DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2019 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 19 Broncos 24 Postgame Thoughts

I still believe Baker has the physical tools and brains to be a very good QB for us for a long time. Something is obviously wrong this year whether it's the scheme or coaching. I think with the proper coaching and scheme he will be fine. We saw it last year.

So what? I just watched a QB, who half the country said needed to change positions, go through his reads and progressions and stomp the undefeated patriots.

Apparently it ain’t too complicated for a guy who everyone was roasting about...what was it again? That wonderlic score?

So what does it say about bakers inability to read defenses that a guy people on this board was calling stupid is playing better than baker?

I’m sick of the excuses people give this dude. If baker mayfield can only be good when he has an imaginary chip on his shoulder and EVERYTHING has to be perfect, then we drafted the wrong dude.

Every week it’s a new excuse.

I think its a combination of baker not being that good but also I think coaching matters. I don't want to judge baker fully until he has competent coaching..zampese got the best out of baker..

We also saw the rookie from Arizona have a good game against SF D who torched Baker...

Baker should be benched and see if he can progress... playing him is not helping.

Baker can't diagnose the D, not even when the flaws are staring at him, that's the biggest problem.

One question I think is reasonable to ask is if Lamar were on the Browns and Mayfield on the Ravens, do you think each would be having the same success or lack of success?

You know I'm the last guy to make excuses for Baker, but coaching matters. Organizations matter.

Not to take anything away from Lamar but do you think Harbaugh is doing anything other than running a scheme that plays to his strengths? Can you say Freddie is setting Baker up for success equivalent to what Harbaugh, Kingsbury, or even what Reich is doing in Indy with Brissett?

Baker does need to get better. I don’t think anyone disagrees with that. And if Freddie was a quality coach I’d put more responsibility on Baker.

Plus, we actually win games when we run the one read offense he’s being criticized of being limited to. So yeah, so what? Baker stands a better chance of improving to a QB who can make more than one read when you play to his strengths and build from there not subject him to inconsistent and inappropriate play calling and a team culture that lacks any structure.

I don't think benching Baker is a bad idea but it has to be done under the guise of an injury.

Each and every week I have watched, waiting to see the Browns clean up some of the things that have been killing them.... I'm also pretty fair (I think) in grading on the curve based on who we have been playing and the schedule up until this week was BRUTAL... which is why I had a particular interest in this week.. so this week.

We started with a nice defensive series, so I wanted to see how our first possession went:
1. Holding call on a punt that was fair caught. Cost us 10 yards in field position, a recurring problem.
2. Chubb ran great on his first couple touches, as he has all year.
3. Landry drops a slant pass that could have gone for nice yardage.
4. Mayfield fails to see the LB hidden behind the 2OL/2DL who are bunched up on the right side of the line and throws what could have been an INT.

Possession over... stupid penalty, dropped ball, poor read... same crap that has happened week in and week out... it took a few more possessions before we got to the head scratching play call, but everybody knew it was coming.

This "team" just feels like it has ZERO veteran leadership... it's just a collection of talent and egos and NOBODY is stepping up to demand accountability from others, probably because NOBODY is playing at a level worthy of being the loudest voice.. well Chubb probably is but unfortunately he's the quietest guy in the room by nature...

Somebody needs to be THAT GUY who tells Baker to keep his mouth shut at least until he's playing better... to tell Landry and OBJ that when you are on a team that was supposed to be a contender and you are 2-5.. nobody gives a flying rats arse what kind of statement you want to make with your SHOES...

And I guess Dorsey is the only guy who could pull Freddie in and ask him why on some of the plays that could have potentially saved our season, that were running plays.. Chubb was standing beside him. WTF bro?

who gets the joy of injuring him though

I said during game, I was hoping for a hang nail on his throwing hand. If Gilbert comes in and has a better grasp of the offense then we know we have an issue with baker. By all accounts, gilbert seemed to look more confident in where to go with the ball than baker in preseason. Some guys it just clicks for. I think nothing is clicking for anyone because coaching is failing.. players do what they are coached to do.. if i hear freddie say "I don't coach penalties" one more time... Someone needs to ask "What do you coach?"

From what I've seen, Lamar Jackson is being asked to do about the exact same thing he was asked to do last year and he has gotten better at it which is why he's having more success...

