www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25797430/inside-cleveland-browns-front-office-where-hope-history-collide

After reading that my biggest thought is god Haslam is a horrible human being

Everyone should read this article.

Garbage! We traded out of getting Watson!




Wow




I lol'd I love Dorsey





Most of us have been critical of his reporting structures in the past. It was always stupid to have a coach reporting to the Owner, no good franchises are run like this outside of serious anomalies like New England.

Sometimes I wonder about these journalists. They don't even acknowledge the Chicken vs the Egg theory.

Fact is we were a woeful organization and it was primarily due to a lack of Talent and Failed draft picks as we had many. None lack great than that of a Franchise QB. They act as if the variables have not changed and its a disfunction waiting to happen.

No, can't they see the first FOOTBALL MAN in Dorsey to come aboard. Cant they see the first HC hire that actually does not tear down the team and constitutes a rebuild. Do they not see how we made these moves and it actually is one of Continuity not rebuild.

Don't they get it...we were a team woefully missing on draft picks And in one short year we got a team with talent a team that has some excellent draft picks on the team.

But they wish to paint a picture of dysfunction. Don't they understand this is a new page of our Franchise.

???

Good article.
Sad history.
Let’s hope it’s just that... history.
On to the 2019 season. Let the winning begin.




Please.

Very interesting read, thanks for sharing. I'm hoping that the structure now in place lays the foundation for positive collaboration and eliminates the alleged in fighting because it was doomed to failure due to self vested interest if you believe the article. Folk like Farmer, Brown and Jackson have been portrayed by some as inept but there are mitigating factors - nothing is ever black or white. Rejecting a 2nd for Hoyer was insane if that was true.

Onwards and upwards fingers x'd....

The article is about the owner. The owner is dysfunctional. He has done nothing to show that he should be trusted.

Also the author is trying to describe the dysfunction as a way of the Cleveland Browns...but lets face it, at the END (so and so is fired) you can expect some bad behavior from Coaching staff and FO. But it doesn't define how it is day to day...especially with the new guys.

Just what is Jackson going to say, fact is its probably true that he was losing the TEAM, 3 wins in 40 games will get you loads of grumbling despite the fact that we went overtime in games.
FACT is we went in overtime of games that we were Ahead. Fact is we would find ways to LOSE. I can definitely see Hue losing the team which doesn't mean we weren't competitive, It mean we were LOSERS point blank, LOSERS!! and that can only go so far with players.

Sounds like the team would be better off if Dee were the sole owner.

I wouldn't trust Jimmy, ever.

Jimmy and Dee, you've learned everything you need to know about the NFL: Leave it in the GM's hands.

Oh my god....there is so much to unpack in this story.

You wanna know what's really funny, generally, ESPN is considered less than accurate usually. Unless of course, it's to bash Haslam.

In what circumstance is ESPN generally inaccurate? Their reporting is usually pretty solid.

Seth Wickersham is also very thorough. You can tell he has been working on this story for quite some time. Also, some of the information confirms what we already caught wind of.

Many of us weren't happy about the structure of both the GM and HC reporting to Haslam. Most of us didn't think it made any sense and went against the natural order of a business structure.

But the one common factor was the infighting in what seems like every regime. That I don't see as abnormal. It's the human nature of things. I would see it otherwise if the team had success. But when the walls cave in human nature takes over survival instincts kick in. When you feel your livelihood is threatened most will resort to playing the blame game. Most become disheveled and things break down.

I will certainly give you kudos for posting this article Peen. You have been a staunch supporter of the Haslam's and this article doesn't shed the best light on them.

Who should play Jimmy when this becomes an ESPN/ABC movie of the week?

Some great insights as to what has gone on behind the scenes these last few years. Good read.

It seems like Haslam has the right intentions, but he can't get out of his own way. He wants to be the guy that is well informed and knows what he's doing, but he's too quick to push the reset button or see things out. He also needs to learn when to sit back and let others do their job.

I mentioned in a different thread that there should be a "Moneyball 2" movie about the Browns, with Jonah Hill reprising his role as Paul Depodesta (Peter Brand). Clint Eastwood could probably work for Haslam. As often as Haslam fired people, I could see him walking into people's offices and saying, "You feeling lucky punk?"

It's a new day in Cleveland keep the past in the past and look forward to bright future ...

Maybe they could just have Trump walking into offices yelling, "You're fired!" It seemed to work well on The Apprentice.

I still support Haslam. I didn't like the way everybody reported to him, and it is evident as reported in the story it caused dysfunction at the top. I also think it sheds light on a lot of people who have been given support.

I feel good with Haslam at this point. He went with the coach the group presented to him. In the past he told Sashi and Depo to basically buzz off, Hue was going to be the coach. He wasn't involved to any degree with the introductory press conference. It was just John and Freddie.

We're in a good spot.

The NFL is a tough business. You can not buy wins.

The financial structure of football makes you earn every victory. If the owner doesn't have the knowledge and insight in how to build a team; then everybody pays.

In my opinion the article doesn't paint Haslam as a villain.

What it does make clear is that he didn't know what he was doing. He was trying to learn the business from all those involved. His methodology was to ask everybody and try to find the answers within.

I can understand that. I mean given where he came from. How would anybody learn?

Owners across the league all have their own ways. Jerry Jones, Lurie, Rooney's, Kraft. All try to do it their way.

Haslam tried and fell on his face.

Now he is taking a different approach. Dorsey produced results. He proved he knows what he is doing.

Haslam was smart enough to see that the mirror does not lie. That Dorsey needs to be the single point of contact and run the show.

That is a big page to turn.

If we can win Haslam will back off. Start losing and he will most likely step back in.

Nice summary. I never thought that Jimmy was cheap or didn't want to win. It was just a matter of the marriage in whatever form just wasn't going to work.

Well it certainly didn't paint him in a good light until he hired Dorsey. But every indication is that he's learned and he now gets it. So I would say we're in abetter spot than we've been in since our return in 1999.

j/c:

If we don't win, in the end the owner is always the one to step in. It may not be with the coach, but it would be with the GM.

Being a owner has a learning curve just like anything else, especially to a person who wants to be involved and learn about the game. Our last owner wasn't involved because he didn't really care about the NFL. He just happened to have a father who left him a football team when he died.

I think that this shows that Haslem completely fails to understand that football is a competitive business. It is collaborative, but it is also a business of people, with different opinions. This is not a bad thing, as long as there is a single leader, who can cut through all of the various opinions, and all of the minutiae, and arrive at a consensus. Now a consensus doesn't have to mean that everyone changes their opinion and falls lockstep in line behind a particular decision, but that they are heard and understood ..... and their opinion is valued, and that there are solid reasons for a particular choice over a different one that everyone can support.

Dorsey said that Baker was a 100% choice for the team. Do I necessarily believe that? No. What I do believe is that the decision makers did their evaluations, and arrived at a consensus .... a pick they could agree on ..... and anyone with a different view was heard and respected.

Dorsey has been all about respecting the contributions and opinions of everyone, even if he happens to disagree. I think that a dissenting opinion can be valuable. Maybe someone uncovers a concern that either eliminates that player, or perhaps an area that needs a greater deal of coaching that can be worked on with the coaching or support staff.

Differing opinions are extremely valuable, as long as they are managed properly. I think that mismanaging different voices and opinions is what has caused almost every problem Haslem has had since buying the Browns. Hopefully he has learned that not every different voice and/or opinion is a revolt.

Who comes up with this dribble ? Its like reading a lifetime movie with all the drama. Could care less about what someone thinks he or she heard from someone who knew someone that was in a position to maybe know something. Eveyone has an axe to grind and was/is part of the problem.. As far as Haslem goes.. He OWNS the place and like Jerry.. Meddles where he shouldn't at time and doesn't when he should. Part of learning and being the boss. He AINT going away unless one of us can come with a billion dollars and have LOADS of reserve.

Like when he is quoted as saying he didn't want help from the nerds? That kind of "respect"?

Yet later in the article it says that Dorsey accepted their information, and used it in the process.

First and foremost... Wow. I don't think that one word can ever be said loudly enough or enough times for this story. Kudos to ESPN and the author for this.

I feel like at least 2 sagas where I said "we probably won't ever know the full story" were covered here.

I gotta read over this at least one more time, and maybe even read through all the remarks on here before I comment. An article like this deserves so much more than a hurried response.

Yeah, after he found out how asinine of a statement that was. It's kind of like the "not real players" comment as well. He quickly had to walk that ridiculous statement back too.

Hey, at least he is learning right?

Great article....just wished it would have told the story of the failed AJ McCarron trade...that had to be a trip.

Based on the timing of the article, I wonder if he got most of his material in Mobile at a meeting of the "former Browns coaches" after they were good and... lubricated. I'm not saying it isn't true, but possibly a bit one-sided in perspective.

Hopefully this go around works out.

This is a story based on months of reporting, not one night in Mobile.

j/c:

FYI John Dorsey is supposed to be on the Bull & Fox show this afternoon. Of course this article will be brought up. Dorsey pushed back the time of his interview by an hour, most likely to prep further after this article was dropped. It should be a good listen.

He may have said that, but he has also warmed up to Depodesta and what he does. I think that just goes with trust and knowledge.

I suppose the way he rated that was Depo must have had players rated very close to what John had. Differing methods to arrive at similar rating is a good thing. Kind of acts as a cross check.

I know someone said it was 100% on Baker as the draft choice, and it may have been at the end, but in all he articles leading up to the draft, I read one where Depo was the only person in the group that had Baker ranked #1. At that point, nobody knew who Dorsey had as the top QB.

Maybe it was at that point that Dorsey thought that "this Nerd" might be more valuable than he was giving him credit.

I don't know, he replaced over 30 players on the roster. Evidence would suggest he pretty much believed it.

Could be, but then that is pretty normal when a new GM hits town. Some of the players let go weren't bad players.

I've often seen players that weren't bad players, simply not fit or perform where they currently are. I mean we can look at Robinson and Perriman to see that. I'm sure that both of their former teams felt they weren't "real players " either. And where they were before they arrived here, they weren't. Nobody cuts former first round players if they are being "real players".

But when you look at the tape of a team and you don't see real players, you see what you see. And yes, when a new GM takes over, there are usually some huge roster turnovers. But when have you seen a team that had real play makers have their GM fired? Because I think we all knew that's what he meant.

Out of the RB's, only one is left. Out of the QB's, none are left. What people felt were out two best WR's, Gordon and Coleman are both gone. That's due to a need, not just a new GM's roster turnover.

jc...

I've got to say, nothing in this article that surprises me. The Browns went from bad to worse once Haslam bought the team.

The question in my mind..can the Haslams keep their hands off long enough to allow Dorsey and the staff to build a successful franchise in Cleveland?

Great read imo. Ownership seems to actually be learning. Some of the alleged anecdotes are pretty savage.

The question I have at this point is if Jimmy will act like the kid who can’t beat a certain level in a video game, eventually passing the controller to his friend so he can do it for him. As soon as the friend beats the level, or even hints at beating it, will Jimmy demand the controller back, thinking he’s good to go now and claiming credit?

I guess we’ll find out. So far so good.

Still think Haslam is better than Randy Lerner. At least Haslam did what he thought was best for the team. Even though he was wrong I will take that level of dysfunction over just not giving a crap any day.

so this guy is a horrible business owner and a horrible football owner?

i thought we already knew these things on this board? you guys talk about it all the time.

Sometimes it may be best to hire football people and keep your hands off of things. That's what Randy did. It sounds like now that Haslam is starting to act more like Randy, things are looking up.

That's what Randy did, unfortunately he didn't hire very good football people... his record isn't all that much better.

Looks to me like Jimmy is a micromanager by nature and got into a business he didn't fully understand and tried to micromanage those who do understand it.

Reads like he was always very eager to learn and the understand but he just couldn't help but inject his opinion and even pull rank on occasion... Hopefully he has learned...

The article indicates he has. At least at this point.

My comments are more directed to those that claim Randy didn't care. Nobody owns a huge corporation and doesn't want to make money from it. Winning will do that.

Haslam hired a lot of the wrong people too. That doesn't mean he didn't care either. It's just now that he's not interfering with the football people, just like Randy was doing, things are getting better.

Great article... very informative. For me the biggest takeaway was that Jimmy has been a notorious micro manager. Well intentioned for sure and it can seem like a good idea to be asking everyone throughout the organization how they think everyone else is doing... but that just breeds conflict when the team struggles early.

Dorsey is the right guy that gives us the best chance with this owner because Dorsey is a strong personality. His prior success and early success should buy plenty of ammo to shut down Jimmy if he starts meddling again.

No guarantee though cuz Jimmy is the owner and can do whatever he wants ultimately.

Jimmy... if you read this... please just stay out of the way. Most owners are mia most the time and there is a reason for that.

Dee saved him? LOLetc!

I think things have improved mightily. Dorsey is working some magic in Berea. Let's go to the Combine so I can ignore ESPN and the other gurus.

I so look forward to it.

Owners/senior management also need to understand that they can't just weigh in with their opinion... people respond to their opinion, people want to do what the boss wants to do.. or they feel obligated to do it.. because if the boss thinks A but you do B and B doesn't work, you are likely fired... even though A might have been worse... doesn't matter.

Possibly the most Hue Jackson thing ever is losing him mind of trading a punter who was subsequently cut. That man is THE most clueless coaches I have EVER seen in Cleveland.

And see, here I had no idea he had a multiple personality disorder. That explains a lot!

Our owner called an employee Obama because he was black and went to Harvard.

Can we talk about how crazy the above statement is?

You keep referencing this 30 player roster turnover to justify the “no real players” statement. So, lets look at that turnover in more detail. Firstly, let’s talk draft picks.

Cleveland had 12 draft picks going into 2018, before FA. During FA, one pick was used on Landry, another was used on Taylor. Whether or not these moves are deemed good or bad (another conversation entirely), the picks were used on veterans instead of college players. But they would have been used regardless…most likely on college players by the past regime. The Randall trade is essentially a wash in terms of player/draft capital because it was a 3 for 3 exchange. Then there is the actual 8 picks used in the draft (not counting the one extra from a trade by Dorsey the day of the draft, I think)

We’re talking 12 players as a result of draft picks that would have been used by either regime, and thus, a part of each’s regimes roster turnover. So those transactions are out of the equation as far as your argument is concerned.

So…now we’re down to 18. That’s very different look, isn’t it?

Then let’s talk about moves made by cutting 2017 players and then signing/trading for other players.

Meder is cut for Lawrence who, himself is cut a month later.
Nassib is cut for Zettel which was bad move
Crowell is let go and we sign Hyde, who is traded mid-season. ( Oddly enough because of Chubb, who isn’t on this team most likely if not for the added draft pick in the second round by the last regime)
We sign Gaines (bad deal so far)
We trade McCourty and sign Carrie ( a net loss )

Let’s not forget Joe Thomas’ retirement that obviously forced us to add ‘a new body’ to the roster.

Now we’re talking 12 roster spots. Now who are they? Backups and STers. Not all, but a decent amount.

This isn’t to hate on Dorsey as I’ve liked a good amount of what he has done. It’s this 30 player roster turnover that is laughable as an argument for the team's success.

The reason we are successful is because we have a franchise QB (one you hated on pre-draft and any poster who liked him) and it elevated the talent already on this roster. Sorry.

Alright. Work calmed down a bit for today, and I read through the article twice and skimmed the comments.

1st, I gotta get one thing out of the way. Normally, my favorite thing is to bash ESPN and its content creators... but believe me when I say this isn't one of those times. Even though I'm going to criticize, overall my hat is tipped to this reporter.

After really digging into this article, I gotta say I was left wanting. This article is great for your average NFL fan, but for Browns fans that follow the team and remember these things going down (even Holmgren really wasn't all that long ago, though it feels like ages), we know a bunch of some of the juiciest stuff was left out. While I acknowledge that if the writer went into detail about every single hilariously bad thing these regimes did during their short times together, the article would be a book... but there were still some HUGE things that were left out, and that paired with some of the takes in the article makes my brain scream 'bias'.
Again, and I know it sounds weird, but I don't want to bash the writer... I'm just saying.... not a single word about Shanny's powerpoint slides? A single line about our GM getting suspended for texting the coaches? Not a word about Farmer not interviewing either Gilbert or Manziel (IIRC)? Not a word about McCarron-Gate? They touched on the coaching search that resulted in Pettine, but left out the parts about Banner's interaction with Whisenhunt (IIRC) where he questioned the staff he wanted to bring in. He made the curious statement about how Jackson started Kizer, but left out the part about sending everyone else off the roster before the start of the season.

The point of the article was to bash Haslam... and I agree with that. Haslam deserves all the bashing he's received... and then some, given some of the details behind his decisions, as revealed in this article. And while he's at the top, so ultimately he is accountable for everything going on, the stupidity isn't limited to what he says and does. The stuff I mentioned above had little to nothing to do with Haslam (other than he hired those people), and that's just off the top of my head. Banner got fired because he kinda sucked as a leader, was terrible to deal with, brought in Lombardi, botched the coaching search that resulted in Pettine, which was on the heels of Chud getting fired under real weird circumstances.
Farmer deserved to get fired. While this article paints a sympathetic picture of Farmer during that Gilbert/Manziel draft.... he didn't even interview Gilbert and picked him in the top10. Dude was texting the sidelines and got in trouble for it. Guy deserved the axe... but there's an interesting thought.... one that doesn't get brought up very much because Sashi Brown came after Farmer. Farmer probably wasn't ready for a full on GM position. I think the article might have been trying to insinuate that. Sashi DEFINITELY wasn't ready for a full GM role, but as the article stated, there were some extra circumstances with that, which I will get into later.
Hue, it would seem after how this season went, deserved to be fired. I also don't buy how Hue was oversold the team/plan during his interview. I will say, though, that if Hue lost his mind over trading away the punter I can only imagine what happened when we gave Haden away to a division opponent (one that really doesn't need any more help). W/o painfully rehashing the Hue debates, I think this season speaks for itself whether or not firing Hue was the right move.

Haslam.... hoooooweeeee.... We all knew he didn't know what he was doing and was a terrible leader, but man....
I'm generally pretty confident that nothing about this team can shock me anymore, but the parts about how he promoted Farmer without interviewing him... promoted Sashi and bought into the tank for picks plan just to bail on it, hired Hue instead of McDermit (sp?) when everyone else disagreed, strong-armed Farmer to draft Manziel.... we could go on and on but the point is that these are things that terrible leaders do, and don't think twice about. The whole firing without giving a reason thing is just straight up unprofessional. I'm sure there's a stronger word than unprofessional, but I can't find it. It's amazing anybody will come and work here.

I can keep going on and on. I'll try to wrap it up.

I came away from this article feeling a little sorry for Farmer and Sashi. Farmer was clearly not at all prepared for a GM role, much less one reporting to Haslam. Sashi maybe was a little better prepared in terms of working with Haslam, but he didn't have the football chops to get it done, and Haslam just straight up stabbed him in the back. It's painful to read the part where Farmer figured out he was going to get screwed, Jimmy said no and then screwed him over. The Sashi thing is similar, but way worse, imo. Sashi got straight up stabbed in the back. Yes, from a talent evaluation standpoint he didn't know what he was doing, but they had a very clear plan, and even executed that plan pretty well (the plan was to suck, and we SUCKED). Haslam was explained the plan, but then couldn't take the painful parts and stabbed Sashi in the back.
I think Farmer and Sashi both sucked at their jobs, but I still feel bad for them. They didn't deserve to be done like that.

Given what I just read, I don't see how we can ever say confidently that Haslam can keep from repeating these problems. They stem from poor leadership coupled with an ego/attitude that totally prevents him from taking said poor leadership out of the equation. He loves bold ideas, but won't allow the time or effort to implement said ideas. He's thin-skinned but is probably the most unprofessional of the group. I hope Dorsey keeps walking on water, because it doesn't seem like anything can buy anyone patience working for him. He doesn't have the guts to see a plan through the tough times. What happens when this rebuild stalls? What happens when Kitchens starts going through his HC learning curve?

