DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Interesting take from ESPN on Haslam and the coaching search

I am not trying to make it that. That is just the recent example.

I think it was set up that way from the beginning. I don't think the coach reported to Banner. We can insert any coaches names we want. Pet didn't report to Farmer.

Haslams problem is he wanted to be the problem solver and listened a little to much. At one point, no matter the coaching staff or front office, he would have been better off telling a few to just shut-up and coach better or go get better players.

I think the answer to all of this is a rather simple one. When a team gets together, be it the players on a team or the coaching and FO team, they have every intention of working together. Everything usually starts out in a healthy manner. But when the losing starts and the pressure piles up, people's jobs and careers are on the line.

At that point self preservation creeps in. Human nature calls for survival of the fittest. To show it's not your fault. Failure has a way of bringing out the worst in people. It's why we've seen this pattern over and over again here in Cleveland. That's why the names have been changing yet the situation has stayed the same.

It's been a vicious cycle that I have long called The Merry-Go-Round of Misery.

It has to stop in order for this team to ever find true success. I'm praying that Kitchen and the boys get off to a fast start next year because I don't trust the local media, some of our fans, and most importantly---Haslam.

After all the years we've witnessed it and regimes we've been through, history dictates that's what will happen.

It most certainly does. People would rather lie, twist the facts, attack and make a fool of themselves rather than admit that they're wrong.

I've seen evidence of that.

And that's exactly where Haslam's management style became so detrimental. Confiding in "underlings" is not a big deal in a successful environment. In a Merry-Go-Round of Misery it creates ill-will and becomes a cancer. It's contagious bro, it's con-ta-gious.

What's worse (especially in politics), if somebody actually does have the kahunas to admit that they were wrong....rather than getting respect, he'll get pounced on by a pack of disgusting hyenas.

I certainly feel having several people reporting directly to Haslam rather than the standard management protocol added to the dysfunction.

I think everybody knows that winning cures all. I just don't think the fans and media are going to turn as fast as some think if we don't win out of the gate. There is a honeymoon period.

My feeling is it might even be longer this year considering all the losing over the past few years.

We can't allow a few posters on a mission around here make us think that is how people are thinking out in public. In other words, I don't think this board is a good cross section as compared to the general public. I mean we just had a coach who had a pretty long grace period, so I don't think things are going to turn ugly early. I think the new front office structure is going to help that. We aren't going to have GM and coach fighting for position with the owners

I don't believe the last HC had a very long grace period with the fan base. But you could be right by saying "right out of the gate". Once we get past mid season I think the grace period will be over.

As for Hue I didn't see any indication that the fan base gave him a very long grace period either. I also don't see him being here as long as he was as a grace period on the part of Haslam either. I'm not saying I'm right, but it appeared to me as more of a necessary evil on the part of Haslam. He had been so impatient with every HC and FO to that point, it seemed to me like he had to show people around the league that he was willing to give Hue every opportunity to succeed here. His impatience was notorious and he had to send a different message as much as it pained him to do so.

No, this fan base nor ownership has never been one to give either FO's nor HC's much of a grace period. It's only natural because the frustration level had grown over a period of almost two decades.

And as of now I feel the expectation level is as high or higher than its ever been since our return. If things don't go well people will be looking for a scape goat. Usually it has been the HC first. This has been the pattern since 1999. I certainly hope this trend changes but I've seen zero evidence to this point that indicates it will.

Yep. And I'm becoming more convinced that was the real kiss of death. I understand part of the intent by JH though. Think about it, you just bought your shiny new toy (and the shine may take a while to wear off if you paid 1 billion). You have full confidence in your own ability to lead and want to foster a collaborative environment during your "on the job training". You keep the roles loose and interject your leadership everywhere - expecting success.

At Facebook Inc? Sure, maybe... NFL - not for long when there is constant losing. Lack of traditional NFL hierarchy just exacerbated every failure and made the organization look more and more confused and clueless about its future. If we can't assume where to point the fingers from the outside looking in, what do we expect those on the inside to do??

Set a traditional NFL hierarchy and play it by the letter until you have success. Roles can easily be adjusted or tweaked as you go anyway. Wake up and realize the smartest thing you can do is trust your leaders to lead, and do your bast to stay out of their way, no matter how hard it has you champing at the bit. It's a lot easier to learn from people when you see them succeeding anyway.

You're the owner. You have every right to be involved and informed... deal with it directly with your GM and let him do his job.

The more I look back at the past, the more I place blame on the Farmer hire. He was literally thrown in to a near hopeless position, all at the selfishness of an owner that thought he would try his next round of "Jimmy Haslam magic"... with a puppet.

I hold out hope that he has learned from all this. Early results are actually impressive... since the Dorsey hire. The last stumbling block was getting over the hump of what Jimmy thought was a good idea, and I can't fault him, giving Hue a short leash for redemption. Again, hierarchy dictated, and showed exactly why it's important, when you saw a new GM with a coach he didn't hire, arguing with a OC he didn't hire either. I say the last stumbling block because all JH has to do now is let his leaders lead. And he can't do anything more to help until we have a successful, winning organization.

