DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum McCoy continued ...

I agree about Garrett ... I'd trust our FO/coaches one million times more than a player. He's showing loyalty and faith in his teammates

HOW THE BROWNS COULD AFFORD GERALD MCCOY
How are the Browns amassing talent? By paying for it. Why were they lacking talent before? Partially because they were saving money for talent now.

The fact that the Browns are able to bid for the services of defensive tackle Gerald McCoy -- who likely will command something in the area of $10 million a season and could make a decision Tuesday with the Browns a real contender for his services -- is a direct reflection of the fact that the Browns rolled over more salary cap money than any team in the league.

They’re on track to have eight players among the top 200 salary-cap hits in the league, when only the Los Angeles Rams (10) and Minnesota Vikings (nine) have more. How can the Browns still potentially add McCoy, who could become their ninth player in the top 200? Because they didn’t waste salary-cap space on mediocre players in 2016 and 2017 while attempting to be mediocre instead of awful.

They actually didn’t even spend money on some solid players, those who could have helped them go 2-14 instead of 0-16. As a result, they can now chase a player who could help them reach the AFC Championship instead of losing in the first round of the playoffs.

For instance, I’m not saying cutting Joe Haden before the 2017 season, when Hue Jackson and 90 percent of the fan base freaked out, is what is allowing the Browns to pay Olivier Vernon, Sheldon Richardson and Odell Beckham as new additions, while still pursuing McCoy … but moves like that sure are part of it.

This isn’t another Sashi Brown story from me. It’s only a description of the now, and a team that is spending more than $211 million this season on players ready to help them win. That’s more than any other team in the league, according to the salary-cap figures from spotrac.com, the excellent site for all financial issues in professional sports.

In what spotrac calls the cap space allocated to active players, the Browns lead the league as one of five teams over $200 million. In the rest of the AFC North, Pittsburgh is at $197 million, Cincinnati $191 million and Baltimore $166 million.

Again, why should the Browns be division favorites? "Because their roster costs more" isn’t a terrible answer.

Yet the Browns are still in the top five in the league in remaining cap space. How? Because they rolled over more cap space than any team in previous years. How? By not wasting it on players who weren’t going to make them a playoff team.

Teams must spend 89 percent of the salary cap over a four-year period. But if you save some money in one year, you can use it the next year. Right now, John Dorsey and the Browns are using it. That’s how the Browns can have these eight players among the top 200 cap hits.

26. Odell Beckham, $17 million

40. Olivier Vernon, $15.5 million

62. Jarvis Landry, $14.05 million

147. Sheldon Richardson, $9.67 million

163. Damarious Randall, $9.07 million

172. T.J. Carrie, $8.9 million

188. Myles Garrett, $8.29 million

192. Christian Kirksey, $8.2 million

Now let’s look at how many Browns ranked among the top 200 cap hits in the league in previous years, with a reminder of what that number of high-paid players meant to the team’s record.

2018: 4 in the top 200 (7-8-1)

2017: 4 in the top 200 (0-16)

2016: 3 in the top 200 (1-15)

2015: 8 in the top 200 (3-13)

2014: 7 in the top 200 (7-9)

2013: 7 in the top 200 (4-12)

What do those numbers tell us?

To me, it shows that the Browns for years were paying a lot of players who helped winning only to a small degree -- that’s how you get eight highly paid players and a 3-13 record in 2015. It also explains how the Browns can be spending so much now, because they had half as many highly paid players the last three years.

Look, for instance, at the eight Browns among the top 200 cap hits in 2015.

35. Joe Haden, $11.7 million

49. Joe Thomas, $10.2 million

80. Paul Kruger, $8.2 million

86. Alex Mack, $8.0 million

121. Desmond Bryant, $7 million

142. Donte Whitner, $6.75 million

150. Tramon Williams, $6.5 million

186. Karlos Dansby, $5.5 million

If you don’t think players like Kruger, Bryant, Whitner, Williams and Dansby can make you a playoff team, then you can’t keep them around at those prices. Four of those five didn’t play for the Browns after 2015, and Williams was gone after 2016. But there’s also no point in replacing them with players of equal talent and salary if they’re getting you nowhere.