I'm seriously considering canceling my trip to The Island... :-p

That's probably the most unremarkable part of the article. Which is saying something.

"Crazy" is not the word I would use. That's too safe.

DiamDawg should be pissed seeing this excerpt. I am too, as I liked Mitch, but knew we needed Garrett.

I want to know who has a microphone in the Browns headquarters.. This stuff spans years of coaches and GM's. No one has this much inside knowledge without a LOT of fill in the blanks from several pissed off ex employees.

There are a lot of ex-employees.

Hue probably should have been fired at that point, but the truth is Haslem's structure is what caused the issue. Sashi/Depo didn't want Hue as he wasn't fully on board with the plan, and didn't possess the qualities that they thought would be successful. Haslem basically hired Hue anyway and a shotgun wedding was on the way yet again in Berea.

Hiring Sashi was a bad idea, and I'm not a Sashi hater as I think he did a pretty good job with what he was handed and the experience he had. They should have hired an experienced GM who was analytically friendly and let him run the drafts. I'm not saying Sashi/Depo shouldn't have had a voice (heck Depo does now) but it was way to much to put on guy who had never been around a professional football team to run it without being mentored properly.

Haslem coupled the bad decision of hiring Sashi with pairing him with a HC who not only didn't agree with the analytical plan, but in hindsight wasn't very good at his job. The losing mounted and rats began casting blame before they got tossed off the ship.

We should have fired everyone mid-season last year and allowed Dorsey to hire his HC last year......it cost us a year of development potentially.

So in short this statement doesn't surprise me all that much because Haslem created an atmosphere of unprofessionalism by hiring a lawyer who had never had any experience in a football FO, married him to a coach he didn't like, and then let that HC report to him. So a guy like Hue who has demonstrated an attitude of being unprofessional just took advantage of it.

Hopefully this is fixed moving forward with Dorsey/Kitchens

Totally my opinion but I do not think Randy cared. He inherited the team and wanted nothing to do with it. He hired anyone he could find to take the reigns so he wouldn't have to. He only stepped in when fan uproar made it impossible not to. Holmgren was brought in to be the head man in charge and run the organization. He basically took RLs money and crapped on the organization. And when it became evident that finding a guy he could trust to run the whole show was not working he sold. I will take a guy who actually cares and makes mistakes over a guy who does not care every time.

With all of the dysfunction, Hue seemed to be in the middle of all of it. He was pretty quick to point fingers.

He is also the one who went to Jimmy to trade for McCarron.

Thank God Sashi undermined that.

If it works out that Freddie is the guy, then he wouldn't have been hire last season.


Sometimes things work out the way they are supposed to work out.

A thought on Sashi. In all of this, he comes out pretty clean.

I think he and a few others stuck with the plan and had no intention of turning on Hue. I think Jimmies ego got in the way and he listened to Hue since Hue was his guy.

In the end, it wasn't mentioned in the article, but I feel pretty good adding my opinion here, I think Hue went to the well one to many times. I think he was going to Jimmy earlier this past season and started ragging on Dorsey. I think Jimmy finally heard enough and backed Dorsey. Sounds like Hue was complaining about everybody.

If Jimmy hadn't grown in the role, he might have kept Hue, told Dorsey to shut up and we would be picking 2nd in the draft this year.

This article explains a lot of what I have wondered about over the years and confirms a lot of what I had assumed over the years.

The sad trail of dysfunction unfortunately didn't start with Haslam, though he continued it with perfection.

I actually think Dee would be more level headed and objective.

I agree with that. We have had maybe 7-8 "GM's" or whatever you want to call it since 99. It's been a revolving door.

j/c:

I remember when I got laughed at for saying Gilbert was someone Pettine really wanted, even after providing audio.

With Farmer conceding Manziel to what Haslem wanted, it's so obvious how much Farmer failed to take the reigns and own the GM position. Still, he was able to get us Joel Bitonio, Duke Johnson, Christian Kirksey, Pierre Desir (prospering in Indy) Cam Erving (who got extended in KC)

That's about it though.

99 person
Butch Davis
Phil Savage
George Kokinis
Eric Mangini
Mike Holmgren
Joe Banner
Sashi Brown
John Dorsey

And she has been more involved the last few seasons, at least in the public eye. Not sure how it has been since then.

Maybe she had added some ballast in the tanks to start to steady the ship.

When a ship is bobbing around on the top of the storm waves, it can be a pretty rough ride.

We are at the point of I no longer give a damn about any of the past.

Bottom line we have the top analytics department, one of the strongest and most talented front offices, franchise QB, and now on paper what appears to be a top coaching staff loaded with thinkers.

Jimmy may have finally gotten it right and it may be by luck or karma giving us a break but I am happy and just see no reason to dwell on the negativity we have been in for the last 20 years. Things are good enjoy!

Thanks for sharing. This article confirms the saying "browns gonna brown."

Haslam needs to stay as far away as possible from this team. Really frustrating how he fires folks with no explanation. Like who does that?

The Farmer draft situation with Gilbert and Manziel is infuriating. Farmer got ALLLLLLLL the blame for drafting those two. Glad its being reported otherwise. Folks flamed Farmer for not interviewing Gilbert. Now we know why. Farmer didn't want him! I think we all knew Haslam had a role in wanting Manziel, but this confirms the pick is 100% Haslam. Manziel texting one of the coaches ... so typical.

The 4 year plan that was supposed to take place with Sashi. I mean an exec literally said you don't wanna be at the games for the first 2 years, but then coaches/staff are expecting 7-8 wins. How sway? #cmonson

Also thought it was interesting that Hue wasn't the favorite. From a media perspective, he was the easy favorite. Nothing like starting a new job, and no one thinks you deserve it.

End of the day, Haslam is a horrible owner. Confirms for me that privileged folks always talk a big game, always think they know whats going to happen, but then fall flat on their face. Then its everyone elses fault.

This is a kids game. You win by acquiring talent, especially at QB, and you keep that talent. We did everything the opposite way.

I refuse to give Dorsey all the credit after one season, but I am glad he finally got a QB high in the draft, and I'm glad that the reporting structure has changed. I just hope Dorsey's ego doesn't get in the way of the Browns long-term success.

I was hoping for the dirt on Kokinis. Luckily for Jimmy, Georgie K isn't on his ledger.

I sure hope so.

I agree.

I thought it a interesting read, but I agree. As Freddie said, that all stops today.


We'll see if he is right, but I am hoping and thinking so.

I don't agree with that at all.

You might be getting a little to political for the football forum.


Say what you want, but I have never heard Haslam blame someone else about the Browns failures. He has always put it on his shoulders.


Let's just move on from this discussion. Thanks.

I think we do as well.

We can debate a number of players, but Ogunjobi was a analytics pick, as was Higgins. Baker as well even if Dorsey had him pegged from the football side. We could probably name others who weren't top picks of the scouting department.


Schobert might be one. It's not like Sashi and crew didn't listen to the scouts. Why even have a scouting group if you didn't take their view in to account?

Just do it all on the computer.

We have beat this thing to death for so long.

And yet? Now this article comes out and all the crap floats back up to the surface.

I don't care.

It's past tense. I care about what is here now.

I look forward to free agency and the draft. Want to see how we improve.

Then it is all about Freddie and his staff to build a winner.

Those who want to wallow in this crap have at it.

I should amend my comment from "I sure hope so" to "I sure hope they are used".

https://sports.yahoo.com/browns-dysfunction-runs-deep-new-espn-report-5-reasons-may-180043174.html


Browns dysfunction runs deep in new ESPN report, but there are 5 reasons it may be over


Cassandra NegleyYahoo SportsJan 24, 2019, 1:00 PM

The Cleveland Browns are the NFL poster team for dysfunction and regime changes. As each new story regarding it is released, there are new little tidbits that add flavor to the Dawg Pound of fury.

The latest: details around the exact moment former Browns head coach Hue Jackson was let go. From Seth Wickersham of ESPN:

Jackson asked why he was being fired.
The team quit on you, Dorsey replied.
At the time, four of the eight Browns games had gone to overtime.
“Get the f— out of my office,” Jackson said.
The Thursday morning piece, titled “The clash of the Cleveland Browns: How Hue Jackson, Jimmy Haslam and Baker Mayfield collided,” offers much of the same to previous reports in terms of in-fighting, draft power moves and a lack of true leadership. But there may be reason to be hopeful if the closing stanza to Wickersham’s reporting is any indication.

1. Jimmy Haslam maybe, just maybe, is taking a seat

Jimmy Haslam, who owns the team with his wife Dee, is the root of all problems. Terry Pluto wrote as much in an excerpt of his new book, “The Browns Blues,” last month for The Athletic.

Wickersham brought it into a larger light, describing the 64-year-old owner as one who likes to listen and is accessible to nearly all in the building. That’s great to foster ideas, gauge thoughts and assess a team working toward one goal. It’s troublesome when you take every idea equally, turn every thought into an actionable item and inadvertently set a team into personal survival mode.

It seems as though that’s what Haslam did. The ESPN report showed he was too involved in every aspect and didn’t allow those he hired to function in their role properly. A good boss delegates, allows employees to fulfill their duties, and steps in when needed and necessary.

That aspect of dysfunction runs throughout every story, every tidbit and every idea following.

For the sign that might change look no further than the press conference announcing Freddie Kitchens as the new head coach. The Haslams did not make the announcement, as they have before. They instead sat and listened. Wickersham also notes that for the first time Haslam did not have friends in the team’s draft war room.

2. Sticking with a new ‘idea’ in Baker Mayfield

“Haslam is dazzled by the promise of new ideas,” Wickersham writes. He later adds that the owner “refuses to commit to a football ideology long enough to see it through.”

The new ideology is Baker Mayfield. He’s a front runner for rookie of the year honors, threw for 3,725 yards — sixth-most for a rookie in NFL history — and emboldened a fan base by waking up Sunday mornings “feeling dangerous.”

He did not get a say in the hiring, but his thoughts were taken into consideration. The two bonded during a 5-3 finish to close the season and sing each other’s praises.

Another glimmer: Kitchens told Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer this week he isn’t looking to change who Mayfield is off the field. That will put to ease any worries the two will clash over it in the upcoming months.

3. Kitchens: the old guy and the new one

It can help to know how to, in a way, play the system. And it’s still a complicated system in Cleveland.

Kitchens was promoted from within and that can be a good thing, even if it comes from dysfunction. Kitchens should at least have an idea of how Haslam and other top brass operate. He can work inside of or around that.

It was a collaborative hire, unlike those in the past. That’s not to say there aren’t questions around Kitchens’ readiness to be a head coach in the NFL.

4. Stabilized power structure

Even at the lowest levels of Pop Warner football there is a hierarchy to follow. The same is true of any company. And there’s a reason for it.

Multiple reports showcased over-the-top arguments and Big Brother-esque colluding when it came to draft picks. There were multiple voices and a lack of agenda.

Haslam repeatedly changed job descriptions in the front office that went beyond constant firings, such as giving the salary cap strategist more involvement in football operations, per Wickersham. The structure lines were forever moving.

And as outlined, he took control of things when he should have let the system run its course. According to the report, the executives in charge of hiring a head coach voted 4-1 in favor of hiring Sean McDermott in 2016. Haslam was the single vote for Jackson.

He flew to Cincinnati and hired him anyway.

As Charles Robinson wrote earlier this month for Yahoo Sports, hiring Kitchens provided “clarity to a muddled power structure inside Cleveland.” It’s something the organization desperately needs.

5. A suggestion: Don’t do this again

One would hope this baffling mistake isn’t made again. Though to be fair, we can’t be sure it won’t.

During the 2015 season, according to the report, marketing executives decided to show employees how fans were engaging the team on social media and set up a feed that displayed on a facility wall. (This despite a clearly upset fan base and public mocking.)

From Wickersham:

It was like broadcasting talk radio over the entire building, and one day in particular, it was worse than that. One of the marketing staffers entered a search for #dp — for Dawg Pound. The problem was, that hashtag carried a few different meanings, one of which triggered an array of porn to be broadcast onto a wall for the entire office to see for more than 20 minutes, until a tech employee killed the feed.
Twitter was admittedly a tad different four years ago, but as any Browns fans on the site today can attest there is no way fans were using that hashtag. It’s an automatic question mark, and a true example of the team’s overall dysfunction, that the marketing team even considered that.

My comment had zero to do with politics.

For years, I've mentioned that the water in Berea should be tested, and I've been only half-joking when I've said it.

Think about how many reputable professionals have come through these halls in the last 20 years. Folks with decent resumes/pedigrees.
They land at 76 Groza, and it's like they all get lobotomies.

It has to be the water.
Because there's no such things as curses. Right?


[cue: 'Twilight Zone' theme music]

Lebron broke the Cleveland curse.

Now Baker and co. will build a dynasty.

Dawg, I hope you're right.

Lord knows the fans have suffered long enough.

Really interesting article... I need to read it again... I agree that's I don't love to hear about the McCarron trade fail.... also totally agree that all that dysfunction feels like it stops with Dorsey and kitchens... if Jimmy takes a step back ad let's his staff do their thing I think we will be heading in the right direction....

I have said for years that the biggest problem with the Browns have been the owners. They have consistently backed the wrong people. With Dorsey I have some hope.

Stay out of the way Haslam.

Meh, one super bowl appearance, or better yet a win, and Haslam will be the owner that turned it all around.

Until it all goes down hill again. See: Gilbert, Dan.

j/c

Coming to this party late, and not wanting to read all the posts.

I got from the article a picture of Haslam as a guy who wants to succeed, and is trying. But the qualities that lead to success in the truck-stop business didn't work in the football business. Yes, he made mistakes, and will probably continue to do so. But he appears to be learning from them, albeit slowly. I think everything he has done has been with the best of intentions.

There have been mentions of Sashi being a bad GM. I will continue to beat the drum I've been beating for 2 years. SASHI WAS NOT THE GM. He was the Executive Vice President of Football Operations. He was emphatic about making the distinction that he was not the GM. His job was not to build a team, his job was to strip the team down to the studs. It was a job no real GM would ever take, it would be professional suicide. But it needed to be done so Sashi did the dirty work and laid the groundwork for the next GM. In that, he did a very good job, probably too good. He built the biggest cap space in the NFL, and stockpiled draft picks so that when the team was ready to hire a GM, the job was attractive, instead of a dumpster fire. People, both here and elsewhere, can't seem to accept that. To them, he filled the role, therefor he was the GM. He said, repeatedly, that he was not the GM.

I would like for Haslam to go be buddies with Aurther Blank, owner of Falcons and Atlanta United.

Because Aurther is a classy owner who knows how to hire the right people and not meddle. But also knows how to talk to the media and fans in an owner role to promote his teams.

They all love him here. He is a really good guy.

So seems Jimmy should go be his buddy. Since Jimmy now owns a MLS Team as well. He needs a mentor and stop fumbling around.

Which would be thanks to too....Jimmy haslam.

He gets credit for being a dumpster fire the last 6 years, but he also gets credit now that we seem to have turned this around.

I'm not the one saying that, Folks on here. Ask them.

It's that for years, all I've heard is that ESPN isn't reliable. Now all of a sudden they are?

Look, anyone that pays any attention knows the Browns have been dysfunctional for years.. You can't lose like we have and not be.

Agreed!

I thought the article confirmed what has been suggested in the past - shed new light on a few items - and was a good read. It's WAYYYYY easier to read all the negative history knowing we have a Franchise QB in the building and having finished the season 5-2 ....

As for Haslam - I hope he gets out of his own way. The road to hell is paved with good intentions - and one half of a good season doesn't mean he can step back and not repeat previous errors. IMO - he does not need to be and should not be involved in anything football related. No involvement in coaching, players, analytics staff or draft. Stay away and let your team carry the load and do what they do. Here's hoping.

Jimmy seems to be so type A and in charge that it's actually hurt this franchise ... too much involvement and overturn obviously

I always find that when the leader is a backstabber and untrustworthy, the people under him must do the same tactics

Insisted on Johnny Manziel to impress his good ole boy friends.

I just don't see Jimmy having his Weekly Poker night with Homeless guys...

You guys aren't asking me, but I'll respond. I mentioned in my lengthy post that I am generally not a fan of ESPN's content. The reason is it tends to lack weight. It's opinion pieces dressed up with questionable "sources". I might be wrong, but this article does not sound or "feel" the same. Yes, it's all anonymous sources, but it jives with the overall story(s) that we've heard about these regimes over the years. It passes the eye test while providing more detail than we've ever seen before. It just "feels" right. Obviously, you are free to debate that.

My only objection is the things that were left out of the story. There are more than a few gaping holes that I was hoping to read about in there. As I said before though, if they included everything to the level of detail shown in this article, they would not be writing an article, but rather a book.

Well of course they are. Every pick from #1 to the seventh round was used to improve talent and in your world they don't count. Well alrighty then.

Actually, the 30 players I was talking about are all on the starting roster. Not ST's and such. We have only a couple of WR's left and one RB left, Duke, from all the skill players from last years roster. Zero QB's, one RB and only a couple of depth WR's. Our secondary underwent an entire rebuild. New OT's and others all across the roster.

So you spin that any way you like. The fact is, from the RB position, to the WR position, to the QB position to the secondary, Dorsey rebuilt this team. And that was in one year. Let's see how many players are left from the Sashi regime when the season starts next year. After all, Rome wasn't built in a day. And all the revisionist history in the word won't change the total transformation Dorsey has brought about in this team.

That I agree with, Dorsey did quite a bit of turnover while also showing restraint. I think we will see more turnover on the front 7 this offseason as he continues to build. I also think the bottom of the roster will get better and in turn ST will as well. Dorsey knows what he's doing. My only question mark is Kitchens and how he adjusts, I like the staff for the most part.

Mostly a rehash here, but the part about Dorsey is interesting.

Jimmy Haslam seems to have learned from his mistakes and other takeaways from the ESPN piece | cleveland.com
https://www.cleveland.com/expo/sports/g6...ncart_big-photo

CLEVELAND, Ohio — The Browns seem to have turned the corner with John Dorsey as head coach, Baker Mayfield as quarterback and Freddie Kitchens as head coach, but their extreme dysfunction in the first six years under owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam continues to make national news.

The Browns have gone 27-84-1 since the Haslams agreed to purchase the Browns in August of 2012, and they've fired four coaches in their seven seasons.

Their tenure has been characterized by four failed regimes, a circus surrounding Johnny Manziel and a disastrous experiment to run the team on almost all analytics and no traditional.

ESPN's Seth Wickersham talked to more than two dozen sources and did a deep dive into the tumultuous rein of the Haslams, and how they got to this point.

Here are some takeaways from the piece:

1. Hue Jackson's tenure was doomed from the start

According to the piece, Haslam ignored the pleas of Sashi Brown and Paul DePodesta not to hire Jackson after the 2015 season.
He reports that after a few rounds of interviews, the Browns' brass voted 4-1 in favor of then-Panthers defensive coordinator and current Bills head coach Sean McDermott, with Haslam being the lone supporter of Jackson.
He said DePodesta emailed Haslam and argued that Jackson didn't fit the profile of the successful coaches they had discussed. Brown met with Haslam and told him hiring Jackson would be a bad call, to which the owner responded, 'I hear you.'

But he flew to Cincinnati and hired Jackson anyway.

Therefore, it was all downhill for Jackson after that shining moment when he was clapped into the Browns' facility by employees on his first day on the job. Brown and DePodesta didn't want him, and the battle was on from the moment he walked upstairs to his office.

To make matters worse, Brown, DePodesta and Jackson all reported to Haslam, who tried to referee the constant battles over personnel and other matters.

The piece illuminated just how much the two power-brokers were against Jackson's hiring, and how the regime never had a chance.

2. Haslam seems to have learned from his mistakes

Haslam, battle-weary from four failed regimes, turned the coaching search over to Browns' GM John Dorsey, and let him work through a late push for the job by Freddie Kitchens.

Vikings offensive coordinator Kevin Stefanski was the unanimous leader in the clubhouse — until Kitchens stated his case as the last of seven candidates interviewed.

Some on the analytics side still liked Stefanski at first, but Dorsey guided the search committee to a consensus on Kitchens, and presented him as the unanimous choice to ownership.

