DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Interesting take from ESPN on Haslam and the coaching search

Could be, but then that is pretty normal when a new GM hits town. Some of the players let go weren't bad players.

I've often seen players that weren't bad players, simply not fit or perform where they currently are. I mean we can look at Robinson and Perriman to see that. I'm sure that both of their former teams felt they weren't "real players " either. And where they were before they arrived here, they weren't. Nobody cuts former first round players if they are being "real players".

But when you look at the tape of a team and you don't see real players, you see what you see. And yes, when a new GM takes over, there are usually some huge roster turnovers. But when have you seen a team that had real play makers have their GM fired? Because I think we all knew that's what he meant.

Out of the RB's, only one is left. Out of the QB's, none are left. What people felt were out two best WR's, Gordon and Coleman are both gone. That's due to a need, not just a new GM's roster turnover.

Great read imo. Ownership seems to actually be learning. Some of the alleged anecdotes are pretty savage.

The question I have at this point is if Jimmy will act like the kid who can’t beat a certain level in a video game, eventually passing the controller to his friend so he can do it for him. As soon as the friend beats the level, or even hints at beating it, will Jimmy demand the controller back, thinking he’s good to go now and claiming credit?

I guess we’ll find out. So far so good.

Still think Haslam is better than Randy Lerner. At least Haslam did what he thought was best for the team. Even though he was wrong I will take that level of dysfunction over just not giving a crap any day.

so this guy is a horrible business owner and a horrible football owner?

i thought we already knew these things on this board? you guys talk about it all the time.

Sometimes it may be best to hire football people and keep your hands off of things. That's what Randy did. It sounds like now that Haslam is starting to act more like Randy, things are looking up.

That's what Randy did, unfortunately he didn't hire very good football people... his record isn't all that much better.

Looks to me like Jimmy is a micromanager by nature and got into a business he didn't fully understand and tried to micromanage those who do understand it.

Reads like he was always very eager to learn and the understand but he just couldn't help but inject his opinion and even pull rank on occasion... Hopefully he has learned...

The article indicates he has. At least at this point.

My comments are more directed to those that claim Randy didn't care. Nobody owns a huge corporation and doesn't want to make money from it. Winning will do that.

Haslam hired a lot of the wrong people too. That doesn't mean he didn't care either. It's just now that he's not interfering with the football people, just like Randy was doing, things are getting better.

Great article... very informative. For me the biggest takeaway was that Jimmy has been a notorious micro manager. Well intentioned for sure and it can seem like a good idea to be asking everyone throughout the organization how they think everyone else is doing... but that just breeds conflict when the team struggles early.

Dorsey is the right guy that gives us the best chance with this owner because Dorsey is a strong personality. His prior success and early success should buy plenty of ammo to shut down Jimmy if he starts meddling again.

No guarantee though cuz Jimmy is the owner and can do whatever he wants ultimately.

Jimmy... if you read this... please just stay out of the way. Most owners are mia most the time and there is a reason for that.

Dee saved him? LOLetc!

I think things have improved mightily. Dorsey is working some magic in Berea. Let's go to the Combine so I can ignore ESPN and the other gurus.

I so look forward to it.

Owners/senior management also need to understand that they can't just weigh in with their opinion... people respond to their opinion, people want to do what the boss wants to do.. or they feel obligated to do it.. because if the boss thinks A but you do B and B doesn't work, you are likely fired... even though A might have been worse... doesn't matter.

Possibly the most Hue Jackson thing ever is losing him mind of trading a punter who was subsequently cut. That man is THE most clueless coaches I have EVER seen in Cleveland.

And see, here I had no idea he had a multiple personality disorder. That explains a lot!

Our owner called an employee Obama because he was black and went to Harvard.

Can we talk about how crazy the above statement is?

You keep referencing this 30 player roster turnover to justify the “no real players” statement. So, lets look at that turnover in more detail. Firstly, let’s talk draft picks.

Cleveland had 12 draft picks going into 2018, before FA. During FA, one pick was used on Landry, another was used on Taylor. Whether or not these moves are deemed good or bad (another conversation entirely), the picks were used on veterans instead of college players. But they would have been used regardless…most likely on college players by the past regime. The Randall trade is essentially a wash in terms of player/draft capital because it was a 3 for 3 exchange. Then there is the actual 8 picks used in the draft (not counting the one extra from a trade by Dorsey the day of the draft, I think)

We’re talking 12 players as a result of draft picks that would have been used by either regime, and thus, a part of each’s regimes roster turnover. So those transactions are out of the equation as far as your argument is concerned.

