Well Shobert and Landry have, so I guess they are not great.
As far as your other references, I was simply pointing out that we don't know how they would react.
And the thing about the military, if they have a leader that is not motivating their troops to run into battle head on, face and overcome adversity - typically they will rectify that leader and relive him of his duties as soon as possible.
In a war the number of officers shot on the backs is always the greatest...
1. Get rid of Dorsey 2. Get rid of Kitchens 3. Hire Nick Caserio as GM & President of Football Operations (Bill Bellichik's right hand man and Director of Player Personnel since 2008) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Caserio
Caserio does NOT have to be Bill Bellichik, what he has to be is a competent leader. A guy who changes how things work in Cleveland.
After we hire Caserio, we follow the Steelers/Patriots model. Caserio hires a Director of Player, these two guys work to hire the coach, and then these two guys also hire ALL of the Assistant coaches.
This is how the Steelers have done things for decades, and the Patriots done it this way prior to Bellichik's arrival.
Mike Tomlin was told who his assistants were going to be, he didn't go out and hire who he wanted.
We have to change our Front Office to work in this same manner so the strong executive(Caserio) is running the show. This will give us structure, leadership, and organization.
Even if that means we hire another assistant, that's OK, as long as the HC and the staff are hired collectively by Front Office (GM and Director of Player Personel)
If we can land Caserio, That pretty much means McDaniels would be our HC and I really like that idea. If anyone can make an offense that will work for Mayfield, its McDaniels. I may not be a big fan of Mayfield, but McDaniels would be our best chance of him working out longterm.
We need this to happen. Hire Caserio, let Caserio his a Director of Player Personel, and then get out of their way and let them hire the coach and assistants and work in a collaborative way like the Steelers and Pre-Bellichik Patriots did. Nick doesn't have to be Bellichik, he just needs to be a strong stabilizing factor and a professional. Thats it. Jimmy and Dee need to stay out of it after these people are brought in, watch, observe, and learn how an NFL organization is actually run.
We are not far off, and we don't have to hit a complete reset button. We just need real leadership, stability, and an actual plan. Its pretty obvious Dorsey is a good scout, but he has no plan at all that is a problem.
Looking at our roster, which players do we feel are TRULY part of the long term ANSWER at this point?
- Chubb - Hunt - Landry - Bitonio - Tretter
??
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Maybe, or Kitchens was getting help last year from others that we don't know about.
Last year, we don't know what help kitchens was getting or who had input.
This year, from what we have been told by Kitchens, hes the man calling the plays and the game plan with input from Monken. Sounds like a duck to me.
That sounds like an indictment of the "help", or lack thereof, to me.
Not that Kitchens is blameless, but he got a ton more dumped on his plate that he has to deal with.
He's the big picture guy now. Monken is the details guy on offense now.
In my opinion, our offensive problems are more on the execution (details) side.
People complain about "too many" pass plays, but when teams are leaning towards stopping the run on 1st downs, calling pass plays makes sense. Unfortunately, when someone runs a bad/wrong route or a lineman whiffs, those first down plays don't work. Once you're behind the chains, playcalling gets more difficult, especially when opponents continue to crowd the box presnap. Once you're in 3rd and long, it's not hard for defenses to guess what you are going to do. That's not a good recipe when your OL doesn't hold up well in pass protection.
Once we're behind and opponents go more prevent, running Chubb works. But, it's more dictated by box counts than Freddie's desire to give Chubb the ball more/less.
OBJ's health not being right all season hasn't helped the passing game. Neither did losing Njoku. Callaway being a knucklehead was also a problem. A bunch of our lower on the depth chart pass catchers (RSJ, Hodge, etc) not being in training camp, along with Harris being a major disappointment also seem problematic.
Freddie's not a position coach any more, though. It's not his job to get the individual players ready. To me, that seems to be the biggest area where we are struggling that isn't being talked about.
Managing a coaching staff is something else new that Freddie has to learn and hasn't had much help with. Plus, many of them are people he didn't really have history with which adds to that challenge. In that sense, "strong" coordinators might actually be problematic as far as dealing with egos.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
Again, the gravest mistake the Browns have ever made in their 20 year rebirth is allowing Shanahan to walk away. They should have immediately fired Pettine after that PPT and promoted KS. Hands down biggest mistake. [/quote]
Shannahan was leaving. No way would he have accepted the HC position in this organization. The only way Shannahan would have remained is if Hasslam fired Pettine and Farmer and begged Shannahan to stay on. This still would not have been enough as Shannahan could not get out of here fast enough.