Simultaneously, Haslam gave Dorsey jurisdiction over Kitchens, who reports directly to him — a seismic shift in the team's power structure.

During Kitchens' introductory press conference at FirstEnergy Stadium, Jimmy and Dee Haslam sat in the front row instead of Haslam appearing on the dais with Dorsey and Kitchens. It was Dorsey's hire, and Haslam wanted to stay out of the spotlight himself.

Haslam finally has a qualified GM in place, and he apparently has no qualms about giving him full authority over the football side.

3. Did Dorsey flex his muscles?

Wickersham reported that when Dorsey first got the Browns' GM job in December, he told an associate that he didn't need "f---ing nerds" to help him evaluate players and that he's since warmed up to analytics. He also privately told an associate, according to the piece, that "I flexed my muscles and got what I wanted" in terms of the Kitchens hire and the coach reporting to him.

Those that know Dorsey well doubt he'd use those phrases, especially considering that the new regime is all about collaboration.

4. The Browns could’ve gotten a high 2nd-rounder for Brian Hoyer

Wickersham wrote that Brian Hoyer was furious when the Browns drafted Johnny Manziel in 2014 and that then-GM Ray Farmer called him after the pick to smooth the waters. Shortly thereafter, the Texans called and offered a high second-rounder for Hoyer, but Farmer nixed the deal because he had already lost control of his first draft, taking Justin Gilbert at No. 8 for coach Mike Pettine and Manziel at No. 22 for Haslam.

He also wrote that Haslam invited friends into the war room to witness the theater.

Gilbert and Manziel, of course, were busts, and Hoyer became a free agent after the season, signing a two-year deal with the Texans.

I don't like reading that Dorsey basically strong armed Kitchens into the job. My biggest concern is my lack of belief that Kitchens is the right guy. Dorsey putting his rep on the line here and the goodwill of the fan base. I trust him and hope he's right. Or we'll be doing this again soon

Now you are changing your argument. You said repeatedly, if I'm not mistaken, that the 30 player roster turnover was a result of "no real" players. I just want to make this clear before I continue with my response. This was your take, no?

Also, "ST and such" are on the starting roster. Unless you simply mean starters, then there are only 22, of which roughly half are from the last regime and others starting are a result of added picks by the last regime (Ward & Chubb). I'm not saying Ward or Chubb would have been selected by the last regime but their picks would have included in their own roster turnover regardless. That list of 30 would absolutely include ST and backups.

I agree that Kitchens is pretty much an unknown commodity in regards to being a HC. Actually, a total unknown in that position. But I try to look at things big picture and have my own opinion about him whether that's right or wrong and here's how I arrived at that opinion.

I think it's safe to say that we saw an entirely different performance on the field from our roster the second half of the season. That takes better play and some source of inspiration injected from some source. Accountability and the players buying into what the coaching staff is selling.

John Dorsey has been surrounded by some high quality HC's for much of his career. As such, it's my opinion that he knows the qualities it takes to be a successful HC in the NFL. I believe he knows exactly what to look for and knows it when he sees it.

I've watched Dorsey overhaul a roster and totally rebuild units on this team that have transformed a bottom feeder team into one the NFL is beginning to have respect for. At some point you have to buy in on a guy who's earned it. Dorsey has earned that from me.

I have the faith, based on his experience in this league, that Dorsey knows an NFL HC when he sees one. He watched first hand who made the biggest impact in the Browns turnaround from a coaching staff perspective. That's something none of us had privy to.

So I gotta go with Dorsey's decision and trust that it was the right one. He hasn't let us down so far.

Yep, Dorsey has earned trust...until he hasn't. But if history predicts the future, I think we are going to be fine. I think our strongest unit is our FO right now, Dorsey, Wolf, Highsmith..all well respected and any of them could be leading their own team

To do your work for you, here is what you said (and I'm sure there are other similar posts)

" Dorsey knew the talent level sucked when he got here. He revamped most of the roster. And not with bums but with "real players". He knew Hue couldn't be a winning coach with last years roster and he was right. "
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1579232/2

So, again, this 30 roster turnover number you continuously use to justify the "no real players" narrative. Is this still your argument or are you going to join most sane people and say the reason for the success is drafting a franchise QB, the most important position in all of sports?

The failures of the Browns since 1999 are in direct correlation to the GM's we have had more so than the head coaches.

I don't care what others say.

Outside of the owner the GM is the key guy. You either have talent or you lack talent.

I don't care who the head coach is. If you don't have talent; you can not go far.

A head coach can influence games and can impact the record but without talent there is only so far a team will go.

Dorsey has changed this team. His success is why Haslam has backed off. It is why Haslam let Dorsey hire the head coach.

Without Dorsey the Browns would not be where they are as a team.

Normally at this time of year I would have been studying the draft since Halloween. This year I have not done a thing with the draft. I have faith in Dorsey.

He is going to continue building this team. And a new era is beginning because of it.

I'm going to tell you that a QB alone won't get you where you need to go. I'm saying that with our 2017 secondary and WR's, we wouldn't have won as many games.

You don't believe me? Aaron Rodgers said hi.

That's why it's obvious to me that those insisting otherwise are spouting revisionist history.

Just my opinion - but I think Dorsey HAS revamped the team and I think whatever the numbers are - the only thing - certainly the most important thing - you have to look at is the STARTERS.

Turning over the 2nd and 3rd team players isn't significant for a team with such a bad team/roster/history ... it's all down to the starters. . . . Also - you quoted the number of rookies drafted as if they were all guaranteed to make the roster - but that does not usually happen even on bad teams like we have had, not many of the 6th and 7th rounders make the roster.

Audio session with the writer, for those interested.

Can the Browns win with Jimmy Haslam? ESPN’s Seth Wickersham joins Takes By The Lake
https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/01...y-the-lake.html

I could care less what this guy thinks ... GO BROWNS

I agree, bonefish. This is old and done and long gone. Piling on and snickering was a lifestyle. And we wrote about and amped up all kinds of cheap shots at the Browns like it is clever or wit. And we neglected a lot of stories that could have been positive about a team struggling to do anything right. Crappy journalism and shabby treatment should be showcased for what they are.

We have exciting stuff, positives, playing for the Browns. Life after JFF, Gordon, and the ilk like them.


Go, Browns. Shut the hacks up.

This is the opposite of shabby journalism. This article was written and researched over a period of several months. It has sources both named and unnamed. The author is highly credible.

I didn't read it..don't want to..I hear enough talk about it. Most Corporate..Chain stores..to the family business all have this going on.

I see this everyday at work from Corporate to upper management to the supervisor who loves themselves from the suck ups who want to be a somebody..



Absolutely I have a real good feel good going on right now and no ESPN article is going to bring it down.. Talk about trying to slap the face of a fan having fun and enjoying the feel of an actual turn around..

Kitchens..his staff and the players on this team looking to put together a winning season for us fans to enjoy and cheer for is all I care about..

I'm getting excited for the next few months...

I don’t think the point of the article is to remind people of failures or temper optimism.

I think the point of the article is to illustrate Haslam’s management style since buying the Browns. And, as far as I’m concerned, the article does a credible job of establishing a worrisome pattern of behavior. Haslam appears to be a free-talking, obsessive micromanager by nature. That doesn’t just explain our problems in the past, though. It also portends to problems in the future.

Now, the obvious caveat is whether Haslam has reprogrammed himself to better control his worst impulses. There’s certainly evidence that’s been the case since hiring Dorsey and Kitchens. But it’s important to consider that the second-half of the 2018 season and the first month of 2019 have been the easiest of his tenure. So, the question remains: When this regime hits a rough patch – and it will happen – will Haslam seize back control, or will he continue his more recent, laissez-faire approach to football operations?

I’m with U, bone and Mourg ... WHO CARES ... i can’t remember the last time I’ve been looking forward to FREE AGENCY in a positive way .... usually I’m wondering what DUMB BUTT moves were gonna be making this time ... ican’t wait to see how DORSEY SUPRISES ME in with god forbid bringing in MORE TALENT like VICE GRIPS, RANDALLS, and MITCHELLS and PERRIMAN’S and HUBBARD’S and ROBINSON’S and Gaines, and Carrie’s ...

I CAN’T WAIT ... just like this season .... THIS IS DIFFERENT in so many ways .... this is now DORSEYS SHIP TO RUN ... the Thief wasn’t even at the table at the presser .. hes learned his place .. he hired a COMPETANT GM and that GM earned his trust and now the thief is where he should be ... still way to involved .. but he’s TAKEN A BACK SEAT ... he’s a thief not a moron ... ....

We have an entire Org. ROWING IN THE SAME DIRECTION ... we have COLLABORATORS not SEPERATISTS ... we have a PROFFESIONAL FO not TEXTING SCHMUCKS or HARVARD OHIO ... we have a HC that GETS IT ... he hires people and gives them the freedom to do there jobs and whose only requirement seems to be to UTILIZE THE TALENT OF THOSE AROUND U and make it a team effort ...

EVERYTHNG about this has been DIFFERENT!!! ... who the heck cares about the INEPTNESS of the PAST .... i’m Gonna ENJOY TODAY as opposed to worry about why were here ... ENJOY THIS PROCESS .... or NOT ... your choice ... i’ve MADE MINE ...

The past is actually pretty easy .. the thief went from the WORST OWNER in the history of sports to the LUCKIEST OWNER in the history of sports .... his hire of Sashi was so bad he was FORCED TO FIRE HIM and sitting there for the taking somehow is KING JOHN ... TY Andy ... u rock buddy ... .... whats that saying ... ones man trash is another mans treasure ... we FINALLY FOUND OUR TREASURE and were all ready OFF THE TRASH HEAP ...

I’ve always said I’d rather be lucky than good ... well the the thief got lucky and were benefiting from it NOW ... ENJOY THE NOW DAWGS ....

Get on board .. the ENTIRE ORG. Is now rowing in one direction ... there rowing from the ISLE OF OPTIMISM to the new destination .... PARADISE ISLAND ... hop in and start rowing ... as our 2nd in charge COLLABORIST says “If your not wearing orange nd brown you don’t count “ ...

LETS GOOOOOoooooooooo ... GOOD TIMES AHEAD DAWGS .... LETS ENJOY THE RIDE ...

Great. That's a very different take to the 30 roster turnover argument you've been pushing.

j/c


Coming here sometimes is frustrating.

This is a great article and I'm waiting on that book to come out.

A lot of things that were said in the article have been out there and known for a while. Many here still refuse to acknowledge the truth. For instance Farmer's draft with Gilbert and Manziel. Someone commented about Farmer's incompetence because he didn't interview Gilbert or Johnny. I think this article makes it clear that he didn't want either of them.

Memphis pointed some players Farmer "found." Also, don't forget that he also brought us Gabriel and Crowell among others. I think Farmer has a keen eye for talent. I think he doomed himself by texting the field during a game and that's why he hasn't gotten another opportunity.

If I'm an owner in need of a rebuild, the Giants would be a good one, I'd be calling Sashi to help rebuild my team. He did a marvelous job. And he wasn't a GM. It's obvious we fired the wrong person when we fired Sashi. Sashi thanked his boss for the opportunity while Hue told him to get the heck out of his office.

And, ah, yes, the revisionists are out I see. Dorsey didn't "rebuild the roster" as many are quick to try and point out. Over half our starters on offense and defense were acquired before he came along. Dorsey continued the original plan set forth during Sashi's term. Is that any more clear than the fact many in the front office are still here.

I think Dorsey came into this job thinking he would have a lot more to do than he actually did. He said some things and then realized how good things were, and went back on some of the things he said. He had to know then Hue was the problem.

I also get the "I'm tired of talking about this" crowd. I think if you are one who acknowledges the good times you can't ignore the bad. It's part of our history and it cannot be ignored like it or not. Our history fascinates me and I enjoy discussing it. If some don't, no need to tell others to stop talking about it, there are other topics here to discuss.

I disagree. We've had terrible HC (or at minimum not prepared) in the form of Crennel, Mangini, Shurmur, Pettine, Chudzinski, and the great Hue Jackson. I mean this list alone is absolutely disgusting. Now the main issue for all of the GM of the past was not being able to find a franchise QB, but talent was able to be acquired with many past GMs. The issue has been for both coaches and GMs, the constant turnover and restarting of plans based on what they wanted to accomplish and the discord usually between the two roles.



I agree to a degree. Dorsey has gone a great job selecting players for this team, particularly where it comes to the draft. He has made some great decisions in that regard. Taking Mayfield when most people didn't like him and lazily compared him to Manziel, choosing Ward over Bradley Chubb (although perhaps the jury is still out on this one as both played well and Ward had 2 concussions on one season), and taking Nick Chubb as he has become one of the best RBs in the draft. However, Dorsey would not have been in his draft position unless it was from the decisions of the last regime. Without those moves, here is the Dorsey draft:

Rd 1- Baker Mayfield
Rd 2. Austin Corbett
Rd 3- (Traded for Tyrod Taylor)
Rd 4- (Traded w/ another pick from the last regime for Damarious Randall)
Rd 5- Genard Avery
Rd 6- Damion Ratley
Rd 7- ( I believe was used in a trade to get a late round pick this draft)

(I might very well be mixing picks up as was looking at all the deals made online)

You don't have Jarvis Landry (for all of the Landry truthers), Ward, Chubb, Calloway, Thomas, etc. They aren't on the team. But maybe if the situation was different and we didn't have the voluminous amount of picks that we did at the time, perhaps trades for Landry, Taylor, or Randall might not have happened due to scarcer draft resources. Now, with all that said, I think a legitimate argument could be made that the above draft can be considered a wild success if ONLY due to the fact that we're pretty sure we got our franchise QB. Something that all drafts have missed on in Cleveland since 1999. That, in itself, should warrant it a success.

My point is, this draft was set up beautifully for anyone that was going to run it. But, of course, the GM needed to hit on the picks. And so far, I think we can all agree that Dorsey hit on more picks than not and did a great job. But make no mistake, Dorsey got help in order to make the 2018 draft successful. There is zero doubt about that in my mind.

You really have to twist the argument to make your case. I think that's not a very solid place to have to debate from.

You think we've had good GM's?

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/draft.htm

The drafts and the players our GM's have selected says otherwise.

Picks in rounds 1-3 that jump out: Courtney Brown, Rahim Abdullah. Marquis Smith, Travis Prentice, JuJuan Dawson, Qunicy Morgan, James Jackson, (Gerard Warren #3 overall), Melvin Fowler, Chaun Thompson, Chris Crocker, Charlie Frye, Travis Wilson, Robiskie, Massaquoi, David Veikune, Hardesty, McCoy, Luavao, Phil Taylor Greg Little, Trent Richardson (another #3) Brandon Weedon, Mingo, McFadden, Justin Gilbert, Manziel, Danny Shelton as a #12, Cam Erving as a #19, Nate Orchard, Corey Coleman at #8 ......

Unscientifically it looks like we're getting "ok" players about 1 in 3 of those 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks. We got great players in the 1st round THREE timees in 19 years.

That is awful drafting. And it doesn't even include the beyond woeful free agents we brought to the team and paid top dollar for.

If you don't think the GM and the drafting and acquisition of talent was a big part of the problem.... I disagree strongly!

Diam...something that is rarely said when talking about the Browns...HOW LUCKY COULD THE BROWNS GET?

John Dorsey, fired by the Chiefs in June of 2017, sat on the trash heep for 5 month before the Browns made him an offer he would not refuse. The Browns were "so lucky" that another team did not swoop in hire Dorsey in an advisory role.

In the 13 months since Dorsey was hired, our Browns have seen such a turn around that few saw coming...call it LUCK or WHATEVER...WE WILL TAKE IT !!!

The Browns came to a fork in the road..and they went the right direction.

For the first time in a long, long time, I'm optimistic about the Browns future and doing my best to enjoy the ride.

GO BROWNS

I will give Farmer a pass on Gilbert and Manziel as they were clearly Pettine and Haslam picks - tools, but keen eye for talent - not in my eyes.

Bitonio, Kirksey, and Duke were the only good picks he made in 2 drafts. Not trading Hoyer for a 2nd rounder - hmmmm.

Shelton and Erving in the 1st round in 2016 - awful.

Bottom line is this: If we had been better in 2016 and 2017, we probably would not have 2 cornerstones in Myles and Baker. If we hadn't made the somewhat innovative move of taking on Osweiller's contract, we wouldn't have Chubb. If we hadn't traded down with the Texans, (and got really lucky when their season tanked after Watson got hurt) we wouldn't have Ward.

There are a lot of bad things over the past few years that led to some pretty good things. You are right in that we had some pieces in place. The problem for Sashi Brown is that none of those pieces included a QB, CB, or even RB .... and only 1 WR.

However, he did assemble a nice interior of the OL. He did add Myles, Schobert, and Larry Ogunjobi. He did give us potential longer term pieces in Peppers, Kindred, Ogbah, Njoku, Boddy-Calhoun, and DeValve. None of these are slam dunks though .... but they could each be part of the future.

Sashi was a step in the process. Unfortunately, his 1st draft was not very good. Corey Coleman, Shon Coleman, Carl Nassib, Cody Kessler ..... add in Ogbah, and this (not in order) was the 1st 3 rounds of his 1st draft. (1 1st, 1 2nd, and 3 3rds) Because of this, his reign will be remembered as far below average. Accumulating draft picks is all well and good, but you have you hit on high picks. Unfortunately for Sashi, given the number of picks he manages to accumulate, there is little to show for his efforts.

How am I twistng an argument by saying I think our GMs have been better than our coaches. It's a flat out opinion.

And wait...why are you leaving out Mitchell Schwartz, Joe Thomas, Kameron Wimbley, D'Qwell Jackson, Eric Wright, Travis Benjamin, Jabaal Sheard, Joe Haden, TJ Ward, Myles Garrett, Jabrill Peppers, Emmanuel Ogbah, David Njoku, Christian Kirksey, Joel Bitonio, Duke Johnson?

What about mid-to-late round steals....I would think that should be included.

Cam Erving is on your list?? The guy that just got an extension and starts for the Chiefs? That Cam Irving?

Speaking of twisting an argument.

Don't get me wrong, there have absolutely been bad GM decisions for Cleveland and bad GM (namely, Mangini in the dual role and Banner at the top of the list)... But, *** psst, come closer*** whispers "They all have bad picks. All GMs, for all teams, in the history of GM-itude".

I submit that our talent over the years has been snuffed out by bad coaching and not having a franchise QB (which I concede, falls on GM). Look no further than this year as a case study.

Sashi did allow Schwartz, Gipson, and Benjamin to all leave ..... who could have each been re-signed. Mack also left, but I think he was gone no matter what.

As far as Cam Erving ..... sometimes a guy has to lose his job to understand how hard he has to work when someone else brings him in. Sometimes he just needs a different system. He was awful here, no matter where he played.

Look at Robinson for us this year. He was an absolute bust, who had most of us wondering why we brought him in, and why he made the final roster coming out of camp.

Heck, Desir was an effective starter in Indy .... but flopped here. Sometimes it just takes a guy a few extra years for the light to come all the way on.

Letting Schwartz walk was a big mistake by Sashi. I think most would say that. I agree with you about Mack...he had one foot out of the door when he signed that oddly structured contract with JAX. For me, although I referenced Benjamin as a good 3rd round pick in the post, I would not have paid him what SD did. Same goes for Gipson. Both guys aren't living up to their salaries. They were great value, 3rd rounder and UDFA, however.

I think this encapsulates a huge issue for GMs in Cleveland....either not taking the reigns of a draft, giving your HC too much of a voice/influence in the draft, or three, having an owner or CEO trump a GM.

Do you want to count just the first rounders that have been trash?

Repeat first rounders. The top 32 players in all of college.

How about second rounders? Go back over the drafts since 1999. Take a look and see how long there NFL careers lasted.

You don't get the records that the Browns have had just from head coaches.

Set up? He still had to make the selections. Or traded out or up.

Hypothetical BS. You are making things up. The players on the team where the result of Dorsey. Period.

