DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Step 1

Same thing could be said about Weeden,Quinn and Manziel. They all had issues, that we neglected and paid for it, In that regard,IMHO, Mayfield is no different, and lets stop pretending he is.

If he plays like Kizer, Quinn or Weeden or behaves like Manziel , he probably won't be here next year...

I wanted Darnold, but I accept that Mayfield has some attributes that should allow him to be an average QB, if nothing else. Comparing him to Taylor, who has been a decent, though unspectacular QB, Mayfield has better accuracy, placement, willingness to attack a defense, as opposed to playing more passively. and leadership. At the very least, he'll be a better version of Taylor, with less run ability, but better passing ability.

He was not my choice, but I can see why the Browns took Mayfield.

This is the situation we WISH we'd had in 1999.... a solid OLine, an average-to-above-average bridge QB, and a potentially good Defense to drop a #1 Pick QB into.

Tim Couch would look a whole lot different on this team than he did on those other teams.

Mayfield should not sniff the field until he has PROVEN that he is ready, regardless of whether or not he is more talented or a better QB than TT.

There is no rush, no hurry, no timetable expiring in 2018. Hell, if need be, let him sit until the end of the 2019 season if you have to.... the point is to NOT do what is best for this year's record, but to do whatever is best and most important to making him the best QB over the next 10 to 15 years that he can be once he does get on the field. If he takes a little longer to grow into things, so be it.

Conversely, if he turns into Peyton Manning, Jr and is diagnosing defenses from under Center in Week 2, then feel free to put him in.... but, just make sure he is READY.

You could insert Quinn/Weeden/Manziel/Kizer in for Couch as well. However, I think Couch would have been better than all the guys I just listed. The jury could still be out on Kizer I suppose. He needs a lot of seasoning though and he'll have a chance to get that in GB.

It is remarkable how consistently we failed as a franchise year after year...failed the QBs...failed the surrounding cast...failed in the FO. Lordy I hope those days are over.

See, I think it's Hue's call. Hue runs the show, and Haley will have to answer to him in terms of who starts at QB.

I'm hoping we keep BM out until the bye week. Give the offense time to gel (so many new players, good players but new), and give Tyrod the shot until we're pretty much out of it.



My issue is, once you start Baker, you're committed. You can't go back to Tyrod. So I'd rather err on the side of prudence.



(Going with your post) Rasta earlier said some things like if Baker looks like _____ or acts like Johnny he'll be out next year. That's not true. Baker Mayfield was the number 1 pick of the draft. He will be on this team for at least three seasons. This is who Hue and Dorsey are betting their future on.

It's best to be extra sure that he's ready, and the team's ready for him, before putting him in.

@Petey

I think we have been pushed to the limit this past seasons.I honestly don't think there is too much room to maneuver, not for "smart assess" and for more of the same.

Expect some knee jerk reactions, but that's natural considering the state of the franchise.

I'm in the same boat as Tab in that, there's a huge difference between a number 1 pick and a number 22 pick. Find me another number 1 pick that was cut after one season. I doubt that's ever happened in the NFL. Even Ryan Leaf stuck around SD for awhile and JeMarcus had at least two seasons in Oakland

Leaf was the consensus #2 pick...Mayfield wasn't...

I honestly don't see Dorsey,Hue and company surviving another season with 1-2 wins...

And even Brees struggled and ended being replaced...

Mayfield was 1st or 2nd in virtually every key qb stat. I had him as my 3rd qb not because of performance but height and the maturity issues. The only guy that's a better passer was rosen but no comparison in pocket awareness.

Thing I really love about him is the quick release combined with tremendous touch n accuracy. More I have watched the more I realize that he isn't your normal 6 ft QB. He plays vertical and enhances that by playing up on his toes. He plays more like a 6-3 QB where as some big and like Brock make themselves small.

Baker wants to start and he can beat out Tt if he can come in knowing this playbook and showing the ability to work from under center. Let the leadership battle begin

We have had our share of accurate short pass Qb's...Remember Colt McCoy...

He will have to challenge D's and make big plays, and he's not a mobile QB, so lets see how things pan-out.

What people are demanding from Mayfield is amazing, and IMHO, has not happen in the league in its whole history.

Never in the history of the game (at least that I can remember) has a short,accurate pocket QB succeeded has a rookie...

Manziel had his mobility going for him... Mayfield, I don't know, I think a Brees, Brady, Manning, type of QB, takes time to develop.

