Well the last Kitchens thread was locked due to length. So just to see people's hair on fire, I decided to post a new one.

Report: Browns plan to retain Freddie Kitchens 'barring a horrific collapse'

According to Ian Rapoport of the NFL Network, the Cleveland Browns hope to keep Freddie Kitchens as their head coach for the long term.

CLEVELAND — With just three weeks remaining in the 2019 NFL season, attention around the league has already begun to shift toward the offseason's coaching carousel. Yet despite the uncertainty that has surrounded Freddie Kitchens for much of his first season as a head coach, it doesn't appear the Cleveland Browns plan on participating.

On Sunday morning, Ian Rapoport of the NFL Network published a report detailing the Browns' thoughts on Kitchens heading into the 2019 campaign's final three games. And while Cleveland's chances of breaking its 16-year playoff drought currently remain slim, Rapoport says that the Browns plan to retain Kitchens, "barring a horrific collapse or circumstance to end the season."

"Sources say Browns management continues to stand with Kitchens and wants him to continue to have the success necessary to remain in that position for a long time," Rapoport wrote. "The organization will evaluate everything, but that is the direction it's heading."

The Browns hired Kitchens as their head coach in January after an eight-game stint as the team's interim offensive coordinator following the midseason firings of head coach Hue Jackson and offensive coordinator Todd Haley in 2018. Through 13 games, he has amassed a 6-7 record, with Cleveland having won four of its last five games following a 2-6 start in its most highly anticipated season since the franchise returned in 1999.

Despite his recent success, Kitchens has routinely been criticized for his game day decision-making, his team's lack of discipline and inability to integrate star wide receiver Odell Beckham Jr. into his offense after acquiring him in a blockbuster trade with the New York Giants. Two weeks ago, he caused a stir when he was pictured wearing a t-shirt that read "Pittsburgh started it" -- a clear reference to the Nov. 14 brawl between the Browns and Steelers that resulted in star defensive end Myles Garrett being suspended indefinitely -- two days prior to his team suffering a 20-13 rematch to Pittsburgh.

On Sunday, the Browns will face the franchise Kitchens spent 11 seasons as an assistant coach with, the Arizona Cardinals, at 4:05 p.m. ET.

https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports/nfl/...f3-092daa235217

so if we go 0-3 he wont be back basically

Pretty much as I expected.

WELL that's the Cliffnotes version.

Which was all that was needed!

Did someone from the Browns say the "barring a horrific collapse" part or just Rapoport?

And was it the dreaded unsolicited vote of confidence that started the whole "story"? Or was someone inside asked about the team's plans with regards to Freddie by the media?

If someone just said they plan on Freddie being here when asked about his future, it's a non-story that got sensationalized (negatively) by the media.

As rough as things have looked at times, I think the staff deserves more time. As much as things changed staff-wise, there were bound to be adjustments (or at least an adjustment period).

I'd really hate to see Kitchens fired at the end of the season.

Well is anything going to be done with play calling?

I like Freddy as a person but his coaching rally worries me. With Baker regressing another year with Freddy might ruin him like what happened to Couch and many many others. I don't think Freddy is a good game time Coach.

Maybe they'll let Monkin take over?

jc

I have been under the impression that this whole season has been a horrific collapse.

Frustrating to see this. HOWEVER... if the team plays hard and wins 2 out of the next 3 and they go 8-8, it says something. It would be 6-2 run for the second half of the season. I know the schedule is easier. But it IS the first year. If the team plays hard and with adequate discipline he’s made a case for himself. This year isn’t what any of us expected. However... if they go 8-8 the year after Hue is gone — good. My main concern is that he doesn’t have control of the team and that bleeds into next year. It might be harder to attract good coaches to see another HC fired after first year going 8-8.

It IS possible for Freddie to improve. Being in over his head doesn’t mean he will be the same way next year. I know from my own working experiences that I have grown with positions and the second year is always better than the first.

I'd really hate to see Kitchens NOT fired at the end of the season.

Let's stay on the firing treadmill.. it has worked so well in the past.

You don't like Kitchens, that's fine, we won't hire a better coach if we fire him, no one will want the job.

What a load of BS. I hate reporters about as much as politicians.. Im sure Dorsey let his plans known to this shumck. Who would he tell on his staff that would leak it either? I would tell every staff member something different and see who leaked what..

I dont care to keep firing coaches but IF Freddie was going to "get it" I'd think he would have "gotten it" this far in.

I've scratched my head so many times this season I've got a bald spot.

1. So what do you think about the play calling?
2. What do you think about the game management?
3. You have no idea on whether particular coaches want the job or not.
4. What do you think Kitchens needs to improve upon?

We tried stripping the HC of his play calling duties with Hue. It created even more dysfunction and infighting.

If you feel the need to step in and dictate how the HC is to run/manage his team, it's time to just move on.

1. I don't think the play calling has been as bad as some of the execution. At times Kitchens seems to be too clever, which doesn't help. This might be due to trying to manage an offense as well as manage a team.

2. He is stretched too thin learning too much at one time. This has caused some issues, I would hope he learns to get better at as time goes on. I think he is trending in the right direction.

3. I don't know what any individual thinks, but a revolving door at the head coach position has not trended upwards in coaching candidates.

4. I think Kitchens needs to adopt Nagy's motto "Be yourself" I think he did a better job last year doing that and needs to be better at what input he listens to.

I won’t be happy if we fire Freddie, and I won’t be happy if we keep him. Typical year for being a fan of the Browns.

x2

x3

Just win games.

Wait! OOPS.

I'd really "LIKE" to see Kitchens fired at the end of the season.

Whew. fixed it, now I can like the post.

Can anyone name ONE time this excuse wasn't used for them not making the playoffs in the multitude of years they didn't make the playoffs.

Not Myles Garretts first year, it's not Odell Beckhams first year, it's not Jarvis Landrys first year, not Higgans, Chubbs, the Haslems' any of the DB's except Greedy's it's not ...

oh nevermind, let's just,

well just more of what we've seen since 1999, (stuck in that vortex at the bottom of Niagara falls)
At least the Red Sox won a championship... after 110 years! OIC, only in Cleveland


hahaha, 2 weeks ago... This if funny.

2 weeks ago the Chiefs shoulder pads and gear ended up in the wrong place and they almost had to forfeit a game,

which would have been a first, ... but ( I like to think)
Somebody spoke up and said, " hey this ain't Cleveland"
and someone else said, "you're right, we can't let this happen, for the first time ever, if it's not happening to Cleveland" and so the gear got a police escort to make it to the stadium in time for the Chiefs not to forfeit.

Yea, lets keep Kitchens. Great game plan today! Can’t wait til next year.

And Freddie strikes again

14-10

So we have 3rd and 2 and you take Chubb off the field???