So the Browns saved.

Here is their rollover cap money from the last six offseasons.

2013 into 2014: $24.5 million

2014 into 2015: $18.9 million

2015 into 2016: $20.7 million

2016 into 2017: $50.1 million

2017 into 2018: $58.9 million

2018 into 2019: $56.5 million

In each of the last two offseasons, the Browns rolled over more cap space than any team in the league. That won’t be the case next offseason. The Browns are spending, and spending smartly, they hope.

But they were also spending for the sake of spending in previous seasons. And then that stopped.

Their 2016 rollover of $20.7 million was a lot, the third-most in the league. But in 2017, the $50.1 million rollover led the league, $10 million more than any team.

The 2018 rollover of $58.9 million made the Browns and 49ers the only two teams rolling over more than $31 million.

The 2019 rollover of $56.5 million led the league again and made them and the Colts the only teams with over $35 million of rollover.

The rollover stays with you. So, for instance, when the Browns rolled over $24.5 million into 2014, then only had an $18.9 rollover into 2015, that means they were actually over the regular cap in 2015 -- and they ate into their rollover.

What happened then was the Browns made a huge jump in their savings between 2016 and 2017, adding $30 million to it. Then the Browns held that amount, and added a bit to it, while biding their time on when to spend it.

That created a huge edge, and now the Browns are cashing in.

The other component of this is one we have written about a lot and will continue to write about: the fact that the Browns are in the midst of a relatively cheap contract with their franchise quarterback.

Of the 15 teams in the league with at least seven players making $8 million or more this season, all but four count a quarterback as one of those expensive players: Only Dallas (Dak Prescott), Chicago (Mitch Trubisky), the Jets (Sam Darnold) and the Browns do not.

When your most important player isn’t among your most highly paid, that’s another edge. That’s why the Browns are in a window to win right now in the next three years, before Mayfield’s salary will balloon.

But you really change the game by adding the franchise QB money you’re saving now to the money you already saved in the past.

That’s how you get a $211 million team to believe in.


3 BROWNS WHO ARE BIG PARTS OF THEIR CAP NOW, WHO WON’T BE IN THE FUTURE

The Browns are paying right tackle Chris Hubbard good money again this season. They'll have to figure out whether to keep doing it next season.

3. The tackles
Almost all of the most expensive players would apply here. Kirksey would cost almost $10 million on the cap in 2020, or $2.4 million to get out of his deal. The Browns may move on.

Randall is in the final year of his rookie deal as the fifth-highest-paid Brown, and nothing has happened yet in regards to his future.

The three-year deal Richardson signed is really a two-year deal because it costs so little for the Browns to get out of year three, so he might be 2019, 2020 and gone.

But that’s how it works. For years, the Browns didn’t have enough players worth spending money on. Now, they’ll have too many.

So left tackle Greg Robinson and right tackle Chris Hubbard both have to prove they’re worth the money this season. Robinson signed a one-year, $7 million contract and will be a free agent this season. Actually, the window to retain him may be quite small. If he’s too good, the Browns probably can’t afford him, and if he’s not good enough, they won’t want him.

Hubbard is a $7.3 million cap hit this season in year two of the five-year contract the Browns signed him to before last season, luring him away from Pittsburgh. He’s due to make $7.3 million again in 2020, or the Browns could cut ties and take a $2.4 million cap hit.

So it’s Robinson and Hubbard protecting Mayfield on the edge this year. It’s hard to imagine both back in 2020.

2. T.J Carrie
His huge four-year, $31 million contract hasn’t transformed the defense, but the Browns had to ride it out through at least this season. They would have taken a $10.2 million cap hit otherwise. But after this season, that changes. The Browns can easily get out of this deal without much penalty after this season.