I don't think he'll enter camp with the notion that he's second fiddle and there's nothing he can do about it. Nor would I want him to. Doubt that's in his nature.

That's why we have Tyrod Taylor and Drew Stanton here. So he isn't thrust into the role.


And you're calling him a short pass QB like Colt McCoy. Colt McCoy was a short passing QB, but he didn't throw with anticipation. And Baker Mayfield has a far stronger arm than McCoy. Quickly we found out with McCoy that his ball placement and ability to hit guys in stride was weak. Mix that with the fact that he couldn't stretch the field, and it was a recipe for failure. Mayfield simply has a better arm than McCoy, period. Plain and simple. It's why he was the number 1 pick and McCoy was a 3rd rounder.........


He's probably got the 2nd strongest arm of the bunch behind Allen. Def stronger than Sam Darnold's. It's not like he can't stretch the field vertically.

Colt McCoy problem was decision making, there was nothing wrong with his other abilities. He just couldn't challenge defenses. He was a great College QB without the athleticism to be considered a 1st round prospect. Colt's Arm wasn't a problem, actually his ball velocity numbers was 56 vs 59 of Mayfield

Don't tell me that the accuracy levels of Mayfield come from vertical plays...

What will determine Mayfield's success is his ability to challenge NFL Defenses.. and that is really hard to assess.

I confess I don't like his type of QB, IMHO, college accuracy is far over rated regarding decision making. He is a very accurate player, but holds the ball far too long for my taste.

Lets see, I'll be rooting for him, and to start off, we should lower the expectations.

We'll disagree. First, those numbers mean very little. I'm assuming you're referring to the speed of the ball at the combine. That's not in an actual game. I didn't watch Baker Mayfield at the combine. Didn't watch Colt McCoy neither.

And, like you (I assume), i watched all Colt McCoy's games too. I saw a guy with exactly what I said. He didn't have good ball placement and threw to players instead of spots.


Teams stacked the box daring him to stretch the field, and he couldn't make them pay. Just type in "Colt McCoy Weak Arm" into google. You'll find all sorts of articles.



And, I'd say Colt is almost as athletic as Baker. He made plenty of plays with his feet in college. Baker might be a bit quicker, but Colt wasn't far behind as "an athlete". So I'm not sure that's what separates Baker as the number 1 pick and Colt as a 3rd round pick.......

The thing is that you don't know where college players throw to because the game is so different..

Yes Colt, Brady Quinn, Weeden, Charlie Frye, Hoyer all had problems with decision making and throwing with the so called anticipation, but that is the big difference between college and the NFL.

Now, from Mayfield's body of evidence, many things stand out for the positive, but IMHO some things stand out has negatives also, that's why we was not regarded has a top QB in this draft, apart from PFF and others that place much emphasis on college stats (which I don't think translate for the NFL).

For me, holding too much to the ball is probably the first cardinal sin in the NFL, we should know it...

But, at Oklahoma, maybe he didn't need to quickly get rid of the ball that much. He had the least batted down balls, threw for 71 percent completion percentage, had 6 interceptions verses Rosen's 10. And he had the same amount of sacks as Rosen. I'd assume Darnold had more sacks and interceptions.

So, why is this a red flag?

I do like QBs who can get rid of the ball quickly, but there's nothing to say he can't do it. Not from stats, not from the games I've watched. He just was playing effectively

Colt was one of the most accurate passers in the history of the browns, only problem was that his receivers never learned to catch using their ass cheeks.

IMHO, he had problems managing and taking risks. He would be a average/good QB in a good team, but bad teams need to take risks, and he just couldn't.

lol, so you're supporting my claims about poor ball placement and anticipation in the throws?

If you don't have Int's, means you are not taking risks. Simple has that, you are not trying to make plays and ruin your numbers.

Add that with holding on to the ball, and you have a major red flag, IMHO.

But,like I said, that is something you can only see in NFL games. Hope you are right honestly...

I've never heard anyone try to claim that more int's are a positive sign.

Colt never had the luxury of playing with a good ground game, or with receivers that gave him easy completions.

When they take the easy throws away from the rookie dink-donk QB's, they will have problems.

Unless the QB is a prodigy, they will struggle if they have no-one that can help them. Our receivers were atrocious.

Baker situation is much better if Gordon comes to play and Landrey lives up to the expectations, and we have Haley has OC, and that's my hope.

Except is some cases. Deshaun Watson discussion last year, Manziel and others before him.