I think I hear the beginnings of collapse...

I wonder how it is Kitchen's fault the refs blew a false start call...

There is so much going wrong that isn't coaching or play calling it is ridiculous.

Everyone needs to answer one very simple question:

Would Freddie kitchens been a highly sought after hire on ANY OTHER TEAM at the start of 2019?

Well, there goes the playoff hopes...next up humiliation at the hands of the Ravens next week...but Freddie is the man for 2020 I hear! LOL!

"barring a horrific collapse or circumstance to end the season."

Welp.

No and nor was he in 2018.

Here is the horrible catastrophe collapse....

I didn't think Freddie was the right guy for the job to start with but the only way I would fire him now that he's got the job is if a proven Head Coach lets it be known that he would like the job, otherwise stay the course and see if he improves next year.

The horrific collapse is here.

Bye Freddie. Bye Wilks. . . . No doubt someone will try to defend this. Maybe they'll blame Baker? Pfft. Hot garbage.

We gotta cross our fingers and hope Freddie can magically improve and the players suddenly begin to have even a shred of respect for him!

No doubt is right. There were people that felt we should give 1-31 Hue another chance.

j/c:

I'm guessing Freddie's done here in Cleveland. Only two more games.

I do think Wilks needs to go. His defense has been run over most of the season.

that's a huge endorsement for a DC

Lose to the Rats would be one thing but if hit the trifecta and the Cards and Kitties are 2/3 of it he's history.

Bruce Arians
Oh wait that was last year.
He isn't available this year.

Is it sad I miss the days of Mike Pettine and Jim O'Neil

Heck I was on board for bringing him back after the 0-16 .... probably one of the reason's I'm less inclined to give Freddie a chance "just because" or "continuation is good" ... Looking at the way the team comes to each game this year, their level of preparedness, the lack of scheme, cohesion, identity, play calling and game management .... I don't believe he will ever get it. He DID improve discipline - woop woop. But that's it.

Does this qualify as a horrific collapse? I hope so...

Then list the players that have improved compared to those that have regressed under his watch.

Some of the teams most improving players last year can't even see the field.

How much do we lose to Ravens by? 30 too conservative?

This loss is horrific.

Well, that didn't happen (again) today. This team soooo lacks passion...

Two teams going in opposite directions. We can only hope they take pity on us...

Freddie Kitchens: “I don’t care about my future as Browns coach”. Says Dorsey and Haslam want him to do his job

https://twitter.com/MaryKayCabot/status/1206370424403030017

Yet another misleading quote. While the quote may be accurate, I can guarantee the context is not.

We live in a 'get clicks' situation as far as news. get the clicks, money will follow.

Horrific collapse has commenced. Thankfully. Goodbye Fat Freddie. Don't forget Wilks on your way out the door.

If Freddie goes, they all go.

This defense as played has really gotten hammered and can't get off the field well. I just think it is a lame setup. We do not zone well, and backups have killed us.

Tired of the drubbing a lousy tackling D treats us to. Weaker opponents are rolling us, and we sure got out worked today. But this O can't get us enough scores and this D rarely gets stops, seldom turnovers and scoring is a memory.

The Rats are coming.

Can we define horrific collapses

Today felt horrific

He took three or four questions in a row sabout his job security... I get they have to ask but come on...

I agree with that. Whoever said that had some criteria in mind. Not sure we could look more incompetent and inept than today, but wait until next week!

Always something to look forward to.

More leash seldom gives you a better dog. FK has failed to improve some serious issues. Not sure how you measure "horrific" (or merely "horrific-ish") but we have to get closer I guess before it is suddenly actionable.

I used to root for these guys. Saw a bunch of quit and going through the motions today.

Pretty sure we saw a horrific collapse today in Arizona when the team completely fell apart with no consistency and giving up in the second half. The coach is the issue, not the players. Any other coach with some experience could take this crew far. Too bad a losing culture pushes players away. I wouldn't want to see special players like Chubb suffer through ineptitude anyway. That dude is special!

I'm sure by 2021 this whole thing will be blown up and we are back to a talent-less squad like we were 3 years ago. Can't wait to field another team like the Kizer squad!

Does it matter? Does this feel any better?

In a lot of ways this feels worse. Questions that you thought were answered are now unsettled. GM, coach, and QB all took a step back this year. Now we don't know what is real and what is a one off.

Soooo, DePo's stock must be trending up now?

Last Year, I wanted Williams or Arians, and keep Freddie as the OC. Didn't happen. Dorsey ( notice I did not say KING JOHN ) gave the job to Freddie. Why ?? I have no idea, though it had been cited that Freddie and Baker had a "special" relationship.

I think the special relationship is gone now. Baker went from setting rookie records to flunking out his sophomore year. Depending on what happens elsewhere, the worst starting QB in the league. Everyone expected so much more. Dorsey brought in talent, Beckham, Hunt, as well as a decent draft. The team responded with what appears to be a worse record than last year, when all the bad stuff was blamed on Hue and Haley.

Where is the fire and desire that we saw a year ago ? Where is the push to win ? Clearly Freddie was not ready. I want a proven Head Coach. No more first timers, or one year wonders. Maybe Chuck Pagano, maybe Jason Garret, maybe Joe Philbin, or Mike McCarthy. All I know is that I'm tired of giving a coach his first head coaching job.

I have read most of this thread and am amazed at the lack of Dorsey speak. Anyone care to really examine his off season TEAM building moves last year .
Anyone really think an air raid OC like Moken was a fit ? The more I looked at the Wilks hire , the more I scratch my head.

Hind site is always 20/20. You can pick apart a bunch of his off season player moves for sure . What really bothered me more than anything was moves or lack 0f on both O and D lines .

Can count on the off season to be long and arduous .

If we get rid of Freddie who do we hire? Here are some thoughts:

My top 2 choices:
Dan Campbell Ass't HC/TE coach N.O. Saints
Robert Saleh DC San Francisco

Both these guys have the fire and enthusiasm, yet hard guy discapline I like to see in a HC. Campbell also has some prior HC experience.

Other considerations:
Ron Rivera
Chuck Pagano - are his health issues completely resolved?

Not going to happen:
Bill Cowher
Urban Meyer
Lincoln Riley

No Way!
Jason Garret
Joe Philbin
Hue Jackson

Anybody have anyone else they are high on that I failed to mention?

To your question(s)....

**Speculation Alert**

Dorsey was scarred by what happened to him in KC with a strong HC in which he lost the battle to and was ultimately fired from his job.

GW was never a realistic candidate for a couple reasons, 1) Bountygate, and 2) Too strong of a personality for Dorsey. This is likely the reason he never bothered to interview guys like Ariens or McCarthy. Dorsey wanted someone he could control. Hence, him "flexing his muscle" to get Freddie and the organizational structure (which I agree with) he wanted.