Only selecting the QB?? Like that has been a easy task by the past GM's. Ward, Avery, Chubb. How about drafting Sequan, Allen or Rosen?

The number of draft picks, free agents and trades that have worked out favorable for the Browns since 1999 and before have been abysmal by comparison to teams that have been successful.

That was the draft Farmer needed to seize control of his job and his future as Browns' GM. He needed to stand up in that draft room and say "No ... NO ... HELL NO!" to both those picks. As new GM and a recent hire, he held more capital than he would ever have again. Jimmy wasn't going to fire a GM he had just hired weeks before. Consensus is highly overrated because, as the saying goes, none of us is as dumb as all of us. Leadership means sometimes you have to go against the grain. At the worst, even if Jimmy had fired him right then, it was a hill worth dying on, because it ended up killing him anyway.

Yes, he did still have to make the decisions, which is where I gave him high praise. Please re-read the post if you missed that part.



What am I making up? Would Dorsey have been in the position to draft Ward, Chubb, Calloway if not for the picks accrued by the last regime? They used picks accrued by the last regime to trade for Randall, Taylor and Landry. This is correct, no? If I said something in error and got those picks wrong, I'm happy to retract it. I think I gave that disclaimer in the post you are responding to.

Agreed.

My take on you stacking the argument is that you were sort of focusing on the QB... Again - looking at the starting roster and the changes Dorsey made in 1 year - he did a remarkable job.

As for the draft picks and my list not including the good players? . . . My list was a pick of the bad / woeful players. I stated we had about 2/3 of the picks that were bad - meaning about 1/3 are ok-to good. I said we had 3 great picks.

In 19 drafts - 3 rounds - 57 players ... a blind monkey flinging poo at a draft board would have hit as many good picks as we had.

Sure we have had bad coaching and none worse than Hue ... but GM has been an equally bad situation for most of our history since 1999.

That makes no difference. How we got to have the picks were the results of previous failures.

Picks accrued? You get the first pick by losing every game.

If we were picking in the last ten slots we would not be discussing this.

What you are making up is: if this didn't happen then this would not be.

There is only what is.

There really is not much to discuss. The GM is responsible for all personnel decisions. He makes up the roster.

At least that is the way it is suppose to work. We have had all kinds of speculation on who made what decisions.

We have not had a roster since 1999 that deserved to win a damn thing.

That is fact. I don't care who was head coach.

The Haslams didn't know what they didn't know. The best thing they could have learned from all the turmoil is to pick the right people and step away. Now all Dorsey & Freddie have to do is continue to add talent and win. Then none of the rest of it matters except in retrospect as being the pathway to success.

Right. I think they have grown in to the role. It's taken a lot of owners time to get it right.

They are still going to put their thumbprint on things from time to time but seem to have found trust in Dorsey.

Not merely trust but the success they've been seeking. In a single year Dorsey revamped the roster, the coaching staff, found the franchise QB, won more games than the past three years combined, an narrowly missed the playoffs. At this point, the Haslams dare not meddle too much lest they blow the flow. Dee probably realizes that while Jimmie is likely forced to accept it. Dorsey has the power now by virtue of the fact the Browns are trending upward. IMO, next year needs be an improvement over this year to reinforce in their minds they got it right. What the organization needs, now that they have leadership in place, a talented roster, and a franchise QB, is stability and consistency.

JMHO

J/C

I’ve skimmed a lot of the posts, so maybe someone pointed this out before, but one question I have is this: How do we know that Hue said, “Get the f...out of my office” if it was only Hue, Dorsey, and Halsam in said office? This is not a defense of Hue or anything other than how does the author get this quote if not from one of the three. Now if one of them related this quote to the author then I just missed it. It’s more of a curiosity than any point I’m trying to make.

I was about to throw in that Hue should count as 6 bad coaches, but then the more I thought about it, ownership has hurt the Browns more than anything.

Al got dealt a pretty crappy hand initially but I think he would have got it right with enough time. Randy's heart and mind really wasn't in it and Jimmy is a poor excuse for an Al Davis or a Jerry Jones

It's ownership that killed us more than anything. Now it looks like the current staff is all on the same page despite the owner and will win despite the owner.

Just thinking out loud.

If a player does not pan out but goes elsewhere and starts for that team is that a poor pick by the original GM or poor development on the part of the coaching staff?

This is just from my memory, so take it with a grain of salt and feel free to correct me if you know any of this to not be true.

I always thought that the NFL gave the Browns a raw deal by making a late decision on ownership. We had a very short window to hire a front office and coaching staff and as a consequence very little time to prepare for the expansion draft and the college draft.

Then I read somewhere that the NFL wanted us to start playing in 2000 but that Lerner was insistent that we start playing in 99'

Good question.

Hue?

"Isn't it Ironic, don't you think?" -Alanis Morissette

I don't think teams can acquire additional picks by being bad. As far as I know, anyway.

Your trying to have a rational discussion with posters that believe Sashi was an outstanding talent evaluator and whose only obstacle from being in Canton was the HC he was hamstrung with ... it was ALL HUE’S FAULT ...

Think about that before u continue engaging with Memp and Device ...

I’ve seen Memph say that all King John really did was get us a qb ... cause its so easy .. ... especially when he is pimping a talent evaluator that passed on Wentz, Mahommes and Watson not once but twice ... KEEN EYE for QB’s that one has ... expecially when u factor in he set the table in year one with RG3 (who technically rode the pines for the last year or was it two) McCown and Cody ... then he followed that up in year two with Kizer, Cody and Hogan .. what a DREAM TRIO ...

And i’m Sure device and Memph will be more than happy to tell us WHY BAKE WOULD HAVE BEEN A SHOE IN for Mr. Keen Eye for talent Sashi ... i’m Sure they’ll be happy to tell us it was a NO BRAINER ...

I mean look at his draft picks .... STELLAR ...

- C. Coleman ... WOW .... if we didnt all ready know what a keen eye for talent Sashi had this one just knocks it out of the park ... WHAT A GREAT START ... ...

- S. Coleman .. he’s so good I’m pretty sure he didn’t play a down in SF this year .. i’m Sure his talent hasn’t quite reached the surface just yet .. *LOL* ...

Then theres Ricardo Louis, Jordan Payton (he appears to have a keen eye for WR’s also ... ) .. Spencer Drango, Trey Caldwell and Scooby Wright ... there all STUDS in there ma’s eyes ...

The 2nd draft class is highlighted by that keen eye for QB’s .. i mean moving up to take Kizer was SHEER GENIUS ... we were so lucky to have the Shaster ... to bad he was shackled with Hue .. it was all HUE ... HOW COULDN’T HUE WIN WITH THAT QB ROOM ... WOW ... talk about sucktitude ... incredible he couldnt win with that group ...

And Jamie Collins .. what an ANALYTICAL DREAM ... talkabout an OVER ACHEIVER ... 100% all out HUSTLE on every play .. just an ANALYTICS DREAM ... oh wait ... ... he couldnt even get that right ...

And my favorite .. device saying King John didnt overhaul the roster cause over 1/2 the starters were on the team when King John took over .... guess I shouldn’t be shocked coming from a poster that thinks Sashi IS DA MAN ... guess he doesn’t undertand the roster RUNS MUCH DEEPER than the 22 starters on O and D and gone 53 deep ... MATH IS NOT HIS FRIEND ... *LOL* ...

All King John did was bring in Randall, Ward and Mitchell for the secondary .. BUT Gaines and Carrie don’t count according to device cause they didnt start ... ...

Avery don’t count either ... i wonder if Chubb counts on O ... ...

There was VICE GRIPS, Robinson, Hubbard, Chubb and Bake on O .. does Calloway count? .. we know Perriman don’t cause he didnt start either ... ...

Come on bone ... your out of your mind .. it’s clear just HOW GREAT SASHI was ... we just missed it ... just ask Memph or Device .. they “get it” ...

Yeesh. C'mon dude.

I didn't say half the stuff you claim I did. Please don't put words in my mouth.

You've already said this topic isn't for you and it shows.

I wasn't even the one to bring Sashi into this thread, but I was just the one correcting those who erroneously blamed Sashi for all the losing and a 1-31 record.

Also, regardless of who is GM, we still would have had the first pick in the 2018 draft. And believe it or not, if we happened to win a few games and didn't have the first pick in the draft we did have the assets to trade up and get the QB we wanted. We didn't gain those assets by losing, which was the claim. That was the point. I couldn't care less which QB Sashi would have picked because it doesn't matter, the point is we had the fire power to get the QB we coveted because of Sashi's moves.

Those who wish to believe or quick to say we would have passed on 4-5 QBs with 2 of the first 4 picks because that's what Sashi was about is just agenda driven and plain wrong.

I'm also not as naive to believe that swapping out back-up DBs is the reason why we are finally winning. I suppose the swapping of Carl Nassib for Anthony Zettel is the reason we are now a winner, right?

If you want to continue to defend Hue, you just don't get it.

If you want to continue to say it doesn't matter who the HC was, you just don't get it.

In my opinion releasing Nassib was no different than not resigning Benjamin or Gipson. But where are those blaming King John for releasing Nassib? Double standard much? Please. You guys need a new agenda. You failed on this one.

I stopped here. Shame on you for making stuff up. We already have enough posters doing that.

You're smarter than I. He trolled me right into that one.

FACTS DON’T HAVE FEELINGS ... sorry if u don’t like the FACTS ...

You run around IGNORING FACTS like King John has RE-BUILT THE ROSTER ...

U wanna boil it down to the 22 starters and get a chafed butt when u get called out on it with FACTS ...

Memph boils it down to getting a QB .... ... like thats easy and Bake was a no brainer ... then his butt gets all sore when someone has the audacity to post some facts about Sashi’s keen eye for QB talent ..

Sorry ... thiis isn’t a one way street ... FACTS are FACTS ... sorry if they don’t align with your unrealistic version of reality ....

U give Sashi credit for re-building this team ... ... HUGE DIFFERENCE between setting us up to re-build and actually re-building ... a difference you seem to be having a real hard time making ...

Things worked out well ... u guys can wallow in this crap all u want ... i’m Done with it .. gonna focus on the fun .... like what’s KING JOHN GONNA DO NEXT ...

C ya ....

More nonsense.

Like I said, there was a mess

There is an old saying in business, hire slow, fire fast.

I'm not defending haslam here, no question, his inability to hire right has caused most of these issues, but he hasn't sat pat. He's worked at it and failed a few times. Could it be that he's finally hit on Dorsey?

Thus far I've been unable to see much in the way of mistakes by Dorsey. Maybe agreeing to keep Hue Jackson and the hiring of Todd Haley.. That would be considered mistakes in Hindsight, but at least Haley has had great success elsewhere.

Anyway, what was was, what is is. Right now, things are looking pretty darn nice.

As a fan, I was having a ball watching this team last season.

I'd like to enjoy it..

Sashi Brown was not qualified to hold the position that Haslam hired him for.

...THAT is another example of how poor Haslam's judgement has been as the Browns owner.

Why would an owner hire someone who was not qualified?

In Haslam's case, he saw himself as Sashi's right hand man. Sashi's hire allowed Haslam the opportunity to play owner/gm..like a Jerry Jones.

It took a historic losing record to convince Haslam he has no business being so involved in the football operations of his franchise.

I hope Haslam learned his lesson...

Thank you for posting my comment. So where did I say getting Baker was a no-brainer and getting a QB was the only reason we are successful? I literally reference talent already on the roster.

Try again.

I don't make the news. I just report it. The roster turnover is exactly as I said it is. By next season, I doubt we'll have over 10 players left from when Dorsey took over. I guess some will be arguing that those ten players mean the roster hasn't been totally re-vamped.

You are changing your argument again. I'll ask again.... is the fact that there was a 30 person roster turnover because there were "no real players" and the reason for success?

Well if you would stop doing that there would be one less.

Yes.

Those numbers are nice and all, but what do they mean?

Ideally we would calculate those numbers for every other team in the NFL. But that would be a lot of work . I'd suggest using the Rams and Pats for comparison as they are playing in this years super bowl. How much turnover did they have in their rosters from last year? If we want to use this data as an indictment of Sashi, how many players that Sashi acquired are still on the team as compared to the number of players on those teams from those same years?

I don't know the answer but we need more data to put those numbers into context.

I don't really try to use it as an indictment of Sashi. I think Sashi's job was to tear this team down. And he did a great job of that. And I'm sure that we weren't the only team that needed rebuilt from the bottom up.

Point being, almost every skill player position was changed, the OT's were both replaced. The entire QB room was replaced, one RB left, What four WR's changed including our #1 and #2? The entire secondary was rebuilt. I could go on. But when you change almost every skill player on your roster, your secondary and OT's, you rebuilt your team.

But see, almost anyone can gut a team and trade down in the draft. While I guess you can call that some major skill set, I don't believe anyone who wishes to be taken seriously can assert that a person who can do that has the skills you need to build a team.

Sashi did what he came here to do. Blow things up.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

You get high picks in the draft from being a bad team. If you trade those high picks for more picks it is still the result of previous failures.

The Browns have been a bad team because they consistently failed in the draft and in overall personnel decisions.

This is not matter of despute.

Seriously shaking my head here.

No one is disputing the new faces on the roster from 2017 to 2018. But its completely irresponsible to tie the roster turnover to our recent success. If anyone truly believes that, you simply are not paying attention.

I have no idea what logic you are applying?

So by what you are saying the roster from 2017 could have achieved the same record in 2018 by only changing the coaching staff??

What?

Pit - didn't mean to imply you were using these numbers as an indictment of Sashi, meant it to the board in general.

I agree with you that Sashi did what he was hired to go.

If Diam can't refute the words coming out of your mouth, he just throws some new ones in there, adds an emoji and caps lock party and says he won.

Yeah - I am scratching my head on that one. Better RB, better WR core, better QB, better CB and safeties .... and they weren't the reason for success??

I'll give you Hue was worse than I ever imagined and other coaches would have won more games than Hue did .... but the roster had an equal impact on the ability to win more games once Hue was jettisoned.

Yes.

I can see where the confusion rests. My point is that the roster turnover wasn't the ONLY reason for success as many want you to believe. I tend to type slower than my brain.

Also, the argument isn't that Dorsey didn't acquire talented players, but rather that he couldn't have built what we've become without the assets acquired before Dorsey.

Those who downplay the importance of good coaching and a franchise quarterback haven't been paying attention to the browns (or the NFL) the past 20 years.

Just a quick list of players Brown drafted or acquired who are contributors for the current team;

Garrett
Ogunjobi
Ogbah
Schobert
Collins
Peppers
Kindred
BBC
Njoku
Tretter
Zeitler
Colquitt

Who am I missing?

I don’t know the answer to this:

Should players used with picks acquired by Sashi Brown be credited towards him?

I would say no. In my estimation, Sashi's job was to make the Brown's GM position attractive enough to draw a top notch candidate. In Jan 2016, when Farmer was fired, the Cleveland GM job was probably the least attractive GM position in the NFL. The top candidates weren't going to be interested. If the Browns hired a GM at that time, it would have been someone with no experience or someone who had failed somewhere else. The John Dorsey's of the NFL were not going to take the job. Sashi's turned the job from the least attractive to the most attractive. A large part of that attraction was the 5 draft picks in the first 65. So, the picks were part of the what brought Dorsey to Cleveland.

I will not dispute this, however the one thing that many continue to ignore is that the talent evaluators under Sashi who most likely were the driving force in the picks selected are still here under Dorsey.

I keep reading how Sashi wasn't qualified for the position he held. Sashi wasn't the GM. We didn't have a GM.

I recall when we drafted Corey Coleman, many were upset we didn't draft Treadwell... where is Treadwell today? The Ravens drafted Perriman in the first round. Sometimes picks don't work out. Coleman was the top rated WR by many... Treadwell, Fuller, Doctson were the other first rd WR that year I believe. We fail if we had taken any of those.

I believe our front office realized you don't hit on every pick which is why they acquired more picks to build their roster from... Teams that believe they can "win" the draft don't fair well.

Isn't it funny that Perriman man have a second bite of the apple here. But I don't think Coleman will catch on with any team.

Credited to Sashi? No, at least IMO. Sashi wasn't the one who picked them. Dorsey did. But Sashi allowed Dorsey to be in the fantastic draft position he was in with 2 picks in the top 5, two second rounders, and 3 third rounders. Without those extra picks, I showed what Dorsey's draft would have been like as well as what picks he traded for players.

If this is what you took away from his post, I feel bad for you.

I think the argument is how big of a difference a franchise QB elevates your team and amplifies pieces already established. For example, how different was the team with Baker Mayfield than Tyrod Taylor? With the same roster. And even with the same coaches for a few additional weeks. It was night and day. If you can't see how big a different a QB makes (not the only difference, but a huge one), then well....I'm sorry.

Coleman is with the Giants currently.

I would agree. And I see your point on Tyrod. Imagine if we had that pick for another player who could contribute instead of having to trade for Tyrod who last 2 and a half games. I doubt he stays knowing he's the backup. I still don't have issues with the trade because the QB position is so important, but I understand your point.

I wonder how much the Browns draft team relied on 'analytics' in their first draft?

Just a guess, but the Browns draft team might have relied on Cory Coleman's "track skills" a bit too much, rather than his football skills.
.....note to analytics gurus..track is not football.

Every time I hear Cory Coleman's name, I think about Michael Thomas and what might have been, had our draft team valued Thomas' skill set a bit more than their analytics.

One could argue we still draft Mayfield at #1, but the rest is a crapshoot. However, one must wonder how much influence the people Sashi put in place had on Dorsey's selections.

Also, important to point out during this rebuilding process is that you can acquire additional compensatory picks by not signing free agents if your players leave in free agency. Obviously, there's more to it than just that, but this undoubtedly played a role in signing many free agents in the first two seasons under Sashi.

Ironically enough, the Patriots and Rams both look to receive a couple 3rd rd compensatory picks and both are in the Super Bowl. As much as people want us to sign free agents, it's not always the best angle to take.

We are, however, in win now mode, so I expect us to be players in free agency.

I think analytics played a large role in drafting Corey Coleman. Reading thru and listening to what we said about him right after selecting him, he sounded great and was highly regarded by many around the NFL. However, like Johnny, it would appear he found things off the field more intriguing than playing football.

Im sure the teams that drafted Fuller, Treadwell, and Doctson over Thomas wonder how that happened and what if. In fact, most of the teams in the NFL passed on Thomas. So it's not like this was an issue only with the Browns.

Don't feel anything for me.

Read what he wrote.

Where was anything mentioned about the impact of the quarterback?
===============================================

"But its completely irresponsible to tie the roster turnover to our recent success. If anyone truly believes that, you simply are not paying attention."

Well that's a surprise to me.. But good for him

Seeing as Hue is not camera shy, or afraid to leak info to the media - I just assumed that tidbit came from him.

I wondered the same, but I have to think Hue wouldn't leak that he told his boss/owner to get the F@*% out of his office. That's not a good look and I don't think master manipulator Hue would be that dumb. But who knows....

Upon being fired, if you said that, then he actually didn't have an office anymore LOL

I think it's safe to say that analytics "failed" in the draft analysis of Coleman.

Doing a quick check, not all who judged that draft missed on Coleman. NFL.com had Coleman as a 1 or 2nd round pick and ranked Coleman as one of the top "boom-bust" prospects of the draft.

BOTTOM LINE...analytics in the hands of the Browns draft team did not prove to be an advantage for this franchise. Haslam was easily fooled thinking there was some kind of a shortcut to success.

There are no shortcuts...only hard work and dedication by those willing to put in the time and effort to turn this franchise around.

Another draft like last year will certainly help!

It does not surprise me, him being a very recent 1st round pick with some nice speed. Like us with Perriman, I am sure he was a low risk acquisition by the Giants. He certainly has bounce around some. Perriman has shown that he can catch the ball and has (IMO) earned a new contract. Time will tell if Coleman can do the same, or if he has one or two more bounces before he finds a job that does not require hands.

Probably a secondary source. John Dorsey or Jimmy Haslam related the story and then that person tells Wickersham. Or it’s just Haslam or Dorsey.