Its not the Int numbers but what they mean... If the QB plays to win or to be drafted number one, etc. If the Ints are high risk or butt fumbles, etc

Same goes in the NFL, Favre is good example, Manning..

All stats are relative... throw from 2500 yards, 9 touchdowns and 7 ints..

or 4000 yards, 19 touchdowns and 9 ints... which one would you rather have? The guy with less ints?

I understand what you're saying but that's not what I got out of what he said. I mean Baker got a lot of yards and TD's. He also kept his int's low.

So I'm not sure I understand your comparison in this situation.

In 2015 36 td's and 7 int's

2016 40 td's and 8 int's

2017 43 td's and 6 int's.

So while I do see your point, and if we were speaking of Tyrod I would understand, when speaking of Mayfield it doesn't hold water.

I know you are right, but we are talking off the Browns here ;-)

I liked Rosen and Lamaar, I think they were a class apart, hated the Mayfield pick with the #1, so its kind of a jerk reaction from me.

Either way, we should downgrade the expectation, the Kid deserves that, in the sense he has already a big burden to carry...

Haley knows what he is doing, so I guess he will be OK.

Hey I was for Rosen too. lol

But Mayfield was the pick and I may not have agreed with it 100% but I can understand it.

well i hope he take twice the risk this year... 96 td and 12 int!!!!!

Hey man. I liked Rosen too. He was my number 1 guy.

Mayfield was my number 2, but Rosen was my number 1.


Just because we don't get the guy we want, doesn't mean we just make up things about the guy we did get. Mayfield's on the team, and Rosen isn't. So that's over.

Evaluate the player for what he actually was in college, and not in terms of anyone else anymore. That way silly stuff isn't made up to try to explain why you don't like him.


I mean, seriously. He didn't throw enough interceptions. lol. Come on.......... He threw for more TDs last year than Deshaun Watson in Watson's senior year (and less interceptions). How the heck could that be a bad thing! More yards too. He was more effective in all aspects. And he took more shots and threw the ball further down field.

If the guy is holding the ball longer because he has the opportunity to and he can make better plays that way, why would we fault him for that.

The question is, how effective is he when he can't hold the ball that long. See?

And therein lies the rub.

At Oklahoma, he did not need to get rid of the ball quickly. He did not need to throw receivers open. He did not need to throw into tight, NFL-sized windows. He really did not need to throw with anticipation.

This means we do not know if he can do those things. It is quite possible he can, but we do not know that he can because he has not done them. Because he has not needed to do, not that he tried and failed.

This was a point brought up by some before the draft. We were not saying he wouldn't be able to do these things in the NFL, we were saying that we don't know if he will be able to as he did not need to do these things in college.

I am hoping he can do these things, and do them well.

Me too of course. And i imagine our scouts and personel department, have found on film where he has shown the ability to do these things.

He might not have had to do it much, but he's surely done it. I just don't want to go through all the youtube game footage and pick it out. lol. The drafts over, and analyzing college film isn't that fun for me.

I just did it because figuring out this QB position was that important

Rosen was my #1, and a few people on this board saw it that way too.


But I'm also not going to ignore the fact that quite a few NFL GMs had very different assessments as me. And quite a few of those GMs either took QBs or needed one.

Time will tell us all.

minus the WR's having the balls go through their hands on a regular basis.

@Petey

I have confess to some knee jerk reaction, but I see too much optimism in this boards, which is not a good thing, IMHO.

No TT isn't Alex Smith, the Bills were not one of the best running O's because of him and Mayfield isn't Drew Brees nor Wentz or Wilson or Deshaun. For him to be successful it will require time, learning and adjusting to the speed of the game.

Yes, I hope Mayfield succeeds, I actually don't dislike him that much, and I think with Haley here, he will probably be OK, providing Gordon does nor derail the team, and Duke proves his potential.

But I still don't think that Mayfield has the "capital" to survive if things go wrong, or if expectations are too high.

And by the way, I think the comparison to Colt McCoy is relevant, they come from similar systems that inflate QB numbers.

I much prefer seeing an abundance of optimism rather than pessimism. Admittedly, both are contagious...

Taylor ran for 480 yards last year. (and 4 TD)

In 2016, he ran for 580 yards and 6 TD.

In 2015, he ran for 568 yards and 4 TD.

Of course he impacted the run game for the Bills.

If he didn’t have picks, maybe it’s because he was pretty damn accurate? Your line of thought has me scratching my head.