This gave Dorsey full control. Something he never had before. A coach with too much clout means Dorsey may find himself in the same situation he was in in KC where he ultimately lost out. He wants the control and not to be controlled.

**Speculation Over**

That was kind of my thought... so Kitchens is benefitting from the fact that the team looked absolutely dreadful at the beginning of the season... then showed some progress... but unless they return to dreadful, he gets to keep his job?

Given the body language of the team, the frustration shown by Landry, OBJ, others on the sidelines... the question isn't does Freddie have what it takes to be an NFL coach, it's has he lost this team? I don't know what they were frustrated about but "losing" isn't a good enough answer... they were frustrated about SOMETHING that was leading to losing...

McCarthy and Rivera top my list. Byron Leftwich is a rising star as an OC under Arians. I'd also consider Kevin Stefanski. He would have a lot of fun with Hunt and Chubb.

Jim Tressel.

Yep, the season as a whole has been a disastrous failure.

I believe the frustration w/the players towards the coach(es) has been brewing for quite sometime and it's starting to boil over.

You can see it everywhere from:

- Landry yelling at Freddie
- OBJ yelling at Freddie/the sideline
- Landry shouting at Lindley to the point Landry had to be separated
- The Curious Case of Hollywood Higgins
- Njoku's odd return from injury
- Damarious Randall being benched and not traveling with the team
- Giving Callaway the starting role, fresh off suspension and his costly bobble turned INT

The list goes on.

And some of these are things happening while we are actually winning games.

On a side note, I never see the coaches discussing w/the players or the players getting together on the sidelines either coaching them up or rallying each other. Everyone seems to kind of do their own thing. There does not appear to be a lot of team camaraderie.

I never see Baker going over to Landry and OBJ on the sideline to discussing previous drives, etc... To me, Baker is intimidated by Landy and OBJ together.

I feel, as if, Mayfield, awkwardly throwing the medical staff under the bus last week, in support of OBJ, was akin to the school kid saying whatever he can in an attempt to get in with the cool kids. I could be wrong, obviously, but that was one of my initial thoughts.

I am not a McCarthy fan
Leftwich is an interesting add
Forgot about Stefanski.
I don't see Tressel happening but he would bring discipline

Arians is who they should of hired.

The guy WANTED the job. He would of been the perfect mentor to Fred.

I get the feeling Dorsey didn't/doesn't want a strong head coach. That doesn't mean he doesn't want a good head coach, he just doesn't want a strong coach. Dorsey likes to be the man.

Just a name from the college ranks, Gus Malzahn of Auburn. I think he would be super.

J/c

If the embarrassing loss to Tennessee, the play calling against the Rams, the collapse against Seattle, the horrible loss in Denver, the loss to Pittsburgh’s backups, or yesterday’s debacle aren’t grounds for dismissal ... then I’m not sure what would be

This actually makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't be surprised if Baker's being told he needs to be more of a leader so he does things like this and then they confe back and tell him not to do things like this.

This is true. This is Dorsey's team thru and thru. Someone needs to start holding him accountable.

Tressel is never leaving Youngstown State.

I've been wondering about that since GW was canned...

Fire Freddie. Fire Dorsey. Go after McCarthy. Promote Wolf to GM.


Problems solved.

stefanski was the guy everyone in Berea wanted, except for dorsey who "flexed his muscle" the same way Haslam did when everyone in Berea wanted McDermott and he flew to cincy to hire Hue without anyone knowing

The Green Bay Browns.

It worked for the Packers until it didn't. Getting anything to work before it doesn't would be fantastic.

Just a personal disconnect with the FK post-game interview. Or several.

We are 1-0 is thin and I tuned out. EARLY on in interview. He says he thought we were ready to play, but weren't. Takes blame for getting them ready and it has to be done better.

DISCONNECT: Get a clue. FK has trouble determining game readiness, but hasn't managed that. Hindsight is not a viable NFL lifestyle. Not sure we have a "going forward" metric he keeps mentioning. This is an effort to be objective on his behalf.

What progress have we seen? What problems are fixed? What will FK's success look like when it lands? Are we better after a season's work going into closing games? What are the very few "must achieve" goals for this season? How many coaches fit under Bus Freddy? How much more do we need to see of problems which don't get fixed?

Why with a rushing leader are we kicking field goals and failing? We need scores, TD's. The epitome of this offense.

To answer most of that: IMO, we are not better at anything this season. Heck, we don’t even see any consistency from week to week. We are ill-prepared, have zero heart, and don’t seem to have much of a plan.

It’s the worst coaching job I’ve seen here, and that’s saying something obviously

This is actually a remarkably and hilariously accurate take on the situation.

j/c...

A snippet from Zac Jackson's article after the game...

...Three and a half or so hours later, in the bottom level of State Farm Stadium, it just felt over for Freddie Kitchens. I’ve been around a few of these situations, and I know them. I know the body language. I know the search for answers. I know the coached-up words about continuing to fight, focusing only on what the coach and players control, worrying nothing about perceptions or opinions. Sadly, I could write the handbook. From experience, I know how to write coaching obituaries.

As I looked around the news conference room and visiting locker room here late Sunday afternoon, I saw too many familiar sights. There’s a look. It’s in the eyes of the support staff and the assistant coaches making the slow walk out of the locker room. They know. In some cases, they left other jobs for this, and their eyes and shoulders say they’re about to be back on the market....

Story of the season. It’s over now. It might get uglier next Sunday against the Ravens given the opponent and the circumstances. It officially ends in Cincinnati in two weeks. Leaving Arizona, it feels inevitable that Kitchens’ time on the job will end in the hours after that.

Saban
Swinney

Well written and explained by Zac Jackson ... we’re too used to it

PLEASE .. get an experienced, professional Head Coach !! No more On the Job Trainees.

I need to watch the game, as I was only able to listen... but if it looked how I think it looked (could run Yakety Sax as background music), then I can understand if the decision has been made to move on. From what I could hear via the radio call, Browns came out not only flat, but totally unprepared and unmotivated. On highlights, I saw our Dlinemen just going through motions and really not trying (just using them as an example).

I won't like getting rid of Freddie, but I can understand why.

I wish I could go back and listen to it. Donovan usually has a keen sense of what's going on.

If Baker has to have his hand held to be a leader that's a problem.

After 14 games. It doesn't feel or look like Freddie has learned anything. If the team played inspired against the Cards and looked like they wanted to stay in the hopes of looking like they are ready to change the culture then it would look better on Freddie.


Freddie himself said in the presser he didn't have the team ready to play. Why in the hell not ?