I hope this isn't a dead horse.

I have often tried to explain on this very board that there's a world of difference in marketing a product you've been provided with and building a winning product. Such as it is with selling fuel you purchase from someone else and building a winning football team. It's apples and oranges.

Hopefully Haslam has turned the corner where he realizes it too.

History doesn't dictate anything. And the team is operating under an entirely different set of circumstances than from ever before. 1) We have a franchise QB who produces. 2) We have a head coach selected by the GM, who reports to the GM. 3) We have the most talented rosters in 30 years. These three things alone are enough to change the course of events.

Then there are other mitigating circumstances that make this regime different, the degree to which they affect the overall outcome though will be hard to measure until after the outcome, whether next year or five years from now. Like Freddie's team first, all for one, one for all attitude and egoless leadership. His seemingly creative approach to play calling. His ability to motivate the players and coaches, and so on.

There is also the degree to which the Haslams, Jimmie in particular, are willing to give up the reigns and let the professionals run the show. Now that there are professionals to run the show. It seems at first glance there is the willingness demonstrated by the HC hire and COC.

Does any of this guarantee success? Of course not. But now more than ever, IMHO, it is unlikely history will repeat itself in a similar fashion of the past 20 years. Bottom line? Now we have to win.

It won't change the fans reaction if we don't have immediate success. While it may not be the majority of the fan base, we all know the squeky wheel gets greased first.

History may not dictate the outcome of the teams success, but it will dictate to how the fan base will react if the situation isn't favorable in season one of the new HC and staff.

Hopefully it's moot. There's no reason not to have success on some level. The talent is there, and should get better. The QB is good with a fundamental drive to win. Freddie has a leg up because the bar is so low and the ceiling is so high.

The bar was so low. It's not nearly as low this year, in fact it's much higher. Freddie had a leg up on getting the job, now that he has it, he has to stand on his own two feet and succeed. We all know how long that lasts in the NFL, let alone Cleveland. A 2-3 start and you'd hear rumblings around these parts unless he just flat-out looks the part. While the upside is so exciting, we can't forget how ugly the down side can become. People expect some magic from the dynamic duo next year, if they don't get it right away, well... you know.

I certainly agree! Yet we won five out of the last seven games and we read how some people not only hope for the playoffs, but expect them. That doesn't sound like some are setting that low bar you mentioned.

I'm excited and optimistic about the direction we're headed in. But I'm one who can understand that sometimes you can take two steps forward and one step back. I'm not so sure that many can do that.

Oddly enough, I have not read the article yet. A lot of friends pointed me to it, and of course it is being discussed at various levels here. I think maybe I saw it as dredging up the dysfunctional past because things seems to going much better now and that is not newsworthy.

Kind of like when I don't piss my wife off for a couple of days she will dig something out from the past so she has something to yell about.

But, I will get around to reading it soon.

Imagine calling players like Joe Thomas, Myles Garrett, Duke Johnson, Christian Kirksey, Joel Bitonio, Jason McCourty, Carl Nassib, JC Tretter, Joe Schobert, Kevin Zeitler, Emmanuel Ogbah, Larry Ogunjobi, Jabril Peppers, Jamie Collins, Isaiah Crowell, Briean Boddy-Calhoun, Josh Gordon, Derrick Kindred, David Njoku, Deshone Kizer, Rashard Higgins, Trevon Coley, James Burgess talentless and then thinking that's the reason why the Browns couldn't win a game.

Fan reaction never changes when losing. Not here, not anywhere.

Outside of inserting Kizer in there, I'd agree with you.

Kizer did get us Randall. Other than that ... bleh.

Talent certainly wasn't the sole reason. As a fan I've felt more than once that a loss came down to scheme or willingness to win. Not having a QB looms large as a reason also. But in some cases, we simply got our asses kicked because we allowed it to happen. There was little drive to win. Whether due to culture, coaching, talent, attitude or what, who knows? But we stunk because we stunk. Pick your own reasons. There are plenty to chose from.

IMAGINE not being able to comprehend that Hue and Sashi could and did BOTH STINK ...

IMAGINE talking about a roster WITHOUT mentioning the QB position when pointing out how bad a coach is .. and HUE STUNK the menZas will turn that into me sticking up for Hue cause that’s how they roll ..

IMAGINE what Bill Bilichecks record would have been with the QB rooms Sashi built ...

IMAGINE thinking a man could build a team when 13 of his 24 draft picks that span 2 years are no longer with the team and that # will more than likely rise to AT LEAST 16 before next season starts ...

IMAGINE thinking a man can build a team PASSING ON 3 FRANCHISE QB’S ...

IMAGINE 0 + 0 = 0 being complex math ...

IMAGINE not knowing when to either admit your wrong or at least not knowing to just keep your yap shut cause your defending the INDEFENSIBLE ...

IMAGINE not being the best damm bartender EVER and running the bars and lounges on the Isle ...

