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I've found over the course of my lifetime that most men who have such a repulsive view of homosexuals usually aren't confident in their own manhood.

I've never seen a confident male get that worked up over homosexuals.

Love who you love. Be happy. Because when you're nearing the end, that's what's important.

and Save the Empire!

What a vacuous notion.. stop being obtuse.

Oh my! Zing!

Well now isn't that just supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

When have I ever said I hate anyone? Quote and prove it. You label me an extremist but I am not. I'm just not a hypocrite. My Bible says it's wrong, so it's wrong. How could anyone even dream of being a Christian if you don't believe what the Bible teaches.

You can't say your tolerant of religion when you spew hatred at them for following their religion. What you want is for people to SAY they are Christian but not practice what the Bible teaches. So long as they don't actually practice their religion your fine with them.

That is not tolerance. That is intolerance. You don't have to like me. You can hate the Bible for teaching that homosexuality is a sin and an abomination all you want. Just be honest and admit that your intolerant of Christians because REAL Christians accepts the teachings of the Bible as the right way to live your life.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Paul writes:

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

I get that you don't like the Bible but hundreds of millions of people worldwide follow it. We want our children to find eternal life and heaven. We don't want our kids to be denied because they lived an immoral life. Their ETERNAL life is more important to us than a worldly life that ends after such a brief time.

I get disgusted when I see people throwing away their spiritual life. I feel concern and worry that they will suffer greatly because of it. I worry that my children will fall into bad company and be led astray.

1 Corinthians 15:33
Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”

Even if the world might hate us for it we have no choice. If we follow the Bible then we must rebuke a sinner to lead them away from eternal death. How would we justify ourselves before God if we stand before him and have to explain why we didn't care enough to save his children just because they didn't want to hear it and might get mad at us.

Still I have never preached hate and I don't abide by it. Hating a person is evil. It's wrong. For me at least it goes against what the Bible teaches. Yes, I do get repulsed when I see sinful things. It's ok to hate sin. I hate lies and murder too but when we see someone who is lost it's our duty to help them back onto a path that will benefit their soul. As an atheist you might view that as arrogant or conceited but to me it means I care. After all it would be soooo much easier to just ignore things and walk on by and avoid the hassle of it. I mean it's so much easier to just say what doesn't offend or bother people but then we would not be obeying God.

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

I try to be gentle as I can and I do try to be respectful. I will not however lie to make someone feel better. It's not a sin to be gay. I mean you can't help how you feel. It is a sin though to act on those feelings and perform an act that is a sin. it's not like it's the only thing in the world that is sinful. It's doesn't make gays evil or worthless human beings. I have plenty of compassion for how much it can make them suffer.

To me being gay is no worse than a drunk. The desire to sin is always there. we all have things that tempt us. I am not any better. I am a diabetic. I know that sugary food is bad for me. I know it's wrong for me to eat it. That doesn't stop me from smelling a fresh baked cake and having craving so bad they can rock my world. I don't hate someone for wanting what they want. That doesn't make what they want good and OK though.

So yes, I will elect officials that will stand up for Christian morals when I am given a choice because I should always fight for what I believe in. If that makes you hate me then so be it. Feel free to fight for what you believe in too. I won't hate you for it though. I'll just treat you the same as any other American who has a difference of opinion about what is right and wrong. After all it's our GOD given rights as our founders intended =)

You mean constitution given rights? If talking about our founding fathers, I don't believe they ever said that god authored the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.

Oh, and they specifically stated "Separation of church and state" because they didn't want people's religions mucking up governments. They believed people had the right to believe in whatever religion they wanted to without persecution, but that it should be kept out of government.

I agree with that. I do not care that you are religious. Let that sink in. I care that you use your religion as means to hate on people. I do not spew hatred toward religion. I spew it to you. Because you've got it coming.

And I would love to get together with your kids. Take them out for drinks if they're of legal age. Maybe go bowling. Corrupt them with my atheist views. Enlighten them a bit. But you wouldn't want them thinking for themselves now would you?

Some twist scripture to use it as a weapon. It makes the rest of us look bad.

As a parent, I have every right to know what is being shown or spoken to my child about. I don't care if its about LGBT videos, or a math lesson. The indoctrination is trying to show someone's kid a video without knowledge of the parent.

Personally, I could care less about gays or gay marriage. Have it it. Everyone has the right to be as miserable as the next married guy or gal

But I am completely against the school refusing the parents to make judgment on what is being shown or taught to their own children. That is the indoctrination in this story.

