have taken over. ;(

I'll still watch though.


Totally agree.

I don't mind them doing QB2QB. They usually have some kind of player interview series anyways, but I'll miss it being a coach.

I wonder if they just didn't have any other ex-coaches that were charismatic enough?

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Originally Posted By: myka
Originally Posted By: edromeo
I'm disappointed ESPN didn't have the foresight to plan for Gruden leaving.

The QB sit-downs were easily the best thing that network did.

I can think of bunch of people on their own network that could have taken over. ;(

I'll still watch though.
Totally agree.

I don't mind them doing QB2QB. They usually have some kind of player interview series anyways, but I'll miss it being a coach.

I wonder if they just didn't have any other ex-coaches that were charismatic enough?
Some in house choices:
GREG COSELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bring back Jaws
Steve Young
Tom Jackson
Randy Moss
Matt/Tim Hasselbeck, Mark Brunell, Ryan Clark, Darren Woodson, Trent Dilfer, Teddy Bruschi

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
more QB breakdowns

Steve Palazollo PFF on Good Morning Football

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Originally Posted By: edromeo
Originally Posted By: myka
Originally Posted By: edromeo
I'm disappointed ESPN didn't have the foresight to plan for Gruden leaving.

The QB sit-downs were easily the best thing that network did.

I can think of bunch of people on their own network that could have taken over. ;(

I'll still watch though.
Totally agree.

I don't mind them doing QB2QB. They usually have some kind of player interview series anyways, but I'll miss it being a coach.

I wonder if they just didn't have any other ex-coaches that were charismatic enough?
Some in house choices:
GREG COSELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bring back Jaws
Steve Young
Tom Jackson
Randy Moss
Matt/Tim Hasselbeck, Mark Brunell, Ryan Clark, Darren Woodson, Trent Dilfer, Teddy Bruschi

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
more QB breakdowns

Steve Palazollo PFF on Good Morning Football


...I think they are waiting for Hue to get fired. angel


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Originally Posted By: edromeo




so the first throw was an easy read, easy throw that was on target.

second throw, another clean pocket, that lead to an easy read and easy throw across the middle.

the first run of the game. notice how he runs? he doesn’t run upright. he runs low, keeping that center of gravity as low as possible, like a running back, but he avoids contact until somebody has to tackle him front side/behind.

the second run, same thing for a touchdown.

third throw of the game, o line was leaky, he’s essentially backpedaling, but makes an on target throw in the middle of the field thats dropped.

so on the 4th throw, it’s 3rd in 7. he has a somewhat clean pocket, but clearly he feels the blitz coming, and makes an inaccurate throw.

third run, again, is just the fastest player on the field. hits open field so fast.

5th throw, clean pocket, throws an accurate dart over the middle for a completion. it takes this guy zero effort to throw the ball.

4th run was just a simple design run for a few yards. nothing special.

6th run was a read option. the o line absolutely sucked, and not only did the rb who didn’t even get the ball get blown up, but lamar had nowhere to go with the ball.

7th run, another designed run, nothing special for a few yards.

so the 6th throw. this is where his lower body mechanics becomes a problem. he had a clean pocket, but his stance is so narrow that he throws behind the WR for in incompletion. now, the ball was indeed tipped at the line, but thats not an excuse for his narrow stance.

7th throw, bootleg, and he threw the ball accurately on the run into the flat for a completion.

8th run was a read option, ran and got the first down

9th run, another read option, easily runs and gets the first, but also runs out of bounds to avoid contact.

so the 8th throw. right now you can clearly see him reading the field and going through progressions. he has a clean pocket, but again, his narrow stance makes for an inaccurate throw to an open receiver down the field. just above his arms.

10th run, runs into a wall.

so on the following play, he actually climbs into the pocket, like you want your QB to be able to do, but the line is so bad that he climbs into the pocket, only to get sacked.

9th throw, he gets blitz, and dumps it off accurately to his RB.

10th throw, another pass to the RB in the flat.

11th throw, he rolls to his left as if he’s running, but is always looking down field, and then does a shovel pass to his receiver for the first down.