The worst part about he whole fiascoe is that the Browns were playing very good before they made the decision to pull Hoyer.
Unchallenged by anyone - Bob Wylie spoke out. He said the mid season success last year happened because of Ken Zampese and Al Saunders. It was said that both coaches altered Todd Haley's playbook, designed plays and Saunders was responsible for the success of the red zone. In addition, Freddie Kitchens himself admitted to the media that he used Todd Haley's playbook. We also learned it was the highly respected and successful Ken Zampese who developed Baker Mayfield last year.
Some grunted that Wylie was just a disgruntled employee.
But no one has proven Wylie to be lying. No one.
I don't have substantial evidence proving Bob Wylie to have told the truth. But what I do have is this...
...the red zone plays are the worst. Vastly different from 2018.
...the offense took a major step back from 2018.
...the execution and lack of discipline is absent from 2018.
...Freddie fired Ken Zampese and replaced him with a loser NFL quarterback with zero experience coaching quarterbacks Ryan Lindley. Not good considering Kitchens has so very little experience with quarterbacks himself.
...the play calling is vastly different than 2018.
...experienced players look lost, compared to 2018.
What's the difference between 2018 and 2019? No Al Saunders. No Ken Zampese. No Bob Wylie. No Todd Haley's playbook.
Freddie Kitchens has used smoke and mirrors to get promoted. He spent eleven years in Arizona, and was never promoted once. In fact, he was stripped of duties coaching tight ends and quarterbacks.
Freddie has been nothing but a runningback and tight ends coach for twenty years - and never got promoted. Never got to call plays. Never had a single NFL team call his name. Consider him to be an offensive coordinator, let alone a head coach.
Freddie Kitchens coached runningbacks and tight ends for twenty years...and today, still hasn't figured out how to use either.
Now, as I've been saying for sometime now, Freddie has lost the locker room.
Enter John Dorsey.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
Zampese was neither highly respected nor successful when he came to Cleveland. He was fresh off of being run out of town down in Cinci. As an OC, he took a relatively good offense (from the year before) and made it so bad he got tossed out on his butt in the middle of the season.
Otherwise, I agree with your post.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
I think Dorsey made a huge gamble when he picked FK. Dorsey gambled and lost. What frustrates me most about the entire set up, is that FK as a first time HC with limited experience as an OC is allowed to call the plays. This is all on Dorsey's watch. We just saw what a disaster this was when Hue, who had many years experience as an OC and even some success as a HC could not pull off the double duty. But Dorsey thinks FK can pull it off?
I do believe the last 2 seasons have been better than what we have been used to, but at some point we have to make the playoffs.
I think Freddie needs to go and should never have been given the position in the first place. no doubt that the Browns have the talent to win, but just need the right guidance in getting there.
Who's next: Rivera is a popular choice. but in 9 seasons he only had 3 winning seasons. That does not scream "Need to get this guy!!!" I think he is a hell of guy and probably deserves another chance, but I don't know if he is what we need.
McCarthy is another popular choice. Super Bowl Champion Coach who rode a red hot future Hall of Famer to a World Title. Can he do it without Aaron Rogers?
I don't think either of these choices would be bad, they would definitely be better than anyone we have had since Marty. But I would make my target Pete Carmichael. He has been in a great system for years now, and it seems like his time to shine. His age would put him ahead of McCarthy in my opinion.
Obviously, nobody knows how these decisions will end up but they sure do look like better options than what we currently have.
I'd want somebody that doesn't have a set offense (or defense, if we hire from that side).
I say, hire a special teams coach. We need someone that knows how to lead and impose discipline. I think we need someone who can earn the job w/o part of his pitch being he has the next hot offensive trick(s).
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
I think that losing Al Saunders was the biggest loss from last year. He was assistant WR coach, and senior offensive assistant.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Nick Wright on Should the Browns clean house and build around Baker Mayfield?
Westbrook pretty much nailed it.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Zampese was neither highly respected nor successful when he came to Cleveland. He was fresh off of being run out of town down in Cinci. As an OC, he took a relatively good offense (from the year before) and made it so bad he got tossed out on his butt in the middle of the season.
