DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns interested in Gerald McCoy?

Just to be clear...I am not suggesting that Davis is equal to McCoy. I just said to not 'sleep on' Davis. The scuttlebutt is that he and GW didn't 'mesh'. (BTW, I've read the same with Chad Thomas.) Then we see that Davis was quietly re-signed this off-season. Dorsey and Wilks must see something they like in him.

Davis being cut by a team with a very good interior DL is not a bad mark against Davis. You posted as if it's a bad thing that he couldn't cut it on a team with "one of the better D-line units". It's not unreasonable to think that Baltimore's sixth (and released) DT is better than was our fourth DT at this time last year.

Coley played through injuries last year if I remember correctly. Healthy and not asked to be a starter, he might be better than he has been since he's been here.

That said, McCoy would be a significant upgrade over any backup DT on the roster...no doubt. However, his contract IS a problem...if it wasn't a problem, he'd not be "available".

I read an article this morning that suggested the likely candidates in a trade are us and the Raiders. They have more cap space (especially after 2019) and can offer him a starting position. We are thought to be a playoff contender - something McCoy has "never even sniffed" (using his own words). Lastly, none of his current contract is guaranteed. I could see us trying to re-negotiate his contract if we trade for him and I would think we would be all over him if he were released.

A DL with Garrett, Vernon, Richardson, McCoy is SCARY

I love Duke but if they offered McCoy for Duke Straight Up ... Done Deal

Good well-reasoned post. I understand where you're coming from much more clearly.

BTW, not that you said it but if we did sign McCoy I don't envision him as a starter instead of Ogunjobi. Larry has earned his spot. I consider him a foundational piece. I'd establish up front with McCoy that he would be a complimentary addition in a good rotation. If he didn't see himself in that role it would lessen my interest in bringing him in.

I was trying to think of a comparison for us if we got McCoy. The best comp I could come up with is Seattle in 2013 (the year they won the Super Bowl). They had a bunch of very talented players (Michael Bennett, Cliff Avril, Brandon Mebane, Chris Clemons, Red Bryant) that they moved all along the line to exploit the best matchups. The difference is that none of those guys had the upside of Myles Garrett. That line wrecked tons of teams.

I can't wait for the season to start.

" can't wait for the season to start." Me too man. I am really looking forward to this season. No reason we shouldn't make the playoffs. We have the talent, we shall see if we have the coaching.

I'm actually contemplating buying a jersey. Haven't done that since the move when I burned all of mine... Kicking myself now for sure! Hundreds of dollars worth of jerseys, hats, etc.

I think they finally have this thing heading in the right direction... Now, do I get a Landry jersey or a Chubb jersey? Difficult dilemma...

The negative of reworking a deal is that it adds dead cap if we cut him.

Blowing his fingers off and now breaking his neck. He's definitely had a strange collection of offseasons.

This obviously makes retaining McCoy a greater need by the Bucs. I'm not a contract guru but by what I'm seeing on Sortrac it would cost around $14 in cap space to keep JPP on the active roster. It looks like it cost bout $7.5 mill in dead money if he were released. I don't know how any type of injury designation would impact his cost. Timing would still seem to remain an important element. Regardless of this latest bad news they will still need to do something to create cap space to sign their full draft class. I don't know if dragging out the McCoy saga presents any benefit. LIke most teams I"m sure they want to get their full class signed before training camp.

Not strange, not really. Just predictable results of irresponsible activity.

Sorry to laugh...LOL....no kidding...wow.

A broken neck and football isn't a good thing....heck, it isn't good any time.

JPP's injury makes their need for cap space even greater. I bet we could get McCoy for a fifth round pick (and that might be overpaying).

j/c:

Does anyone know how good McCoy is against the run. I don't watch Tampa Bay much.

Thank you, Grateful. You provide a ton of great information to the rest of us. I really appreciate your efforts.

Years back, I remember the time one Jerry Ball gave us. Saw him at camp in Berea, shirt off, and just massive. He had game left, so regeneration is not to be ruled out. Got his autograph. One of this fan's faves!

Playoff is a bonus incentive. Little extra.

No, ... No,

A running back has way more impact on a game than any defensive lineman.
A running back with Duke's skill set of being the pass cathing type threat that he is, and with the effective running game he has even not being over used in the past, so there aren't too many miles on his legs so to speak.