So…now we’re down to 18. That’s very different look, isn’t it?

Then let’s talk about moves made by cutting 2017 players and then signing/trading for other players.

Meder is cut for Lawrence who, himself is cut a month later.
Nassib is cut for Zettel which was bad move
Crowell is let go and we sign Hyde, who is traded mid-season. ( Oddly enough because of Chubb, who isn’t on this team most likely if not for the added draft pick in the second round by the last regime)
We sign Gaines (bad deal so far)
We trade McCourty and sign Carrie ( a net loss )

Let’s not forget Joe Thomas’ retirement that obviously forced us to add ‘a new body’ to the roster.

Now we’re talking 12 roster spots. Now who are they? Backups and STers. Not all, but a decent amount.

This isn’t to hate on Dorsey as I’ve liked a good amount of what he has done. It’s this 30 player roster turnover that is laughable as an argument for the team's success.

The reason we are successful is because we have a franchise QB (one you hated on pre-draft and any poster who liked him) and it elevated the talent already on this roster. Sorry.

Alright. Work calmed down a bit for today, and I read through the article twice and skimmed the comments.

1st, I gotta get one thing out of the way. Normally, my favorite thing is to bash ESPN and its content creators... but believe me when I say this isn't one of those times. Even though I'm going to criticize, overall my hat is tipped to this reporter.

After really digging into this article, I gotta say I was left wanting. This article is great for your average NFL fan, but for Browns fans that follow the team and remember these things going down (even Holmgren really wasn't all that long ago, though it feels like ages), we know a bunch of some of the juiciest stuff was left out. While I acknowledge that if the writer went into detail about every single hilariously bad thing these regimes did during their short times together, the article would be a book... but there were still some HUGE things that were left out, and that paired with some of the takes in the article makes my brain scream 'bias'.
Again, and I know it sounds weird, but I don't want to bash the writer... I'm just saying.... not a single word about Shanny's powerpoint slides? A single line about our GM getting suspended for texting the coaches? Not a word about Farmer not interviewing either Gilbert or Manziel (IIRC)? Not a word about McCarron-Gate? They touched on the coaching search that resulted in Pettine, but left out the parts about Banner's interaction with Whisenhunt (IIRC) where he questioned the staff he wanted to bring in. He made the curious statement about how Jackson started Kizer, but left out the part about sending everyone else off the roster before the start of the season.

The point of the article was to bash Haslam... and I agree with that. Haslam deserves all the bashing he's received... and then some, given some of the details behind his decisions, as revealed in this article. And while he's at the top, so ultimately he is accountable for everything going on, the stupidity isn't limited to what he says and does. The stuff I mentioned above had little to nothing to do with Haslam (other than he hired those people), and that's just off the top of my head. Banner got fired because he kinda sucked as a leader, was terrible to deal with, brought in Lombardi, botched the coaching search that resulted in Pettine, which was on the heels of Chud getting fired under real weird circumstances.
Farmer deserved to get fired. While this article paints a sympathetic picture of Farmer during that Gilbert/Manziel draft.... he didn't even interview Gilbert and picked him in the top10. Dude was texting the sidelines and got in trouble for it. Guy deserved the axe... but there's an interesting thought.... one that doesn't get brought up very much because Sashi Brown came after Farmer. Farmer probably wasn't ready for a full on GM position. I think the article might have been trying to insinuate that. Sashi DEFINITELY wasn't ready for a full GM role, but as the article stated, there were some extra circumstances with that, which I will get into later.
Hue, it would seem after how this season went, deserved to be fired. I also don't buy how Hue was oversold the team/plan during his interview. I will say, though, that if Hue lost his mind over trading away the punter I can only imagine what happened when we gave Haden away to a division opponent (one that really doesn't need any more help). W/o painfully rehashing the Hue debates, I think this season speaks for itself whether or not firing Hue was the right move.

Haslam.... hoooooweeeee.... We all knew he didn't know what he was doing and was a terrible leader, but man....
I'm generally pretty confident that nothing about this team can shock me anymore, but the parts about how he promoted Farmer without interviewing him... promoted Sashi and bought into the tank for picks plan just to bail on it, hired Hue instead of McDermit (sp?) when everyone else disagreed, strong-armed Farmer to draft Manziel.... we could go on and on but the point is that these are things that terrible leaders do, and don't think twice about. The whole firing without giving a reason thing is just straight up unprofessional. I'm sure there's a stronger word than unprofessional, but I can't find it. It's amazing anybody will come and work here.