If we keep Freddie and leave the rest of the coaching staff in tact we will be talking about the same things next year. I don't like to keep changing HC and staff's but this is showing zero sign of straightening out. Freddie was a good gamble because of how last season ended but it isn't working out. I wasn't as optimistic as others and felt we wouldn't win any more than 9 games. If there was improvement I could understand keeping Freddie but we look no better now than we did game#1 and with the bickering going on it's actually worse. IMO we have to make a change.

After watching yesterdays game, I can't think of a single reason to try and make a case for Freddie to stay. I would love to be able to. I would have loved to have seen anything on either side of the ball to give me hope.

But I didn't see a solitary thing to hang my hat on.

I am usually one to keep the coach.

If we can somehow get Ron Rivera, I would dump Freddie. Aside from Rivera, I don't see anything else that makes enough sense.

j/c:

I wonder who will lead the coaching search this time around.

I think I have an idea who's going to have a much stronger voice. Maybe even some muscles to flex.

Coming from you, that's huge.

I wonder if the notion of a "total collapse" isn't expected against the Ravens.. I feel like the "we're with Freddie unless...." comment was said with full expectation that we lose to the Ravens by 30+ points and Dorsey has set the table for... this is the collapse we were talking about, he's out.

I've been preaching on the board for years about keeping coaching continuity. About how swapping out HCs and OCs year after year does nothing to help a young QB learn his craft. How it's impossible to establish an identity when you're switching out who's leading you, year after year. And why it's dumb to build a roster for one coach, and then swap him out with a guy who's going to want a new roster.

That said, I want Kitchens gone. Nothing I've seen this year leads me to believe that what we're seeing are just growing pains that we'll get figured out next year. Kitchens just looks like a guy that's completely in over his head, and doesn't even have the credentials to be an OC, let alone a HC. His job as a HC is to have the player prepared and disciplined, and despite the talent, we're one of the least prepared and disciplined teams in the league. His job as the OC was to retain the same kind of Offense that we saw making headway last year. Instead, the only thing we see that looks similar to last year are the stupid trick plays he inevitably tries a couple times a game. He has probably the best RB tandem in Chubb and Hunt, yet constantly runs empty backfield sets and leans heavily on a sophomore QB in a slump. Nothing he's done this year leads me to believe he'll be innovative or crafty down the road. He just continuously makes the same dumb mistakes over and over, he calls plays like a tilted poker player and constantly tries to force square pegs into round holes and wonders why it doesn't work.

Like I said in the poll thread, I don't get why Dorsey would want to keep him. The players have already quit on him, and he's making his own drafting ability look questionable. If he hangs onto him one more year, and we continue this trajectory, Dorsey is the one that's going to look like he has questionable decision making, and drafting ability.

I love keeping continuity when possible, but I fear the only thing we will be continuing next year will be the decline of Baker and everyone else on the roster.

Interesting thought, I would not be opposed.

Nerds don't have muscles...duh!

I'd say there's a good chance we find out that the Haslams pushed Freddie more than we think. Berea makes people go nuts. Some paranormal thingy going on.

JC

I hate to say it, but I think Freddie is damaged goods, and it's probably better that he goes before Baker becomes the same. There is a laundry list of "things that went wrong", many (if not most) of them NOT Freddie's fault, but when things go bad... this badly... it's hard for even a good tenured coach to survive. It leads to too many players losing confidence and respect for the "man in charge".

When I look at what I deem the biggest mistakes, they are usually the result of a "two-headed monster", and the other head is John Dorsey. They both bought into the "too much talent to fail" narrative and it led to a lot of terrible personnel decisions - with the roster as a whole and game day decisions.

I think the "on paper" talent led to a tough guy mentality from Freddie. That's all well and good when things are going well but exponentially bad when they are not. He marched around with his "if you ain't brown and orange" flag even though it didn't really apply to everyone. I'll use this example, NOT to endorse Hue as a great head coach, just to draw a correlation: I'll just pick two players - Higgins and Avery. Hue would go into psychiatrist mode with their discontent and try his best to get them pointed in the right direction... Freddie said "have a seat, you don't matter". Freddie thought that he had that political capital because of sheer talent, but the bottom line is, Freddie had never earned that. When things go sour, that leads to more discord and loss of respect... in a word - CANCER.

Analyzing this team and trying to address "what went wrong" is almost as hard as trying to find a fix for our political system. Every cancer is intertwined and codependent on other fostering diseases. It's easy for me to point at the beginning of the "stench", it started with the trades with the Giants. It was truly "subtraction by addition" even though it was all too easy to pat everyone on the head and say "HOF talent, duh".

It continued through a minicamp, training camp and preseason that did NOTHING to prepare the talent for the the actual games. Freddie, like everyone else came out like "deer in the headlights" and never made (or was too slow to) make the decisions to point the ship in the right direction.

By most standards, Freddie wasn't a terrible first-year head coach. Given the talent, arrogance, and inability to fix problems the - image of failure looms too large to save him... Expectations may have been his biggest enemy, his inability to adjust and meet them (by any stretch of the imagination) will earn him his walking papers.

yeah he does ... he kinda stays reserved but will drop little hints

I predict Kitchens will be fired today. Instead of the standard press conference, it will be Haslam.

A paragraph from Joe Posanski of The Athletic after yesterday's game....

It was a symphony of awfulness for Cleveland. It was reported that after the game ended, owner Jimmy Haslam stomped around angrily. That is interesting. There has already been a report that, while GM John Dorsey remains bullish on his hiring of Kitchens, Haslam is much more skeptical and was so even before the game. This makes you wonder who was behind the leaked vote of confidence, which makes you wonder if Haslam was was not thrilled with the report, which makes you wonder if the Browns are as dysfunctional as they have ever been.

Actually, we don’t have to wonder about that.

haslam has every right to be pissed...he put his trust in dorsey.. let him do his thing and so far he's proven to be just as incompetent a GM as we've had. Dorsey might have to sacrifice Kitchens to keep his job.

Hopefully Haslam.

I doubt Dorsey will hire a guy like McCarthy or Rivera who are probably going to want some say.

If it's Dorsey, another first time HC is likely or a retread nobody wants.

The cycle continues....

Dorsey is intimidated by intelligence.

Starting with the second week in November I saw some good signs. We defeated a playoff caliber team in the Bills. We went on to beat the Steelers, trounce Miami and a close loss in the rematch of the Steelers. Then we went on to beat the Bengals.

We didn't look great accomplishing these wins, but it seemed we were actually learning how to win no matter the optics of those games. It seemed many of our fans cared more about style points rather than the W's as fans continued to drone on even when we were winning games. It seemed, "how we won" was more important than actually winning was. I found that baffling. As we won, people were complaining about Chubb not running the ball enough. Even though he had the most carries of any RB in the NFL. Then the battle cry became, "It's not that he isn't running enough, it's when he's running". All the while we were actually winning those games.