So you're saying if former GM's and coaches hadn't sucked so bad at what they did, Dorsey wouldn't have had as much ammunition to put together a respectable roster? If that's what you're saying I agree.

Yeah, he had a hopping 5 receptions for 71 yards an 0 td's.

Perriman? He was 16 catches for 340 yards and 2 TDs. Not saying he had Pro Bowl numbers, but I think he is worth a contract.

Edit. Oh, nevermind. You were talking Coleman.

I agree in the case of Coleman that analytics "failed."

However, I don't think of analytics as a "shortcut." It's simply another method to evaluate players. I don't think the overall method is a failure. In fact, we still very much use analytics in our player evaluations with Dorsey on board. If analytics was the driving force in picking Mayfield over Darnold or Rosen or Allen, I'd say it worked.


If anything, I'd say Corey Coleman proves there's no clear cut sure fire way to evaluate players. There's going to failures no matter what system you use.

Dorsey seems to have warmed up to analytics. Likely taking an approach of find the best football player with good analytics and he's your guy. Hoping to cut down a bit on the chance of failure through the use of analytics. Probably a decent approach, at least from a starting point.

Sure. If you want to continue your crusade go with that...

Again, you don't gain additional picks for being awful. The roster wasn't the greatest, but it also wasn't as bad as 0-16 and 1-15. 4-5 both years was quite possible... Coaching was far worse than the front office.

I'm still shocked the amount of people who wish to defend Hue even after seeing an interim coach win more games in half a season than Hue did in 2.5, but whatever...

This is what I took it to be from the beginning.

I noticed inn one of the article quotes at the beginning of the thread that said something to the effect that DePo said Hue didn't fit what they were trying to do. I'm curious if that determination was from a philosophical standpoint only, or if their analytical system also includes a psychology component?

Hue and the roster being putrid are two separate issues. It seems you're suggesting that winning for or five games puts those rosters on equal footing with the roster we have.

If you can't see that replacing all but a few skill players, both OT's, RB's, a total remake of the secondary and WR position wasn't necessary to help turn things around, you can't be helped.

You get additional picks when you trade down from high picks.

Or from trades.

You can speculate about wins that doesn't make it so.

Again front office and coaching go hand in hand. Front office or owner select the head coach. They work together to make personnel decisions.

If you don't build roster talent. You don't win games regardless of the coaching staff.

Joe Thomas had a better year than either of our LTs I'd say.
Crow had a better year than Hyde.
Jason McCourty had a better year than any of our CBs.

Our defense was actually worse this year than last year.

If you think Tyrod goes 7-8-1 with this team, you can't be helped.

Yes, a total roster turnover and you do nothing but stick your fingers in your ear going la, la, la, la.

Not sure what all the pontificating is over. What you just said here is pretty accurate as far as I am concerned. Not sure who else has said it but I think Brown did an okay job of tearing it all down and laying a clean foundation on which to build? And as someone (else or the same person) said - Brown wasn't GM and wasn't pulling the trigger on draft picks. jmo. To clarify - I think the success was due to all of the above. GW would have won more games than Hue because he was a better coach (whether it was TT or BM). GW would not have won as many games as he did with the same roster as last year.

I warned u to stay away ... how’s it working out so far .... ...

Love when u asked it about “what type of logic are u using” .. when u have to ask that question ... isn’t that a sign you prolly shouldn’t be engaged in the convo ... just sayin ...

ok

what about chubb?

nah man, ward is 5x the player JM

who said or implied that?

You must just troll for arguments... Is that your satisfaction here?

Or maybe you have reading comprehension issues? Please go and read what I've said if you care to engage with me. I would have said "go back and re-read" but it's obvious you didn't read the first time. Maybe then we can have an actual meaningful conversation. I won't wait.

According to PFF McCourty was ranked higher than Ward... albeit not by much... and I wasn't referring to the rookies. I don't think it's right to assume we would have drafted the same players that Dorsey did if Sashi were here.

To be fair in this argument, and I know this is a bad take (but fulfills the fact Sashi acquired many of these picks before he was jettisoned), but I assume however that the players we would have selected at 1, 4, 33, 35, 64, 65, and 101 would be on the roster among other draft picks (picks 4, 35, and 64 were acquired by Sashi). I can't assume we make the same trades and I can't assume the same players selected. I'd also assume Kizer is still here and FS is still a possible need.


In other words, it's difficult to say how much different things would be... you could take this in any direction you like, but one thing is for certain, we don't have some of these young players without the assets Sashi brought in... One could be bold enough to attribute picks 4, 35, and 64 to Sashi if they like, but that's not me...

My point is simply we aren't as good as we are right now and our future isn't as bright without the work Sashi did, whether we do or do not have those 1st overall picks from the past 2 drafts... Others will sell it to you differently, but that wouldn't be accurate.

devi..I have always believed that there is no substitute for EXPERIENCE to insure a positive outcome.

Regardless whether we are talking about an electrician or a mechanic, a football coach or a GM...EXPERIENCE related to their field of work is the #1 quality I look for.

Dorsey brought 35 yrs of football experience with him when he joined the Browns and he brought a couple of ex-Packers with him who added more experience to our front office... Eliot Wolf and Alonzo Highsmith.

I'm looking forward to this season as the Browns turn around continues...woof

Joe Thomas retired. He will go into the Hall of Fame on his 1st ballot.



He did, but not a better year than Chubb. Crow also got hurt and missed the final 3 games.



He's been a solid CB over the course of his career, and I wish we would have kept him. However, he is 31, and I am sure that factored into things. He also had derogatory comments about the 2017 coaches, and I am sure that sealed his fate once Haslem decided to bring Hue back.

Mac, you keep judging the performance of Sashi Brown as a GM. I will say it again, Sashi was not the GM. From the moment Farmer was fired, to the moment Dorsey was hired, the job of GM of the Cleveland Browns was vacant. Sashi was the Vice President of Football Operations. Since there was no GM, he did the tasks normally done by a GM.

But here is the key difference, and what you don't seem to take into consideration when judging Sashi; the GM's main job is building a team. Sashi wasn't trying to build the team, he was building the GM position. When Farmer was fired, it was the worst GM job in the NFL. Dorsey wanted the job because Sashi had completely turned it around.

IMO, Sashi knew he didn't have the knowledge or experience to be a GM, but he knew how to make the position desirable enough for a top GM candidate to want it. So that is what he did, and he did a good job.

You could have added owner to that list as well.


Just saying.


Owners don't really have a apprentice program and work their way up to being owner like a GM does over 30 years, or a scout, or mechanic, etc.

They are just people who managed to make a boatload of money in their life venture and were in position to buy a NFL franchise. Heck, to buy a McDonalds franchise a new franchisee has to work for 6 months in a store for evaluation. At least they did when my brother bought his first store in the mid 70's. McDonalds wanted you to know what you were getting in to and wanted some idea if you would be successful. They had to work the various stations just as a crew person would, learn the systems, procedures, the control methods. McDonalds didn't and doesn't just grant a franchise because you had/have the coin to buy one. You have to be invested in the system.

They wanted to know you knew how, and would do it the right way. Ray Kroc didn't allow it any other way.


The NFL, there is a limited supply of people with the ability to buy a team, so they can't put too many requirement above having the coin. Lot's of people can find a way to come up with a quarter mil cash and a net worth doubled that. Lot's less can find a billion or so.

Your right.

Time to move on to something else.

Personally, I think Dorsey signed vets so that he could give Hue a halfway decent shot.

If Hue became a problem, he could cut or trade the vets for nothing and put the nail in Hue's coffin.

I suppose that's fair... To want experience. It works sometimes.

Experience is most likely why we went with Hue and fired Sashi and we all know how that turned out.

I guess my post is best understood by knowing what preceded it. There's some who believe the roster turnover is the reason for the turnaround from 0 wins to 7 wins. I was merely pointing out that we got rid of some pretty good players for some lesser or equivalent players.

The roster turnover has a lot less to do with our success than a few key additions. We all know who those key additions are, however some here have their agendas to uphold and insist on spreading fake news.

I have to think they either know they're trolling or they really don't understand why we started winning.

We started winning because we added players like Baker, Chubb, Ward, Randall, Landry, Callaway, Perriman, Fells, Hubbard, Robinson, Avery, and so forth. Mostly, though, we added Baker.

.........And got rid of Hue. Hue coached those same players and could not win.

That's true. I just went with players.

Either way, we are trending up.

It still remains to be seen if Freddie can be the HC we hope for, so we will have to wait and see, though I think he will be just fine in that role.

Can't give Farmer a pass cause he made the pick regardless who wanted him or not, he made the pick without investigating the player at all...who does that. Gilbert is one of our worst picks and we got a lot of them.

Only good pick in our past that gets a bad rap is Courtney Brown, guy was good. and no indication of injuries in his past.

Dorsey is amazing in what he did. Draft picks and FA picks.
Just amazing!

thank goodness and now he is getting his HC to work with Man am I excited on what he can do this coming year. Still with big time Cap room and now FA seemingly WANT TO PLAY FOR US. That is a big time key. No more Begging and no more getting the guy who is coming here just for the money.

The movement has arrived. Players loving to play for the Browns. Players loving to play with Baker.

This is so much fun a coming.

jmho

Yes we do. Hue was given a fair shot with real talent and failed. We ended up with a real GM who knew how to use assets to build a real team.

In the end it all seems to have worked out great.

You sure do.

Lol. Says the one who ignores the truth.

If that's what you truly believe, then I can see why you have your agendas. Good luck.

The truth that Dorsey rebuilt this team? Nah, I refuse to ignore it and claim it didn't matter. I don't claim that we could have won 7 games with last years OT's, last years RB's, last years secondary and a rebuilt WR core.

Nah, I'm not the one trying to say that only a HC and QB makes the difference. And I'm not the one who is trolling by using crap content like "fake news".

Lol...Pit would rather have Robinson and Hubbard over Joe Thomas and (insert anyone else really) but Shon Coleman.

See what cherry picks posts is like?

The key to start winning was firing HUE, the most inept HC in the history of the game.

We improved plenty when Hue stopped calling games, and the team turnaround was massive once he was taken out of the building.

Firing Hue was the Key factor.... you and the others know that, but I don't know why you will never admit it.

Ahhhh...

You must have missed the fact that Joe Thomas retired and we had no LT. Robinson was certainly a great find when almost everyone on the board had said the only hope was signing Nate Solder. There didn't appear to be one in the draft. There didn't appear to be on on the market. Yet Dorsey managed to find a suitable LT.

Nah, it was just everyone's imagination.

I'm not sure why you insist on making things up. If you really want to have a reasonable conversation, great. Otherwise, I'm not going to indulge you when you continue to say I've said things I haven't said. If that's how you insist on playing I'll let you troll someone else.

Yeah, yeah. Sure, sure.

Yeah, I forgot Joe Thomas retired. Again, you're completely missing the point. And what does last year's OT have to do with Thomas retiring? Joe was on last year's OT. He wasn't on this year's. This has nothing to do with my post but I still smirked at this.



No one is saying this. Stop making stuff up and changing people's argument. It's lame and a horrible tactic. Shame on you.

Dorsey found a LT out of nowhere. It was part of rebuilding this team. It was also very beneficial in protecting a rookie QB and his development. Yet some on here have seemed to indicate that the total rebuild of this team wasn't as important as it actually was and will be moving forward.

No one is saying this. Stop making stuff up and changing people's argument. It's lame and a horrible tactic. Shame on you.

Of course it is. Dorsey deserves credit for finding an LT. Who is saying he doesn't? Not me. Not devicedawg, the other person you debating with. You are trying to re-create posters' arguments. Stop doing this.

There were alot of things that went into rebuilding this team, but all of it isn't confined to 2018. This is what you choose not to accept (and for obvious reasons, unfortunately).

And yes, Robinson is part of that in 2018. Most people have said this countless times in one way or another.

I am well aware. And I have said as much.

Actually, Dorsey deserves credit for finding 2 LTs... Desmond Harris is clearly raw but most felt he was doing a respectable job, enough that we didn't have to panic over the position even if he wasn't the long term solution.

If Harrison amounts to something in the future, absolutely.

You are right. Only 60% of it in one year. Year two is still to come. Rome wasn't built in a day. If there are only 10 players left going into the 2019 season from Sashi's regime, will you still be singing the same song?

Yeah, almost every skill position on the roster was turned over heading into 2018, no biggie.

But wait a minute.... Hue finally failed when he was given a good roster. He was a darn good coach with a bad roster in 2016 and 2017. Poor Hue suffered right through that mess. I don't think any other coach on the planet could have managed to stay sane with a roster like that. Thankfully, this magician came along and transformed the entire roster in less than a year. I don't know what happened, but all of a sudden Hue couldn't coach.

Do you even know what you're trying to argue?

Using a false narrative doesn't help you. What was said was the Hue deserved to have a decent roster to see if he was a good coach or not. Maybe that's where you're real hang up is. Because that's what Dorsey said and did.

I'm sure that great QB room of the 2016 Browns gave Hue every chance at success, right? That great secondary? Corey Coleman? The Crow?

So Hue got a fair shot and failed. It was Dorsey who accumulated the team that gave Hue that shot. But I've figured out the real problem here. Dorsey said that you had to give Hue some real players and that hadn't been done before. He did just that and now you refuse to give him the proper credit for it because, well...... Sashi!

Yes I do. It's just against the rules of the board to actually state what that is.

Wow.

That went right over your head.

From my perspective you aren't as smart as you think you are.

I don't think I'm smart at all. Im just logical.


Let's try this another way...

Now this is according to you:

2016 - not a real roster- Hue Jackson 1-15
2017 - not a real roster- Hue Jackson 0-16
2018 - real roster- Hue Jackson 2-5-1
2018 - real roster- Gregg Williams 5-3


What do you devise from this?

w8...for you, it seems that it's the lack of the name "general manager", that proves that Sashi was not the Browns GM.

It is a fact that some franchises do not use the term "GM" to identify the position that is in charge of their roster/player personnel, etc. That does not mean those franchises are operating without someone performing the duties of the GM positions.

Many teams use  "Executive vice president/general manager"...Ravens, Saints, Steelers..
...Jerry Jones calls himself the "Owner/president/general manager"..
...Mike Brown is listed as the Bengals "President/general manager"..
...the Redskins use 2 names "Senior VP of player personnel" and "Senior VP of football operations" with no mention of "a GM"..
...the Eagles use the name " Executive Vice President of Football Operations"..no mention of a GM but Howie Roseman handles the duties of GM for the Eagles.


As for Sashi Brown, ask yourself...
...who was put in charge of the Browns 53 man roster?
...was he involved the draft and in judging draft talent?
...was he involved in the Browns "free agency" strategy?

w8, you can claim that Sashi wasn't the Browns GM and you can create your own job description for Sashi, claiming " Sashi wasn't trying to build the team, he was building the GM position ".

That explanation might satisfy you, but you will not change my opinion!

Sashi was the Browns GM, doing his best to use analytics to help judge talent..especially draft talent. It was Haslam who hired Sashi to fill the role, knowing full well that Sashi was weak on football experience. 

I devise that we did not have a good roster in 2016 or 2017. I devise that Hue could have won more games if he were a better coach but it still wouldn't have made those rosters any better.

I devise that Hue did not have a chance of having a winning season in either 2016 nor 2017 with the talent he was given. I devise that we're better off with Hue gone.

I devise that Dorsey overhauled this roster and we are better at almost every skill position and that Dorsey is fully responsible for that. I devise that neither Sashi nor those that came before him had a clue on addressing the skill positions and without that you're basically non competitive in the NFL.

Dorsey is the one who addressed our weaknesses and gave us a competitive roster and some wish not to give him credit for what he accomplished. They wish to indicate we had much more talent than we did before Dorsey arrived.

I think this is where I think the foul up is. Sashi was the final say on the 53 man roster, but that really wasn't important when you have a collaborative group. I think it was said several times that Sashi would rely heavily on guys like Andrew Berry for talent evaluations. I would contend to make up the traditional GM position we had several in the front office to make up this one position and Sashi was just a small part of that.

I'd say that's difficult to devise from record alone. I also wouldn't be able to say one way or another because Sashi wasn't in charge of that.




I read this board a lot and I'll admit not every post. However, I've never seen anyone discredit what Dorsey has done. What I continually see are the posts that discredit the acquisitions of picks and players that the Browns made under Sashi's watch. I think it's obvious we aren't here without them both, but some profess a false narrative that speaks otherwise.

It's obvious to me that when you trade down you acquire picks. I don't see that as anything that anyone wouldn't acquire when trading down or trading players away. We have 11 picks this year too. So it seems that Dorsey can mange that same accomplishment while also building an actual team. I give Sashi credit for getting some talent, but he failed miserably at putting a competitive team together or addressing any of the skill positions. You don't win football games with a weak secondary and a lack of skill players.

I am not taking side in this deal, but turning rosters after a new GM or coach enters isn't unusual. They always see great change...I mean why would you change much if you are winning on a regular basis?


My feeling is this:

After Hue was released we made great strides this year. It is evident that Hue was holding the team back due to his lack of leadership ability. There is no denying that. It was night and day from the get go once he was released.

That said, it is reasonable to think that Hue was also holding back the teams that Sashi and crew provided.

That isn't to say that Sashi was as good as Dorsey....he wasn't. He just wasn't providing a group of players with which you couldn't win games.

I think it's fair to say that Sashi was better at his job then Hue was at his.

j/c:

The original post was great. Very insightful. It was so freaking worthy of discussion. I was thrilled when I first read it because of all the talking points that it presented.

However, as I was reading it, the thought dawned on me that the usual suspects would turn this thread into another Sashi vs Hue thread. And sure enough, they didn't disappoint.

Both Sashi and Hue are gone. They aren't coming back no matter how much you people cry and pine for them [well, one of them.]

So, if there are any posters who are sick and tired of a few posters hijacking almost every thread and turning it into a Sashi/Hue thread and would rather discuss the actual topic............please let me know because I have quite a bit to say about this topic. I would also love to hear from other intelligent posters about the topic rather than the dumb-ass agenda posts.

I'm trying to reach out to guys like YTown, Guard, Cap, eotab, oober, Fate, Tru, Pred, bone, Diam, Pit, Purp, etc. Let's talk about the subject and drown out the agenda BS crowd. What do you say?

Welcome back!

You done did it now, Peen!

But you're right.

I think they both sucked at their jobs and both should have been fired after 1-31. But I like where that crap situation has brought us.

The only thing I can say is this:

Despite what happened in the past, I like the path we're on right now.

It's like when you start a new relationship .... you may look back and see good and bad in your exes ...... but they are now out of your life, and irrelevant.

Sashi wasn’t as bad as Hue .... WOW ... thats a real high bar .... ....

Look man ... i expect that crap from deputy, device and Memph ... they have there own little Sashi Rocks cult ... i dont expect it from u ..

ARE U KIDDDING ME???? What a FRICKIN JOKE that statement is ... how does us winning with DORSEYS PLAYERS after we fired hue prove sashi was good ... ... you’d hold yourself in contempt if u made that statement in your courtroom bro ... *L* ...

I get Sashi’s Heroes not wanting to adress my post what so ever ... HOW DO U IGNORE IT? .. they have to call me out on being to agressive and for spelling and grammar cause they GOT NOTHING ELSE ... they can’t refute a thing i said .. NOT ONE THING ... like I said ...

FACTS DON’T HAVE FEELINGS!!!!

Come on Peen ... DEFEND THIS my friend ..

1st pick is C. Coleman ... he was on 4 teams this year ... HOW IS HE GOOD BY ANY STRETCH? ... he wasn’t cut because of a new GM in Buffalo or NE .... Crap .. Buffalo traded for him and cut him 2 or 3 weeks later .. *L* .. stupid Dorsey wanting his own guys ... ...

U GONNA HANG THAT ON THE sweeping BS general statement ... ummmm ... uhhhhh .. it was to be expected it was a NEW GM ... sorry ... FACTS TELL A DIFFERENT STORY ...

Then he was soooo gooood he got cut YET AGAIN last year .... that means two GM’s not named Dorsey CUT HIM after Dorsey hosed the bills ...

