DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus The Wall. An Honest Discussion.

this is the government we're talking about here. its gonna cost way more than whatever numbers is being put out.

its easy, $400 for a hammer, $10 per nail.

You are for border security our you not.


I say that I am.

I am for border security.

If border security MUST include Trump's stupid ass wall, then count me out. BUT I'm all for border security post 911, the kind of security that stops terror attacks not those fleeing for their lives.

I am for immigration reform which a border fence in areas it's needed would be a part of.

What I'm not for is allowing someone to tell me they're going to build a fence, not tell me the plan of how much they plan to build and what the total cost will be. Tell me this is only a down payment and risk him shutting down the government every time he wants another payment.

Once you start to pay extortion it never ends.

Some don't care how, where or the cost. They don't feel any real explanation of the entire plan is needed. To them, just yelling "build a wall" is some kind of an actual answer. I'm not one of "those people", if that's what you're asking.

If the President gave you a firm fixed number for what the wall was going to cost... and it was built close to that budget so they never had to come back and ask for more money, this might be the first time in history that a government program worked like that.

Some honest questions here. Do you honestly feel that some open ended funding of a border fence without a total immigration plan will solve anything or is a way to move forward? Do you feel giving Trump "a down payment" on a border fence without knowing what the final objective is makes a common sense approach to moving forward? Does it make sense that just last year he wanted 25 billion for a border fence yet know he's asking for 5.7 billion? Do you consider paying ransom to re-open the government won't set a precedent for him to repeat that process over and over again every time he wants funding for something or certain legislation passed?

jc…..

Personally, I think building a wall is basically building a monument to wasted tax money....

Will it discourage some ppl from trying to immigrate to The States, probably.

But I don't believe for a second that it will solve the problem of immigration. Mainly because the hard truth of the matter is this; If the people are desperate enough, if the people want it enough; then they are going to find a way in.


And as far as the cartels, and the movement of narcotics across the border....well, its a billion dollar industry, and the demand for the product is absolutely massive in this country......and so long as that demand exists (it always will), then the producers and traffickers will find a way to get the drugs in....wall or no wall......there is too much demand, and too much money to be made for any kind of physical barrier to stop the flow.....


And really, the wall is simply a billion dollar band-aid. It doesn't address any of the issues that fuel the drugs trade, and it doesn't address any of the issues that fuel the endless parade of South and Central American peoples flowing into our country....


Its a typical government move of throwing loads of money at a perceived problem that we have helped create, without taking into consideration any of the root causes for said problem.....


My solution, which would never fly, because ppl aren't able to look at the problem from any perspective that hasn't already been battered into their heads by American media...


I say, legitimize the drugs trade, and tax and regulate it. This would take the billions of dollars in drug profits flowing south, and turn those dollars into legitimate, taxable income....which could then be used by governments, and cartels-turned-corporations, to build infrastructure, provide social services, and raise the quality of life for all these countries as a whole.


With a blossoming quality of life, and growing, legitimate opportunities in these central American countries, I'm pretty darn certain that there would be a substantial drop in peoples fleeing north in search of a better life.


We could improve their lives, their economies, and their general welfare just by simply acknowledging that, much like alcohol, drugs prohibition hurts everyone and creates many more problems than it purportedly solves....



Unfortunately, people have been brainwashed their entire lives to think drug prohibition is necessary and a winning strategy......its been a failure......its turned central America into a war zone....and you can still go into nearly any American neighborhood and purchase narcotics.....its a sham, its always been a sham.....

people need to wake up and realize that spending billions on a wall is just wasting more money trying to prop up a foolish policy, utilizing impossible strategies.....trying to achieve something that will never, never, never, ever, ever, ever happen.


Just my .02...….I believe 100% that this is the most reasonable strategy to solve the problems that idiot politicians are theorizing that a wall will become a panacea.....just plain dumb....

I watched some of cspan this afternoon about the Senate vote today.

It was a bunch of blowhards who just wanted to hear themselves talk up their partys point of view and say "Something needs to be done"

But the sad part was that not one single one of them was willing to do anything but blabber on.

They dont give a rats ass.

True, but maybe they give a monkey’s ass?

They werent trying to work together at all.

I dont know how the Senate works, but if I were them, I'd make a committee made up of members from both parties. Lock them in a room until they come up with a solution. And then everybody has to agree with that.

Same like with juries in trials.

I agree with that. Government shutdown should equal automatic mass firings.

Only if the firings are limited to Senators who are unwilling to work together.

It just shows that it is not a "Government For The People" but simply a "Government For The Politicians".