Otherwise, I agree with your post.
this isn't true...Zampese was very respected as a Offensive mind, from his work with QB's and the as a passing game coordinator for the Greatest Show on Turf, his dad pioneered the Air Coryell. Not to mention he was good with QB's like kitna, palmer, and even dalton looked the best under him. As an OC, sure he had issues, but working with Qb's he's very good and it was evident last year
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
I thought it was a good segment all round. As much as I personally think Baker is the future, I don't mind the honesty regarding how he has regressed and played this season. I think the HC and Offensive scheme needs to be fixed - I'd like to keep Baker, Odel, Landry and Co. I don't think we can keep Hunt, He's too good in his own right to play 2nd string to Chubb. While we've done well working Hunt into the game plan without reducing Chubb's touches and impact ... that role isn't going to keep Hunt happy in my opinion. I also think we need a more reliable TE, a FB and to improve the LT play and with that the O *should* be plenty good enough with the right HC and coaching staff in place.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I had high hopes for keeping Hunt. I thought if we made a serious run, and especially if we reached the playoffs, there would be a decent chance. Especially since he's from Cleveland and knows the frustration.
Instead he sees players taking plays off and wonders why some don't want to work hard enough to win... Besides all the other dysfunction.
Zampese was neither highly respected nor successful when he came to Cleveland. He was fresh off of being run out of town down in Cinci. As an OC, he took a relatively good offense (from the year before) and made it so bad he got tossed out on his butt in the middle of the season.
Otherwise, I agree with your post.
this isn't true...Zampese was very respected as a Offensive mind, from his work with QB's and the as a passing game coordinator for the Greatest Show on Turf, his dad pioneered the Air Coryell. Not to mention he was good with QB's like kitna, palmer, and even dalton looked the best under him. As an OC, sure he had issues, but working with Qb's he's very good and it was evident last year
After becoming the first team since the 1939 Philadelphia Eagles to open the season without a touchdown in two home games, the Cincinnati Bengals made a change.
The Bengals fired offensive coordinator Ken Zampese and announced quarterbacks coach Bill Lazor will take over coordinator duties, the team announced Friday. Lazor last coordinated the Miami Dolphins in 2014 and 2015. Before his stint in South Beach, Lazor worked under Chip Kelly in Philadelphia.
NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport first reported the development.
Zampese joined the Bengals in 2003 as the quarterbacks coach. He waited 12 years behind Bob Bratkowski, Jay Gruden and Hue Jackson (the latter two are currently head coaches) to finally earn the Bengals' OC job in 2015. He lasted just 18 games in the position.
"Ken Zampese has done a tremendous job for us for my 15 years here, and I have the utmost respect for Ken as a person and as a coach," coach Marvin Lewis said in a statement. "But I feel it best for the football team to breathe new life into the offense, and that's why I am making the change. Bill Lazor has great experience in the league and as a coordinator, and I feel Bill can progress our offense the way we need. We have a lot of talent on offense, and we need to keep working to take full advantage of the personnel we have."
The Bengals took a nose-dive last season across the board under Zampese, including sinking from seventh to 24th in points per game from 2015 to 2016. After generating an embarrassing nine total points, 258.0 yards per game, 79 rushing YPG, with four sacks per game in two losses to open the 2017 season, Lewis decided to make a change.
Thursday night's loss was particularly maddening for Bengals star players. The generally soft-spoken A.J. Green sounded frustrated after not getting enough chances to make plays:
"I need the ball in my hands somehow, somewhere, we gotta find a way to get me the ball," Green told reporters after the loss. "We're not doing that right now."
Green's frustration coupled with Andy Dalton's painful-to-watch regression led to the change.
All the Bengals struggles can't be pinned on Zampese. Dalton continuously looked flustered Thursday night, made head-scratching decisions and rarely gave his receivers a chance to make plays. The poor outing came after a five-turnover performance in Week 1.
Mix Dalton's poor play with a remade offensive line that struggled to block in both run and pass, and a muddled backfield rotation, and you get a limp offense. An even decent offensive output, however, could have had the Bengals at least at 1-1 and saved the coordinator's job.
The hope in Cincinnati is that the coordinator switch will lead to a more consistent backfield rotation, perhaps with Joe Mixon gaining a larger share, and an uptick in targets for Green.
The Bengals made the change staring down a possible 0-3 start with their next game Sunday, Sept. 24 against Green Bay at Lambeau Field.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I had high hopes for keeping Hunt. I thought if we made a serious run, and especially if we reached the playoffs, there would be a decent chance. Especially since he's from Cleveland and knows the frustration.
Instead he sees players taking plays off and wonders why some don't want to work hard enough to win... Besides all the other dysfunction.
He's as good as gone.
He'll be an RFA after the season. He'll almost certainly be back next season.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Good listen. I think pretty much everything they said was spot on.