To you and Rish:

Honestly I don’t know.

Why? Because I highly doubt Lamar would have much influence on who the HC is in 2019 like baker did. Because there’s little doubt in my mind that one if the big reasons kitchens is here is because baker advocated for it.

So that’s why I can’t start history at this point. My views are big picture that goes back to the 2018 draft class and the start of last season.

Devil, I have to really push back, because baker was ABSOLUTELY reading defenses last season. He went through his progressions as if he’s been in the league for 5 years. Excl brought up an excellent example a few post ago about that.

I understand and have brought it up all season that we aren’t running the same scheme and such. So a lot of it has to do with Freddie, and Dorsey for even hiring the guy in the first place.

The other aspect, however, is something that while it’s more speculation, it becomes more a glaring question that needs to be answered:

How much work did baker put into his game during the offseason compared to Lamar?

Remember, Lamar went 6-1, won the division and got a home playoff game his rookie season. And yet browns fans - which most certainly included me - but damn near the entire country anointed baker as the second coming of farve or something, even though he just LOST to Lamar at the end of the season.

Baker takes blame simply for buying into his own hype. National commercial spots, GQ magazine, etc etc.

The guy who ACTUALLY deserved the hype took the entire offseason to work on his game.

That’s individual work ethic right there. Can’t blame the organization for baker not having self discipline. You just can’t. Yes, the scheme is bad, and yes Freddie blows.

But at the end of the day, there have been too many times where baker had the chance to take over the game, put his team in his back and go out and get the W.

He couldn’t do it against the titans. He couldn’t do it against the rams. He couldn’t do it against Seattle, and he couldn’t do it against the 2-6 broncos.

These are grown men now. College is in the rear view mirror. And yet mayfield is not acting like the leader of this football team. He’s acting like he’s owed something for finishing 3rd in the division.

Organizations can’t teach character, no matter how great or terrible it might be.

funny the two qb's with the biggest ego's in draft (mayfield/rosen) have turned out to be the worst of the QB's in year two.

I honestly don't know how much either put into their game... I think it's telling though that between Baker, Juice, OBJ, etc, that at no point did they work TOGETHER.. that's the part that shows. I won't speculate on who might have wanted to and who didn't but it never happened.

I also don't buy into the fact that doing a few photo shoots and commercials is an indicator.. those take a couple days worth of time and a ton of young players do them...

Maybe Baker bought into his own hype and just assumed because they were all buddies that it would just come together..

Maybe OBJ was sulking and feeling butt hurt by the NYGs and didn't want to participate..

I have no idea but lack of cohesion and being on the same page is pretty obvious to anybody watching.

And that’s why I said it’s speculation.

But there are plenty of unsolved questions that need to be answered. Because I said it before that even with Lamar improving as a passer, baker mayfield should be the best QB of the draft based on passing ability.

And yet he regressed. And let me clear, I’m HOPING to the stars that the issue is as simple as Freddie kitchens sucking and needs to be fired. I really hope that’s about 95% of the issue, because if it is, then long term baker will prove me right when I said during the offseason he will win us 3 titles.

But it ain’t looking too good right now.

As we are speculating... Baker's skillset is going to live or die on reading defense and accuracy (which is about mechanics)... if he wants to get back on the right track, those are the two things he needs to focus on.. not getting bulky and strong.. read defenses, hit the target from 30 yards.. that's it.

I'm there too. Right now, there's a big ego problem with pretty much all of our big three, in Dorsey, Kitchens and Baker. It seems like all of them just sat back and figured they could do no wrong after how we ended last season.

Of the three though, Kitchens has never been in this role, and it doesn't help that he's got the OC role on top of that. At least Baker and Dorsey have shown they can get the job done in their current capacity, in the past. That's why I'm sort of hoping like you that if they get rid of Kitchens that maybe everything else will sort itself out. But there also need to be a good deal of pride-swallowing and getting back to work from the other two.

Get rid of Freddie, and the entire roster eat a full plate of humble pie during the offseason.

And we have a decent shot at getting back on track.