They only care about themselves and staying in power, they have no concern for the average citizen working a regular job.

They will say and do whatever it takes to keep the citizens divided, which is the best way to ensure they maintain control and power.

And there it is!

I certainly agree with that. Yet at the same time I realize they are elected to represent heir constituents. We currently have a president who speaks on the most device terms one can imagine. In just the past few days he has decided to label the Dems as "radicals". We all know the connotations to radical Islamist's and what first comes to mind when that word is used.

We can blame congress or the senate if we like, but they're just giving us a first hand look at exactly how our citizens feel. The picture painted by their actions is an accurate representation of just how divided our populace is.

This could all be settled by putting these people back to work. The people that help secure our nation and help keep us safe are part of those being victimized here. TSA, the Coast Guard, and our border security agents are all included in those not being paid.

Holding those people as ransom and a part of an extortion scheme and claiming responsibility for it, and claiming your proud of that are all things Trump stated before this entire thing began.

At some point people have to assign blame where it belongs rather than keep moving the goal posts. At some point people need to start holding Trump accountable for the things he says and act accordingly. You can't have the president of The United state of America inciting and dividing our nation with his words and then say the senate and congress is to blame for where we are today.

The blame goes to the whole government, President included.

This is not the first shutdown, in fact it seems like it has become regular thing every 2-3 years lately.

As I have said elsewhere on these forums. Changes in the way the budget is debated and approved need to change, so that these "shutdowns" cannot happen.

Changes in all of our elected positions need to change, so that these types of decisions affect the decision makers. Right now, the vast majority of them feel no effect from the shutdowns, so there is no real push to solve the issue.

They use these events as a pawn in their game to keep us all at bay.

One thing seems totally different. In the past these shut downs are negotiated and ended quickly. This time, the venom coming from the president has trickled into every part of our government.

Agreed, both sides need to compromise at this point.

Dems had no reason to compromise, they were in the right and Trump was cornered. Chuck and Nancy are playing Trump like a fiddle. We'll have the MAGA crowd washing the feet of these immigrants before it's all said and done. JESUS STYLE!

Seriously though, it is time to fix the CR crap and keep the government open at all cost 100% of the time. We can find other things to leverage against each others political views. Dems are open to some fencing where experts say it will help, but they will never vote for a 'great trumpian wall' across the whole border... that's just stupid.

Here's the point that the Trump minions can't seem to grasp. Trump was in office for two years with a GOP majority in the house and senate. In those two years, he continually passed budgets that did not include wall funding.

Suddenly, once the Dems controlled congress, it becomes some national emergency. Overnight it became some crisis. If his followers can't see that all he did was try to paint a Democrat congress as some kind of boogeyman on an issue he's let slide for two years, they can't see the forest for the trees.

Exactly

I think there is some common ground when it comes to the terms of a coast to coast wall on the southern border. But it’s not Trump’s idea.....I’m pretty sure we have the tech to build a electronic aerial radar and underground sonar wall that could dispatch drones and troops to track illegals long before they cross the border.

Some congressman was on Meet the Press yesterday morning. to the question as to why republicans weren't able to get the wall funded even with a majority was because to do it, they'd have needed 60 votes in the senate. They apparently didn't have 60.

Is that a reasonable answer?

I would presume it is because not every republican, conservative, liberal, democrat, socialist, anarchist, communist thinks exactly the same as others in their party, and some people actually are willing to stick to their ideals and not just tow the party line.

Because as I've said many times before on these boards, not EVERYTHING a person says, can be, or should be, cast across everyone of the same party,race, religion, basket weaving group, etc.

Florida - I am not sure your point fits as a response.

Trump and the Republicans controlled the house and senate. If the Wall was a priority for TRUMP - he could have and should have passed the funding for it when the GOP could do so without any resistance.

Waiting for the Senate to be controlled by the Dems who are pretty much against the "Wall" as defined by Trump was foolish.

And while every person does not have to tow the party line - so far with Trump at the head - the GOP has exposed itself as being too weak to stand up and be willing to question some of the truly questionable things that have been done or transpired in the Trump WH.

I’s pretty apparent the shutdown was premeditated to stop the house from calling him out on the carpet. The wall was his excuse.

I think my response does fit, since he does not and never did have full backing from his party, therefore, even if he tried while they still controlled the house, which he did, he would not have gotten it passed.

“...he would not have gotten it passed.”

Maybe it’s because even the GOP congressmen know that the majority of those they represent don’t want it either. Maybe because they also know it’s a colossal waste of tax payer money.
Maybe trump should listen.
Instead he’s a petulant child and megalomaniac that cares not if he hurts millions of Americans for his disgusting vanity project.