But yesterday we saw a complete collapse. Our offense put up 17 points during the time the game actually meant something. The last TD was meaningless as both we and the Cards knew it.

The D simply rolled over and played dead. There was no heart in this team. The running game has been good, but you can't rely on your running game to win games for you if you allow your opponent to score 38 points.

Mayfield didn't have a terrible game yesterday. But we can't string together drives where we punch it in from the red zone. There just doesn't seem to be any finish there when it matters most. When you're playing for your last hope at a possible playoff birth and this is the product we see, that speaks volumes. And the volume is so loud it's making peoples ears bleed.

It never ceases to amaze me how people on this board drone on and on about how reporters spread rumors that are unsubstantiated and then turn around and do the exact same thing.

Miss Cleo, is that you? Long Island Medium maybe?

Today? Really caught me off guard with that one!

And who takes it over, Swami? My crystal ball is at the cleaners. No need to predict the future for this group the rest of the season. When it counted (more than once!), well, looked like a number of us could not be bothered.

Also....horrific collapse.....

like what, losing to Arizona, Baltimore and the Bengals? If I were a coach, I would try to beat Baltimore and unless we win, I'd bench all the starters for the Bengals game.

j/c

Here's the rub:

Most experienced head coaches that might be available have been losers or average at best somewhere else. Few have left their previous teams on top and those that have usually aren't ready to change that legacy.

Up and coming coordinators, college coaches, or wonder boys like Freddie
version 2018 are all just coin flip risks.

Neither of those 2 guys are coming here.
Someone that I had wanted to mention but skipper is Mike Priefer our ST coach.
He really improved the ST units and they always seem prepared to play

I think Ron Rivera is a very underrated coach. Cam Newton won an MVP with Greg Olsen as his best weapon. They were consistently an extremely fundamental team.

Three names ranked in how I would prefer them.

1. Rivera
2. Gary Kubiak
(3a. Stick with Freddie)
3b. Mike McCarthy


I would fire Freddie tomorrow if I thought we could get Rivera.

14 Games in and this team is as lost as we were in TC.

Guys not lining up right, not knowing the play call, running to the line with little time left on the clock. having to line up WRs - the offense is just a mess. It was week 15! I mean goodness, if you cant at least get guys lined up by 15, what are you doing here?

Then add in again that players are quitting on the coach, yelling at him on the sideline (rightfully so), and just the overall lack of respect for FK, the writing is on the wall.

What do you guys expect to happen when Balt blows us out at home sunday?

It's your first main paragraph there (disorganization of the offense) that is starting to turn my opinion of FK. I can find a way to excuse A LOT, but the team looking like they got the playbook yesterday... in week 15... there's no excuse for that.

Again, I listened to the game (so I have to watch), but this is the feeling I was getting in the first quarter. Complete and total disorganization and no urgency.

NFL Gamepass is what I use. It's actually pretty great now that I'm living in Cinci, and I'd even go as far as to call it a worthwhile purchase each year. Just need to buy an Android box to get the video working right on my TV.

I'd put it another way. If I follow that line of thinking, it's whoever said that talking to the players and saying, "this is what needs to happen to get this guy out of the building".

So who wants to make the case for keeping Dorsey ?? I would love see it in print .lol

That case doesn't have to be made. Some people act as though GM's are supposed to be perfect. Yet there has never been such a thing.

We need to dump Dorsey, Freddie (and the entire staff), Baker, Chubb, Myles, and then dump all our high cap hits and start over.

And Zac Jackson ... he's the one constant through all this losing that hasn't changed. He needs to go, just in case.

j/c...

only team this decade without a winning season...christ

I think Randall is actually more part of the problem than part of the solution, he is a malcontent. He has not been happy in virtually every NFL situation he has had.

Randall and OBJ are more problem than solution at this point of the two only OBJ is really worth the gamble.

Which would be a case to keep Freddie actually....

We've won 6 games only one other time this decade and never more than 4 wins in back to back seasons. While we are all disappointed with this season, we could have back to back 7 win seasons for the first time since 1992/1993 ...


2018 7-8-1 3rd -- AFC North -- Hue Jackson,
Gregg Williams Roster / Stats
2017 0-16-0 4th -- AFC North -- Hue Jackson Roster / Stats
2016 1-15-0 4th -- AFC North -- Hue Jackson Roster / Stats
2015 3-13-0 4th -- AFC North -- Mike Pettine Roster / Stats
2014 7-9-0 4th -- AFC North -- Mike Pettine Roster / Stats
2013 4-12-0 4th -- AFC North -- Rob Chudzinski Roster / Stats
2012 5-11-0 4th -- AFC North -- Pat Shurmur Roster / Stats
2011 4-12-0 4th -- AFC North -- Pat Shurmur Roster / Stats
2010 5-11-0

And people wonder why some are skeptical when it comes to analytics.

I have been hard on Dorsey for some of his decisions, but I will make the case for keeping him. Write it down.

Now, if he doesn't fire Freddie, and we waste another year, my mind will be changed. But I am not about to run a guy out of town because he made a bad decision hiring Kitchens. Ill give him that pass - but I think he needs to be put on notice as well. Get it right moving forward, or get out.

Progress is progress?

j/c...

The Ravens open at -10. Jump on it now. This thing is a dumpster fire that we've all seen before.

J/c

Kareem Hunt just reported that guys took plays off and were not giving 110%. SMH

The wheels are falling off if you ask me. When we get trounced by Bmore this week, its really going to hit the fan.

i'm surprised this hasn't come out sooner..most fans realized this by the Bye week

And I don't blame any of these players. They played until it just didn't matter anymore.

j/c
I'm sure there will be drips and rumors - none of it will make any of us feel good about the Browns organization.

I'll keep it simple - Freddie has proven again why he's not HC material. I think given the regression we have seen by several players, not the least insignificant of which is Baker, you gotta look at HC, scheme and play calling.... preparedness like we saw vs Ten and Arizona sort of just top everything off.

I was thinking waiting till the end of the season would be the cleanest way to handle this - but I simply don't know. I'm leaning to letting him go this week if it was my decision. Start lining up interviews.

Dorsey owns a slice of all of this - but he's done enough in my eyes to warrant more time. The only concern I have is his ability / willingness to bring in someone that might be as big a name or force as he is. My top 2 HC options would be Rivera or McCarthy. I'd hope to hell Dorsey can make the best/right decision this go around.

J/C

This whole thing is a dumpster fire.

Dorsey is the best GM we have had in forever.
Nobody can scout like him.

He isnt going anywhere.

We just need new coaches.

And all you people making up imaginary stories about "Dorsey prefers weak coaches" ....PFFFT. Did you do a Vulcan mind meld with him?

I don't think either McCarthy or Rivera will come here if they are stuck with Dorsey.

Don't think coaches don't talk, im sure Andy Reid filled them in on the BS Dorsey does.