Yeah if you hide school lessons from parents then you're doing something wrong.

Some atheists use our beliefs to put others down, and makes us look bad too.

I think everyone here knows my outlook on religion, and that I am in fact atheist.

However, I've had some private conversations with religious people and the work they do with their ministry or congregation, and I applaud it. When religion is used as a means to reach people and help them, man is it some powerful stuff. I'm ok with that. It's for the betterment of society and truly helps people. That's not being a good christian, that's being a good person. And they're better people than I am, because I don't volunteer the way they do.

So those people, those religious types, my hat goes off to them. They're good people, and I'd never have a beef with them.

It's the other type that I have a problem with. The type that makes me sad.

Atheist here too, but I need to point out that what you said is actually true for anyone trying to help people and do good for the benefit of those in need or the whole. Same applies to those who would take advantage. It doesn't matter if we are talking religion, politics, sports figures, hollywood stars, or a 10 year old kid.

I agree that most truly religious people want to be good and do good. I might find their religion misguided or unnecessary in my personal beliefs, but it is not my place to decide for them. The only time I speak against religion is when it is being used to do harm or in some negative way. Even then, it doesn't mean that people are ill intentioned, often they just don't see the other side or they are so indoctrinated that they can't accept an opposing view.

I'm not so much religious as I am spiritual. I believe organized religion overall has done a lot to hurt the cause of Christianity and many of their beliefs and customs have nothing to do with Christ whatsoever. But I'm also not against anyone who follows a religion. It's just not for me.

Unlike some Christians, I actually have nothing against Atheists. I believe we all have the right to believe as we see fit as Americans. I also understand how without faith it would be hard to believe. Much like OCD I believe that being a good human being is an individual thing. An Atheist can be just as much of a good person as a Christian.

I am also one who believes that an Athiest has just as much to refuse people service based on moral grounds as a Christian does on religious grounds. Either it works for both of them or it works for neither of them.

An example would be that if a Christian can deny a gay couple a wedding cake based on religious grounds, an atheist can deny Sarah Huckabee Sanders service based on their moral beliefs.

Again your just flat out wrong. I am not hateful. I just don't accept bad behavior as OK. Your the only one spewing hate because your intolerant towards those with a different view.

Read your Declaration of Indepence much?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The founding fathers were not worried about keeping religion out of the government because they KNEW it is impossible to do so. People will elect who they want and those people will run the government how they want. If you elect a Christian then government will be influenced by it. You're NEVER getting away from that effect. No what the founders wanted was a government that stayed out of people's religion.

Have you actually read the first amendment?!

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

They will make no laws restricting religion or in practicing that religion.

There is nothing to force religion out of a government. It's just that they can't make a law limiting it or trying to control it. They are not allowed to create a state sponsored church like the Church of England whose tyranny inspired so many settlers to come to America to escape religious oppression.

The liberal agenda where you want to outlaw any and all expression of religion for any government job or even secular job is unconstitutional and an act of oppression.

My kids won't be drinking. They know better than to poison themselves and put themselves into bad situations by imbibing substances that alter your brain chemistry. They are free to make up their mind on God as they see fit. God is not a slaver which is why we have freedom of choice. One follows God by choice and love not by enslavement.

I teach my kids and my students to question everything. Don't be afraid to challenge the status quo. If you don't like something then challenge it. Do your research and argue for it or against it. Never let others tell you what to believe. Read, read, and read some more until you know what the hell your talking about and then go seek experience. Try out new things and try to see things from the other person's point of view. Learn from their mistakes so you don't have to repeat them and suffer for it. Don't trust textbooks because they are full of mistakes but instead if your curious about something then research it across many resources. Never be afraid to ask why.

I promise you my kids can think for themselves just fine. At 9 and 11 they can put adults to shame with the quality of questions they ask. I love it when they ask questions that are tough to answer and I love it even more when they ask "WHY?"

The one you need to worry about is yourself. Me and mine are fine =)

Using scripture is what we are supposed to do because it is the truth more than using our own words could ever be.

Ephesians Chapter 6 16-17
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

I say don't trust anyone who talks about God and can't back up what they say with scripture because to me that means they don't know what they are talking about and are just running their mouth. In fact the ones who don't quote scripture are the most likely to be twisting what they say out of context.