Can someone provide cliff notes?
basically Kitchens is the biggest issue and noone on team respects him because he hasn't done anything in the league and is in over his head, but baker is bad too and you can overcome bad coaching with a good qb and vice versa but can't have both and we currently do
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
I had high hopes for keeping Hunt. I thought if we made a serious run, and especially if we reached the playoffs, there would be a decent chance. Especially since he's from Cleveland and knows the frustration.
Instead he sees players taking plays off and wonders why some don't want to work hard enough to win... Besides all the other dysfunction.
He's as good as gone.
He'll be an RFA after the season. He'll almost certainly be back next season.
Good eye... I don't know why I thought he was an UFA. So, does a 1st round tender make sense?
Zampese was neither highly respected nor successful when he came to Cleveland. He was fresh off of being run out of town down in Cinci. As an OC, he took a relatively good offense (from the year before) and made it so bad he got tossed out on his butt in the middle of the season.
Otherwise, I agree with your post.
this isn't true...Zampese was very respected as a Offensive mind, from his work with QB's and the as a passing game coordinator for the Greatest Show on Turf, his dad pioneered the Air Coryell. Not to mention he was good with QB's like kitna, palmer, and even dalton looked the best under him. As an OC, sure he had issues, but working with Qb's he's very good and it was evident last year
After becoming the first team since the 1939 Philadelphia Eagles to open the season without a touchdown in two home games, the Cincinnati Bengals made a change.
The Bengals fired offensive coordinator Ken Zampese and announced quarterbacks coach Bill Lazor will take over coordinator duties, the team announced Friday. Lazor last coordinated the Miami Dolphins in 2014 and 2015. Before his stint in South Beach, Lazor worked under Chip Kelly in Philadelphia.
NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport first reported the development.
Zampese joined the Bengals in 2003 as the quarterbacks coach. He waited 12 years behind Bob Bratkowski, Jay Gruden and Hue Jackson (the latter two are currently head coaches) to finally earn the Bengals' OC job in 2015. He lasted just 18 games in the position.
"Ken Zampese has done a tremendous job for us for my 15 years here, and I have the utmost respect for Ken as a person and as a coach," coach Marvin Lewis said in a statement. "But I feel it best for the football team to breathe new life into the offense, and that's why I am making the change. Bill Lazor has great experience in the league and as a coordinator, and I feel Bill can progress our offense the way we need. We have a lot of talent on offense, and we need to keep working to take full advantage of the personnel we have."
The Bengals took a nose-dive last season across the board under Zampese, including sinking from seventh to 24th in points per game from 2015 to 2016. After generating an embarrassing nine total points, 258.0 yards per game, 79 rushing YPG, with four sacks per game in two losses to open the 2017 season, Lewis decided to make a change.
Thursday night's loss was particularly maddening for Bengals star players. The generally soft-spoken A.J. Green sounded frustrated after not getting enough chances to make plays:
"I need the ball in my hands somehow, somewhere, we gotta find a way to get me the ball," Green told reporters after the loss. "We're not doing that right now."
Green's frustration coupled with Andy Dalton's painful-to-watch regression led to the change.
All the Bengals struggles can't be pinned on Zampese. Dalton continuously looked flustered Thursday night, made head-scratching decisions and rarely gave his receivers a chance to make plays. The poor outing came after a five-turnover performance in Week 1.
Mix Dalton's poor play with a remade offensive line that struggled to block in both run and pass, and a muddled backfield rotation, and you get a limp offense. An even decent offensive output, however, could have had the Bengals at least at 1-1 and saved the coordinator's job.
The hope in Cincinnati is that the coordinator switch will lead to a more consistent backfield rotation, perhaps with Joe Mixon gaining a larger share, and an uptick in targets for Green.
The Bengals made the change staring down a possible 0-3 start with their next game Sunday, Sept. 24 against Green Bay at Lambeau Field.
cool story, I never said that wasn't true that he was run out of Cinci...I said it wasn't true that he wasn't respected in the league. not like the Bengals got better after he left, the problems were alot deeper than Zampese. But his work in the 3 digit offense and with QB's has always been respected.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
Add to that the Bengals are a joke of an organization (pot meet kettle, I know) and what they do with coaches makes little sense. Same organization that thought it was a good idea to bring back a certain you know hue.
Being run out of Cincinnati might be considered a plus on a resume .lol
.. Told my son to cinch his saddle extra tight when we hired Dorsey. Told my boy that he was one big Double edge sword. So far I feel fairly accurate.
All of us where jumping around with joy the second half of last season, and with good reason ! The Team had something going . Now with some talent on roster and some momentum all we needed to do was add to it over the next couple of years through the Draft and free agency to be a play-off contender Team.. Now here is were it gets dicey ! . Dorsey decides on reconstructive surgery instead of a nose job.
