DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Interesting take from ESPN on Haslam and the coaching search

I don't really try to use it as an indictment of Sashi. I think Sashi's job was to tear this team down. And he did a great job of that. And I'm sure that we weren't the only team that needed rebuilt from the bottom up.

Point being, almost every skill player position was changed, the OT's were both replaced. The entire QB room was replaced, one RB left, What four WR's changed including our #1 and #2? The entire secondary was rebuilt. I could go on. But when you change almost every skill player on your roster, your secondary and OT's, you rebuilt your team.

But see, almost anyone can gut a team and trade down in the draft. While I guess you can call that some major skill set, I don't believe anyone who wishes to be taken seriously can assert that a person who can do that has the skills you need to build a team.

Sashi did what he came here to do. Blow things up.

Seriously shaking my head here.

No one is disputing the new faces on the roster from 2017 to 2018. But its completely irresponsible to tie the roster turnover to our recent success. If anyone truly believes that, you simply are not paying attention.

Pit - didn't mean to imply you were using these numbers as an indictment of Sashi, meant it to the board in general.

I agree with you that Sashi did what he was hired to go.

If Diam can't refute the words coming out of your mouth, he just throws some new ones in there, adds an emoji and caps lock party and says he won.

Yeah - I am scratching my head on that one. Better RB, better WR core, better QB, better CB and safeties .... and they weren't the reason for success??

I'll give you Hue was worse than I ever imagined and other coaches would have won more games than Hue did .... but the roster had an equal impact on the ability to win more games once Hue was jettisoned.

Yes.

I can see where the confusion rests. My point is that the roster turnover wasn't the ONLY reason for success as many want you to believe. I tend to type slower than my brain.

Also, the argument isn't that Dorsey didn't acquire talented players, but rather that he couldn't have built what we've become without the assets acquired before Dorsey.

Those who downplay the importance of good coaching and a franchise quarterback haven't been paying attention to the browns (or the NFL) the past 20 years.

Just a quick list of players Brown drafted or acquired who are contributors for the current team;

Garrett
Ogunjobi
Ogbah
Schobert
Collins
Peppers
Kindred
BBC
Njoku
Tretter
Zeitler
Colquitt

Who am I missing?

I don’t know the answer to this:

Should players used with picks acquired by Sashi Brown be credited towards him?

I would say no. In my estimation, Sashi's job was to make the Brown's GM position attractive enough to draw a top notch candidate. In Jan 2016, when Farmer was fired, the Cleveland GM job was probably the least attractive GM position in the NFL. The top candidates weren't going to be interested. If the Browns hired a GM at that time, it would have been someone with no experience or someone who had failed somewhere else. The John Dorsey's of the NFL were not going to take the job. Sashi's turned the job from the least attractive to the most attractive. A large part of that attraction was the 5 draft picks in the first 65. So, the picks were part of the what brought Dorsey to Cleveland.

I will not dispute this, however the one thing that many continue to ignore is that the talent evaluators under Sashi who most likely were the driving force in the picks selected are still here under Dorsey.

I keep reading how Sashi wasn't qualified for the position he held. Sashi wasn't the GM. We didn't have a GM.

I recall when we drafted Corey Coleman, many were upset we didn't draft Treadwell... where is Treadwell today? The Ravens drafted Perriman in the first round. Sometimes picks don't work out. Coleman was the top rated WR by many... Treadwell, Fuller, Doctson were the other first rd WR that year I believe. We fail if we had taken any of those.

I believe our front office realized you don't hit on every pick which is why they acquired more picks to build their roster from... Teams that believe they can "win" the draft don't fair well.

Isn't it funny that Perriman man have a second bite of the apple here. But I don't think Coleman will catch on with any team.

Credited to Sashi? No, at least IMO. Sashi wasn't the one who picked them. Dorsey did. But Sashi allowed Dorsey to be in the fantastic draft position he was in with 2 picks in the top 5, two second rounders, and 3 third rounders. Without those extra picks, I showed what Dorsey's draft would have been like as well as what picks he traded for players.

If this is what you took away from his post, I feel bad for you.

I think the argument is how big of a difference a franchise QB elevates your team and amplifies pieces already established. For example, how different was the team with Baker Mayfield than Tyrod Taylor? With the same roster. And even with the same coaches for a few additional weeks. It was night and day. If you can't see how big a different a QB makes (not the only difference, but a huge one), then well....I'm sorry.

Coleman is with the Giants currently.

I would agree. And I see your point on Tyrod. Imagine if we had that pick for another player who could contribute instead of having to trade for Tyrod who last 2 and a half games. I doubt he stays knowing he's the backup. I still don't have issues with the trade because the QB position is so important, but I understand your point.

One could argue we still draft Mayfield at #1, but the rest is a crapshoot. However, one must wonder how much influence the people Sashi put in place had on Dorsey's selections.

