DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Interesting take from ESPN on Haslam and the coaching search

I disagree. We've had terrible HC (or at minimum not prepared) in the form of Crennel, Mangini, Shurmur, Pettine, Chudzinski, and the great Hue Jackson. I mean this list alone is absolutely disgusting. Now the main issue for all of the GM of the past was not being able to find a franchise QB, but talent was able to be acquired with many past GMs. The issue has been for both coaches and GMs, the constant turnover and restarting of plans based on what they wanted to accomplish and the discord usually between the two roles.



I agree to a degree. Dorsey has gone a great job selecting players for this team, particularly where it comes to the draft. He has made some great decisions in that regard. Taking Mayfield when most people didn't like him and lazily compared him to Manziel, choosing Ward over Bradley Chubb (although perhaps the jury is still out on this one as both played well and Ward had 2 concussions on one season), and taking Nick Chubb as he has become one of the best RBs in the draft. However, Dorsey would not have been in his draft position unless it was from the decisions of the last regime. Without those moves, here is the Dorsey draft:

Rd 1- Baker Mayfield
Rd 2. Austin Corbett
Rd 3- (Traded for Tyrod Taylor)
Rd 4- (Traded w/ another pick from the last regime for Damarious Randall)
Rd 5- Genard Avery
Rd 6- Damion Ratley
Rd 7- ( I believe was used in a trade to get a late round pick this draft)

(I might very well be mixing picks up as was looking at all the deals made online)

You don't have Jarvis Landry (for all of the Landry truthers), Ward, Chubb, Calloway, Thomas, etc. They aren't on the team. But maybe if the situation was different and we didn't have the voluminous amount of picks that we did at the time, perhaps trades for Landry, Taylor, or Randall might not have happened due to scarcer draft resources. Now, with all that said, I think a legitimate argument could be made that the above draft can be considered a wild success if ONLY due to the fact that we're pretty sure we got our franchise QB. Something that all drafts have missed on in Cleveland since 1999. That, in itself, should warrant it a success.

My point is, this draft was set up beautifully for anyone that was going to run it. But, of course, the GM needed to hit on the picks. And so far, I think we can all agree that Dorsey hit on more picks than not and did a great job. But make no mistake, Dorsey got help in order to make the 2018 draft successful. There is zero doubt about that in my mind.

You really have to twist the argument to make your case. I think that's not a very solid place to have to debate from.

You think we've had good GM's?

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/draft.htm

The drafts and the players our GM's have selected says otherwise.

Picks in rounds 1-3 that jump out: Courtney Brown, Rahim Abdullah. Marquis Smith, Travis Prentice, JuJuan Dawson, Qunicy Morgan, James Jackson, (Gerard Warren #3 overall), Melvin Fowler, Chaun Thompson, Chris Crocker, Charlie Frye, Travis Wilson, Robiskie, Massaquoi, David Veikune, Hardesty, McCoy, Luavao, Phil Taylor Greg Little, Trent Richardson (another #3) Brandon Weedon, Mingo, McFadden, Justin Gilbert, Manziel, Danny Shelton as a #12, Cam Erving as a #19, Nate Orchard, Corey Coleman at #8 ......

Unscientifically it looks like we're getting "ok" players about 1 in 3 of those 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks. We got great players in the 1st round THREE timees in 19 years.

That is awful drafting. And it doesn't even include the beyond woeful free agents we brought to the team and paid top dollar for.

If you don't think the GM and the drafting and acquisition of talent was a big part of the problem.... I disagree strongly!

I will give Farmer a pass on Gilbert and Manziel as they were clearly Pettine and Haslam picks - tools, but keen eye for talent - not in my eyes.

Bitonio, Kirksey, and Duke were the only good picks he made in 2 drafts. Not trading Hoyer for a 2nd rounder - hmmmm.

Shelton and Erving in the 1st round in 2016 - awful.

Bottom line is this: If we had been better in 2016 and 2017, we probably would not have 2 cornerstones in Myles and Baker. If we hadn't made the somewhat innovative move of taking on Osweiller's contract, we wouldn't have Chubb. If we hadn't traded down with the Texans, (and got really lucky when their season tanked after Watson got hurt) we wouldn't have Ward.

There are a lot of bad things over the past few years that led to some pretty good things. You are right in that we had some pieces in place. The problem for Sashi Brown is that none of those pieces included a QB, CB, or even RB .... and only 1 WR.

However, he did assemble a nice interior of the OL. He did add Myles, Schobert, and Larry Ogunjobi. He did give us potential longer term pieces in Peppers, Kindred, Ogbah, Njoku, Boddy-Calhoun, and DeValve. None of these are slam dunks though .... but they could each be part of the future.