The Browns have said they want five corners they can rely upon, and Carrie did rank fifth in defensive snaps a year ago. He’s been sticking at that slot corner position in OTAs, while Denzel Ward, Greedy Williams and Terence Mitchell have manned the outside. Slot corner is a vital spot, but maybe not at an $8 million cap hit for a team that may start feeling a squeeze next year.


1. Olivier Vernon
With a cap hit of $15.5 million this season in year four of a five-year contract he originally signed in New York, Vernon will carry the same big number in the final year of his deal next year. The

Browns view him as a game-changer paired with Myles Garrett, but if he stays beyond these two years, at which point he’ll be 30 with nine years in the league, it would have to be at a reduced rate. Because by then, the Browns would need to pay Garrett.

The Browns could even get out of Vernon’s contract after this season with no dead cap hit. But most likely, this pairing of a veteran defensive end and young defensive end will change in 2021, with Garrett becoming the veteran and the Browns looking in the draft for an end to become the younger, cheaper option.

The Browns are done saving. Now they’re paying. But at some point, they won’t be able to pay everyone. Tough decisions are ahead -- but that’s a price you’ll happily pay for a playoff push you’ve been saving for. In the moment, that saving gives the Browns a real shot at McCoy.

https://expo.cleveland.com/sports/g66l-2...-3rd-short.html

So we just kept doing what we've been doing since 2013.

Translation: I didn't bother to read the article.

We've been rolling cap over since 2013. Nice try though.

With Gerald McCoy set to visit Ravens, is there still space for standout defensive tackle?

By Jonas Shaffer, Contact Reporter
The Baltimore Sun

May 28, 2019

Needing to clear salary cap space and unable to find a willing trade partner, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers last week “mutually parted ways” with defensive tackle Gerald McCoy, a six-time Pro Bowl selection. That there’s strong interest across the NFL in the 31-year-old should not come as a surprise; that the Ravens are reportedly among those suitors, however, is something of an eye-opener.

McCoy was set to make $13 million in his 10th season with Tampa Bay. The Buccaneers’ newly signed replacement, defensive tackle Ndamukong Suh, signed a one-year deal worth up to $10 million. If McCoy is willing to take a pay cut in the interest of bolstering a playoff contender — the former No. 3 overall pick has not advanced to the postseason in his career — what might he realistically settle for?

The Ravens have little wiggle room. Free-agent signings Earl Thomas and Mark Ingram II were not cheap; their salary cap hits rank among the 13 biggest on the team for 2019. With five of the Ravens’ eight draft picks signed, general manager Eric DeCosta has about $13 million in space available. Deals for unsigned picks Marquise “Hollywood” Brown, Jaylon Ferguson and Miles Boykin, once complete, will eat approximately another $2 million.

With conventional wisdom dictating that NFL front offices leave themselves at least a few million dollars for emergency midseason signings, the Ravens will unlikely be able to offer McCoy a contract worth $10 million-plus in 2019. (The Browns certainly could, and perhaps the Bengals, too.) DeCosta could free up space by restructuring contracts already on the books, delaying guaranteed money until years ahead, but his strategy so far with new signings and extensions has favored “flat” annual rates.

"The only time we consider restructuring guys’ deals is [if] there is a player that comes available that we think has great value and is worth us restructuring a deal to get it done," former general manager Ozzie Newsome, who once called the strategy a “last resort,” said in 2013. "But it has to be a player that we think has a pretty good chance of playing out his contract, because that’s when you get in trouble. If you restructure a deal, then all the sudden that player’s abilities fall off the cliff and you have to let him go, then you have to eat all that acceleration right away."

Even with the big names returning along the Ravens’ defensive line, as well as those still yet to break out, there is space for a talent like McCoy. In Tampa Bay, he recorded at least six sacks every year from 2012 to 2018; Brandon Williams, Willie Henry, Chris Wormley and Brent Urban combined for 3½ last season in Baltimore. Michael Pierce finished the year without one.

The Ravens are rich with interior defensive linemen, but there’s little overlap with McCoy’s best-utilized deployment. Williams and Pierce typically line up over the center or in a center-guard gap; fifth-round pick Daylon Mack did the same at Texas A&M.