That was a FUN GAME ... wonder what games next ....

Imagine entering a conversation not know what's being discussed and then acting like you know and looking foolish...


And yes, that was great fun!

I just lol'd so loud at work that I was reported to HR, considered a workplace disturbance, and now they're having a meeting about me.

Yet some of those players are already gone and as has been noted, we sucked at the skill positions.

This is my concern.

We can assume he’s forever changed, resigned himself to a Lerner-esque role, and that our competent front office controls the operation of the Cleveland Browns, but it’s still an assumption. It is an assumption that is currently supported by some evidence (changing reporting structure, stepping away from the spotlight), but it is also evidence from the brightest period of his ownership tenure.

What does long-term success look like for Haslam, though? What happens when the current regime hits a roadblock?

For example, Dorsey spent 22 years in the personnel department of the Green Bay Packers, which operated as one of the model NFL franchises. During that time, he had two Hall of Fame quarterbacks and worked alongside some all-star talent evaluators. Still, they missed the playoffs seven times. In fact, they had two-year postseason droughts on three separate occasions. And they lost their first playoff game five more times.

How will Haslam react once he’s had a taste of success? Will it reinforce his restraint, or will his more controlling instincts come to the fore?

We just don’t know.

And we won’t know until it happens.

But I think it’s a fair cause for concern.

Just because they're gone, doesn't mean it was the right decision. In some cases, yes. In others, no.

If we went by your logic, we're estatic Schwartz, Mack, TJ Ward, Sheard, etc. were let go at the time.

Which great skill position players that were let go were a mistake? Corey Coleman? Josh Gordon? The Crow? Any of our QB's from last year?

I'm just curious because we actually have skill players that produce now.

Ah ha! I love how your argument shifts. I think we have added players at skill positions, namely at the QB position. And you see how that amplifies the talent that was already here. If you're argument is now going to be we had talent, just not at many skill positions, I probably would have agreed. But you didn't.....you went the 30 player roster turnover is the main reason why we're successful and the "no real" players route.

Just look at your sig.

My sig. is a quote by Dorsey. Looks like he agrees with me. That's what he saw when he came here and that's why 30 players are gone. And that's just in his first season.

I can google you an address to e-mail him about it if you like.

three thoughts. First I think Dorsey walked back that statement a little later. I do not have a citation for that but that is my memory. Second, I think it is perfectly reasonable to say John Dorsey has done a great job!! He is the guy that is making us a force again. I think it is also perfectly reasonable to say sashi did not do that terrible a job of player acquisition. Toad all the turnover, I think 10 of our 22 starters were acquired or resigned by sashi and I will be shocked if next season 9 of those 10 are still starting.

For those who think you have to love one and hate the other I just do not buy it.

I just wanted to say that this season we completely replaced our QB room, replaced all but one WR, all but one RB, and all but 3 OL. We did keep 2 TE. By my count, the defense did better, with us keeping 4 DL, 3 LB, and 4 DB.

By the end of the season, players not acquired by Dorsey, who were still starting, were

QB - 0
RB - 0 (Though Duke was a key backup)
WR - 0 (Though Higgins was a key backup)
TE - 1 (DeValve was a backup)
OL - 3

DL -4
LB - 2 (Kirksey IR)
DB - 1 (Kindred and Boddy-Calhoun were key backups)

I could see Bitonio, Tretter, and Zeittler all starting, and Njoku did come on at the end of the season.

On defense, I can see Garrett, Ogunjobi, and maybe Ogbah all staring on the DL, depending on how the new DC uses them. I think that Schobert and Peppers also stand a chance of starting. Kirksey was a starter, and is on IR. I suppose that's 10.

I am curious as to which 9 of these 10 you think will be replaced? There does come a time for adding, not just subtracting everyone, and I think we're here. Would it surprise me to see 2 or 3 starters bumped down the food chain? Probably not. 8 starters being demoted or cut, on a team expecting to contend for the playoffs? I have a hard time seeing that.

Almost NOBODY had an excitement level at all about Higgins or Perriman before the season... a lot of people were down on Calloway for underachieving and thought Njoku was on his way to being a bust with the dropsies..

Now, for some reason, people are talking about how long most of their contract extensions should be... funny how having a QB does that.

I would even add Crow to that list.. I think Chubb is better mind you but it's not like Crow was horrible and if he had a passing game and some flow to the offense I'm pretty sure he could have been more than adequate.

This perception of a total lack of talent at the skill positions was driven by poor QB play and poor offensive schemes and play calling... Fix those 2 things and suddenly all of the players nobody cared about seem to have gotten magically better.

As well as being driven by a HC who kept waiting for “better players” before he could start doing what he was hired to do. When you don’t have faith in your people it still shows through, even on a subconscious level. It’s one of the, if not THE lamest excuse I’ve ever heard in pro
Sports.

Did you just click me or are you asking me those questions? If so, I am not sure what I said that would trigger questions like that?

Sorry Peen, I think I quick replied.