I do agree though with you that some folks do like to pick and choose to deliberately drag things out of context. To me that is an act of evil.

Still at least if they provide the scriptures they are thinking of it gives you a reference point to go back and challenge them on it later and hopefully have scriptures of your own to bring his understanding to a higher level. I mean sometimes people do it out of ignorance and no ill intent. This is why we have fellowship so that we can catch our mistakes through the eyes of others and gain wisdom from it.

Well said Pitt. I can agree with everything you said there 100%.

I think that more tolerance on all sides is really needed.

Christians who follow what the Bible teaches are never going to accept homosexuality as anything but sinful. Still they need love and compassion same as everyone else. There is no sense in harping at them. Say your piece if asked and then be done with it unless they ask again. Treat them with respect the same way you want to be treated.

Gays need to understand that Christians have core beliefs that say their way of life is wrong because that is what the Bible teaches us. You don't have to like it but you need to just accept them the way they are and move on. Your not going to change them any more than they will change you. Intolerance towards their beliefs is not going to gain tolerance for you. It's going to do the exact opposite because anyone you try to force into a change will either defend harder or move to attack back out of instinct.

The diversity in America is only a strength when we tolerate each other. When it fills us with hate and intolerance it only leads to violence.

I urge everyone to put down the hate and just accept our differences instead of trying to force everyone to just be the same.

You're... you are...

Anyway, I don't care much for preaching tolerance. I'd rather preach acceptance.

And clearly you missed anything ever written about the separation of church and state.

And also, you quote scripture like it's the word of god, yet it's not, it's written by some dudes who weren't even around to actually have witnessed what jesus or god actually did. It's a story told to a guy then told to other guys to write down. And how do you account for all the different versions of the Bible? It has literally been changed by different ruling monarchies, hence the King James version.

You should take some European history college classes. You'll see how religions were formed by man, in order to control their citizens. It's as old as Hammurabi and his code, older even.

I will give the Bible some credit though, it is by far the best-selling fiction book of all time!

So much for acceptance.

Praying for you brother.

Me too.

This is the perfect example of what I have been pointing out for years here. This is what brings out the “oh so religious” on this topic every time. Their old testemant quotes come pouring off their keyboards, their excitement to show their biblical knowledge shows up in mass, while ignoring murder threads and those other tiny sins. They believe the people or things they hate the most are backed up by the Bible, it’s so obvious and sad. Yet, some ignore this trend and actually express respect for these posters. Incredible. Bible backed bigotry.

Thank you, Vers, for your kind words, I appreciate them. I have been called an animal, a pervert, wicked, a fake Christian, told I’m going to hell, by the loving Christians on this board. But, you know, name calling is cool when done by the good religious folks.

Those fine folks claim every word in the Bible is very clear and without question. Y’all get back with me when you all can agree what day the Sabath falls on. Gee, that should be something agreed on by all biblical scholars here if the Bible is so clear and easy to interpret. I’ll be waiting.

Jules, I think you are one of the finest people I have spoken to. I admit that I do not have any gay friends. I don't care to hear "gay celebrations" and I absolutely loathe "anti-comments." I just say "live and let live."

I will say that when things turn ugly, as evidenced by the names you have been called, I get upset. Jules, it's been my experience that those who gang-up on minorities, whether it be blacks, Muslims, Gays, Hispanics, Women, etc........that they are simply transferring their fears, insecurities, and self-loathing onto others who are easier targets.

Those people will always be out there, Jules. It's easy for folks like me to say to ignore them, but we both know different. I wish I could make things better for you and others who face hateful and ignorant attacks. I will simply end by saying that the people who really matter don't think the way they do.

Weird, seacow loving, moccasin wearing, bucket head.. sure I can get behind those.. but that other stuff is just rude.

And would you take a damn job in the Carolinas somewhere so we can have beers together.. just one time... we have lots of hospitals here that need fixed too..

I have said many times I don't hate anyone. I don't like the things some people do or the lifestyle they choose to live. Certain behaviors gross me out. I won't say something is OK just because it offends someone. My belief system comes from the Bible. I quote it on MANY, MANY topics on this forum not just on homosexuality. I have also used many new testament quotes as well. It's not just an Old Testament issue. Homosexuality is a sin. I harp on it because some people try to say it's not and that is incorrect. If someone wants to live a life of sin that is up to them. God gave everyone free will to choose how they want to live. Some live for this one life and some live for their eternal life. That is their choice.