I think it’s fair to assume Baker didn’t put int the work he should have. I also think it’s fair and probably more right than we’ll ever know that many of the key players just assumed it would all come together. But that again comes down to Freddie not doing his job. He’s the one who told Baker to get away from football for a couple months. Baker clearly doesn’t know what it takes to be a professional QB, and that’s ok. I wouldn’t expect him to at such an early juncture. Instead of trying to be his friend, Freddie should have sat him down, shown him the compliments of others like Drew Brees and said “here’s what you need to do to be successful in the NFL”.

Baker is smarter than he’s playing. But he’s also bought in to whatever Freddie was selling and he can’t figure out why things aren’t turning out how he was told they would. He needs to mature, he needs to be humbled, but how the hell can that happen when his HC needs the same things himself?

Past Freddie though, our veterans have provided 0 leadership. I feel like Landry was that guy last year, but now he has his buddie OBJ, he’s more concerned with shoes than he is being a leader. I’m probably wrong, but i can’t recall a game last year where Jarvis got involved with any of that diva behavior.

It really sucks bro that as I type this, I’m starting to feel sorry for a guy like Chubb. That same feeling we all had when JoeT was here and you wanted him to experience a good season. This team doesn’t deserve a guy like Chubb but I garuntee the man will go out and perform every week anyway

I think this hasnt been discussed, or i have missed it. But this is a HUGE point. Jarvis was the leader last year, whether he wanted to be or not. We saw it on camera, we saw it with Haley going to jarvis regarding Higgins, and we saw it on the field. When Jarvis got "juiced" and made a big play, or a big block - the team then played behind him.

My brother said when OBJ came along that he thought it woudl be bad for Jarvis. OBJ is the outspoken one, hes the the "flash" and the better talent. So he said "this could backfire and push Jarvis aside as a leader as all the focus will be on OBJ and Jarvis will be playing catch up to him".

I definately see that as have happened. Last year we rallied with Jarvis - with Bless em shirts and his leadership. This year, hes worried about wearing gold cleats to look good with OBJ.

I hope they both realize, if they dont win - dont matter how many 1 handers they grab, the fame will go away.

umm Darnold

Josh Allen not exactly having a great year either.

Has a decent Def. and hasn't played anyone yet other than NE who he threw 3 picks too.

It wasn’t just Zampese, Al Saunders has a big play in that too. Zampese leaned on Saunders long time league experience. Man I wish we could get Al Saunders back too

this is not true..while i'm sure saunders helped some...Zampese knew that offense inside and out and was the QB coach. His dad helped create the Air Coryell. Zampese worked directly with Mike Martz and was instrumental in the "greatest show on turf" I think people are underestimating how good an offensive mind Zampese was..He's same one that made Jon Kitna and Andy Dalton look serviceable and helped Palmer and the bengals have one of the best passing attacks in the nfl at the time. Wylie even mentioned the outburst last year was because of Zampese

He's also the guy that got himself fired for (allegedly) single-handedly driving the Bengals O into the ground.

Good point .. OBJ is our new ALPHA male and it simply isn’t working. He’s taken that swag away from Baker and Landry, and now they’re just followers. Not how they excel.

Absolutely.

In the opposite situation Mayfield would be excelling while Lamar would be struggling and half the fanbase would be talking about how we need top move him to RB and draft a real QB next year.

As much as Mahomes went to the perfect situation in Kansas City, Lamar went to the perfect situation in Baltimore. Coaching matters.

Maybe we don't need to jump off the deep end?



Maybe the team isn't as good as was hyped?

Maybe it needs time to grow and season.



I am not jumping of the bridge until next year......join me.

My internet went down, so I missed some of the game

-Hubbard stinks, that whole right side stinks...

-Wyatt Teller looked lost, and got away with a couple of holds...Have no idea how he let Von Miller go by clean...Saw him blocking later in the game, with his head turned the opposite way...looked in over his head.

-Schobert/Whitehead missed something in their zones and let a big pass get behind Scho.

-Whitehead blows, glad he's gone...sad thing is, I think Eric Murray is just as bad (though he didn't play because of injury)

-Greedy had a couple of bad penalties, specially on his hold on special teams when we didn't even return it.

-I don't trust a single secondary player to make a game saving tackle...and it showed true once again multiple times.

-Mack Wilson's rampant nature is nice to see...His energy is great

-Chad Thomas got held early in the game, not called

-Demetrius Harris body control sucks

-I hope RSJ is ok, knee injury didnt look good (ditto to vernon)

--OBJ and Landry look like MoMass and Robiskie in this offense.