Also, important to point out during this rebuilding process is that you can acquire additional compensatory picks by not signing free agents if your players leave in free agency. Obviously, there's more to it than just that, but this undoubtedly played a role in signing many free agents in the first two seasons under Sashi.

Ironically enough, the Patriots and Rams both look to receive a couple 3rd rd compensatory picks and both are in the Super Bowl. As much as people want us to sign free agents, it's not always the best angle to take.

We are, however, in win now mode, so I expect us to be players in free agency.

I think analytics played a large role in drafting Corey Coleman. Reading thru and listening to what we said about him right after selecting him, he sounded great and was highly regarded by many around the NFL. However, like Johnny, it would appear he found things off the field more intriguing than playing football.

Im sure the teams that drafted Fuller, Treadwell, and Doctson over Thomas wonder how that happened and what if. In fact, most of the teams in the NFL passed on Thomas. So it's not like this was an issue only with the Browns.

Well that's a surprise to me.. But good for him

Seeing as Hue is not camera shy, or afraid to leak info to the media - I just assumed that tidbit came from him.

I wondered the same, but I have to think Hue wouldn't leak that he told his boss/owner to get the F@*% out of his office. That's not a good look and I don't think master manipulator Hue would be that dumb. But who knows....

Upon being fired, if you said that, then he actually didn't have an office anymore LOL

It does not surprise me, him being a very recent 1st round pick with some nice speed. Like us with Perriman, I am sure he was a low risk acquisition by the Giants. He certainly has bounce around some. Perriman has shown that he can catch the ball and has (IMO) earned a new contract. Time will tell if Coleman can do the same, or if he has one or two more bounces before he finds a job that does not require hands.

Probably a secondary source. John Dorsey or Jimmy Haslam related the story and then that person tells Wickersham. Or it’s just Haslam or Dorsey.

So you're saying if former GM's and coaches hadn't sucked so bad at what they did, Dorsey wouldn't have had as much ammunition to put together a respectable roster? If that's what you're saying I agree.

Yeah, he had a hopping 5 receptions for 71 yards an 0 td's.

Perriman? He was 16 catches for 340 yards and 2 TDs. Not saying he had Pro Bowl numbers, but I think he is worth a contract.

Edit. Oh, nevermind. You were talking Coleman.

I agree in the case of Coleman that analytics "failed."

However, I don't think of analytics as a "shortcut." It's simply another method to evaluate players. I don't think the overall method is a failure. In fact, we still very much use analytics in our player evaluations with Dorsey on board. If analytics was the driving force in picking Mayfield over Darnold or Rosen or Allen, I'd say it worked.


If anything, I'd say Corey Coleman proves there's no clear cut sure fire way to evaluate players. There's going to failures no matter what system you use.

Dorsey seems to have warmed up to analytics. Likely taking an approach of find the best football player with good analytics and he's your guy. Hoping to cut down a bit on the chance of failure through the use of analytics. Probably a decent approach, at least from a starting point.

Sure. If you want to continue your crusade go with that...

Again, you don't gain additional picks for being awful. The roster wasn't the greatest, but it also wasn't as bad as 0-16 and 1-15. 4-5 both years was quite possible... Coaching was far worse than the front office.

I'm still shocked the amount of people who wish to defend Hue even after seeing an interim coach win more games in half a season than Hue did in 2.5, but whatever...

This is what I took it to be from the beginning.

I noticed inn one of the article quotes at the beginning of the thread that said something to the effect that DePo said Hue didn't fit what they were trying to do. I'm curious if that determination was from a philosophical standpoint only, or if their analytical system also includes a psychology component?

Hue and the roster being putrid are two separate issues. It seems you're suggesting that winning for or five games puts those rosters on equal footing with the roster we have.

If you can't see that replacing all but a few skill players, both OT's, RB's, a total remake of the secondary and WR position wasn't necessary to help turn things around, you can't be helped.

Joe Thomas had a better year than either of our LTs I'd say.
Crow had a better year than Hyde.
Jason McCourty had a better year than any of our CBs.

Our defense was actually worse this year than last year.

If you think Tyrod goes 7-8-1 with this team, you can't be helped.

Yes, a total roster turnover and you do nothing but stick your fingers in your ear going la, la, la, la.

Not sure what all the pontificating is over. What you just said here is pretty accurate as far as I am concerned. Not sure who else has said it but I think Brown did an okay job of tearing it all down and laying a clean foundation on which to build? And as someone (else or the same person) said - Brown wasn't GM and wasn't pulling the trigger on draft picks. jmo. To clarify - I think the success was due to all of the above. GW would have won more games than Hue because he was a better coach (whether it was TT or BM). GW would not have won as many games as he did with the same roster as last year.