If that's what you believe then this past shut down it 100% on Trump and is despicable. I personally think the GOP lambs would have got in line and done exactly what Trump bullied them into doing.

Maybe I am mis-interpreting your reply, but it seem like you think party's should all vote along party line.

Seems, the fact most believe a physical wall is not the answer, or at least not the whole answer, then not supporting such a concept would be what we as tax payers would want.

And it is nice that you think my beliefs legitimize blaming Trump 100%, that makes me feel special and apparently I hold way more power than even I knew. LOL

But ultimately I wasn't talking about the shutdown, as this thread is about the wall, and IMHO is more about border security than it is about a physical wall. Once we all come to an understanding, and agree it is about border security, we may be able to move past all the bickering and placing blame and work on solutions.

^^^This, right here.^^^

I have zero problem with seeing my tax dollars fund efforts like these. I'd happily pony up the cash for this type of policy.

I'd also like to see immigration courts streamline the process that allows legal immigration and grants asylum. The backlog is part of the illegal residency problem. When it takes the better share of a decade to jump through hundreds of arcane rules and regs, it's easy to see why folks simply give up and blend into society. Doesn't make what they do acceptable, but we could certainly reduce numbers of illegals by fixing the broken parts of the system. This, I'd happily pay out cashmunny to see, as well.

Just saw a spot on a news program this weekend wherein drug cartels are now using aerial drones to deliver 1 kilo bricks of 'H' to precise GPS-directed coordinates. This right here is why I'm opposed to spending any money on a wall. I've also seen El Chapo's tunnel system, solar-powered for light and ventilation, and imagine a wall looming above it.

There is merit to the idea of border security. I know of no American citizen who thinks border security is a bad idea. I simply prefer to see America's tax dollars spent on something a little more up-to-date than a medieval construct than can be defeated by a catapult.


.02

Yes, it's a communication problem to be sure. My main point was why is it now, after two years in office and after the Democrats were elected and control congress that Trump has suddenly decided to say this is a national emergency? Why now has he decided to call it a crisis and willing to shut down the government and make such a huge fight out of it? He didn't do that when the GOP was in charge. He waited for two years to make it a "crisis".

He had two years from 2016 until now until December of 2018 to do these exact same thing when Republicans controlled the house and the senate.

So what it really boils down to is he waited to pick a fight when the odds were even worse that he would get the funding. He wanted the fight to be between the Dems and the GOP to push the blame on the other party rather than fight with the Republicans.

So long as there is demand for narcotics in America, then producers in South and Central America, and even SE Asia, they will find a way to deliver because the money is so great......a wall is nothing more than a temporary obstacle that will cost much more than it would actually be worth---in terms of effectiveness..

And once again. So long as Central and South America remain effectively under the control of cartels whose earning outpace nearly every other legitimate form of occupation....than people will continue to flee towards America.....

I simply don't understand why ppl fail to see the root issues here, and cannot grasp the compromises needed to solve the problem...

j/c

Mexico Agrees to Pay for Trump’s Psychiatric Care

https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz...NrhHkcTUjKe4YoY

It's not a wall but it's a start.

I guess that's where you guys are losing me, I recall this wall being a thing since he took the Oath.

I thought I read something about it starting in his budget proposal back in 2017?

Edit: Here's what I recalled reading.

WASHINGTON — To secure the southern border — his top campaign promise — President Trump next year is seeking to hire 100 new government lawyers, add 1,500 law enforcement officials and spend more than $1 billion on detention and deportation, according to the White House budget plan released on Thursday.

The proposal, which includes a $2 billion down payment on Mr. Trump’s signature border wall, is one of the single largest investments in the president’s budget plan. Yet experts say it appears only to scratch the surface of what Mr. Trump has pledged, and highlights the difficulty of translating campaign promises into a workable, governing reality......

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/16/us/politics/donald-trump-border-wall-budget.html

So you don't see a difference between calling for the funding and shutting down the government for it? Because you're certainly right that he requested funding for the wall before. Yet it wasn't until the Democrats were taking over congress that he went on a media campaign calling it a crisis and threatening to call a national emergency in order to fund it. It was then he blamed the lack of funding on the Dems calling them "radical democrats".

It's an obvious political stunt and picking a fight with those of the other party when he couldn't even get the same thing passed when his party was in charge. Timing is everything and tells the real story here.

We’ve gone from conservatives chanting “Mexico will pay” to conservatives being ticked that the majority of Americans don’t want to fund the wall.

It’s crazy how easily some can be manipulated to say whatever their Fuhrer states.