Ya ... awesome pick ...

THEN U GET OGBAH ... good pick ..

Carl Nassib ... .. another AWESOME PICK ... at least he got some PT this year ... that is quite the accomplishment for the majority of Sashi’s picks in 16 ..

Next up .. S.Coleman ... he is SOOOO GOOOOOD I don’t believe he played a down this year in Frisco ... guess there GM wanted his guys also .. oh wait ... he traded for Coleman witch means COLEMAN IS ONE OF HIS GUYS ...

Then next up is C. Kessler ... ...

WOW ... U starting to see a trend here Peen? ...

SASHI SUCKED .. as did Hue ... saying Sashi was “better “ than Hue is like saying that Elmo was definelty the toughest smurf ... wippie doooooo ... King John cleaned house of Sashi’s BUMS cause they STUNK not cause he wanted his guys ... witch ones went on and did SQUAT ANYWHERE ELSE ... McCourtny and i’ll give u the BUM Nassib ... after that ... GOOD LUCK PEEN ...

U want to continue? ... we can go on and on with HORRIBLE DRAFT PICKS that still ain’t done DIDDLY in the NFL ...

Look at his 2017 draft ... how many are all ready gone .. 3 or 4 of them ... and NONE OF THEM HAVE DONE SQUAT ANYWHERE ELSE ..... NONE of the 17 picks that got moved made a 2nd year jump ... NOT ONE OF THEM ...
...

The menZas who know nuttin but stats will bring up nassib ... that just proves how little they actually know about anything but the stat sheet ..

Sorry Peen .. u need to explain to me what Sashi did that tells me he can BUILD A TEAM ... he proved he can tear one down ... i said from day 1 that was THE EASY PART ... the hard part was the re-assembly ... and i’m suppose to trust Sashi for that one ... WHY??? Cause of Garret and Shobert ... WHAT ABOUT ALL THE BUMS ... crap .. dude drafted 3 or 4 WR’s in one of the WORST WR DRAFTS IN DECADES!!! BRILLIANT!

It clearly wasn’t his KEEN EYE FOR TALENT ... especially at the QB position .... u guys can spin it any way u want ...

He passed on not one, not two but three FRANCHISE QB’S .. and he passed on one of them twice ... meanwhile he brought us QB rooms of:

RG3, McCown and Cody ... with Cody starting the majority of games ...

Kizer, Kessler and Hogan ...

WHAT QB ROOMS ... ...

U guys have to OVERLOOK AN AWFUL LOT OF HORRIBLE MOVES to puff your boy up ... like i said i get it from device and deputy and Memph ... u ... WOW ... maybe u oughta up the number of miles u walk a day ... either that or order your ... I miss Sashi shirts .... *L* ...

U wanna have a serious discussion about the job Sashi did .. LETS GO ... it wont end well for u ...

U can hang your hat on the Garrett pick .. at least he didn’t screw that up ...

Just curious .... when King John does the right thing and cuts Collins this off season ... u gonna blame that on King John simply “wanting” his guys ... GIMME A BREAK BRO ...

I'm not defending the guy, but Sashi Brown's philosophy was to stack up draft picks so you could afford to miss on some ...... because that's what's going to happen anyway.

That all said, i am glad we have Dorsey.

Question; do you think John Dorsey would have taken the job if it didn't come with all the cap space and draft capital? Is it so hard to believe that this was by design and not by accident?

Please do add your comments. Like any thread on any topic it starts to stray as one minor comment somewhat off topic leads to another and another.

I'd like you to help steer it back to main stream, at least as long as you can.

It sure sounds like your defending him ... he missed on way more than his fair share .. u wanna IGNORE THE RESULTS .. thats your call ..

PS. QB is a FAIRLY IMPORTANT position in todays NFL ... appearantly you must be IGNORING that also or maybe u think EVEN ONE OF THOSE QB’S ISN’T COMPLETE CRAP ...

He had 6 QB’s he went into seasons with ... NOT ONE OF THEM IS ANY GOOD ... there barely back ups ...

Look at this dawg ... and Peen said we had a “natural” turnover due to a new GM wanting his own guys ... LETS LOOK AT THE GUYS THAT ARE GONE and see how they’ve done ... then compare it to the guys that Sashi let walk ... were not even gonna see any Kelvin Benjamins on this list MUCH LESS ANY Mitchell Scwartz’s .... i give Sashi a pass on Mack .. he didn’t want to come back ...

- Kizer/Kessler/Hogan ...
- Crowell/Dayes/Vitale/M. Williams
- S. Coates/C. Coleman/KENNY FNG BRITT/J. Leslie/K. Williams
- Z. Banner/S. Coleman/S. Drango/G. Geoff/A. Reitier/M. Martin

Thats the first 4 positions the site google sent me to listed ... U SEEING A PATTERN HERE Y-TOWN? ...

Ya Dorsey was a new GM that wanted HIS GUYS ... he also didn’t want a BUNCH OF CRAP that Sashi aquired ...

Sashi’s cult is trying to paint him into something he wasn’t .. there trying to make a MARTYR out of the dude when he SUCKED EGGS on a good day ...

He was GREAT at the tear down and at setting the table ... i even THANKED HIM for that after he got his OWN BUTT CANNED cause he couldn’t find even a BELOW AVERAGE QB ...

But to say he could build a team BASED OFF HIS DRAFT RESULTS IS A JOKE on a good day ...

I’m not gonna sit here and watch device, Memp and the president of the Kirby Smart fan club MARTYR Sashi cause its NOT TRUE ... HE STUNK TOO ...

U wanna give him credit for leaving behind possibly the greatest table setting EVER ... i’m right there with u ... (as long as your incredibly lucky to get a 4th bite at the franchise QB apple) but when u extrapolate that out too he would have had success with the re-build ... HIS TALENT AQUISITION HISTORY here does not support that conclusion .. NOT EVEN CLOSE ...

facts don’t have feelings bro ...

End of the day this convo should be about THANKING SASHI for not being able to find a QB and THANKING Andy Reid for getting Dorsey fired and having him sitting there ...

THIS COULD NOT HAVE WORKED OUT ANY BETTER FOR US ... we got the best of BOTH WORLDS ...

An excellent tear down dude followed by what has been an excellent TALENT AQUIRER who has built one hell of a FO and ROSTER in his limited time here ...

GOOD LUCK KING JOHN ... can’t wait to see whats at the end of the rainbow your building here ...

That really wasn't my intent. A few posters were going back and forth...I finally added my comment.

It's hard to talk about the subject without it moving in to the coaching and front office because they are closely related, but it doesn't need to be the main focus.

Earlier yesterday I thought about asking the thread be locked. It seemed that the discussion was back to the same old same old finger pointing. We've been through that. In the end, we were all right to a degree, and all were wrong to a degree.

I am not going to paste your entire reply diam.

My comment wasn't to defend sashi or put Hue down to a larger degree. They both sucked.

Yep, Coleman and a bunch of others were bad choices. I mean Willis Adams type bad. You could name others who totally sucked as 1st round picks.

The comment wasn't intended to start another war of sorts. Those guys are dead and gone.

Alright, I will try. I'll start small and see if anyone wants to discuss the real talking points. I'll add more if others want to discuss the the article and some of the key points. I will bow out if the beat-to-death Sashi/Hue argument continues to be the point of emphasis.

A few talking points might be:

--I think this is a legitimate article. I think the author was much more fair and did a lot more work than the typical journalists that pop off tweets that are based on innuendo, hearsay, speculation, and drawing attention to themselves.

--I believe that while the author did get his information from sources who are w/the Browns or were once part of the organization, we still have to take notice of who those sources might have been and how their comments might be slanted due to their loyalties. I think this is important.

--One could argue that Haslam did not intentionally create the environment that helped to breed an atmosphere of tension and dissension, but it's pretty clear that that is exactly what occurred with every single regime change. I think this is a very important talking point.

--Related to the above comment, I get the comments of people like bonefish, Mourg, Diam, etc who say that this is a different regime and things are looking up under Dorsey's direction. However, what happens if the team does not meet the lofty expectations of the club, the fans, and the media next year? Will the coaching staff's lack of experience in their current roles be easy targets? Will Kitchen's appearance and delivery be ridiculed? Will the analytic guys who didn't agree w/Dorsey's choice of coach make waves in the building? And the biggest question is what will Haslam do if the these things occur? Will he continue to defer to Dorsey, or will others in the building get in his ear and affect his judgement? I am of the opinion that Haslam is the elephant in the room. That concern is tremendously amplified due to the fact that he is the owner of the team and has a history of creating divisiveness and dissension in the complex in Berea.

Anyone care to converse about any of those talking points?

Oh my goodness.

j/c


I would agree this thread derailed and I'm sorry I got trolled into it. I would implore anyone who just hopped in to read meaningful posts to go back before the wrecking crew came in. There were actually good talks before this turned into a Hue vs Sashi vs Dorsey debate and the twisted jumble of words this became. Good lord.

I would argue that, although I'm obviously not sure I'm right. Not going back to read the entire article but I know there was a strong inference that JH "confided" in many people. Leadership is hard, those around you don't generally tell you what you're doing wrong, they kiss your butt instead.

I remember reading something like "he confides in everyone and you think you're the one he trusts". It reminded me of my leadership style when I was "new" in business. You would think that making a special effort to get differing opinions would make them feel "included". Sadly, it can have the opposite effect. I remember asking an opinion of someone who was very important to my operation and seeing a uninspired look on his face.

"What's wrong Jim?"
"Well, it just seems like every time I give you my opinion, you never take my advice anyway."

I could really only think of two times I had asked, and neither time did his "advice" make any sense. I quickly realized that it would be smarter to walk around like an imperialistic-know-it-all than to ask for everyone's opinions on different things. Thank them, let them know you appreciate their work, but quit trying to "include them".

It's easy to forget that these people are dying to go back to a group of peers and say "Jimmy said this, Jimmy said that, Jimmy said he doesn't really trust our draft process, etc, etc..."

And sadly, as the leader... no one tells you this is a problem until it is a BIG problem. They'll be sure to run up and inform you of every triviality, but no one is telling you your breath stinks or there is a bugger hanging out of your nose.

That's an interesting take. Thanks.

My biggest concern is the high expectations of the fans. I've seen teams make a big jump one year and then take a step back the following before really hitting their stride. This may not happen with the Browns, but it wouldn't surprise me either. The schedule will be tougher, and another 7-8 win season could be a reality. Sometimes, unrealistic expectations lead some to conclude a team is underachieving. In reality, the underacheivement is a case of just not living up to those lofty expectations. I'm all for high goals and going into each game expecting to win, but the reality is, while we're a team trending up, it doesn't guarantee we make a huge jump this season. The hope is that Haslam stays out of the way of Dorsey and Co.

This is the idea that should terrify every Browns fan.


I'm not concerned about fan expectations. I would venture to guess that winning will sneak up on most fans. As much as only 7-8 wins is possible, so is winning the Super Bowl. We jumped from 0 wins to 7 wins. That is already unprecedented. Barring major injury to a key piece of the puzzle, we are in prime position for the immediate future.

Tempering expectations is hard. And to be blunt, that's not my job as a fan. Even in a fan community like this, I know that there will be people calling for heads to roll if we're not 10-6, still not my job to temper my expectations so that they don't over-react. Won't do it. It's the job of the organization to stay the course (as long as it is a good course) when we fail to meet lofty expectations. You would think that JH would be able to do that after the misery he's endured over the last few years. But again, egotistical billionaires aren't always the easiest to convince that "things are alright".

Where Haslam is concerned it comes down to management style. Managing hundreds of Flying J's bears little similarity to running an NFL franchise. I remember reading that he loved to travel all over the country and pop in at locations unannounced. He would compliment the workers, ask questions, tell them they were doing a great job. Everybody went home proud that day and he was lauded as being a "hands on" owner.

1 Lou Groza Boulevard is a very different place, dark when you're not winning... and always just you against many enemies. It requires a stiff hierarchy and an owner that doesn't ignore his place in it. Hopefully with Dorsey, JH has a man he can trust and will stay out of his way. If not, more shenanigans.

Making friends I see...lol

Anyways, I and most of this board acknowledges how lucky we were in getting Dorsey and getting him at the right time to make some very important decisions. He seemed to be the only one who knew Baker was THE GUY. His pick of Ward was questioned by so so many as well.

I did question his pick of Corbett, I didn't understand it but his pick of Chubb was amazing, I didn't realize how good Chubb was.

Calloway and Avery both amzing pick ups for a 4th and 5th round picks.

Harrison seemed to be the best LT in the draft and we got him at UDFA status.

Trades for Randall, TT and Landry were good moves.

FA pickups for Hubbard, Robinson. Shoring up our CB situation with Mitchell along with Ward. changed our entire CB situation.

Dorsey was without a doubt the Right guy at the Right time.

What I don't understand if the lack of credit given to Sashi for what transpired.

he is the one who took the brunt of two terrible seasons as we did a very RARE total Rebuild. That took guts and in the process accumulated Expansion amounts of Draft picks for Impact players.

He did draft Garrett who is a STUD, Ogbah, Schobert, Peppers, He did go out and get our Interior Zietler and Tretter. Was Botonio a pick of his??? Njoku,

So we were sitting there with the #1 #4 pick for Dorsey to make great picks for us. We were sitting with the best Cap Space of any team.

I'm so happy Dorsey came on board but his success would not be so without the set up of Sashi. Would Sashi have ruined it if he stayed on board. Not sure of ruin but definitely not the same moves made by Dorsey for sure.

Dorsey also set up the Personnel department to be a functioning asset and in the right direction. He also had the ware with all to keep Depodesta on board and a force in our process.

But I got to give Sashi a thank you and some credit for our success.

I'm happy for the job both have done. We are a better team because of Sashi and definitely because of Dorsey for sure!

I don't see the success for one means the other was no good. Both had a say in the results that happened.

For once our TIMING was great. As in the past our timing had to be the worst. We got the right guy at the right time and we had to live through HUE's Tenure here but at the end we now have Dorsey's pick of HC and the staff that is now assembled here. Got to see if it works out as well as the other football decisions. But I'm tickled pink to get to the stage that we are at!

I don't think it was intentional, but as the writer said, it created an appeals court for Hue. Sashi had Jimmys ear at the time. Maybe Sashi's inexperience played in to that?

None the less, it created a divide once things started to go badly on the field. That's when fingers start to point. We know from the article and the Fact Sashi was let go first shows that Hue was pointing a finger. It's fair to assume Sashi was as well.

Another thought....maybe this goes back to Chud. I read somewhere that Jimmy was never really thrilled with that hire. If looks like he went with Banner or whoever pegged him as the coach and after that season he decided he wasn't going to do that anymore. Possible?

I thought it was Banner who didn't like the hire... and he made the hire because he couldn't get the guy he wanted and he had every intention of firing Chud after one season to get his guy the next season. It was after the Chud firing that the media turned on Jimmy and labeled him as having a quick trigger finger. He didn't like that, so he fired Banner... at least that's the impression I took from the article I read.

Or did I not read that right?

When you start out with dumb comments you didn't get sucked in. You simply have to work your butt off to try and defend them. Diam gave you perfect examples of why Sashi sucked. Good luck defending the facts he presented. And stop blaming others for your self inflicted wounds.

I will admit that Sashi was so bad he left us in the perfect position to draft Baker and assets to build a team with. But looking at his draft record, that's about all I can say.

I don't know. It wasn't touched on in this article. It did say everybody voted to replace Chud.

You could be right. I just seem to remember that Haslam was never warm to the hire.

Sashi wasn't the guy coaching and calling stupid games, the guy who instilled a no discipline, loser, mentality in the locker room,among many other things.

After what we have witnessed this year after firing Hue, I honestly believe people still talk about Sashi just not to look foolish.

The infamous "Three Stooges" question during the presser after Chud was fired didn't help matters for Banner either. Haslam was getting embarrassed.

Speaking to the media one day after firing first-year head coach Rob Chudzinski, Browns owner Jimmy Haslam and CEO Joe Banner were asked, poignantly, “Can you assure the fans that you don’t have the three stooges running this operation?”

Link

I think it more likely it is former employees. People with jobs aren't all that eager to lose them, especially since things are looking up.

We could speculate all day on the who. Former coaches, front office people, and 3rd party types...you know...Joe Banner once told me, blah,blah,blah. I doubt everything is 100% true, but all in all I think it is as credible as it is possible to get without sources going on record, and even then, that is only their point of view. People who lost a job are at least 51% leaning to their side of the story.

What was I thinking. With Corey Coleman as your main weapon and DeShone Kizer in the pocket and Crow in the backfield, we should have been great.

The dissension in Berea did not start w/Sashi and Hue. It was there w/every regime that Haslam brought in. I'm trying to get this thread back on track. If it's only going to be about Sashi and Hue, then I'll bow out.

I am not trying to make it that. That is just the recent example.

I think it was set up that way from the beginning. I don't think the coach reported to Banner. We can insert any coaches names we want. Pet didn't report to Farmer.

Haslams problem is he wanted to be the problem solver and listened a little to much. At one point, no matter the coaching staff or front office, he would have been better off telling a few to just shut-up and coach better or go get better players.

I think the answer to all of this is a rather simple one. When a team gets together, be it the players on a team or the coaching and FO team, they have every intention of working together. Everything usually starts out in a healthy manner. But when the losing starts and the pressure piles up, people's jobs and careers are on the line.

At that point self preservation creeps in. Human nature calls for survival of the fittest. To show it's not your fault. Failure has a way of bringing out the worst in people. It's why we've seen this pattern over and over again here in Cleveland. That's why the names have been changing yet the situation has stayed the same.

It's been a vicious cycle that I have long called The Merry-Go-Round of Misery.

It has to stop in order for this team to ever find true success. I'm praying that Kitchen and the boys get off to a fast start next year because I don't trust the local media, some of our fans, and most importantly---Haslam.

After all the years we've witnessed it and regimes we've been through, history dictates that's what will happen.

It most certainly does. People would rather lie, twist the facts, attack and make a fool of themselves rather than admit that they're wrong.

I've seen evidence of that.

And that's exactly where Haslam's management style became so detrimental. Confiding in "underlings" is not a big deal in a successful environment. In a Merry-Go-Round of Misery it creates ill-will and becomes a cancer. It's contagious bro, it's con-ta-gious.

What's worse (especially in politics), if somebody actually does have the kahunas to admit that they were wrong....rather than getting respect, he'll get pounced on by a pack of disgusting hyenas.

I certainly feel having several people reporting directly to Haslam rather than the standard management protocol added to the dysfunction.

I think everybody knows that winning cures all. I just don't think the fans and media are going to turn as fast as some think if we don't win out of the gate. There is a honeymoon period.

My feeling is it might even be longer this year considering all the losing over the past few years.

We can't allow a few posters on a mission around here make us think that is how people are thinking out in public. In other words, I don't think this board is a good cross section as compared to the general public. I mean we just had a coach who had a pretty long grace period, so I don't think things are going to turn ugly early. I think the new front office structure is going to help that. We aren't going to have GM and coach fighting for position with the owners

I don't believe the last HC had a very long grace period with the fan base. But you could be right by saying "right out of the gate". Once we get past mid season I think the grace period will be over.

As for Hue I didn't see any indication that the fan base gave him a very long grace period either. I also don't see him being here as long as he was as a grace period on the part of Haslam either. I'm not saying I'm right, but it appeared to me as more of a necessary evil on the part of Haslam. He had been so impatient with every HC and FO to that point, it seemed to me like he had to show people around the league that he was willing to give Hue every opportunity to succeed here. His impatience was notorious and he had to send a different message as much as it pained him to do so.

No, this fan base nor ownership has never been one to give either FO's nor HC's much of a grace period. It's only natural because the frustration level had grown over a period of almost two decades.

And as of now I feel the expectation level is as high or higher than its ever been since our return. If things don't go well people will be looking for a scape goat. Usually it has been the HC first. This has been the pattern since 1999. I certainly hope this trend changes but I've seen zero evidence to this point that indicates it will.