Also, don't forget the BS Dorsey did last year by trading away Jackson's starting RB(Hyde) against Jackson's wishes because he wanted Jackson to play his guy (Chubb). Even if it was the right decision, its unprofessional as all get, and I wouldn't want to work with a toxic GM that does that kinda BS. I am sure McCarthy and Rivera want NOTHING to do with that...we will have to send Dorsey packing to get either one of those guys to sign on here.

That sounds like a guy that doesn't believe what he's saying, but doesn't know what else to say and knows he can't say nothing.

The pain, the PAIN!!!!

The irony.

We see it all the time when you post.

j/c,
I think that Freddie has shown to be stiffnecked, and is unwilling to except criticism, where it is due.

Now he has lost the respect of this team, because of the bed that he has made.

This is not a salvageable situation imo...

Why hasn't he been fired yet?

Yep - I can't believe Dorsey forced Hue to play Chubb - one of th ebest backs in the NFL.

J/C

We have seen:

Players fighting in TC
Players suspended for the year for fights
Players threatening people on Social Media
Players calling out other players not playing 100%
Players calling out the medical staff
Players wearing inappropriate attire during games
Players calling for other teams to "come get them"
Players committing penalty after penalty
Players punching guys in the head during games
Players not practicing in cold weather



We have seen:

Team lose to multiple first year QBs, some of which undrafted
Team lose to inferior talent levels, multiple times
Team not knowing the playbook
Team not knowing where to line up
Team leading the league in penalties
Team having more than questionable play calls at key moments
Team not learning from mistakes
Team is not only not progressing, they are regressing.
Team is poorly organized and run.

Can anyone really defend any of this and give me an example why Freddie and co should be retained? Honest question.

I know I keep hearing snide remarks about firing Freddie and why we need to stay the course and a lot about first year HC's. But can anyone actually give me a REASON for Freddie to stay that actually pertains to Freddie and not some "well look at Chuck Knoll" argument. Because guess what, Freddie aint Chuck Knoll.

I have stayed out of discussions and arguments about Freddie Kitchens. I have been thinking it is best to stay the course. Kitchens is a rookie HC with a less than average resume, so it's natural that he would need more time to learn the job. Patience. He was hired because of the apparent chemistry between himself and the QB Mayfield. Mayfield has regressed. That is not abnormal for a 2nd year QB. Patience. The Browns have traditionally had a short leash for HC, resulting in a profound lack of continuity over the years. To only way to remedy that is to finally give out more leash. Patience.

But what was evident during yesterday's game, was that Kitchens has lost the respect of the team. No matter what has been said to this point by Dorsey and the Haslams, I think it is now evident that replacing Kitchens is the best way forward. Sorry Freddie, you had my support, but you lost it when you lost your team.

How much time do we think Freddie is actually spending with Baker? He's spending time on all the extraneous BS that a HC has to deal with. He's had a lot of that non-football stuff he's had to waste time on.

It's all the other coaches around Baker that changed. Monken and Lindley seem to have been a step back from the people we had last year. I get that the buck stops with Freddie, but he's got Callaway's stupidity to deal with and Randall's acting out to handle. He's the one facing Mary Kay and Grossi's (negative) leading questions day in and day out. He'd been trying to make sure OBJ's frustration didn't boil over. He's got to set schedules and approve travel plans.

It's easy to blame Freddie, but why aren't people looking at Monken? Because Kitchens is unlike Hue, and he hasn't thrown his OC under the bus? Monken's got more time to spend on/with the offense. He was allegedly a passing game guru, but that's the part of the offense that looks horrendous.

I also think part of the reason defenses "know" our playcalling is because the pass plays and run plays don't tie together as well as they used to. It's like we've tacked a completely different looking passing game onto last year's playbook that had the old passing game that played off the other plays torn out.

We don't have Mike Evans to make the offense work like it did for Monken (sort of) in TB and Manziel at A&M before him. Too much ad libbing on routes rather than precision. I wonder if the problem now is really the playcalling or just the execution of those plays. Hmmmmmmm isn't execution kind of similar to coordination?

Dorsey had Freddie bring in experienced coordinators so he could delegate things to them, but I'm not sure they are holding up their end of the bargain.

Whose vision are we following here? It doesn't seem very cohesive. We got names, but they are looking less and less like fits.

Maybe we can salvage this thing with only Monken agreeing to part ways.

Good post. I agree, Monken and his air raid need to go. The route concepts have been ugly all year making Baker even more confused beyond the leagues adjustment to him.

Baker dominated the middle of the field last year.....all of our passes are outside the hashes....

We run from shotgun on the goaline....


get this garbage (air raid) out of my face.

This was a fun read.

(I agree, btw.)

Just saw the presser, man I've never seen a bigger group of idiots than those reporters asking the questions. The last question, "Do you understand the disappointment the fans are feeling?" What a well thought out intelligent inquiry there.

I'm beginning to believe in Exorcisms

Eater : I enjoy the sarcasm , really I do. I believe Myles was pre Dorsey ? Who dosn't love Chub ( throw Hunt in there too ) I think Baker can be the guy .. Some Fans are in doubt .. Now the rest of the story ; I for one believe in the theory that Dorsey is not into a more challenging Coach ( insert name ) .. Never understood the hire of Air raid Moken or Wilks . Don't think they will be here next season. How many players that Dorsey brought in over the off season will be with the Team in a year or so ? This is HIS roster and Coaching staff.

.. Dorsey made a couple of good draft picks .. The sad part is he is the man in some eyes because of that .. That's how bad this organization has been ( again this season ) . So little makes many happy.

.. Will be interesting to see how Haslam handles the off season. I suspect Dorsey will get a couple more seasons to right the ship. He just ain't King John to me at this juncture .. Just my opinion.

I think a lot of the disapointment this year has been the high expectations this team was straddled with. From everyone..
Many games were lost do to tipped passes that should have been caught..fumbles at the worst times..running wrong routes. Penaltys..stupid player decisions by players and questionable decisions by the coaches. No ONE thing or problem caused them all. We are ranked 17th and 16th overall for offense and defense this year. Its been a lot worse in the past. I think bad luck..injuries and a young team caused more issues than Dorsey or Freddie caused. Lets give them more time before starting over with the next great hire...

Lol! Extra bonus points!!

The problem with running these guys off after (less than) a (complete) season is who's going to want to replace them?

I've seen Rivera mentioned, but who would be his OC? I doubt Norv Turner comes back.

Aaron Rodgers disliked McCarthy's offense so much at the end that he was drawing up his own plays in the huddle.

We ran Shanahan off with our dysfunction and lack of support for the coaches.

Monken's been here and his part of the offense is a mess.

