DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Indians Continued

I like that Melky Cabrera. He's good.

6-1 Tribe in the 2nd.

Yandy Diaz is now 2-for-2 with an RBI on Sun. In five games this season for the Tribe, he's 9-for-16 (.563). How you goinna keep him down on the farm?

https://twitter.com/hoynsie/status/1028718417241677824

Carlos Carrasco, one of the Indians aces that never gets mentioned much in CY discussions, is now 14-6. His record equals Kluber (14-6) and he has two more wins than Bauer (12-6), even though he missed 2-3 starts while on the DL after taking a batted ball off his elbow.

He doesn’t get mentioned because win/loss record is basically irrelevant when considering how well a pitcher performs.

We've got 3 legit Cy Young contenders in Kluber, CC and Bauer. We also have 5 guys with 60 or more RBIs. Yet somehow we're only the 4th best team in the AL. Is our bullpen THAT bad?

You never played baseball, right?

Yeah.

All of a sudden an "exciting" 8th & 9th inning today.

This happens way too frequently.

Francona is working intensely to get the bull pen "straightened-out".

He will if he keeps winning.

Wins are the single most important pitching statistic.

I get that wins aren't the be-all/end-all of pitching, but I have watched these guys this year and of the three, my order for CYA (among Indians pitchers) would be Bauer, Carrasco, and Kluber. I know I'm more of a tradionalist when it comes to pitching stats ... W-L, ERA, IP are big with me. I know that new school baseball people think WAR is the big stat, but then someone has to explain to me how Mike Clevinger (7-7) has a WAR of 3.7 while Carrasco (14-6) has a WAR of 2.4, because I'd say right now that if its Game 7 and my choice is Clevinger or Carrasco, I go Carrasco 10 times out of 10. I realize that's a different discussion than eligibility for the CYA, but I think the voters rely a bit too much on the advanced stats and not enough on what they are watching on the field.

I understand the reliance on won-loss record by some. It was the main thing people relied upon for a long time because it was a lot of what we had. Now we have so many more ways to look at the game that we have learned that wins and losses are basically irrelevant when evaluating a pitcher's true talent (a prime example of this is Jacob deGrom this year). No one in a present day baseball front office evaluates pitchers by wins and losses.

As far as Carlos Carrasco versus Mike Clevinger, I don't know where you are getting your information from, but Fangraphs (known to be just about the best analytical baseball site available to the public) has Clevinger at 3.4 WAR and Carrasco at 3.0 WAR. 0.4 WAR is a negligible difference. A starting pitcher can earn 0.4 in a very good start. The difference between these two players is simple, Clevinger has pitched 146.2 innings while Carrasco has only pitched 129.1 innings. So WAR actually has Carrasco as the better player, he has just pitched about less. Fangraphs predicts that Carrasco will earn a little more than one WAR the rest of season while Clevinger will earn just under a win.

You watching the games and thinking Carrasco is the better pitcher is actually correct assessment based on the advanced stats. If Carrasco had pitched as much as Clevinger this year he'd be a bit more valuable. Luckily for the Indians both are pretty good pitchers and aren't even the top two pitchers on the team.

Carrasco would probably be my choice too, but I'd also look at WHO we're facing ... Houston will be the 1st round opponent, so I'm always more inclined to look at success against lineups instead of success overall