-There has to be something deeper going on with Higgins not playing much or at all...Not sure how he isn't seeing the field, when he and Baker have always had a great connection.

-Hodge (claimed off waivers) played more than Higgins, Taylor, and Ratley (Dorsey drafted Ratley, and traded a later pick for Taywan Taylor)

-Calloway had a huge grab and run...did a great job holding onto the ball when being grabbed two different directions.

-Hilliard pass blocking got better, was was one of the worst blocking backs early in the season.

-Chubb had nowhere to go most of the day....ran hard regardless.

-Remember this monsterous front 4? extremely overrated...

-Speaking of front 4...Wilkes must somehow think they are superb, as we rushed mainly 4 all evening...and they didn't do a whole lot.

-I see why we run a lot of 2 LB sets....Adarius Taylor blows...Man we miss Kirksey.

-We gave a QB (his first ever start) very vanilla D and barely pressured him...We allowed him to make plays...sad and that should not be allowed. The game is all about mismatches, and we NEVER find the good part of a mismatch.

-Not going to harp on Myles as he's clearly our best D player...But like I noted before he much more of a Simeon Rice type.

-Baker surely still plays and seems confused...His pocket awareness was a little better in this one. I still have a hard time figuring out why we haven't been more proactive in getting him in position/plays to be more successful...As when he is successful, the team is....very easy....But idk why coaches make this harder thna it has to be.

-Empty backfield...unless its 3rd and a mile...please stop

-Routes run in a bundle location...Not working (I think that's a product of Monken, not sure) These are not being executed right, its bringing in more defenders and interceptions...Seems to be confusing Baker as well (His WR options are bunched up, and being covered by multiple defenders in a small area...He is pausing as its too combobulated.

-Kitchens blunders...This guy isn't learning either.

-Still too many penalties, and several were declined as well.

-Lindsay was the most dynamic player on the field....How come we can't ever have that?

This team is just sad...Cardinals and Raiders are a lot better than us, let that sink in.

We say this every year.

At some point the Browns just need to start winning. It's not up to the fan base to figure it out either.

I wouldn't mind them moving actually. It would release me from the torment I experience every year. I've only enjoyed watching the Browns once this year...against Baltimore. I enjoyed the week after leading up to San Fran and even predicted a victory. It's been craptastic before and since.

I don't enjoy my Sundays. I know that's a me problem but I just don't know how to turn the love I have for this team off. To me it represents my family and where my parents come from. I wish I didn't care so much. It's stupid to care so much about an entity that doesn't care about you but again, it's what it represents for me and the emotions behind that.

I still remember me and my dad and our family friend from Cleveland at our home in Georgia standing a foot from our 60 inch big screen tube TV cheering our butts off to Clay Matthews iintercepting Kelly in '89. Great childhood memory. I can't turn it off. Man, I hate this team.

The guys they hire to come here and the players they select to play here, they don't give two craps about me or the city of Cleveland or what this team represents to so many.

Man, I hate this team.

Well said. It's so painful.

Sunday has become synonymous with watching my dad be angry and sad. That's no way to live.

I feel you man...Sunday's are full of misery continually...it weighs heavily on all of us...and makes us all frustrated...I think we would all be elated if our team finished 8-8 every year...least it would be worthy to watch the team play...But for us fans, asking for .500 ball is unfortunately too much.

“Man, I hate this team.”
Said by every fan of every team in every sport at one point or another since the dawn of time.

and they kept showing it over and over again in replays.
He wasn't held, he was outright HUGGED.

Postgame thought:

The island receded toward the horizon, as a cold current slowly parted the battered survivor and the safety of dry land. Clinging desperately to the driftwood, his mind drifted back to that August, and the travel brochure that had seduced his vacation money from him.

He shook his head slowly with a sad, wry grin and said to himself: "Just my luck. I should have known..."

That's when he felt something bump his leg.

That is beautiful, lol!

Who knew the ferry to the Island was the USS Indianapolis??


"Farewell and adieu...."

Oh man, that was great.........

.... . The promised cruise ship turned out to be a leaky garbage scow...

Starring Tom Hanks as DiamDawg.