According to Pro Football Focus, McCoy has had just 290 career snaps at nose tackle, compared with 2,767 at defensive tackle and 1,010 at defensive end. Last season, he worked primarily as a three-technique defensive tackle, aligned on the outside shoulder of the guard, a position that allows him to shoot upfield and pressure the pocket. In 14 games, McCoy had six sacks and 21 quarterback hits, the latter of which would have been second most on the Ravens.

Urban, now with the Tennessee Titans, Henry and Wormley shared most of the snaps last season at the three-technique, normally flanked by an edge rusher like Terrell Suggs and a nose tackle like Williams. Given the Ravens’ offseason losses — Suggs joined the Arizona Cardinals, Za’Darius Smith the Green Bay Packers — and the defense’s schematic flexibility, it’s unclear how the Ravens would want to roll out their best front seven.

Would coordinator Don “Wink” Martindale call on Henry for pass-rushing downs almost exclusively? Would Wormley continue to be a rotational player, helping McCoy to stay fresh but never earning the lion’s share of snaps? If Ferguson proves most useful as a down lineman, rather than a stand-up linebacker coming off the edge, how does that affect the Ravens’ alignment?

Those are questions for possibly another day. The Ravens will pay their interior defensive linemen over $20 million this season, according to Over The Cap. Now they have to decide the value of adding McCoy — and convince him it’s the right price at the right place, too.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bs-sp-ravens-gerald-mccoy-visit-20190527-story.html

So does almost every team. But is it as superficial as saying the same thing you just did?

No. No it is not.

An Early Look at the Cleveland Browns' 2013 Salary Cap Situation

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1277...y-cap-situation

Cleveland Browns Set to Have About $45.46 Million in Cap Space

One reason the Browns' cap space is high is because they are rolling over $24.54 million of the space they had in 2013. The salary cap has been estimated at $126.3 million for the upcoming season, so when you factor in the amount the Browns are rolling over, their salary cap is estimated at $150.84 million, which is the highest figure in the NFL. Let's break these numbers down in a more formalized manner:

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2014/2/9/5...on-in-cap-space

Cleveland Browns have third most cap space in 2015

https://waitingfornextyear.com/2015/02/cleveland-browns-third-cap-space-2015/

You are referencing information already illustrated in the article, but, ummm,...thanks?

I think this might add more credence to my earlier point that you didn't even read the article.

I'm surprised you don't have a firm grasp of the obvious here and realize nothing really changed from 2012 until Dorsey got here.

Dawg .... u realize your beating a dead horse with menZas that think VG is overpaid but wish the dude who brought us Kenny Britt was still here .... i guess bringing VG here with their hero’s QB rooms would have been a complete waste of VG’s talent .... ...

The whole thing is funny. There was a ton of draft picks and cap space when their God got here.

One of his biggest supporters screams how the biggest reason for our teams turn around will be Baker. And I agree with that.

But Sashi had zero to do with Baker being here. Our 0-16 record did. But do you ever hear them thanking Hue for that?

just clickin'

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2019/05/28/gerald-mccoy-likely-sign-less-play-cleveland-browns/


How often have we been able to say that?

Are we a winner yet?

Bigger question is if this is true, why is he not signed yet

There is talk about how Balt had the top defense last year and how that may influence McCoy. But with the loss of Mosley, Smith, Suggs and Weddle I think Balt will have difficulties repeating that.

I know they signed Thomas to replace Weddle, but their D still took some hits.

The article was speculative.

j/c

Why on earth are we discussing Sashi/Hue in this thread? Egad...

If I had a dollar for every time I had that thought!

As of an hour ago, McCoy's visit in Baltimore was still ongoing, per the following ...

Last person always has the advantage. I feel the longer he stays the more our chance goes down. But it’s up to him if he wants to lose twice a year to the team he could have went to. You can’t look at these two teams and think right now you have a better chance there

That sounds ominous (for us)...

I've got a question!