That's my story and I'm sticking it ! lol
The sword will start swing as soon as the forth quarter ends in a couple of weeks .. The Browns Soap opera " All my Brown's " or As the Brown Turns will be in full production.
cool story, I never said that wasn't true that he was run out of Cinci...I said it wasn't true that he wasn't respected in the league. not like the Bengals got better after he left, the problems were alot deeper than Zampese. But his work in the 3 digit offense and with QB's has always been respected.
You might be right... hell, hindsight seems to agree with you.... I honestly don't know how he's viewed throughout the league. All I know is that we got him via the scrap heap... and only because he knew Hue. That doesn't exactly scream well-respected/successful. The way you describe him, he should've been on people's lists for next whiz-kid HC hire.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
every year we have the same freaking conversations.
do we have the right coach? do we have the right QB? do we have either? i think last season, and to be fair this season, we dont have to talk about drafting a QB....but its always either or, and in a lot of cases, both.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Do our coaches even study our opponent to exploit their weaknesses when preparing a game plan? Do they even know our own strengths?
<pictures of the same graphs we seen all year>
This is the main reason we need to oust Freddie. It's been the same story all year. We keep forcing "11" (and usually motion to an empty backfield in the process), and wonder why it doesn't work. Keep forcing that square peg!
Do our coaches even study our opponent to exploit their weaknesses when preparing a game plan? Do they even know our own strengths?
<pictures of the same graphs we seen all year>
This is the main reason we need to oust Freddie. It's been the same story all year. We keep forcing "11" (and usually motion to an empty backfield in the process), and wonder why it doesn't work. Keep forcing that square peg!
We need to oust Freddie because he lost the team, its only getting uglier if we don't.
Do our coaches even study our opponent to exploit their weaknesses when preparing a game plan? Do they even know our own strengths?
<pictures of the same graphs we seen all year>
This is the main reason we need to oust Freddie. It's been the same story all year. We keep forcing "11" (and usually motion to an empty backfield in the process), and wonder why it doesn't work. Keep forcing that square peg!
The problem with this is our TEs aren't very good at blocking. We have success running with the group after we're behind because teams are content to let us run. When the guys the TEs are supposed to be blocking are dropping into prevent, running for 6 yards isn't that impressive.
Once we're behind, we need big plays. None of our TEs have shown to be big play threats. (RSJ possibly but his have mainly been blown coverages which are less likely against prevent) Our WRs on DBs might be a better matchup blockingwise than TEs on LBs, which says more about how bad the TEs are than how good the WRs are.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
cool story, I never said that wasn't true that he was run out of Cinci...I said it wasn't true that he wasn't respected in the league. not like the Bengals got better after he left, the problems were alot deeper than Zampese. But his work in the 3 digit offense and with QB's has always been respected.
You might be right... hell, hindsight seems to agree with you.... I honestly don't know how he's viewed throughout the league. All I know is that we got him via the scrap heap... and only because he knew Hue. That doesn't exactly scream well-respected/successful. The way you describe him, he should've been on people's lists for next whiz-kid HC hire.
Some people are great communicators and position coaches and know how to break things down at that level, some are better at coordinating a side of the ball, some can make that leap and can be leaders and put it all together. I think Zampese is a great position coach, probably struggles with more responsibility, but his influence and being that guy that baker worked with after plays and helping install the gameplan showed. But some aren't meant to be more than position coaches, much like I think we are seeing with Kitchens.. Its why so many failed HC's who were good coordinators.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
cool story, I never said that wasn't true that he was run out of Cinci...I said it wasn't true that he wasn't respected in the league. not like the Bengals got better after he left, the problems were alot deeper than Zampese. But his work in the 3 digit offense and with QB's has always been respected.
You might be right... hell, hindsight seems to agree with you.... I honestly don't know how he's viewed throughout the league. All I know is that we got him via the scrap heap... and only because he knew Hue. That doesn't exactly scream well-respected/successful. The way you describe him, he should've been on people's lists for next whiz-kid HC hire.
Some people are great communicators and position coaches and know how to break things down at that level, some are better at coordinating a side of the ball, some can make that leap and can be leaders and put it all together. I think Zampese is a great position coach, probably struggles with more responsibility, but his influence and being that guy that baker worked with after plays and helping install the gameplan showed. But some aren't meant to be more than position coaches, much like I think we are seeing with Kitchens.. Its why so many failed HC's who were good coordinators.
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/fkjZc8B/Bull-Dawg-Sig-smaller.jpg)
