DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns trade Kevin Zeitler for Olivier Vernon

Not sure what you mean. Who is going to be out of position?

Nobody. At worst, Ogbah will be great depth that stays fresh and brings a motor in short stints to give Vernon & Garrett breathers.

i also think we anticipate ogbah being gone by this time next year

Agreed. I think Ogbah will be depth if he is still on the team. We might move him, but he would be quality depth. We know that defensive linemen rotate a lot.

I don't think he has the bulk to play inside too much. We used him there at times late in the year and he was engulfed by guards.

I think Ogbah and Coley [should they both remain on the team] will be part of the rotation and join other backups such as Chris Smith.

I still think we will add a new starter at DT to play along side Ogunjobi or whatever his name is.

Christian Wilkins or Ed Oliver, hopefully.

I haven't studied the draft. Which of those two guys do you think would be better against the run, including eating up blockers to keep LBers and SS free?

Garrett - Ogunjobi - Oliver - Vernon With Ogbah, Smith, Coley rotating WOW

From my eyes, I think Zeitler is an elite level pass blocking guard but below average in the run game. Making him overall an above average OG.

Corbett will definitely be less of a pass blocker but I think he will be more powerful in the run game.

IS that our goal? To have more of a power run game?

Hmmmmm.........I never thought of that.

Neither. Both are more penetrators.

I'm trying to figure out how high Khalen Saunders will go. If we can grab him with the 4th we picked up, I'd like it. Maybe grab Suh on a short term deal while he adjusts to the jump in competition.

I'm starting to look more at CBs at 17.

J/C ..... for those doubting this move .... and I hate losing a talented guy like Zeittler .... I am reminded at how some, including me, have greeted some of Dorsey's move.

1) Baker Mayfield pick. I thought for sure that we blew it. I felt that Mayfield could be a competent QB, but nothing special. Thus far it looks like Dorsey might know a little more than me, and others, about the QBs.

2) Many lambasted Dorsey for taking Ward at #4 .. especially over Chubb. As things turned out it wasn't the slam dunk mistake many thought.

3) Yes, the Corbett pick. I did not like this pick. However, we picked a different kid out of Nevada, and he has turned out to be pretty good on the left side. Now we get to see hos Corbett will be on the right side at RG.

4) One of the biggest Browns fan blow ups was when Nick Chubb made a mistake in pass pro early in the year. Oh he was brutalized. Then we traded Hyde, and there were quite a few people who were sure that Chubb was going to get Baker killed.

I think that Dorsey has gained some level of trust in his player decisions.

I admit that I am curious to see if Chad Thomas will manage to do anything at DT this coming season. He was another highly questioned draft pick.

I don't...

Ogbah Amassed 29 tackles (18 solo), a career-high six passes defensed, four sacks, two forced fumbles and one fumble recovery in 10 games before sustaining a season-ending foot injury in 2017.

Led team with 5.5 sacks, tied for fourth-most by a Browns rookie and tied for fifth among all NFL rookies in 2016.
link

Ogbah could have been struggling with the foot injury last season.. If he heals completely and plays like he did before the injury... then there's a real good chance he's not going anywhere..and I would hope he stays.

I think Jeffrey Simmons would be a good fit, but I'm not sure about his injury. Is he expected to miss next season?

The other guy I have watched that fits my role is Dexter Lawrence. Won't he be available after the first round?

J/C

I'm not a contract nerd but here is another positive aspect of this transaction for the Browns. The team gets $2 mil in cap relief.

I can live with that arrangement.
It's called depth... something we've never really had since '99.

Just clicking, Clem.

After thinking about it, I like this deal better than trading Zeitler for OBJ.

Although when I woke up this morning, I started warming to the idea of KZ for OBJ, not just cuz Odell is a great talent, but also because I have to believe our FO knows what they're doing.

I still worry about the unknown that will be Zeitler's replacement.

I don't think Corbett will be a liability in pass pro, but I doubt that he will be as good as Zeitler - at least this year.

The trade seems reasonable on the surface, but I think there are some interesting subsurface questions. People have already mentioned Corbett's readiness & what to do with Ogbah, so I'll go to these...

1. Is Vernon going to stay healthy? This was his issue in NY, and if it continues to be, we lose the trade.

2. Did we see Vernon's ceiling when he was healthy in MIA/NY? People mentioned his sack numbers, but that was as THE rusher in NY. What happens when he plays opposite Garrett? Flipside of that, Ogbah has already been playing with less attention than Vernon got, so we can't really compare.

3. How effective can Vernon be out of position? I didn't realize until I watched the highlights, but all of his sacks were when he lined up at RDE...where a certain Mr. Garrett lines up typically. We know Garrett has the ability to move around a little, but that should be to mix it up, not a new normal. So I have some concerns over how effective Vernon can be as a LDE.

4. This is related to the Corbett question, but I'm wondering if it was a poor move to downgrade at RG. Not as valued a position as DE, no question. However, after watching Baker, and really all QBs fall into the same category more or less, pressure up the middle is the biggest concern. His escapability allows him to deal with outside pressure. But his size would seem to ampify the problems of inside pressure. So I wonder if we aren't downplaying the role of the generic NFL RG instead of considering the role of the 2019 Browns RG.