And I've seen some future first timers who will likely face struggles if they transition. If they're willing to take the job at all after seeing a former first timer given little to no opportunity to develop anything. The dysfunctional Redskins might be more appealing.

How many former coaches are the Haslams still paying?

Ray Farmer texting down to the sidelines questioning the play calling and Manziel being forced to start by Haslam and Alec Scheiner was what drove Shanahan to want to get the hell out of town.



Interestingly, Sheil Kapadia just wrote a lengthy piece in The Athletic titled Ranking NFL play-callers based on opening possession game scripts. The Browns ranked 6th out of all 32 NFL teams. Is Monken the one helping Freddie script the plays to start the game and it falls apart after the scripted plays are exhausted? From the article...

6. Cleveland Browns
Freddie Kitchens and the Browns have been very good on opening possessions. Baker Mayfield has averaged 8.6 net yards per pass play on the first drive — the fifth-best average for any quarterback. After the first possession, though, the Browns have averaged just 1.63 points per drive, which ranks tied for 23rd.

FREDDIE MUST GO!

Hell, even the players want it!

Cleveland has easily one of the worst sports teams in media in the country.. I've been around to see

this is exactly what I think is happening. Once the scripted plays are exhausted and you have to call based on game flow/feel Kitchens inexperience shows. Dorsey should be fired for letting a rookie hc call his own plays, not even counting letting him pick all the coaches. What seems to be lost is Kitchens has been a position coach his entire career.. and compound that with Dorsey never having the responsibility to hire a HC before.. He didn't do himself any favors hitching himself to FK. He would have been alot better off taking the safer picks of McCarthy/Arians who are proven guys and know what it takes to put a staff together and run a camp.

Which flies in the face of what we saw from him last season when he was like a virtuoso conducting an orchestra. There's more to the story, there has to be... but we aren't gonna get it.

I still wonder if there isn't something going on with Baket that he isn't talking about ..... injury .... or I don't know what.

Pete Carmichael is a name I would be looking at. He has been the OC in New Orleans for the last 11 years. We have the rb’s, we have the wr’s, we might have the qb to run the Saints offense. Just throwing a name out there.

If not him, I would go:

1. McCarthey
2. Rivera
3. Stefanski

Hmmmmmm, this is intriguing. Look at this, what do you know, he was once in Cleveland.

Cleveland Browns (2000)
Tight ends coach & offensive assistant

If Rivera is brought in, I'll tell you who his OC is gonna be. It will be the guy who served as OC for him around 2011.

J/c

I’d make signing Hunt a priority then throw a butt load of money at Greg Roman to come here as HC or OC or water boy, I don’t care so long as he puts together our run game with Chubb and Hunt.

I don’t know who I really want to be honest. I don’t care. I can’t even care enough about the game from week to week let alone next season. I was seriously ready to turn the game off at the end of the 1st quarter because it was clear as day the a Browns had not intent on playing. Chubb, Hunt, and Mack Wilson we’re the only 3 guys worth watching.

Freddie is a bust. I know the playoff chances were slim, but they would have been much greater had we not dropped the second Steelers game. How in the hell as a coach, when your team is playing meaningful , WINNABLE games that could land you in the playoffs, put such a disinterested group of people on the field????

Just once I wish Mary Kay or Grossi or Newsroom Carl would ask a Freddie: if the team wasn’t prepared like you thought they were, then what were you doing all week?

I feel like there’s already a docudrama about Freddie Kitchens as a HC. It’s a little flick called Tommyboy

His wife is really a succubus...

Kevin Stefanski would have been a smarter choice a year ago

AGREE

I have to agree with this.

My guess is that this weekend Freddie will suffer his worst loss as a HC.

And then we lose to Cincy. Because this team has no heart.

Actually, I liked that question. Its about time someone had the fans back and questioned these guys instead of kissing their rears. Hold them accountable.

LOL.. anything is worth to excuse the QB...

Poor HC and QB play have been the major problems, and both problems are tied. Kitchens is the HC because of Baker.

Maybe, or Kitchens was getting help last year from others that we don't know about.

Last year, we don't know what help kitchens was getting or who had input.

This year, from what we have been told by Kitchens, hes the man calling the plays and the game plan with input from Monken. Sounds like a duck to me.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001088854/article/multiple-browns-say-come-get-me-to-cardinals

We have to move away from Kitchens and Baker, or we will be back rebuilding very soon.

I dont excuse Baker in this mess. He has been a disappointment as well. Decisions have been bad at times and not seeing the field properly has caused MANY 3 and outs. I think he is metally and physically exhausted. His first full season and the results has taken a toll. The difference IS.. I still see his drive and desire to be great and expect he will come back much more prepared next year.

And McDermott a few years before that...


There's a trend here...

Again, the gravest mistake the Browns have ever made in their 20 year rebirth is allowing Shanahan to walk away. They should have immediately fired Pettine after that PPT and promoted KS. Hands down biggest mistake.

The gravest mistake was selling the team to Jimmy.

I have to confess my biggest problem with Baker are the Baker fans.

I don't want to lose Jarvis and OBJ and the O just because of keeping Baker.

Fire Kitchens, hire a good back-up QB, give the team to Chubb.

Clearly both Kitchens and Baker are not part of the solution...

And dont get me started on the players interest has been lost and the coaches cant motivate them.. BS.. Players that want to be great dont give a crap about raw raw speeches and holding hands. They give 100 percent of themselves at every chance. U think Freddy "lost" Chubb? or Hunt.. or Shobert or Landry for that matter ? U think players like TJ watt or Troy Polamalu or Clay Matthews need that crap ? If the players quit it's because they are quitters and we need to be rid of them.

Landry is also pissed... best D player is suspended, etc...

J/c

Reports now saying OBJ said the same thing to Pittsburgh’s bench and players

Yes. Landry is being reported to ask to have people come get him. He also blew up on the sideline.

Shobert had one of his worst games this last week, and was carved up left and right allowing 4 TD to a junk RB.

Hes lost the team, and they are playing unmotivated.

Ill give you Chubb, but you have no idea what motivates him. Could it be trying to be the rushing leader? Making the pro bowl? He still has a lot on the line and a lot of money to earn with a great individual season - even if the Browns lose.

Troy P...pretty sure they won basically his entire career. We don't know what he would play like in a meaningless season. Same with TJ Watt.

So your examples don't really tell the whole story there, do they?

I think this is bad, completely blowed out of proportion.


Last year SF sucked and they didn't have this problems,Bills the same, etc..

Dorsey can still save this.

Have you ever worked in an negative environment with poor leadership? You need strong leadership for cohesiveness, focus and working together to achieve a common goal. Throwing together talented individuals with unclear goals and poor direction does not work. Motivation and initiative go down the tubes.

J/C

Our team last year - Come get some

Our team this year - Come get me

Enough said about Freddie and his failures. Get rid of him.