Duke, for the style of player he is, even if he took a step back in his effectiveness for a time, would still be more valuable to effect the outcomes of games and a season than what a D-lineman offers you.

It's like, everyone understands kickers only kick, and only take the field a few plays a game, so nobody would argue a kicker is more valuable than a number 1 Wr who might score 15+ td's a year.

A D lineman is only going to get to the QB sometimes, and even if he gets a big play, if it results in 2nd and very long, the team can still convert on the next play and totally negate the D linemans play. (or often winds up with an "automatic 1st down penalty" in this league)

Running backs, WR's Qb's, they score TD's and those effect the outcomes of games and seasons to a greater extent than the difference a team gets

from having a little greater upside at a D lineman, vs. having a D lineman with standard affectiveness.

Even if/since/though he's asked for a trade, Duke is still a more valuable asset.

Runningback > D-lineman, especially if you already have enough effective D lineman to hold the line of scrimmage so to speak,
I mean if there were a glaring hole and absolutely no way to stop the run or get pressure do to complete incompetence at one or more of the starting D-line spots then there could be an argument,

but, having enough already, the benefits derived by the upside of the person to person improvement to upgrade your last, one of your last D-linemen from average or above, to better than average or sometimes great, doesn't equal, as a value gain, the effectiveness toward scoring points and then winning, that would be the decrease of losing a runningback with the abilities to sustain offensive drives and make catches and provide value, in a dynamic way,

Even if the team, lowered the usage of Duke, and doesn't know what a player they have in him, and how to make proper use of his effectiveess by getting the ball to him in space .. in 2018, or 17, like they did in 16

Doesn't take away the ability that is present if they would just choose to make use of this again,

and FOR THAT! Duke is too valuable for a straight up trade.

But other people will hold differing views, but it's not an exact science. Talent is not an exact science that can be measured in wonderlic scores and work out numbers, those are just indicators to try and help,

But that's why they play the games, that's football.

This story keeps lingering. Where there's smoke...who knows??? It would cap off what already looks like a tough defensive front.

The only real value Duke holds is as an insurance policy for the first 8 games. IMO he is easily replaced on this team. Hilliard may have already replaced him.

You also have to consider that Dorsey is doing what most GM's do and purge the roster of players they didn't select, keeping only the out and out good players. I wouldn't be surprised to see Kirksey and Schobert cut in favor of the drafted guys. Maybe not both this year, one might be kept.

I am a fan of Duke. I'd prefer the team to acquire McCoy without including Duke in the deal but I don't accept the idea that running backs are generally more valuable than D-tackles. Surely not a running back who is relegated to a third-down change of pace role compared to an interior d-lineman who has above average production in both run defense and pass defense.

Below are two sites with their own positional rankings. To be fair these rankings vary widely. Neither has RB, especially third down back above interior d-line.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...ack-to-returner

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1659...days-nfl#slide0

Again in the spirit of full disclosure, the ranking below does put running back and d-lineman on the same tier but even then gives a nod to the d-line.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1556...to-tiers#slide5


When looking at this issue in context it becomes clear that the Browns better be as prepared or over prepared to stop the run when this season opens. Eight of our 2019 opponents were in the top 15 rushing teams in the league. In order of their rankings: 1, Seatle; 2, Baltimore; 3, LA Rams; 5, NE; 7, Tennesse; 9, Buffalo; 12, Denver and 13, San Fransico. See the link below.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing

Thanks for the info, but not many would even consider that a 3rd down back is more important than McCoy would be if here.

Grateful's posts are always great.

I think we get McCoy.

Let the NFL beware.

Wow. We meet six of the eight in the first half of the season, four in the first five weeks. We'll be tested by the elite, early and often.

1, Seattle: Week 6
2, Baltimore: Week 4
3, LA Rams: Week 3
5, NE: Week 8
7, Tennessee: Week 1
9, Buffalo: Week 10
12, Denver: Week 9
13, San Francisco: Week 5

IMO, you need 4 RB's, (but they never have em) that can legit start and not be a liability on gameday, so let's say 3.
I'm not as high on Hilliard as some here.

The D'.. front 7 are drafted higher to stop the prolific runners, and passers so draft position, every year we see it,
I put it down to (DL) there's 4 on the field, sometimes 3, sometimes 5 on goal line or 4th and 1, and when the league has 32 teams vs the old 28 or less, .. the talent pool, you really gotta get what you can because one bad spot really gets exploited in the league.

