DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2018 NFL Season 2018 NFL Draft Lamar Jackson cont.

No, you should’ve done exactly what you did.

I’m sorry I want to talk football. I thought you liked those discussions. My bad.

i didn't say anything personal about you. come on bro seriously?

Baker is much better built than Lamar. He is a lot thicker and more solid. Lamar is extremely thin for his height IMO.

At what point does the fact that he actually has not been hurt in college while other top QB prospects have factor into the discussion about Lamar's injury risk.

Doesn't it seem more logically and accurate to say that despite his frame and despite the fact that Lamar has taken more hits then the other top QB prospects he's has not been injured.

And when you project forward to the NFL, Lamar is going to run much less then he did in college and the other prospects are going to be hit more often then they were in college.

While Lamar will be running in the NFL less than he does in College. But he'll still be running more than the other QB prospects. That's one of the things that makes him who he is.

We’ve seen that style of play get teams to the playoffs and Super Bowls.

Then we.......agree?

Lamar, who was not injured despite sustaining more hits then QBs that actually were injured, is going to be running less in the NFL then he did in college and therefore will be subject to fewer hits in the NFL then he was in college where again he wasn't injured.

The QBs that were injured in college will get hit more in the NFL then they were in college.

Which one should be considered the injury risk?

It's also gotten guys injured, and/or forced guys to change their style so that they don't take so many hits.

I don't think that it's easy enough to say "Well this guy got injured on this hit in college, so he's more susceptible to injury than Lamar.


I think it is fair to say that Lamar Jackson's game leaves him more open to injury that QBs in the NFL that take far less hits.

Especially with his slender body.


But that's something Lamar is gonna have to make sure he has down. Ability to scramble and run the ball, while protecting himself from huge hits. Cause getting hit by Terrelle Suggs is just different than getting hit by some random underclassman from Boston College

I think if were are speaking rationally about injury risk at some point actually being injured or not being injured logically has to come into play or what are we really talking about?

Actually being injured is real.
The "risk" is completely unsubstantiated perception.

Imho almost any rationale someone comes up with about injuries in the NFL is plausible because the injury rate is near 100%. All players, QB included are likely going to get injured. Whether or not style of play matters is perception that has become accepted but never proven. (don't take my word for it...check out the research http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/spo...jury_prone.html )

All i'm saying given 3 prospect 2 of which actually sustain major injuries while being hit less then the other prospect how can that prospect that wasn't injured be considered the injury risk?

Agreed. No doubt that Lamar is going have to become a master at avoiding contact.

I *think* you said that it doesn't mater what style of QB (pocket or running) a player is - it is not possible to say/predict that one is more at risk than the other of future injury ... and you also seemed to say that any QB injured in College is more likely to be injured in the NFL because his past injury is a better indicator that he will be injured in the future than the style of QB he was *and* a QB who wasn't hurt in college is less likely to be hurt in the NFL regardless of what style of QB he is????

If you can verify that's what you said I'll respond.

I can only tell you that what you think i said isnt what I said. And since my discussion was with Petey and it was a good convo, i dont really feel like having another convo with you if this is the tone you choose to start it....so I'm not really concerned about whether or not you care to respond.

Obviously it's a public message board - I'm free to comment and ask and you are free not to answer. If you want an exclusive convo with a poster there is always the pm.

Lol, okay.

Ditch the Racially Coded Language, Lamar Jackson Is No One's Wide Receiver

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/27664...amming-national

There are many unknowns leading up to April's NFL draft, but one thing should be clear.

Lamar Jackson isn't a wide receiver. Not even close.

A Heisman Trophy winner who can effortlessly sling a pigskin 50 yards with the flick of the wrist while eluding a pass-rusher should not catch passes for a living.

Jackson should enter the NFL as a quarterback—and retire as one, too.

Yet some NFL pundits, former NFL general manager Bill Polian chief among them, say the former Louisville quarterback is better suited as a pro wide receiver, even if he didn't record a catch in college. The topic was one of the biggest stories out of the NFL Scouting Combine when NFL Network reported "multiple teams" requested Jackson test at the position. The 21-year-old said a team didn't specifically ask him to work out at wide receiver, stating he's "strictly [a] quarterback."


"His tape speaks volumes, but staffs can't see beyond their biases," one NFC scout told Bleacher Report. "He's black and athletic. Bias tells you he has to prove to you that he is smart enough. And if he can't, he's more valuable somewhere else because he's athletic. Lamar has to be twice as good, both mentally and physically. And he still can get Deshaun Watson'ed."

It's unfortunately a common development this time of year, when black quarterbacks seem to be held to a different standard than their white counterparts at one of the most important positions on the field.

But the film don't lie.

Jackson deserves the same opportunity to succeed or fail at the position as every other flawed quarterback in this draft. The question is whether he will receive it.

"I can't remember a faster guy lining up at the quarterback position other than myself," Michael Vick, a former Pro Bowl quarterback and No. 1 NFL draft pick, said. "… He just does things that you just don't see or haven't seen in a long time."