Sashi was a step in the process. Unfortunately, his 1st draft was not very good. Corey Coleman, Shon Coleman, Carl Nassib, Cody Kessler ..... add in Ogbah, and this (not in order) was the 1st 3 rounds of his 1st draft. (1 1st, 1 2nd, and 3 3rds) Because of this, his reign will be remembered as far below average. Accumulating draft picks is all well and good, but you have you hit on high picks. Unfortunately for Sashi, given the number of picks he manages to accumulate, there is little to show for his efforts.

How am I twistng an argument by saying I think our GMs have been better than our coaches. It's a flat out opinion.

And wait...why are you leaving out Mitchell Schwartz, Joe Thomas, Kameron Wimbley, D'Qwell Jackson, Eric Wright, Travis Benjamin, Jabaal Sheard, Joe Haden, TJ Ward, Myles Garrett, Jabrill Peppers, Emmanuel Ogbah, David Njoku, Christian Kirksey, Joel Bitonio, Duke Johnson?

What about mid-to-late round steals....I would think that should be included.

Cam Erving is on your list?? The guy that just got an extension and starts for the Chiefs? That Cam Irving?

Speaking of twisting an argument.

Don't get me wrong, there have absolutely been bad GM decisions for Cleveland and bad GM (namely, Mangini in the dual role and Banner at the top of the list)... But, *** psst, come closer*** whispers "They all have bad picks. All GMs, for all teams, in the history of GM-itude".

I submit that our talent over the years has been snuffed out by bad coaching and not having a franchise QB (which I concede, falls on GM). Look no further than this year as a case study.

Sashi did allow Schwartz, Gipson, and Benjamin to all leave ..... who could have each been re-signed. Mack also left, but I think he was gone no matter what.

As far as Cam Erving ..... sometimes a guy has to lose his job to understand how hard he has to work when someone else brings him in. Sometimes he just needs a different system. He was awful here, no matter where he played.

Look at Robinson for us this year. He was an absolute bust, who had most of us wondering why we brought him in, and why he made the final roster coming out of camp.

Heck, Desir was an effective starter in Indy .... but flopped here. Sometimes it just takes a guy a few extra years for the light to come all the way on.

Letting Schwartz walk was a big mistake by Sashi. I think most would say that. I agree with you about Mack...he had one foot out of the door when he signed that oddly structured contract with JAX. For me, although I referenced Benjamin as a good 3rd round pick in the post, I would not have paid him what SD did. Same goes for Gipson. Both guys aren't living up to their salaries. They were great value, 3rd rounder and UDFA, however.

I think this encapsulates a huge issue for GMs in Cleveland....either not taking the reigns of a draft, giving your HC too much of a voice/influence in the draft, or three, having an owner or CEO trump a GM.

That was the draft Farmer needed to seize control of his job and his future as Browns' GM. He needed to stand up in that draft room and say "No ... NO ... HELL NO!" to both those picks. As new GM and a recent hire, he held more capital than he would ever have again. Jimmy wasn't going to fire a GM he had just hired weeks before. Consensus is highly overrated because, as the saying goes, none of us is as dumb as all of us. Leadership means sometimes you have to go against the grain. At the worst, even if Jimmy had fired him right then, it was a hill worth dying on, because it ended up killing him anyway.

Yes, he did still have to make the decisions, which is where I gave him high praise. Please re-read the post if you missed that part.



What am I making up? Would Dorsey have been in the position to draft Ward, Chubb, Calloway if not for the picks accrued by the last regime? They used picks accrued by the last regime to trade for Randall, Taylor and Landry. This is correct, no? If I said something in error and got those picks wrong, I'm happy to retract it. I think I gave that disclaimer in the post you are responding to.

Agreed.

My take on you stacking the argument is that you were sort of focusing on the QB... Again - looking at the starting roster and the changes Dorsey made in 1 year - he did a remarkable job.

As for the draft picks and my list not including the good players? . . . My list was a pick of the bad / woeful players. I stated we had about 2/3 of the picks that were bad - meaning about 1/3 are ok-to good. I said we had 3 great picks.

In 19 drafts - 3 rounds - 57 players ... a blind monkey flinging poo at a draft board would have hit as many good picks as we had.

Sure we have had bad coaching and none worse than Hue ... but GM has been an equally bad situation for most of our history since 1999.

The Haslams didn't know what they didn't know. The best thing they could have learned from all the turmoil is to pick the right people and step away. Now all Dorsey & Freddie have to do is continue to add talent and win. Then none of the rest of it matters except in retrospect as being the pathway to success.

Right. I think they have grown in to the role. It's taken a lot of owners time to get it right.