I can keep going on and on. I'll try to wrap it up.

I came away from this article feeling a little sorry for Farmer and Sashi. Farmer was clearly not at all prepared for a GM role, much less one reporting to Haslam. Sashi maybe was a little better prepared in terms of working with Haslam, but he didn't have the football chops to get it done, and Haslam just straight up stabbed him in the back. It's painful to read the part where Farmer figured out he was going to get screwed, Jimmy said no and then screwed him over. The Sashi thing is similar, but way worse, imo. Sashi got straight up stabbed in the back. Yes, from a talent evaluation standpoint he didn't know what he was doing, but they had a very clear plan, and even executed that plan pretty well (the plan was to suck, and we SUCKED). Haslam was explained the plan, but then couldn't take the painful parts and stabbed Sashi in the back.
I think Farmer and Sashi both sucked at their jobs, but I still feel bad for them. They didn't deserve to be done like that.

Given what I just read, I don't see how we can ever say confidently that Haslam can keep from repeating these problems. They stem from poor leadership coupled with an ego/attitude that totally prevents him from taking said poor leadership out of the equation. He loves bold ideas, but won't allow the time or effort to implement said ideas. He's thin-skinned but is probably the most unprofessional of the group. I hope Dorsey keeps walking on water, because it doesn't seem like anything can buy anyone patience working for him. He doesn't have the guts to see a plan through the tough times. What happens when this rebuild stalls? What happens when Kitchens starts going through his HC learning curve?

I'm seriously considering canceling my trip to The Island... :-p

That's probably the most unremarkable part of the article. Which is saying something.

"Crazy" is not the word I would use. That's too safe.

DiamDawg should be pissed seeing this excerpt. I am too, as I liked Mitch, but knew we needed Garrett.

I want to know who has a microphone in the Browns headquarters.. This stuff spans years of coaches and GM's. No one has this much inside knowledge without a LOT of fill in the blanks from several pissed off ex employees.

There are a lot of ex-employees.

Hue probably should have been fired at that point, but the truth is Haslem's structure is what caused the issue. Sashi/Depo didn't want Hue as he wasn't fully on board with the plan, and didn't possess the qualities that they thought would be successful. Haslem basically hired Hue anyway and a shotgun wedding was on the way yet again in Berea.

Hiring Sashi was a bad idea, and I'm not a Sashi hater as I think he did a pretty good job with what he was handed and the experience he had. They should have hired an experienced GM who was analytically friendly and let him run the drafts. I'm not saying Sashi/Depo shouldn't have had a voice (heck Depo does now) but it was way to much to put on guy who had never been around a professional football team to run it without being mentored properly.

Haslem coupled the bad decision of hiring Sashi with pairing him with a HC who not only didn't agree with the analytical plan, but in hindsight wasn't very good at his job. The losing mounted and rats began casting blame before they got tossed off the ship.

We should have fired everyone mid-season last year and allowed Dorsey to hire his HC last year......it cost us a year of development potentially.

So in short this statement doesn't surprise me all that much because Haslem created an atmosphere of unprofessionalism by hiring a lawyer who had never had any experience in a football FO, married him to a coach he didn't like, and then let that HC report to him. So a guy like Hue who has demonstrated an attitude of being unprofessional just took advantage of it.

Hopefully this is fixed moving forward with Dorsey/Kitchens

Totally my opinion but I do not think Randy cared. He inherited the team and wanted nothing to do with it. He hired anyone he could find to take the reigns so he wouldn't have to. He only stepped in when fan uproar made it impossible not to. Holmgren was brought in to be the head man in charge and run the organization. He basically took RLs money and crapped on the organization. And when it became evident that finding a guy he could trust to run the whole show was not working he sold. I will take a guy who actually cares and makes mistakes over a guy who does not care every time.

With all of the dysfunction, Hue seemed to be in the middle of all of it. He was pretty quick to point fingers.

He is also the one who went to Jimmy to trade for McCarron.

Thank God Sashi undermined that.

If it works out that Freddie is the guy, then he wouldn't have been hire last season.


Sometimes things work out the way they are supposed to work out.

A thought on Sashi. In all of this, he comes out pretty clean.