Considered by most talent evaluators to be among the top five quarterbacks in a class with Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, Josh Rosen and Baker Mayfield, Jackson has the most exciting film for a quarterback prospect since Vick. He became the first college player to record 3,500 passing yards and 1,500 rushing yards in consecutive seasons, proving in one of this decade's most extraordinary college careers that he is more than just a scrambler.

Lamar Jackson at the NFL combine.
Lamar Jackson at the NFL combine.Gregory Payan/Associated Press/Associated Press

With 69 touchdown passes and 27 interceptions on 1,086 attempts in college, Jackson proved he's capable of making good decisions and can make every throw needed to succeed in the NFL. The two-time ACC Player of the Year, voted by the conference's coaches and media, carried the Cardinals with his ability to make a special play at any moment, whether that's throwing a dime to win a 2016 game against Virginia or gliding around Florida State defenders with his legs.

"If you don't think he can succeed at quarterback, I think you're wrong," Philadelphia Eagles defensive end Chris Long said. Long has followed the Jackson stans and critics as they duke it out on his timeline over the last year and tweeted out his two cents during the combine March 2. Of Jackson's critics as a quarterback, he said: "I think it's kind of an interesting take because there are so few, and you're taking a chance on any college quarterback these days. So why him? Why is he different?"

The argument for Jackson at wide receiver starts with his athleticism and slender build, listed at 6'3" and 200 pounds, then continues with his mediocre throwing accuracy. Jackson completed just 57 percent of his passes during his three seasons with the Cardinals and never surpassed 60 percent in a given year.


"[He's] short and a little bit slight, and clearly, clearly not the thrower that the other guys are," Polian, a current ESPN analyst, said on Golic and Wingo in February. "The accuracy isn't there. So I would say don't wait to make that change [to receiver]."

Jackson was more accurate than Allen, who is white and completed just 56.2 percent of his passes in 27 games with Wyoming against lesser competition, yet no one is calling for him to pursue another position.

"Stats are for losers, in my opinion. The guy won," ESPN draft analyst Mel Kiper Jr. said on a January conference call when asked about Allen's completion percentage. A month later, when asked why he doesn't believe Jackson is a first-rounder, Kiper responded, "It's the accuracy throwing the football."

Where they do that at?

Josh Allen at the NFL combine.
Josh Allen at the NFL combine.Gregory Payan/Associated Press/Associated Press
Allen, at 6'5" and 233 pounds, isn't being asked to move to tight end. Instead, he could be a top-three pick, while Jackson wasn't selected in Kiper's latest first-round mock draft.

Former NFL quarterback and current Bleacher Report NFL analyst Chris Simms has Jackson rated as the top signal-caller in the draft, followed by Allen. On The Simms & Lefkoe Podcast, Simms said the conversation behind moving Jackson to wide receiver "is truly the dumbest f--king thing I've ever heard. Was it pretty all the time? No. But the decision-making is pretty damn good. It's very good actually. He plays the position the right way."


Jackson faces a systemic issue regarding black quarterbacks that dates back to the beginning of the sport's existence. Marlin Briscoe broke the racial barrier in 1968 when he lined up under center for the Denver Broncos during his rookie season, throwing for 1,589 yards and a team-best 14 touchdowns.

Briscoe was traded the following season to the Buffalo Bills, who converted him to wide receiver.

"It's something that we hear far too often, or way more frequently, with black quarterbacks," said Dr. Carl Suddler, who teaches African American history and African American sports history at Florida Atlantic University. Suddler has watched successful black quarterbacks build impressive resumes in college, "yet the expectation is that they don't have what it takes to play quarterback at the next level."

A discrepancy still exists in the language used to describe black and white quarterbacks. Just last year, as evaluators debated between Deshaun Watson and Mitchell Trubisky, the Washington Post studied NFL draft profiles and "found substantial racial differences in the language used to describe quarterback prospects—differences that are consistent with established racial stereotypes."

It notes how a white quarterback is more likely to be discussed by citing "intangible internal qualities for which he himself is responsible." However, a black quarterback is more often viewed by his physical characteristics, "to be judged erratic and unpredictable, and to have his successes and failures ascribed to outside forces."


"We do it across the spectrum in football," said Long, who has found it lazy that every white pass-rusher gets compared to him or Washington's Ryan Kerrigan, who are both white. But, he said, that kind of racial stereotyping is most obvious when it comes to black quarterbacks, who play the most important position on the field.

Jackson didn't help himself during his interviews with NFL teams, grading poorly with his preparation on the whiteboard, according to multiple sources. Teams have quarterbacks draw up their favorite plays against certain coverages, and they're looking for prospects to be as thorough as possible to grade their football intelligence.

Jackson wasn't detailed, allowing skeptics to reinforce their view that he should change positions because of his "football IQ."

"He has enough pluses that I still like him," said one NFL quarterbacks coach. "If he was really sharp with that, then he would be a top-10 pick. It was bad, but not the worst I've ever seen. Not even the worst at this combine."