They are still going to put their thumbprint on things from time to time but seem to have found trust in Dorsey.

Not merely trust but the success they've been seeking. In a single year Dorsey revamped the roster, the coaching staff, found the franchise QB, won more games than the past three years combined, an narrowly missed the playoffs. At this point, the Haslams dare not meddle too much lest they blow the flow. Dee probably realizes that while Jimmie is likely forced to accept it. Dorsey has the power now by virtue of the fact the Browns are trending upward. IMO, next year needs be an improvement over this year to reinforce in their minds they got it right. What the organization needs, now that they have leadership in place, a talented roster, and a franchise QB, is stability and consistency.

JMHO

J/C

I’ve skimmed a lot of the posts, so maybe someone pointed this out before, but one question I have is this: How do we know that Hue said, “Get the f...out of my office” if it was only Hue, Dorsey, and Halsam in said office? This is not a defense of Hue or anything other than how does the author get this quote if not from one of the three. Now if one of them related this quote to the author then I just missed it. It’s more of a curiosity than any point I’m trying to make.

I was about to throw in that Hue should count as 6 bad coaches, but then the more I thought about it, ownership has hurt the Browns more than anything.

Al got dealt a pretty crappy hand initially but I think he would have got it right with enough time. Randy's heart and mind really wasn't in it and Jimmy is a poor excuse for an Al Davis or a Jerry Jones

It's ownership that killed us more than anything. Now it looks like the current staff is all on the same page despite the owner and will win despite the owner.

Just thinking out loud.

If a player does not pan out but goes elsewhere and starts for that team is that a poor pick by the original GM or poor development on the part of the coaching staff?

This is just from my memory, so take it with a grain of salt and feel free to correct me if you know any of this to not be true.

I always thought that the NFL gave the Browns a raw deal by making a late decision on ownership. We had a very short window to hire a front office and coaching staff and as a consequence very little time to prepare for the expansion draft and the college draft.

Then I read somewhere that the NFL wanted us to start playing in 2000 but that Lerner was insistent that we start playing in 99'

Good question.

Hue?

"Isn't it Ironic, don't you think?" -Alanis Morissette

I don't think teams can acquire additional picks by being bad. As far as I know, anyway.

Your trying to have a rational discussion with posters that believe Sashi was an outstanding talent evaluator and whose only obstacle from being in Canton was the HC he was hamstrung with ... it was ALL HUE’S FAULT ...

Think about that before u continue engaging with Memp and Device ...

I’ve seen Memph say that all King John really did was get us a qb ... cause its so easy .. ... especially when he is pimping a talent evaluator that passed on Wentz, Mahommes and Watson not once but twice ... KEEN EYE for QB’s that one has ... expecially when u factor in he set the table in year one with RG3 (who technically rode the pines for the last year or was it two) McCown and Cody ... then he followed that up in year two with Kizer, Cody and Hogan .. what a DREAM TRIO ...

And i’m Sure device and Memph will be more than happy to tell us WHY BAKE WOULD HAVE BEEN A SHOE IN for Mr. Keen Eye for talent Sashi ... i’m Sure they’ll be happy to tell us it was a NO BRAINER ...

I mean look at his draft picks .... STELLAR ...

- C. Coleman ... WOW .... if we didnt all ready know what a keen eye for talent Sashi had this one just knocks it out of the park ... WHAT A GREAT START ... ...

- S. Coleman .. he’s so good I’m pretty sure he didn’t play a down in SF this year .. i’m Sure his talent hasn’t quite reached the surface just yet .. *LOL* ...

Then theres Ricardo Louis, Jordan Payton (he appears to have a keen eye for WR’s also ... ) .. Spencer Drango, Trey Caldwell and Scooby Wright ... there all STUDS in there ma’s eyes ...

The 2nd draft class is highlighted by that keen eye for QB’s .. i mean moving up to take Kizer was SHEER GENIUS ... we were so lucky to have the Shaster ... to bad he was shackled with Hue .. it was all HUE ... HOW COULDN’T HUE WIN WITH THAT QB ROOM ... WOW ... talk about sucktitude ... incredible he couldnt win with that group ...

And Jamie Collins .. what an ANALYTICAL DREAM ... talkabout an OVER ACHEIVER ... 100% all out HUSTLE on every play .. just an ANALYTICS DREAM ... oh wait ... ... he couldnt even get that right ...

And my favorite .. device saying King John didnt overhaul the roster cause over 1/2 the starters were on the team when King John took over .... guess I shouldn’t be shocked coming from a poster that thinks Sashi IS DA MAN ... guess he doesn’t undertand the roster RUNS MUCH DEEPER than the 22 starters on O and D and gone 53 deep ... MATH IS NOT HIS FRIEND ... *LOL* ...