12 throw was an accurate throw on slant, again with the narrow stance.

what would’ve been another throw, another bad job by the o line, and he gets sacked while keeping his eyes downfield.

13th throw, clean pocket, narrow stance, overthrows the receiver, who was well covered anyway. clearly, arm strength is there. but that play ended up being PI on florida state.

14th throw, inaccurate for an incompletion, clean pocket.

15th throw, clean pocket, narrow stance, throws a beautiful pass into the end zone for a TD, 26 yards. accuracy is there.

11th run, designed run, picks up about 5.

12th, read option, runs into two defenders for whatever reason. dumb, but picks up yards.

13th run, it’s 3rd and 1, he keeps it, easily picks up the 1st, but isn’t actually tackled. just stood up and stopped due to forward progress.

14th run, he starts off with a clean pocket, goes through 1st and 2nd read before pocket begins to collapse, and then proceeds to make the defense look stupid on a long run.

15th run. how in gods name is he so fast? he was already at the second level before any defender touched him, easy run for a 1st down.

so, the 16th throw. open receiver, but leads this target too far into the boundary. narrow stance again, clean pocket.

16th run, 5 yard pick up down the middle.

17th run, defense was reading run the entire time, lamar gets stopped short of the first down on 3rd and 3.

18th run, easy pick up for about 7.

19th run, designed run, but #73 gets absolutely blown up by the defender and lamar gets tackle for a loss.

17th throw, clean pocket, narrow stance, throws an accurate ball in the middle of the field for a long gain.

20th run, read option, easy pick up for about 8.

18th throw, clean pocket, he throws a beautiful accurate pass that is DROPPED in the end zone.

19th throw, clean pocket, throws an accurate ball to his receiver for a 1st down

20th throw, pocket is breaking down, but he moves within the pocket and throws in the middle for a completion.

21st throw. throws a beautiful and accurate bomb to a WR down the field, but its DROPPED in the end zone. theres no QB that would’ve thrown it any better. right in the breadbasket.

21st run, it’s 3rd and 1 with 40-something seconds to go, and its a read option. he pulls it back and takes off for the 1st, putting the team in FG range.

so, he’s 13/21, for 61.9%. with 3 flat out drops.

the thing is that this is a common theme with Louisville. i’ve watched multiple games, and lamar jackson IS the offense. he has to play with shaky talent at the WR spot, an ok RB, and a terrible o line.

notice how he runs the ball? he doesn’t run like a typical mobile QB. he runs with a low center of gravity, allowing him to avoid contact. he isn’t a physical runner, which is why he doesn’t get hurt. and actually the main reason he never gets hurt, he rarely ever looks for contact. and when defenders tackle him, its mostly from the side or from behind, because he already put a move on everybody. his agility, and ability to make subtle cuts in limited amount of space is absolutely next level.

so thats why i don’t get the comparisons to RG3. he’s definitely more like Vick, because Vick had the same running style that allowed him to stay healthy in his career.

Lamar runs like somebody running an offense designed for that. RG3 runs like he’s trying to show defenses he’s tougher than they are. those are completely different running styles. and one absolutely leads to more injury over the other.

also, his throwing motion is fine. its his lower body mechanics that need to be worked on. but guess what? all the “experts” say lower body is the easiest to fix, as it just comes with repetition. he had plenty of arm strength, can CLEARLY make all the throws.

and one thing that a lot of people refuse to acknowledge: he ran pro style concepts at louisville. you can see him clearly going through progressions. he isn’t running the spread. and his eyes are downfield more often than not, as he isn’t looking to run the ball on passing plays, only if he has to or gets fluttered with the rush.

he has shown that he can absolutely operate in the pocket, that he can make plays from within the pocket, and doesn’t get hurt when he decided to run the ball.

the things he has to work on as a passer is what most college QB’s have to work on as a passer. the only QB in the draft that has hands down better mechanics than him is Rosen.

but Rosen can’t make defensive coordinators lose sleep at night trying to figure out how to defend against him. Lamar can.


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