Why would he want to play in a 3-4 defense instead of a 4-3? ( more or less ).

I would think he would be way more comfortable with the Browns setup.

I said from the time he left from his visit .. we are done. If you let him out the door without signing him .. you have lost him. If you have the first visit .. you make it the last visit. Do not let him out the door without a signature on the contract.

Because no one plays their base defense.

Possibly so, but the guy makes his living covering the Ravens, so take it with a grain of salt. Nobody really knows what McCoy's thinking, or what he'll do.

Yep I said that too. There’s something he doesn’t think he can get or do here or there’s no reason to go anywhere else. It’s like getting offered your dream job and say well I have another interview so I’m gonna hit that and get back with you

Free agent defensive tackle Gerald McCoy left the Ravens facility a little after 7 pm after arriving in the afternoon. No word on where contract talks stand.

@jamisonhensley

Free agent defensive tackle Gerald McCoy is on his way to have dinner with Ravens coaches and players. Ravens still courting him. Was told visit has been “great.”

@jamisonhensley

Well this aint good

I didn’t think we really had a shot. Going to take a couple of winning seasons to lose the stigma

I think you mean, no one plays their base defense 100% of the time. Would it be safe to say they will be in a 3-4, 60% of the time?

I guess to be a little more detailed, where exactly will he line up when their not in their base defense?

Will he be working inside with another tackle? Or play the rush end? Maybe the nose?

Are they now looking to pressure up the middle with the loss of some key personal? Are they going to tinker with a successful defensive philosophy & 10 million to bring in a situational pass rushing 30 yr. old?

I guess they must have an incredible re-tooled plan & a lot of faith in the reborn Vegan to comprehend those type changes.

Base or not, McCoy knows he fits best in the scheme that got him here & floating around as a situational guy may not be the best way to rejuvenate his career.

At least with a true 4-3 defense, he can fit well into a rotation, feel comfortable & fresh in his role of giving solid push on the inside on any down.

With all that said, I'm still not sure he's worth almost a third of our remaining salary cap, but he's a way better fit here than Baltimore.

They ran their base defense 15% of the time last year.

They run a lot of 2-4-5, 3-3-5 and various dime formations. He'll still be playing 3T or an end in their defense.

Of course the visit went great. Who sets up a crappy visit?

He either wants to be here or he doesn't . If he is fine. If he isnt that's fine too. Why sweat it?...

There D took a HUGE HIT ... and i mean HUGE ... Thomas for Weddle is an upgrade but they lost their ENTIRE PASS RUSH ..

If McCoy signs with the rats it means winning is not near as high on his wish list as he says ... cause these guys weren’t that good last year and they went BACKWARDS in the offseason and not just by one step ... lets face it we had the weakest division in our conference and they won the division by default ... i’m still not sure how Pitt loses to the faiders and donks down the stretch ...

This is actually as good a landing spot as their is if he doesn’t sign with us ... if he was serious about winning he’d be looking at the Pats, Chefs, Colts or 3 or 4 other teams ....

This don’t look good and thats a bummer ... what a rotation and DEPTH we would have had ... having him would have been SWEEEEEEEET ...

Oh well ... it don’t look good but u never know ... if he really wants to win this isn’t over yet ...

Come On Gerald ... DO THE RIGHT THING ...

I am not ready to write off McCoy. He left there without signing a contract much like he did here. Leaving Cleveland without signing was expected as he said he wanted to honor his commitment to visit Balt. I get that.

To me, leaving Balt without signing a deal is more telling than leaving Cle without doing so. Maybe I am misreading things.

I think we have a really good DL. But I think adding McCoy would be a huge deal. Huge.

Not stressing. Null sheen, neh? Either he is a star with us or just another guy to beat.

Just win, baby!

I love your takes sometimes... I agree with you here.

Happy birthday, Cap!


My bet is that we sign McCoy. Call it a hunch... but I don't know if you're a defensive player who wants to have fun and win why would you pass the chance to play on a line with 3 other pro bowlers?

McCoy signs here... he must!