I think he and a few others stuck with the plan and had no intention of turning on Hue. I think Jimmies ego got in the way and he listened to Hue since Hue was his guy.

In the end, it wasn't mentioned in the article, but I feel pretty good adding my opinion here, I think Hue went to the well one to many times. I think he was going to Jimmy earlier this past season and started ragging on Dorsey. I think Jimmy finally heard enough and backed Dorsey. Sounds like Hue was complaining about everybody.

If Jimmy hadn't grown in the role, he might have kept Hue, told Dorsey to shut up and we would be picking 2nd in the draft this year.

This article explains a lot of what I have wondered about over the years and confirms a lot of what I had assumed over the years.

The sad trail of dysfunction unfortunately didn't start with Haslam, though he continued it with perfection.

I actually think Dee would be more level headed and objective.

I agree with that. We have had maybe 7-8 "GM's" or whatever you want to call it since 99. It's been a revolving door.

j/c:

I remember when I got laughed at for saying Gilbert was someone Pettine really wanted, even after providing audio.

With Farmer conceding Manziel to what Haslem wanted, it's so obvious how much Farmer failed to take the reigns and own the GM position. Still, he was able to get us Joel Bitonio, Duke Johnson, Christian Kirksey, Pierre Desir (prospering in Indy) Cam Erving (who got extended in KC)

That's about it though.

99 person
Butch Davis
Phil Savage
George Kokinis
Eric Mangini
Mike Holmgren
Joe Banner
Sashi Brown
John Dorsey

And she has been more involved the last few seasons, at least in the public eye. Not sure how it has been since then.

Maybe she had added some ballast in the tanks to start to steady the ship.

When a ship is bobbing around on the top of the storm waves, it can be a pretty rough ride.

We are at the point of I no longer give a damn about any of the past.

Bottom line we have the top analytics department, one of the strongest and most talented front offices, franchise QB, and now on paper what appears to be a top coaching staff loaded with thinkers.

Jimmy may have finally gotten it right and it may be by luck or karma giving us a break but I am happy and just see no reason to dwell on the negativity we have been in for the last 20 years. Things are good enjoy!

Thanks for sharing. This article confirms the saying "browns gonna brown."

Haslam needs to stay as far away as possible from this team. Really frustrating how he fires folks with no explanation. Like who does that?

The Farmer draft situation with Gilbert and Manziel is infuriating. Farmer got ALLLLLLLL the blame for drafting those two. Glad its being reported otherwise. Folks flamed Farmer for not interviewing Gilbert. Now we know why. Farmer didn't want him! I think we all knew Haslam had a role in wanting Manziel, but this confirms the pick is 100% Haslam. Manziel texting one of the coaches ... so typical.

The 4 year plan that was supposed to take place with Sashi. I mean an exec literally said you don't wanna be at the games for the first 2 years, but then coaches/staff are expecting 7-8 wins. How sway? #cmonson

Also thought it was interesting that Hue wasn't the favorite. From a media perspective, he was the easy favorite. Nothing like starting a new job, and no one thinks you deserve it.

End of the day, Haslam is a horrible owner. Confirms for me that privileged folks always talk a big game, always think they know whats going to happen, but then fall flat on their face. Then its everyone elses fault.

This is a kids game. You win by acquiring talent, especially at QB, and you keep that talent. We did everything the opposite way.

I refuse to give Dorsey all the credit after one season, but I am glad he finally got a QB high in the draft, and I'm glad that the reporting structure has changed. I just hope Dorsey's ego doesn't get in the way of the Browns long-term success.

I was hoping for the dirt on Kokinis. Luckily for Jimmy, Georgie K isn't on his ledger.

I sure hope so.

I agree.

I thought it a interesting read, but I agree. As Freddie said, that all stops today.


We'll see if he is right, but I am hoping and thinking so.

I don't agree with that at all.

You might be getting a little to political for the football forum.


Say what you want, but I have never heard Haslam blame someone else about the Browns failures. He has always put it on his shoulders.


Let's just move on from this discussion. Thanks.

I think we do as well.

We can debate a number of players, but Ogunjobi was a analytics pick, as was Higgins. Baker as well even if Dorsey had him pegged from the football side. We could probably name others who weren't top picks of the scouting department.


Schobert might be one. It's not like Sashi and crew didn't listen to the scouts. Why even have a scouting group if you didn't take their view in to account?

Just do it all on the computer.