All King John did was bring in Randall, Ward and Mitchell for the secondary .. BUT Gaines and Carrie don’t count according to device cause they didnt start ... ...

Avery don’t count either ... i wonder if Chubb counts on O ... ...

There was VICE GRIPS, Robinson, Hubbard, Chubb and Bake on O .. does Calloway count? .. we know Perriman don’t cause he didnt start either ... ...

Come on bone ... your out of your mind .. it’s clear just HOW GREAT SASHI was ... we just missed it ... just ask Memph or Device .. they “get it” ...

Yeesh. C'mon dude.

I didn't say half the stuff you claim I did. Please don't put words in my mouth.

You've already said this topic isn't for you and it shows.

I wasn't even the one to bring Sashi into this thread, but I was just the one correcting those who erroneously blamed Sashi for all the losing and a 1-31 record.

Also, regardless of who is GM, we still would have had the first pick in the 2018 draft. And believe it or not, if we happened to win a few games and didn't have the first pick in the draft we did have the assets to trade up and get the QB we wanted. We didn't gain those assets by losing, which was the claim. That was the point. I couldn't care less which QB Sashi would have picked because it doesn't matter, the point is we had the fire power to get the QB we coveted because of Sashi's moves.

Those who wish to believe or quick to say we would have passed on 4-5 QBs with 2 of the first 4 picks because that's what Sashi was about is just agenda driven and plain wrong.

I'm also not as naive to believe that swapping out back-up DBs is the reason why we are finally winning. I suppose the swapping of Carl Nassib for Anthony Zettel is the reason we are now a winner, right?

If you want to continue to defend Hue, you just don't get it.

If you want to continue to say it doesn't matter who the HC was, you just don't get it.

In my opinion releasing Nassib was no different than not resigning Benjamin or Gipson. But where are those blaming King John for releasing Nassib? Double standard much? Please. You guys need a new agenda. You failed on this one.

I stopped here. Shame on you for making stuff up. We already have enough posters doing that.

You're smarter than I. He trolled me right into that one.

FACTS DON’T HAVE FEELINGS ... sorry if u don’t like the FACTS ...

You run around IGNORING FACTS like King John has RE-BUILT THE ROSTER ...

U wanna boil it down to the 22 starters and get a chafed butt when u get called out on it with FACTS ...

Memph boils it down to getting a QB .... ... like thats easy and Bake was a no brainer ... then his butt gets all sore when someone has the audacity to post some facts about Sashi’s keen eye for QB talent ..

Sorry ... thiis isn’t a one way street ... FACTS are FACTS ... sorry if they don’t align with your unrealistic version of reality ....

U give Sashi credit for re-building this team ... ... HUGE DIFFERENCE between setting us up to re-build and actually re-building ... a difference you seem to be having a real hard time making ...

Things worked out well ... u guys can wallow in this crap all u want ... i’m Done with it .. gonna focus on the fun .... like what’s KING JOHN GONNA DO NEXT ...

C ya ....

More nonsense.

Like I said, there was a mess

There is an old saying in business, hire slow, fire fast.

I'm not defending haslam here, no question, his inability to hire right has caused most of these issues, but he hasn't sat pat. He's worked at it and failed a few times. Could it be that he's finally hit on Dorsey?

Thus far I've been unable to see much in the way of mistakes by Dorsey. Maybe agreeing to keep Hue Jackson and the hiring of Todd Haley.. That would be considered mistakes in Hindsight, but at least Haley has had great success elsewhere.

Anyway, what was was, what is is. Right now, things are looking pretty darn nice.

As a fan, I was having a ball watching this team last season.

I'd like to enjoy it..

Thank you for posting my comment. So where did I say getting Baker was a no-brainer and getting a QB was the only reason we are successful? I literally reference talent already on the roster.

Try again.

I don't make the news. I just report it. The roster turnover is exactly as I said it is. By next season, I doubt we'll have over 10 players left from when Dorsey took over. I guess some will be arguing that those ten players mean the roster hasn't been totally re-vamped.

You are changing your argument again. I'll ask again.... is the fact that there was a 30 person roster turnover because there were "no real players" and the reason for success?

Well if you would stop doing that there would be one less.

Yes.

Those numbers are nice and all, but what do they mean?

Ideally we would calculate those numbers for every other team in the NFL. But that would be a lot of work . I'd suggest using the Rams and Pats for comparison as they are playing in this years super bowl. How much turnover did they have in their rosters from last year? If we want to use this data as an indictment of Sashi, how many players that Sashi acquired are still on the team as compared to the number of players on those teams from those same years?

I don't know the answer but we need more data to put those numbers into context.