Yep. And I'm becoming more convinced that was the real kiss of death. I understand part of the intent by JH though. Think about it, you just bought your shiny new toy (and the shine may take a while to wear off if you paid 1 billion). You have full confidence in your own ability to lead and want to foster a collaborative environment during your "on the job training". You keep the roles loose and interject your leadership everywhere - expecting success.

At Facebook Inc? Sure, maybe... NFL - not for long when there is constant losing. Lack of traditional NFL hierarchy just exacerbated every failure and made the organization look more and more confused and clueless about its future. If we can't assume where to point the fingers from the outside looking in, what do we expect those on the inside to do??

Set a traditional NFL hierarchy and play it by the letter until you have success. Roles can easily be adjusted or tweaked as you go anyway. Wake up and realize the smartest thing you can do is trust your leaders to lead, and do your bast to stay out of their way, no matter how hard it has you champing at the bit. It's a lot easier to learn from people when you see them succeeding anyway.

You're the owner. You have every right to be involved and informed... deal with it directly with your GM and let him do his job.

The more I look back at the past, the more I place blame on the Farmer hire. He was literally thrown in to a near hopeless position, all at the selfishness of an owner that thought he would try his next round of "Jimmy Haslam magic"... with a puppet.

I hold out hope that he has learned from all this. Early results are actually impressive... since the Dorsey hire. The last stumbling block was getting over the hump of what Jimmy thought was a good idea, and I can't fault him, giving Hue a short leash for redemption. Again, hierarchy dictated, and showed exactly why it's important, when you saw a new GM with a coach he didn't hire, arguing with a OC he didn't hire either. I say the last stumbling block because all JH has to do now is let his leaders lead. And he can't do anything more to help until we have a successful, winning organization.

I hope this isn't a dead horse.

I have often tried to explain on this very board that there's a world of difference in marketing a product you've been provided with and building a winning product. Such as it is with selling fuel you purchase from someone else and building a winning football team. It's apples and oranges.

Hopefully Haslam has turned the corner where he realizes it too.

History doesn't dictate anything. And the team is operating under an entirely different set of circumstances than from ever before. 1) We have a franchise QB who produces. 2) We have a head coach selected by the GM, who reports to the GM. 3) We have the most talented rosters in 30 years. These three things alone are enough to change the course of events.

Then there are other mitigating circumstances that make this regime different, the degree to which they affect the overall outcome though will be hard to measure until after the outcome, whether next year or five years from now. Like Freddie's team first, all for one, one for all attitude and egoless leadership. His seemingly creative approach to play calling. His ability to motivate the players and coaches, and so on.

There is also the degree to which the Haslams, Jimmie in particular, are willing to give up the reigns and let the professionals run the show. Now that there are professionals to run the show. It seems at first glance there is the willingness demonstrated by the HC hire and COC.

Does any of this guarantee success? Of course not. But now more than ever, IMHO, it is unlikely history will repeat itself in a similar fashion of the past 20 years. Bottom line? Now we have to win.

It won't change the fans reaction if we don't have immediate success. While it may not be the majority of the fan base, we all know the squeky wheel gets greased first.

History may not dictate the outcome of the teams success, but it will dictate to how the fan base will react if the situation isn't favorable in season one of the new HC and staff.

Hopefully it's moot. There's no reason not to have success on some level. The talent is there, and should get better. The QB is good with a fundamental drive to win. Freddie has a leg up because the bar is so low and the ceiling is so high.

The bar was so low. It's not nearly as low this year, in fact it's much higher. Freddie had a leg up on getting the job, now that he has it, he has to stand on his own two feet and succeed. We all know how long that lasts in the NFL, let alone Cleveland. A 2-3 start and you'd hear rumblings around these parts unless he just flat-out looks the part. While the upside is so exciting, we can't forget how ugly the down side can become. People expect some magic from the dynamic duo next year, if they don't get it right away, well... you know.

I certainly agree! Yet we won five out of the last seven games and we read how some people not only hope for the playoffs, but expect them. That doesn't sound like some are setting that low bar you mentioned.

I'm excited and optimistic about the direction we're headed in. But I'm one who can understand that sometimes you can take two steps forward and one step back. I'm not so sure that many can do that.

Oddly enough, I have not read the article yet. A lot of friends pointed me to it, and of course it is being discussed at various levels here. I think maybe I saw it as dredging up the dysfunctional past because things seems to going much better now and that is not newsworthy.

Kind of like when I don't piss my wife off for a couple of days she will dig something out from the past so she has something to yell about.

But, I will get around to reading it soon.

Imagine calling players like Joe Thomas, Myles Garrett, Duke Johnson, Christian Kirksey, Joel Bitonio, Jason McCourty, Carl Nassib, JC Tretter, Joe Schobert, Kevin Zeitler, Emmanuel Ogbah, Larry Ogunjobi, Jabril Peppers, Jamie Collins, Isaiah Crowell, Briean Boddy-Calhoun, Josh Gordon, Derrick Kindred, David Njoku, Deshone Kizer, Rashard Higgins, Trevon Coley, James Burgess talentless and then thinking that's the reason why the Browns couldn't win a game.

Fan reaction never changes when losing. Not here, not anywhere.

Outside of inserting Kizer in there, I'd agree with you.

Kizer did get us Randall. Other than that ... bleh.

Talent certainly wasn't the sole reason. As a fan I've felt more than once that a loss came down to scheme or willingness to win. Not having a QB looms large as a reason also. But in some cases, we simply got our asses kicked because we allowed it to happen. There was little drive to win. Whether due to culture, coaching, talent, attitude or what, who knows? But we stunk because we stunk. Pick your own reasons. There are plenty to chose from.

IMAGINE not being able to comprehend that Hue and Sashi could and did BOTH STINK ...

IMAGINE talking about a roster WITHOUT mentioning the QB position when pointing out how bad a coach is .. and HUE STUNK the menZas will turn that into me sticking up for Hue cause that’s how they roll ..

IMAGINE what Bill Bilichecks record would have been with the QB rooms Sashi built ...

IMAGINE thinking a man could build a team when 13 of his 24 draft picks that span 2 years are no longer with the team and that # will more than likely rise to AT LEAST 16 before next season starts ...

IMAGINE thinking a man can build a team PASSING ON 3 FRANCHISE QB’S ...

IMAGINE 0 + 0 = 0 being complex math ...

IMAGINE not knowing when to either admit your wrong or at least not knowing to just keep your yap shut cause your defending the INDEFENSIBLE ...

IMAGINE not being the best damm bartender EVER and running the bars and lounges on the Isle ...

That was a FUN GAME ... wonder what games next ....

Imagine entering a conversation not know what's being discussed and then acting like you know and looking foolish...


And yes, that was great fun!

I just lol'd so loud at work that I was reported to HR, considered a workplace disturbance, and now they're having a meeting about me.

Does not surprise me at all...lol I'll leave it at that and let you and others bicker. But your statement is a perfect example...ooops well I'll do what I said and leave it at that. smh

Yet some of those players are already gone and as has been noted, we sucked at the skill positions.

This is my concern.

We can assume he’s forever changed, resigned himself to a Lerner-esque role, and that our competent front office controls the operation of the Cleveland Browns, but it’s still an assumption. It is an assumption that is currently supported by some evidence (changing reporting structure, stepping away from the spotlight), but it is also evidence from the brightest period of his ownership tenure.

What does long-term success look like for Haslam, though? What happens when the current regime hits a roadblock?

For example, Dorsey spent 22 years in the personnel department of the Green Bay Packers, which operated as one of the model NFL franchises. During that time, he had two Hall of Fame quarterbacks and worked alongside some all-star talent evaluators. Still, they missed the playoffs seven times. In fact, they had two-year postseason droughts on three separate occasions. And they lost their first playoff game five more times.

How will Haslam react once he’s had a taste of success? Will it reinforce his restraint, or will his more controlling instincts come to the fore?

We just don’t know.

And we won’t know until it happens.

But I think it’s a fair cause for concern.

Just because they're gone, doesn't mean it was the right decision. In some cases, yes. In others, no.

If we went by your logic, we're estatic Schwartz, Mack, TJ Ward, Sheard, etc. were let go at the time.

Which great skill position players that were let go were a mistake? Corey Coleman? Josh Gordon? The Crow? Any of our QB's from last year?

I'm just curious because we actually have skill players that produce now.

Ah ha! I love how your argument shifts. I think we have added players at skill positions, namely at the QB position. And you see how that amplifies the talent that was already here. If you're argument is now going to be we had talent, just not at many skill positions, I probably would have agreed. But you didn't.....you went the 30 player roster turnover is the main reason why we're successful and the "no real" players route.

Just look at your sig.

My sig. is a quote by Dorsey. Looks like he agrees with me. That's what he saw when he came here and that's why 30 players are gone. And that's just in his first season.

I can google you an address to e-mail him about it if you like.

three thoughts. First I think Dorsey walked back that statement a little later. I do not have a citation for that but that is my memory. Second, I think it is perfectly reasonable to say John Dorsey has done a great job!! He is the guy that is making us a force again. I think it is also perfectly reasonable to say sashi did not do that terrible a job of player acquisition. Toad all the turnover, I think 10 of our 22 starters were acquired or resigned by sashi and I will be shocked if next season 9 of those 10 are still starting.

For those who think you have to love one and hate the other I just do not buy it.

I just wanted to say that this season we completely replaced our QB room, replaced all but one WR, all but one RB, and all but 3 OL. We did keep 2 TE. By my count, the defense did better, with us keeping 4 DL, 3 LB, and 4 DB.

By the end of the season, players not acquired by Dorsey, who were still starting, were

QB - 0
RB - 0 (Though Duke was a key backup)
WR - 0 (Though Higgins was a key backup)
TE - 1 (DeValve was a backup)
OL - 3

DL -4
LB - 2 (Kirksey IR)
DB - 1 (Kindred and Boddy-Calhoun were key backups)

I could see Bitonio, Tretter, and Zeittler all starting, and Njoku did come on at the end of the season.

On defense, I can see Garrett, Ogunjobi, and maybe Ogbah all staring on the DL, depending on how the new DC uses them. I think that Schobert and Peppers also stand a chance of starting. Kirksey was a starter, and is on IR. I suppose that's 10.

I am curious as to which 9 of these 10 you think will be replaced? There does come a time for adding, not just subtracting everyone, and I think we're here. Would it surprise me to see 2 or 3 starters bumped down the food chain? Probably not. 8 starters being demoted or cut, on a team expecting to contend for the playoffs? I have a hard time seeing that.

Almost NOBODY had an excitement level at all about Higgins or Perriman before the season... a lot of people were down on Calloway for underachieving and thought Njoku was on his way to being a bust with the dropsies..

Now, for some reason, people are talking about how long most of their contract extensions should be... funny how having a QB does that.

I would even add Crow to that list.. I think Chubb is better mind you but it's not like Crow was horrible and if he had a passing game and some flow to the offense I'm pretty sure he could have been more than adequate.

This perception of a total lack of talent at the skill positions was driven by poor QB play and poor offensive schemes and play calling... Fix those 2 things and suddenly all of the players nobody cared about seem to have gotten magically better.

As well as being driven by a HC who kept waiting for “better players” before he could start doing what he was hired to do. When you don’t have faith in your people it still shows through, even on a subconscious level. It’s one of the, if not THE lamest excuse I’ve ever heard in pro
Sports.

Did you just click me or are you asking me those questions? If so, I am not sure what I said that would trigger questions like that?

Sorry Peen, I think I quick replied.

I figured....all's cool my friend.

Before I respond to your post, I want to remind posters that both Sashi and Hue were fired and they aren't coming back. I also don't think anyone is going to change their mind on things that have been posted thousands of times. That number is not a hyperbole. Meanwhile, Haslam still owns the team and the article contained a lot of information to ponder if one wants to take his mind off the same old tired-ass agenda line of thinking.

Niolen, you brought up something I really didn't consider. I have been worried about what will Haslam do if the team is not meeting the lofty expectations that many have for next season. However, you brought up a similar question of how will he react if the team has some success. Will it reinforce his recent restraints or will he resort to past practices?

I think this is the interesting conversation and the Sashi/Hue crap is lame. Both guys are gone and are unemployed. Stop thumping your chests and put the millimeter tape measures away.

I have two questions for the board.

1. How confident are you that Haslam is going to stay out of the way if the team struggles next year?

2. How confident are you that he will stay out of the way if the team has some success and we start getting a lot of attention?

I don't consider Haslam in that sense, so I am not all that worried about it.


That's to say, why worry about it now?

My question is, what can we do to change it? The answer is nothing.


I can't buy the team from them and run it my way, so questioning their way is moot.


Sure, we can give up our seats, then 10 others will step in to buy them. Me.....I will keep mine until I die.


I am a PROUD season ticket holder. I don't bail on my team because they aren't winning.

Why worry about it now?

Why worry about Sashi and Hue now? LMAO They're gone.

I guess it is okay to talk about guys who are gone, but not about a guy who is still here. This board never ceases to amaze me.

I don't worry about them.



I agree, they are gone.


Why still worry about it?


Time to move on my man and renew a friendship.

I'm not sure about what is being said about Toad or the 9 out of 10 not being starters next year, but I agree otherwise.

And I don't really see any Sashi lovers and Dorsey haters, it's more of the other way around.

I don't think anyone is really worried about it, I just think some wanted to point out the hypocrisy of some of the arguments made around here.

I think we’ll be fine either way ... why u may ask ,,, *L* ...

As u well know i am no fan of the thief as a human being or an owner .. he’s been the WORST OWNER in the history of sports ... the record over the last 3 years SEALED IT for now .. and its not like the first 3 or 4 years of his produced anything but UTTER CRAP on the field or in the win column ...i’m not gonna re-hash the whole thing ...

I firmly believe when he hired Sashi and Hue and gave them 5 years he was going to stick to it ... PERIOD ... i don’t think they could have produced bad enough results to get fired before year 5 was over .. IMO he had BOXED HIMSELF IN TO THAT ... he had went through Coaching staffs and FO’s like toilet paper ... Chud/Banner lasted a year ... Pett/Farmer lasted two ... in his first 3 years he had hired and fired two coaches and 2 FO’s ... i give him a pass on Shurmer as he was a holdover ..

MAYBE .... JUST MAYBE they could have got fired after 4 years .. but IMO he had to give them that time ... like i said .. i think he BOXED HIMSELF IN and he would have never been able to hire another HC ... plus i think the egotistical jackass thought he was going to change the NFL and prove he was the smartest owner ever by revolutionizing football and doing it with analytics and non football people ...

I think the bye week witch i now dub the DEBACLE AT THE FACTORY OF SADNESS forced him too fire at least one of them .. Hue left him no choice (not a shot at Hue .. IT WAS DOOMED TO FAIL .. how could it not ... Sashi BROUGHT ZERO CRED TO THE JOB and having TRUST in your GM is huge ... that failing was a NO-BRAINER ... Sashi was and still is the DUMBEST HIRE IN THE HISTORY OF SPORTS IMO)

I think Hue kept his job cause the thief didn’t want to fire both of them ...

For that reason ... and the fact DORSEY HAS EARNED HIS TRUST ...

I think Freddie and his staff will get a FAIR SHOT and the thief will stay the hell out of the way .. LIKE HE SHOULD ...

It was very telling IMO when he wasn’t on the stage when Freddie was announced at HC .. i also think the fact he’s finally used a COMMON SENSE ORG. CHART and has Freddie reporting to King John is another sign ...

I could be way off base ... wouldn’t be the first time ... BUT I FEEL PRETY GOOD ABOUT THAT ...

Thats my story and i’m sticking to it ...

Happy Hue Jackson Day, Diam! Cheers mate!

Baker was asked if he'd read the ESPN article during his Super Bowl rounds. He said "No," he heard it was a long read (lol), and it's all in the past...he was just concentrating on the future.

Love this kid.

If YOU would stop bringing up Sashi's name going forward, that would represent a 75+% decrease in the number of times his name is brought up...maybe 90+%.

Just post your thoughts...stop with the preambles...it looks like posturing and agenda. Make your point and move on.

Dude, shut up. I wasn't even posting on this thread and it was all about Hue and Sashi.

Btw--I won't respond to anything else you say, so have at it.

Those are two very good points and I was happy when I read about them. It's a very positive sign. And you very well could be right that he will stay out of the way.

However, I can't help this gnawing feeling that Haslam will forcefully reinsert himself should the team not live up to the lofty expectations that so many have for them.

Haslam is going to be right there if we start the season 0-1. He's not going anywhere. Browns fans should be terrified. Some of us hold out hope that things will be ok now, but you have to wonder....

I understand some think we are still a year away, but we are in win now mode. It's a very exciting time. Probably a tune for another thread but I'm excited to have 3 or 4 primetime games and to see where they fall and against whom.

Browns have one of the league's easiest schedules for 2019. Barring major injury, if we do not make the playoffs we should all be very worried.

I think the point about the schedule is a good one. It appears to be very favorable. I'm praying that the stars are finally aligned for the Browns. I'm running out of time.

I just saw a graphic yesterday that Goff has reached the super bowl quicker than any other QB selected with the #1 overall pick. I say let's break that record next year and shock the world.

But that might just be me drunk. On the Isle. Ive been recruited as a bartender on the isle.

LOL

I'm hoping I'll need the help this upcoming season!

This might just be blind optimism/hope talking... but I've decided that Haslam has learned his lesson. I think something really has to blow up (something along the lines of a suspension/fine for a GM texting a coach on the sidelines during a game) in order for Haslam to feel like he has to insert himself again.

J/C

our team didn't get more talent after the Pittsburgh game. It didn't. WE got rid of hue, and we started winning football games.

IF that doesn't stand out to some of you, then IDK what else will.

You cant say hue didn't have any talent, because he had the same team that Gregg and Freddie had. one set of coaches won games, one did not. plain and simple. Hue is gone, sashi is gone.

But I do know that Sashi is not credited with yesterday, happy post Hue Jackson day - 1-31

Freddie is our coach now, and I am thrilled.

Baker is our QB and I am thrilled.

Haslam seems to have learn to let others lead.

Its a new day

I think Haslam's decision to keep Hue to keep Continuity is proof of the pudding so to say. He is committed now as he had most of the say in these hires to commit to continuity. 1-31 and he kept the HC safe.

Yes the possibility of not living up to expectations is possible and losing does bring a demeanor to an organization. Will we go scrambling - not the first year but if Kitchens produces just 4 win seasons for TWO seasons I can see the unrest as a possibility or more so a probability. But quite frankly I think that is only possible if Baker gets hurt. But still we are close to having a dominating defense that can change a lot of things.

So I think it is Obvious Haslam is more apt now to stay on course then to react quickly and OVER REACT...My goodness if keeping Hue on board after 1-31 doesn't say something. Not saying he was correct in doing so...but that should prove that this is not the search finding Haslam of his first couple of years.

He inherited Holmgren, He then had some serious PILOT issues that he personally had to attend to. So he put all under the wing of BANNER, when he came back he saw a lot of POWER stuff going on I think Banner even tried to garnish more power than Haslam himself. Well it seemed to me when Haslam came back from his Pilot stuff, he had no need for Banner and it was not working so he cleared house again. Farmer was a mess in the Personnel department, supposedly not the one who picked certain players but still when he said he was taking over it didn't get that much better, a little but not much. Enter Sashi and Hue. They decided to totally dismantle the Browns like no other team ever did before. But Haslam knew about it and understood that is why he wanted to continue with HUE, I thought that was a very good decision and was proud of Haslam. I do think Hue started to lose the team as we continued to lose games...oh so close but lose never the less. Hue also was not Dorsey's guy, he didn't cause trouble or have power moves with Hue but I don't think he ever believed in Hue on being a Super Star HC to carry this team out of the bowels of mediocrity.

So the Football guy with great success and experience as a GM the first one WE EVER HAD, Is finishing the build up as he did over do the FO and Personnel staff. Now he is or has picked his choice to make this all happen. Keep in mind it also was the first time that the Browns were the most attractive coaching situation. So much so that we had our pick of HC rather than going with 2nd or 3rd choice.