Everyone knows Hunt is out 8 games, and if I hold the view it's the team not getting Duke the ball,
as more of , (or moreso than some, not an entirety but a percentage), of his not looking like as good of a player, ... or as much so, as Hunt looked in KC,
VERSES Hunt's amount of being a better person 1 v 1 than Duke at the position,

than I might think Hunt won't look as good in Cleveland as Hunt looked in KC, due to the reason the Browns scheme won't use that position as often.

.. The phrase "Defense wins championships", I agree it has merit, But people ignore the 2nd word, "wins",

It's because in my view, the "getting" to the championships, (With great offense, talent and play) weeds out all the teams without the Best offensive performances,

So when you get to that Championship, everyone there is demonstrating the utmost levels of offensive abilities, including your opponent, and (talent and play) on defense, plus offense, are to a point where ,, well:
If everybodys a perfect player offense has an advantage, even if it's slight,

Thus the phrase! when you get there, the "play" not the "talent" , because we'll assume at this said championship everybody's a perfect(ish) player,

and if so, the offense has the advantage, Wherein!!!

The phrase defense wins championships, is correct because,
The Defense, that rises it's level of "Play", on the day, to meet that disadvantage "wins championships"

But if you never have the offense, which the team rarely does, you continue in 3rd/4th place division finishes, weeded out of getting near that championship which "defense wins".

Now, On the again subject of McCoy trade for Duke straight up,

I might hold the view it's less of a win for the Browns on a sliding scale as the Browns', (before the trade), talent on the D-line slides more toward a great D-line, vs sliding the other way toward being a D-line with needs and holes that'll get exploited.

You said, " McCoy will contribute the entire year and do so at a higher level"

I feel the same way, but let me rank who I feel the same way about.

These Browns, we'll include McCoy, let's say McCoy joind the Browns via trade, I feel these Browns will contribute the entire year and do so at a higher level.

Level 1, Level 2, Level 3,

Myles Garrett 1,
Trevon Coley 2,
Larry Ogunjobi 2,
Sheldon Richardson 1
Olivier Vernon 2,
Chris Smith 3,
Chad Thomas 3,

Gerald McCoy, 1, so we'll say McCoy is #1 level, and I think #3 still means these guys will contribute the entire year and at a higer level,

My point being, if the above was worse, then the McCoy trade would become more attractive.

the attractive thing about McCoy would be that his salary has 0 guaranteed money after this year

I listed our run defense on the Concerns thread. That information you posted is relevant. According to the information that Grateful posted, McCoy could help us defend the run.

I would be happy if we acquired him.

j/c

I wonder if Chad Thomas is playing a factor in the Browns not signing or trading for a DT. It's said the Browns are high on him. His bio page says he played in 4 games in 2018, with no stats. I honestly don't remember seeing him at all. It would be wonderful of he's been a gem hiding on our bench this whole time due to injury, but I have my doubts.

is Thomas seen as an inside dt or an edge guy?

I think that he is seen as a guy who can do both, but his size would probably indicate DE.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that McCoy is a 3-Tech DT.

McCoy is, but Chad Thomas is a versatile inside.out guy.

j/c

McCoy has more leverage than the average vet here.

The Bucs don't want to lose him for nothing. I have no idea if they face a dead cap blitz if he's released. He's unlikely to voluntarily take a paycut when he can wait-it-out and see if a new team acquires him WITH his new contract...however unlikely that is.

If what I'm gathering on the interwebs is correct, there are only two teams that COULD reasonably absorb his existing contract right now - us and the Raiders.

McCoy holds the cards in any trade negotiation where the acquiring team wants to re-negotiate his contract. He can agree to renegotiate if traded to a team he desires...he can just-say-no to renegotiating with a team he does not desire.

McCoy may also consider his playing situation on his new team. He is unlikely to be a starter here...but is most-likely a starter with the Raiders. His additional consideration is that the Browns are sitting IN a playoff window - a place where McCoy has never been. While the Raiders are trying to build that same window but just have some pieces/parts right now.

I'd like to keep Duke, but if he's what it takes to get McCoy (with a renegotiated deal) then I'm all in. FWIW, don't sleep on the UDFA RB from Miami Trayone Gray - 6'1" 233 and ran a 4.37 at his pro day (4.48 at the combine). THAT is after recover from a knee injury. Low miles...willing to play FB or RB...injured and stuck behind some good RBs during his career.