Not a fan of this trade. Firm believer that games are won and lost in the trenches. However im hopeing this somehow works out.

Corbet was an OT in college, why would he not be a good pass blocker as a Guard ?

I always thought Corbett lacked strength, and that was his issue? I could be very wrong

My bad, wrong thread

Hard to fault the logic of this trade. However it's still a bit scary. Who really knows if Corbett can play and the Browns got lucky with OL injuries last year. Bitonio has not exactly been an Iron Man. They better find a decent backup or Mayfield is going to pay the price.

Am I antiquated in thinking we need a run stuffer? I know rush the QB is the name of the game.

I’d like to see good run defense. I trust Denzel in the secondary, he can be captain.

I love Simmons. Everything I can find out is he will be out for the year after his torn ACL. I googled and it said the average recovery time for a football player is 55 weeks.

Vernon plays "in the trenches."

You're not wrong, but he's more in the average zone. Actually, he compares pretty well to Joel Bitonio.

Bitonio was a combine star. A top performer in every athletic discipline but average in the bench. Corbett was not a top performer in anything, but he did okay in everything. 19 reps to Bitonio's 22. A 5.15 forty to Bitonio's 4.97. 28 inch vert to Bitonio's 32.

Basically identical size, but that little bit less strong and less athletic - yet none of it is so much so that it is concerning.

Corbett made his mark as being well refined, having great technique, putting together consistent performances and being known as a very smart, mature well beyond his years and a very high character kid.

Bascially, it seems everything about Corbett suggested he'd be pretty good. He wasn't the combine superstar that went with the following selection, Will Hernandez to the Giants, but he wasn't as wild and in need of refinement and development.

So, I'll wonder aloud, how much the kid might have benefit from a year in NFL strength and conditioning. If he can strengthen up and hit new strides, he has the knowledge and skill to be a pretty damn good player.

And, it is worth acknowledgement that the best OL from the 2018 draft was the 6th overall selection, Quenton Nelson, who was a pro-bowler for the Colts. The next best? Very easy to argue it was Orlando Brown, who went 83rd to the Ravens. Baby Zeus had one of the worst combine performances ever seen and there were legitimate concerns he lacked the strength or the athleticism for the NFL.

I guess we'll see. I might agree that Corbett seems to lack the natural gifts to ever be a truly elite player - but he may well be a very effective guard.

I don't know as much about Vernon as everyone else on this board, but I thought he had been relatively healthy throughout his career and that last year's injury was a high ankle sprain, which could happen to anyone.

Is this wrong and is he injury prone?

You have lamented many times that posters don't really watch other NFL teams and I plead guilty of that,others should also.
Here is what I know,he has the same first name as the last name of the guy that played Lawrence of Arabia in that stupid British movie of the same name.

LOL......

FYI: I don't think he has an injury history outside of the high ankle sprain and was trying to be subtle.

O'Toole?

I think you're right.I got myself so damned confused all I could come up with Lawrence Olivier.
Not only do I not watch other NFL teams,it would appear I don't watch stupid British war movies either.

I feel solid going into new season. Solid tenders, good cap, Dorsey gunning our draft picks, and much less need.

I liked Zeitwerts play and I will miss him. But upgrades don't mean you don't lose something substantial in a swap. We upgraded our weak corner and our pick position.

I would do this again.

Laurence Olivier was in Spartacus...anyway... Our Olivier was dinged up the last two seasons (both from ankle injuries) but played full seasons for 3 straight before that (including in New York).

I'm sure since Corbett has been here the coaches have had him lifting weights. He's probably stronger now then when he got drafted. JD wouldn't have traded KZ without at least AC being ready or some other plan. JMO

Exactly - not injury prone. 1 high ankle sprain last year.

you never trade a player thats Top 5 at his position for lesser player
at his position.
Zeiter impacted the Browns success on offense as much as one player could.
Vernon isnt even a elite DE. hes good but not great.
your never mess with chemistry and continuity on a oline.
whats been cried on this board for years and years.....
continunity.
Vernon might be the answer at the other DE. he's good but the Browns gave up a important piece of Bakers and Chubbs success last year.
if Sashi made this move their wouldnt be so much approval around here

j/c

I didn't watch any Giants games last year to know if Vernon is any good. I'll rely on all you experts for that.

I do know Zeitler played well.

What happens if Corbett isn't what we hope he will be? Well, then I think we need to hope that (1) Kitchens recognizes it and plans the offense accordingly; and (2) Mayfield continues to be mobile. Because, hey, Mayfield getting out of the pocket is one of his most dangerous attributes.

Also, with Chubb and Hunt, Kitchens should be able to design some plays that will slow down the pass rush. That might mask any drop off in guard play.

We had a high draft pick guard sitting on our bench. We need some pass rush besides Garrett.

Will Vernon work out? Who knows? We'll find out, I guess. But considering Dorsey's successes so far, I'll give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

Just because we were inept in the past doesn't mean we have to assume all our moves going forward are inept, too.

JMHO