Vick wants to help Jackson navigate the draft process, but aside from a few conversations, he's had a difficult time contacting him. Jackson has a tiny camp, electing to represent himself instead of hiring an agent. His mother, Felicia Jones, serves as his manager.


"The preparation is everything in the National Football League, from the time prior to the draft to your last game," Vick said. "That has to be at a premium for him now more than ever. It's very important, and I'mma get him there. I'm gonna continue to fight to help get him there."

Regardless of whether he does or doesn't "get there," Jackson deserves this opportunity. He played his entire career at quarterback. He was a Heisman winner, then a finalist the following year, playing the position. He is one of the best playmakers in the draft.

Jackson has earned the opportunity to play quarterback in the NFL. Anyone saying different should check the tape.

_________________________

this right here stuck out to me the most:

"Stats are for losers, in my opinion. The guy won," ESPN draft analyst Mel Kiper Jr. said on a January conference call when asked about Allen's completion percentage. A month later, when asked why he doesn't believe Jackson is a first-rounder, Kiper responded, "It's the accuracy throwing the football."

^^^^ boy oh boy, have we seen this on this very board.

Care to elaborate as to your crystal ball telling you what he is isn't going to do in the nfl?

Not when the hits are going to be bigger, harder, and faster in the NFL. Players who have never sustained injury in their entire life get hit and go out every other play in the NFL. There is not really a algorithm to predict injuries, however I would say science would dictate the skinny lean guy would get hurt faster by a 300lbs behemoth hitting him than the well built thicker guy.

I also am not calling for Mayfield, I was answering a question. Lamar looks like a stick figure, plain and simple. he will get broke in the NFL running like he does. JMO

Has Kiper never heard of COPY RIGHT INFRINGEMENT ... ...

lol.

forreal, what do you think about kipers comments though? i mean its pretty obvious they aren't being judged on the same standard.

I guess TP changing to receiver was because he black too....gimme a break. Polian is great football mind. In his opinion Jackson would be best to change to WR. Tim Tebow would have been a better TE as well, soooo????

Lamar Jackson threw a much better football than Tebow and Pryor.

He translates far better to the NFL. Bill Polian is a good football mind, but doesn't mean he can't be wrong

TP wasn't considered a top QB. he was drafted in the supplemental round.

we're talking top prospects here.

and btw, tebow led his team to the playoffs and won a playoff game....as a QB.

Hypocritical ... no doubt ...

It makes no sense ... both of them have the exact same issues with accuracy ... i have no clue how Kiper justifies what he said ... NONE ...

If we take either of them ... i hope water is correct about Allen and if we take Lamar I hope your right about him ... i sure as all hell don’t wanna be right if we take Lamar ... *LOL* ...

Bill Polian? I normally try to not to bag on guys with his resume, but the guy is ridiculously out of touch.

oh trust me i feel you 100%.

i completely understand that everybody has their own QB's they like. im glad you get where im coming from though. if we're gonna judge these QB's, then it better be to the same standard.

kiper talking about Allen's accuracy issues doesn't matter, then turning around and saying that Lamar's matter is absolutely ridiculous.

He's certainly out of touch. But his opinion does count for something. He's run some very successful franchises.

But as I said, doesn't mean he's right

Baker is a lot worse built than Lamar Jackson. You ever seen him try to do something athletic? I'm not sure how being shorter and skinnier is having a better frame, and I'm a short guy myself.

I am not saying he cant be wrong, and I actually like lamar to be honest - in the second round.

But to label polian a racist because he believes he would make a better WR is just idiocy.

Mayfield skinner than lamar? dude, have you seen a picture than the two? Mayfield is absolutely more solid than lamar is.

Look we debate who is the better QB , but at leas pull up a picture of the two and compare before you say something BLATENTLY incorrect. LBS does matter, look at their build.

I musta missed something. I never called Polian a racist. I think he's very wrong. But racist? I doubt it. I mean, did he think that Jameis Winston should have been a WR?

Do you know what mass is? Lamar is taller than him and weighs more than him. If by 'solid' you mean fatter, then yes Baker is fatter than Lamar. But just say fatter instead.

Lamar’s height and weight is about Andy dalton size.

Please tell me Lamar is not skinnier than Mayfield. Solid - meaning he is thicker build.

[img]http://images.performgroup.com/di/librar...g?t=-2034969054[/img]

Baker Mayfield is fatter than Lamar Jackson, but has less mass than him overall.

Lamar Jackson: 6'2 1/4, 216 , 9 1/2 hands
Baker mayfield: 6'0 5/8, 215, 9 1/4 hands

Same weight over taller frame equals thinner build. Jus'sayin

so hes thinner. thanks - I am also curious as how long his arms are compared to bakers - that would make a difference as well.

Lamar is much "lankier" and skinnier than Mayfield there is no debating that.

Lamar: 33 1/8 inch arms
Baker: 30 1/4 inch arms