It doesn't matter what sin it is, if your living a lifestyle where you choose to sin whether it be lying, stealing, killing, being sexually immoral then your living in rebellion against God. Pick your sin and you will find everyone has a weakness to one of them. None of us are perfect. IF and that is a big IF you want to call yourself a Christian then you have to live a life of trying to resist temptation and regretting it when you fail. Get back up and try to do better next time. It's not well I don't like that one so I will just ignore it and do whatever I want to because the Bible must be wrong.

To me the Bible is the word of God. If it says something is wrong then it's wrong. Period. It's not hateful or bigoted. I don't hate someone because they are weak to sin. Jesus doesn't hate so why should I? But as Jesus forgives he also says, "Go and sin no more." Is Jesus a bigot and full of hate because he wants us not to sin and is willing to say so? I don't think he is and I don't feel I am either.

Jules you had a question on the Sabbath. The answer is that if your Jewish then it's Saturday. If your a Christian it's any day of the week you want it to be.

Colossians 2:16
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day

The apostle Paul kind started it where they would worship on Sundays because he would start a sermon on a saturday and sometimes not stop till after it was sunday. LOL and you think the 1 hour service at church these days is rough LOL!

Acts 20:7
And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

The point of the Sabbath is to provide man a rest against the temptations of the world that is full of sin and to have fellowship with other believers so that they could find strength to make it through the week. Whatever is good for your busy life just enjoy it when you can and try to do it every week so that you can keep your strength up.

I hope that answers your question about the sabbath Jules.

I don't hate anyone for whatever sin they commit because we all sin. We all fail. None of us are any better than another. You sin doing that and I sin doing something else. It's not important that we sin. What is important is that we repent of our sins and do our best to stop sinning.

Luke 17:3-4
“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him”

First there is sin, then there is a rebuke, and then there is repentance. Once you really repent that is when you can be forgiven. You don't get forgiveness unless you repent first. Doesn't matter how often we fail, so long as, we recognise that we have sinned, feel sorry about it, and then at least TRY to stop doing it.

Some might have too much pride to think what they do is a sin. Lucifer had so much pride he thought he knew better than God too. That didn't work out so well for him in the end. I will end it on this verse:

1 Peter Chapter 5 vs 5-6
Young men, in the same way, submit yourselves to your elders. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, so that in due time He may exalt you.

So Mr. The Bible is Fact...

Here's some fun quotes from the bible:
https://www.ranker.com/list/weird-bible-rules/kellen-perry

"And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even." Leviticus 15:19-21

Wait ... what?: This literally means that people shouldn't sit in the same spot a woman sat when she was on her period, because a woman on her period was thought to be unclean.

"Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee." Leviticus 19:19

Wait ... what?: There is some disagreement on this one. It could be because “wool and linen were appointed for the priests alone.” Another thought is that mixing wool and linen "brings on malignant fevers and exhausts the strength."

"If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him ... and a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband ... the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water ... this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot." Numbers 5:11-31

Wait ... what?: This one is complicated. Some people think the dirty water was supposed to cause an abortion; others think it would to pressure the woman into a confession. Regardless, there's no denying the idea was for the alleged adulteress to drink a mix of holy water and tabernacle floor dust

Translating to English

Leviticus 15:19-21 New International Version (NIV)

19 “‘When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.

20 “‘Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. 21 Anyone who touches her bed will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

Leviticus 19:19
19 “‘Keep my decrees.

“‘Do not mate different kinds of animals.

“‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.


Numbers 5:11-31
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife

11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

Yeah a lot of traditional laws in the old testament are just reveared wives' tales. If you really want to look at where the Bible gets crazy, look at all the translations from ancient Greece to Latin. That's when a lot of the modern day nonsense begins.

Such as?

The Bible was originally written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. There are remnants of much of the Torah going back to the 6th century BC, and they have been translated, directly, into English, along with other languages.

The Torah was an oral tradition for centuries, carried on by Priests, because the early Israelis didn't have a widespread written language.

Can I assume that you are not a Christian, by your statement?

We also don't have an original Bible. We have various copies of a Bible, that we've stitched together to form our modern Bibles.

As far as translations go, the Greek word regarding to their culture of men having sex with their mentees has been translated into blanket homosexuality. That's from the top of my memory.

Judaism and Islam also have these debates as well. Spinoza famously rebuked the pentateuch in the 1600's. Islam's 72 virgins could be translated into 72 olives.