Jmho I think I left out the Pettine era but that was a choice that was I think our 5th or something and sadly it was never there to succeed.

This is actually a very good point... There is hope.

Also...

I wonder if the Pilot stuff, as you say, led him to be more hands on here? It was said when he started he was only here once a week or so... Perhaps he started to worry about the Pilot stuff and tried to distance himself and wanted to desperately turn this team around so that it would "look good" on him. Thus thrusting himself into the daily operations and meddling as he has...


Just a thought...

He could not spend the time that he wanted that is why he gave all the power to Banner there was actual confusion with people thinking that Banner was a part owner (I think 5% was mentioned) cause he has so much power. It was because Haslam had to fight for his family business first and foremost. So he left it up to Banner. Yes, when that was basically over, he wanted control back, I think there was some hesitation from Banner on that and I think because of the record, Haslam thought nothing of getting rid of them all and start over. Its a shame that we had some pretty good coaches with us at the time. Not much talent cause we were still missing on almost all our moves for talent.

But Haslam just said get rid of them...of course Banner stayed but when we couldn't get our 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th choice of HC, Haslam was - why do I even need Banner. And he got rid of him and his side kick Lombardi as well. Petine was the HC but being like the 5th choice he was destined to be just a temp.

I don't blame Haslam too much I know he said we have to become an organization that was stable and with continuity (Like the Steelers) but just because it was not the right group, and because of our reputation as an organization. We couldn't get the right combo. Dorsey was the first Football guy that we got here unless anyone wishes to claim Holmgren was the first, he actually came here with the reputation but he seemed to be on a vacation and didn't care about the Browns. Or he was just plain old INCOMPETENT.

But Dorsey was the first. Not Clark, not Nobody under Butch, Savage had Personnel background but not GM experience.
Not Kokinos who never got off the ground and was fired mid season in his first year, poor Mangini.
I thought Heckert was the first who actually resembled a GM but there was never a proper organization established cause he had a Czar ahead of him. Lombardi and then Farmer Lombardi was just a yes guy for BB. But Lombardi didn't have any control anyways because of BANNER. We had a repeating condition here. Who was in charge??? If there wasn't there was a fight for Power, If there was it wasn't the GM but an Overlord,

I think Sashi was the first with complete control...he just didn't have the experience but he did a good job in the decision to make this team great once more and then we got Dorsey the first and only GM that has the control and has the experience to run a team run the personnel department. I knew he was the guy when he decided to keep on DePodesta and ustilize analytics as a tool as even though he was OLD SCHOOL he also was smart enough to know there are some knew things to take advantage of and why not have the BEST at it. To me that told me a lot about Dorsey and his Goal and not EGO was running the show. He inherited Hue, when the owner wanted continuity Dorsey didn't hesitate he said ok lets go with it. After getting a hands on feel on what Hue was bringing to the table and the continuation of losses - he knew Hue was not the one and made his decision. If he did not do the Interim thing he still would have fired Hue. But he would not have even known who Kitchens was as and we would be not taking the route that we are going with now. So good things I think is happening to Dorsey or he is just that good at his job. Doing the right thing at the right time.

I'm of course Optimistic with Kitchens. We have a very good staff on this team. Got some important pieces, now get the rest and there still is continuity on this team so that we will not have too much transition. Defense always transitions fast. Hopefully the Offense can win some games in the beginning. But once the D kicks in we should do well.

jmho

Right. I was thinking more along the lines of the Pilot/Flying J stuff is still unresolved.


I actually liked Mangini and I think he was one who had a lot of control when he was here. But he needed help and hired Kokinis. Kokinis was hired after the draft I believe... it's been a while.


Anyway, here's an interesting read about Kokinis and Dorsey that I found...


Article

j/c:

I encourage to revisit the original article because some things are being twisted.

I encourage you to quit telling people what to do or post and say what you have to say. It's a message board...not an 8th grade cheerleader tryout.

I think the Haslam's are learning. They've made mistakes, but they've been different mistakes for the most part rather than the same one over and over again. They've tried different things with the HC (OC vs DC). They've tried different kinds of GMs ("football" vs "cap" guy). Hopefully they've figured out that they need all of it, but the most important part is everybody being on the same page and working together.

Let people do what they are good at. If you hire a guy to add talent to the team, actually let him pick the players. Don't blame people for problems, work together to fix them. I'm definitely sick of the blame game.

I'm cautiously optimistic. Freddie seems to be a good consensus builder. Dorsey seems to be a good evaluator. Haslam seems to have let/be letting Dorsey pick the players without interjecting. He has been good about upgrading the facilities. I'm hoping they can all keep their egos to the side and work together- deferring to expertise, but not disregarding others' input. Haslam and Dorsey both strike me as people who don't like to compromise/once they decide on something no one will talk them out of it. Hopefully they can all work well together before they make their minds up.

I like your post and it is very reasonable. I do disagree w/the point about the Haslams not making the same mistakes over and over again.

I said Haslams because you did, but I don't blame Dee. She seems more level-headed and rational than Jimmy does. I think Jimmy has repeated the same mistakes over and over.

I think the article made the quite clear. He creates an atmosphere [albeit not intentionally] that pits people against one another. The one constant is that each regime has been dysfunctional and I believe that Jimmy is at the center of that.

I'm not arguing w/you. Just conversing. Trying to move past the crap that WSU is trying to create.

My goodness...just say what you have to say and leave the drama out of it.

We're good.

The same underlying mistake perhaps, but in his mind at least I think he's trying not to repeat the same mistakes. Hopefully he caught the underlying issue this time, and it's the one that is being corrected. ...One of the ones... Early indications seem encouraging.

As far as Dee, I get the sense that she points and Jimmy acts. Could just be her TV background. I imagine her directing the scene. Maybe it's just because Jimmy seems like a caricature/he's over-acting at times. I don't know the exact dynamic.

But, she's involved enough that she gets to share the "credit." It's all guesswork on my part on how much either of them are involved behind the scenes. She's mentioned here and there in articles as being "more involved." What that "more" is comparing hasn't been made clear to me.

We are both speculating, but I think your take is sound. Hopefully, other members of the board will add to what we're talking about.

IMO, the core issue was the reporting structure. Analogous to a pair of magnets: when put together incorrectly, they repel, but when done properly, they attract and come together as one...

to answer your question, versatile, this is how I think it will play out. I think Jimmie h is a very smart guy. He is a driven type a personality who has been very successful along the way by being a highly involved micromanager. it has worked for him ......until now. I think he came in as owner and began to employ the same tactics that worked for him in the business world and nothing worked for him.

Jimmie was impatient for positive results so if he did not get quick results he swooped in and made changes. He hired coaches and fired coaches. He hired gms and fired gms. He hired team presidents and fired team presidents. and yet the losing continued. He got so frustrated that he went with a radically different concept with sashi and depo. IMO they were instructed to tear it down and then build it back up.

what Jimmie did was radically different. We are starting to see the fruits of it but they never envisioned 1-31. Never. So once again he jumped in and made changes. Finally the football gods smiled upon us and we got Dorsey and a slew of other quality football guys and we saw some success fairly quickly.

I guess that was a lot of talk leading to this. If we continue to progress Jimmie will sit back and enjoy the ride, with a big smile on his face. side thought. I can remember early on in jimmies time here the camera going to him in the owner’s box as we blew or lost another game. The anger and frustration were visible in his face and body language. He wants to be smiling and laughing after games and if Dorsey gives him that he can write his own check.

If things go south early on i think Jimmie will give Dorsey way more time than previous guys just because we have enough parts in place to always be respectable. we won’t be 1-31, we will be competitive so Dorsey will be given time.

I know he gets lots of grief but I love having Jimmie as our owner. I want my owner to live and die with the browns on the field. I like that he is angry when we lose. Jimmie made a lot of mistakes but they were errors of caring too much. I am ok with that but I am glad that he seems to have made a good call with our gm and happier days are coming.

Sorry for the length of the response.

I share the same sentiments about Jimmy. He's no dummy. I think he is hell-bent on doing things his way until someone PROVES to him that there is a better way. How many people - me included - act the same way?

Every team in the NFL for every season since Jimmy bought the Browns has failed to reach their ultimate goal of winning the Super Bowl except for the Ravens, Patriots, Broncos & Eagles. Our failures have certainly been more excruciating and soul-crushing than pretty much every other failing team...but there is reason to believe that we are on the right track and will go that route for awhile and see how it works out.

Yeah, encouraging people to do something is telling them what to do.



I hope I said what I had to say clearly enough to meet your requirements.

Just curious ... how does building a TRUCK STOP business in any way qualify u too be INVOVLED IN FOOTBALL DECISIONS ... rhe BEST OWNERS .. the ones that CONSITENTLY WIN are the ones that hire here football people and let them do THEIR JOBS ..

The thief is a smart man .. hell he got away with STEALING MILLIONS over many years from truck stop owners all over whatever parts of the country he operated in . No dummy gets away with that ...

BUT IF HE WAS SO SMART ... why would he not look at the ORG.S THAT WIN AND SEE HOW THEY DO IT ... crap .. to this day i wonder what the hell he learned from Pit ... IT CERTAINLY WASN’T TO KNOW HIS PLACE ..

WE STUNK CAUSE he made HORRIFICK HIRES ... then he tried to prove how smart he was and CHANGE HOW FOOTBALL TEAMS ARE OPERATED by hiring a LAWYER with ZERO FOOTBALL EXPERIENCE to be in charge of the ROSTER and aquiring talent ..

How is that smart bro? .. ITS ASSININE ...

Let’s see .. here’s how all the WINNING ORG’S DO IT ... but u know what .. I’M SMARTER THAN THEM cause i know the truck stop business like the back of my hand .

Your “LOGIC” here is SEVERLY FLAWED ...

U guys can spin it any way u want .. we just came off the WORST 3 YEAR RUN IN SPORTS HISTORY and what did we lose to close the season before that one .. OUR LAST 6, 7 OR 8!!!!!

He SUCKED ... WORST OWNER IN THE HISTORY OF SPORTS and u guys are gonna tell me he had a CLUE... gimme a break ... he is SMART but it appears he has no COMMON or at least BUSINESS SENSE when it comes to football ..

The STARS ALIGNED for this bafoon and were all the benificaries of it ..

U look in the dictionary under the phrase ... I’d rather be luck than good ... and his is the very first picture in that definition ...

You would think that having been a minority owner of the Steelers and watching the Rooneys he would know that.

Marketing a product that you're already being supplied with has nothing, and I mean nothing to do with building a winning product. In his opening presser he mentioned marketing several times, but not team building. Why? Because marketing is what he had done.

I've said this from the very beginning.

What DOES qualify a person to own a NFL team other than having a crap-ton of money? He had some small ownership of the Steelers and is worth billions of dollars. If that doesn't "qualify" a guy, I don't know what does.

However, just because he qualified, that doesn't guarantee that he knows what to do once he's the owner.

You can't blast him for the past years of poor decisions without giving him credit on hiring Dorsey and canning Hue. He's trending up...in a world of "What have you done for me lately?" there is reason for optimism.

J/c

I may be opening a can of worms here, but I don't think Hue is necessarily a bad coach. I do think he never really bought into the plan despite saying he was on board when trying to get the job. We ended up with too many factions, and too much time wasted trying to cover one's own... behind and placing blame elsewhere.

Hopefully we'll have the real "one team, one direction" deal this go round. The fact that Dorsey and Kitchens have actually worked together should have both going in with their eyes wide open.

A billionaire that has actually had some experience in building a product that has gained popularity and success would be a better fit. Not that it's an easy thing to see happen. You are right that it's a very small amount of people within a pool that has the finances to ever become an NFL owner and finding "the prefect fit" to do so is highly unlikely.

On the other hand, when Haslam bought the team it seemed many felt that "just because he was a billionaire", that equated to him being a successful owner here.

I on the other hand, felt since his fame and fortune pretty much came for being a successful marketer had nothing to do with building a winning product on the field. The two were different as night and day.

Businesses are very different and success is achieved by different models. Much like someone who runs a family business isn't used to working with having to negotiate and work within the corporate or government structure, Those are vastly different things that work entirely different.

A smart person can grow into a changing role over time. They can learn to adapt and succeed in differing environments. Yet at the same time there is a learning curve that means it's not a quick fix or easy transition.

I think that's what we are beginning to see here and I certainly hope that trend continues. But my warning when he arrived and the length of time it has taken to see the progress we are seeing now I believe goes to show that we need to learn to temper our expectation and not rush to the conclusion that just because someone is extremely wealthy means they will automatically succeed in a much different environment.

I'm not really sure he understood what the entire plan was when he took the job. And yes, the can of worms has been opened.

You keep saying building a product. His travel centers are/were the product. He took them above and beyond a truckstop.

I have been stopping at them years before Haslam bought the team. A product doesn't have to be something you can put in your hand. A vision you carry out is a product.

Clem is a musician. His product is fine music.

Hue has had some success at coaching positions below the head coach level. As a head coach, he is a back-stabbing cancer. Mayfield has recently pinned the early season, team dysfunction on Hue.

Hue took over the Raider HC job for Tom Cable after serving one year as OC for Cable...Cable got fired and Hue stepped in. Shocker. The new Raider GM canned Hue after one full year...he saw through the fake.

We know all too well of Hue's failures with the Browns. He couldn't or wouldn't fit an offense to help Kizer and he wouldn't let Mayfield take a snap with the 1st team...you know...Baker Mayfield...the guy who went on to break Peyton Manning's rookie TD record in three or so fewer games. He got his cohort fired once and his new cohort beat him to the punch.

Hue is a decent soldier - not a trustworthy one mind you - but he's no General.

The product if the fuel. Everything else is marketing. Do I really need me to go back and quote his comments about marketing and how he praised consistently changing marketing practices at Pilot and how important marketing is? Do you remember, "It's a marketing world" in that presser too?

I agree that Jimmy's best attribute is Marketing. However, the Pilot product is not the fuel. You can get fuel anywhere.

The Pilot stores required vision. They serve both the trucker and the car traveler. They are a clean place for truckers to get a shower and some decent food. He saw a demand that was going un-served and was growing anyway - that being the number of trucks on the road today.

You can get food, drink, fuel and darn near anything else a traveler could find themselves wanting. It was a ridiculously simple idea that stared everyone else in the face...but he's the one who saw it.

I wish Clem owned the Browns.

You can get fuel anywhere. It's the people that can add to it and market it the best that succeed at selling a product provided to them. There are several brands that aslo do exactly what you are describing. It's not a novel idea.

Unless you're suggesting that not anyone can sell soda, coffee and put food into a fuel center. All of which is a product provided to market.

Unless you honestly believe that putting a truck stop and a gas station together under one roof is some revolutionary idea, I don't see your point.

I live in Tennessee and do business with Pilot Flying J. But it's because Haslam owns the Browns. Speedway would work just as well. Speedway also combines truck stops with gas stations at several locations.

Kleenex and Xerox (copies) go hand-in-hand with Pilot/Flying J (fuel centers). You have to give credit to the guy who invented the idea. That goes beyond marketing...but it was marketing that enhanced the vision.

Enhancement is the perfect word. Like building the fan experience, changing the uniform and the game day experience. Problem is nobody was providing the fuel (team).

I agree Willie .. its all about the money ... 100% .. that allows them to buy the team ... ok .. i’m Giggy with that ... its how capitalism works ...

GREAT ... we agree there .... now the SMART/GOOD OWNERS like Robert Kraft/Arthur Blanks/Jeffry Lurie (I dont consider the Rooney’s or Mara’s to be in this classs cause they’ve owned he team sfor a generation or two) ... Bill Allen was another one ...

They buy there teams hire there football guys and get the hell out of the way ... then u have guys like Jerry Jones who is in a class by himself .. he’s there GM .. he’s even worse than the THIEF WAS ... that moron did the right thing out of the gate with JJ and then got butt hurt he didn’t get enough credit and FIRED JJ AND TOOK OVER ... what have they done since? .. he hired the Tuna and gave him full control and the tuna made them good again but Jones couldn’t keep his nose out of it and drove the Tuna away ..

Dan Snyder was another one that came in thinking he knew to much ... they STUNK and no one wanted to go work there ..

ITS NOT THAT HARD WILLIE ... really it isn’t ... who did u emulate throughout your career ... guys that ACHIEVED or guys that STUNK? .. to me ... its COMMON SENSE ..

And what about our record since he’s been here ... crap .. he bought the team in 2012 in October ... between 2013 - 2017 we won 15 GAMES TOTAL .... let me repeat that ... in 5 years we won 15 games TOTAL ... capped off by the worst run in the history of sports ...

We won 4 games in 48 tries in 15,16 and 17 ... the longer he owned the team the WORSE WE GOT ... capped off by 0 wins in 2017 .. U KNOW HOW HARD THAT IS? ... that is a COLLOSIAL FAILURE on EVEY LEVEL!! ... it takes a special efforttto achieve that level of incompetence ...

He’s been the WORST OWNER IN THE HISTORY OF SPORTS SO FAR ... not even sure how close it is ... i know no one rivals him in football ...

And he's aged 10 years since buying and it's HIS OWN DAMN FAULT.

STAY OUT OF DORSEYS WAY,,HASLAM.

Would you have put Al Davis in with JJ?

And I like what Peen is saying, that Jimmy cares and is trying. In that regard I feel it could be worse. We could have someone like Mike Davis or Mike Brown... or Dan Snyder. I'd take Haslam over any of them.

For Jimmy, I just hope it's as simple as he hasn't had the GM and HC on the same page until hopefully now... I think this is the part that he underestimated when he became owner.

I don’t know what Al Davis was like in the beginning ... the last 10 - 15 years definelty .. he was senile then ...

I dont agree on mike Davis ... he hired gruden and its his org, now ...

I agree on brown ...

NONE OF THEM WERE EVER AS BAD AS THE THIEF HAS BEEN ..

U LOVE your numbers .... yet u IGNORE THE THIEF’S HISTORICALLY BAD RUN ..

15 wins in his first five full years as owner ...4 wins in a 3 year period and 1 win in a two year period and then the ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to achieve winless season ..

He made HORRIBLE HIRES and did things that MADE NO SENSE ... like hiring his HC before his GM ...

And NO ONE has ever brought in a LAWYER and a numbers guy from baseball with ONLY 1 SNOT NOSED FOOTBALL mind to run his personal department .. NO ONE ... the bafoon was going to revolutionize FOOTBALL ... ...

Your wasting your time here ... there is nothing u or anyone else can say that can REFUTE THOSE FACTS to me ...

Just like Sashi/Hue ... WAER UNDER THE BRIDGE ... WHO CARES ...

We have different opinions and thats fine ... one thing we agree on is the FUTURE IS BRIGHT as hell ...

Indeed. So that means that it appears Haslam has gotten it right.

Sometimes it takes time to get the right combination of people together and growth by the owners to get the train rolling down the tracks.

Nice try and an excellent attempt at spin Peenie ... ...

We got SO LUCKY ... SO SO LUCKY bro ...

His hire of Sashi was so bad he was FORCED TO FIRE either Hue or Sashi ... then thanks to Andy the OVERRATED ONE Reid King John was sitting there MID SEASON ...

Having a personal office with ONE SNOT NOSED FOOTBALL GUY in it along with a lawyer and baseball numbers guy tells me he didn’t even know there was a train as opposed to having trouble getting the train on the tracks .. ...

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile ... and we were WAY WAY WAY OVERDUE ...

Many times luck has as much to do with it as anything.

At any rate, Haslam seems to have gotten it right. That's a good thing.

j/c:

There is some talk that Haslam was unfortunate because he never had a GM and a HC who could work together. However, if you read the article closely enough, it's beyond apparent that Jimmy's handling of everyone in Berea nurtured an environment filled w/dissension and dysfunction.

Some claim that he has learned his lesson and rightfully point to how he wasn't on stage when Kitchens was announced as the HC and how the coaching staff will now report directly to Haslam. Those are indeed good signs and perhaps he has learned his lesson.

However, I am still hesitant to believe that Jimmy will stay out of the way if the team doesn't meet its lofty expectations in the immediate future.

We'll see...