And no, I'm not a Christian, although I was raised one. And this topic has no bearing on why I'm not religious.

The NIV translation of the Bible is translated as faithfully as possible, from the earliest manuscripts, directly. It is not translated from translations. It uses the earliest possible sources.

They match (much) later versions.

Now I do agree that the King James took some liberties, including adding to the Gospel of Mark. However, the overall work of the Bible is so remarkable consistent, I see no choice but to believe.

As you know, I am a Christian, and I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ ... and He referenced the Old Testament frequently. That's good enough for me, as well.

I am curious as to how much of the Bible you have actually read.

All of it a few times and back. Even the stuff deemed non canocical. Have you read any of biblical stories not in the Bible? Or Jewish stories not in the Torah?

All translations of the Bible, from KJ, Vulgate to NIV are created by using quite a few Bibles.

The next time someone translates the Bible, or makes a new version of it, can they add in a line about banning pineapple on pizza?

Lets get the stuff that really matters in there!

Yes, there are books/stories that are not in canon. I have read a number of them, and in many cases, understand why they are not in canon. They might have some use in history, I suppose.

I am shocked that you have actually read the Bible, and disparage as you do. I have read it, probably, 7 or 8 times now. I fine more truths with every reading. I find more and more consistency in every reading. I find God, more and more in every reading.

The NIV, my preferred version, uses the oldest possible sources in their translation. If it is incomplete, as happens, they go to the next oldest source.

The KJV is nowhere near my preferred translation. It is too hard to read, and had things added to it. (like at the end of the Gospel of Mark) The NIV also picks up this addition, but plainly labels it as having been added later.

Pineapple on pizza is amazing. Add some Cajun spice to the crust, or some hot sauce.

Hawaiian pizza rules! Ham and pineapple ..... Yum!

I've read the entire thing 3 times. I've read some books a lot of times and some books only 3 times and I love reading the Apocrypha. My mother raised me as protestant, she's served in Mission Trips for her Church. My sister is extremely religious, and my niece graduated from Taylor University. I was raised all around Christianity. I have many mixed feelings about Christianity. Especially Missions works as well as the history of the Church and their powers. I do think the Bible is full of good parables. I think morally, for the most part, it's a very sound book. I'm very fond of certain chapters like Job. I think there are even a lot of great theologians who have been great socialists, thus great people, in my mind. I even enjoy the aesthetics of the Catholic Church, even though iconoclasm is banned according to some religions.

Those reasons however are not why I do not believe in God. At the end of the day I have to believe that I am an agent of free will and that no omnipotent-presence is dictating my moves. That said, I choose to use this free will not to disparage any religion because I do not know what waits for us after death. And I will never pretend that I will.

I'm in the same boat as CHS I think. Raised in a fundamentalist baptist household, read the entire Bible several times growing up. Today though I am very agnostic, essentially atheist (at least to the idea of the Abrahamic God as told in the Bible).

Still, I've dealt with that. I'm not gonna rail on people who are religious or spiritual. We all gotta find our way through life. I have been combative about religion in the past but it's not a good use of time.

As far as Bibles go, I really prefer the New Oxford Annotated Bible. I hate old English thus the King James version can keep it. I like the NRSV the most, but the NIV is what I was raised on.

Maybe it's because I love old English but I like the KJV the best for personal reading. I find it easier to teach form the NIV though. Some say it's best to read in the original language and to a certain extent that is true but I don't think so for the average person because they will make mistakes far more than the translated versions. Both the KJV and the NIV were put together by the best biblical scholars of their time and are pretty reliable.

There are many things you read in the bible that if you don't understand the cultural and historical context you will not understand things correctly and will end up reading things out of context. It's not enough to simply read it through. I have no idea how many times I've read through the Bible but each time I have read it I have gained new insights as my life experience opens up new understanding and new research I have done gives new meaning to what I had read previously and didn't even realize what I was reading had another meaning completely.

It's not a book you can read casually and suddenly know what your talking about. It has many, many layers of meaning all interwoven in ways that are complicated beyond casual comprehension.

The Bible itself is not a complete work. It's the version of God that Judians wanted to promote. There are several books not in the bible that Paul and the other disciples used but were not included because the Catholic Church didn't like that image of God or Jesus.

Still that being said there is enough there for anyone willing to study it to find a path to salvation which is good enough for me.