SF and Buffalo didn't have 2 diva WR, either.

They also have good coaching.

Well Im glad Im not in a foxhole with someone when the fight looks over and just throws his hands up instead of shooting back. I dont believe great players EVER give up.

When it goes into your pockets and you start losing money and value, its natural...

Also you tend to get pissed when in the wins some will have no problems taking all the credits, but in the losses its a team loss.

Well Shobert and Landry have, so I guess they are not great.

As far as your other references, I was simply pointing out that we don't know how they would react.

And the thing about the military, if they have a leader that is not motivating their troops to run into battle head on, face and overcome adversity - typically they will rectify that leader and relive him of his duties as soon as possible.

In a war the number of officers shot on the backs is always the greatest...

Guys,

We have a chance to finally get this thing right.

1. Get rid of Dorsey
2. Get rid of Kitchens
3. Hire Nick Caserio as GM & President of Football Operations (Bill Bellichik's right hand man and Director of Player Personnel since 2008) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Caserio

Caserio does NOT have to be Bill Bellichik, what he has to be is a competent leader. A guy who changes how things work in Cleveland.

After we hire Caserio, we follow the Steelers/Patriots model. Caserio hires a Director of Player, these two guys work to hire the coach, and then these two guys also hire ALL of the Assistant coaches.

This is how the Steelers have done things for decades, and the Patriots done it this way prior to Bellichik's arrival.

Mike Tomlin was told who his assistants were going to be, he didn't go out and hire who he wanted.

We have to change our Front Office to work in this same manner so the strong executive(Caserio) is running the show. This will give us structure, leadership, and organization.

Even if that means we hire another assistant, that's OK, as long as the HC and the staff are hired collectively by Front Office (GM and Director of Player Personel)

If we can land Caserio, That pretty much means McDaniels would be our HC and I really like that idea. If anyone can make an offense that will work for Mayfield, its McDaniels. I may not be a big fan of Mayfield, but McDaniels would be our best chance of him working out longterm.

We need this to happen. Hire Caserio, let Caserio his a Director of Player Personel, and then get out of their way and let them hire the coach and assistants and work in a collaborative way like the Steelers and Pre-Bellichik Patriots did. Nick doesn't have to be Bellichik, he just needs to be a strong stabilizing factor and a professional. Thats it. Jimmy and Dee need to stay out of it after these people are brought in, watch, observe, and learn how an NFL organization is actually run.

We are not far off, and we don't have to hit a complete reset button. We just need real leadership, stability, and an actual plan. Its pretty obvious Dorsey is a good scout, but he has no plan at all that is a problem.

Jc

Looking at our roster, which players do we feel are TRULY part of the long term ANSWER at this point?

- Chubb
- Hunt
- Landry
- Bitonio
- Tretter


??

That sounds like an indictment of the "help", or lack thereof, to me.

Not that Kitchens is blameless, but he got a ton more dumped on his plate that he has to deal with.

He's the big picture guy now. Monken is the details guy on offense now.

In my opinion, our offensive problems are more on the execution (details) side.

People complain about "too many" pass plays, but when teams are leaning towards stopping the run on 1st downs, calling pass plays makes sense. Unfortunately, when someone runs a bad/wrong route or a lineman whiffs, those first down plays don't work. Once you're behind the chains, playcalling gets more difficult, especially when opponents continue to crowd the box presnap. Once you're in 3rd and long, it's not hard for defenses to guess what you are going to do. That's not a good recipe when your OL doesn't hold up well in pass protection.

Once we're behind and opponents go more prevent, running Chubb works. But, it's more dictated by box counts than Freddie's desire to give Chubb the ball more/less.

OBJ's health not being right all season hasn't helped the passing game. Neither did losing Njoku. Callaway being a knucklehead was also a problem. A bunch of our lower on the depth chart pass catchers (RSJ, Hodge, etc) not being in training camp, along with Harris being a major disappointment also seem problematic.

Freddie's not a position coach any more, though. It's not his job to get the individual players ready. To me, that seems to be the biggest area where we are struggling that isn't being talked about.

Managing a coaching staff is something else new that Freddie has to learn and hasn't had much help with. Plus, many of them are people he didn't really have history with which adds to that challenge. In that sense, "strong" coordinators might actually be problematic as far as dealing with egos.

That same report said, from an opinion perspective, that Kitchens would be coming back.

Talk about a double whammy.

Again, the gravest mistake the Browns have ever made in their 20 year rebirth is allowing Shanahan to walk away. They should have immediately fired Pettine after that PPT and promoted KS. Hands down biggest mistake. [/quote]

Shannahan was leaving. No way would he have accepted the HC position in this organization. The only way Shannahan would have remained is if Hasslam fired Pettine and Farmer and begged Shannahan to stay on. This still would not have been enough as Shannahan could not get out of here fast enough.

The worst part about he whole fiascoe is that the Browns were playing very good before they made the decision to pull Hoyer.

Post from cbs site that sums it up:

Unchallenged by anyone - Bob Wylie spoke out. He said the mid season success last year happened because of Ken Zampese and Al Saunders. It was said that both coaches altered Todd Haley's playbook, designed plays and Saunders was responsible for the success of the red zone. In addition, Freddie Kitchens himself admitted to the media that he used Todd Haley's playbook. We also learned it was the highly respected and successful Ken Zampese who developed Baker Mayfield last year.

Some grunted that Wylie was just a disgruntled employee.

But no one has proven Wylie to be lying. No one.

I don't have substantial evidence proving Bob Wylie to have told the truth. But what I do have is this...

...the red zone plays are the worst. Vastly different from 2018.

...the offense took a major step back from 2018.

...the execution and lack of discipline is absent from 2018.

...Freddie fired Ken Zampese and replaced him with a loser NFL quarterback with zero experience coaching quarterbacks Ryan Lindley. Not good considering Kitchens has so very little experience with quarterbacks himself.

...the play calling is vastly different than 2018.

...experienced players look lost, compared to 2018.

What's the difference between 2018 and 2019? No Al Saunders. No Ken Zampese. No Bob Wylie. No Todd Haley's playbook.

Freddie Kitchens has used smoke and mirrors to get promoted. He spent eleven years in Arizona, and was never promoted once. In fact, he was stripped of duties coaching tight ends and quarterbacks.

Freddie has been nothing but a runningback and tight ends coach for twenty years - and never got promoted. Never got to call plays. Never had a single NFL team call his name. Consider him to be an offensive coordinator, let alone a head coach.

Freddie Kitchens coached runningbacks and tight ends for twenty years...and today, still hasn't figured out how to use either.

Now, as I've been saying for sometime now, Freddie has lost the locker room.

Enter John Dorsey.

Your post makes all the sense in the world. Maybe it is time for a change.

Zampese was neither highly respected nor successful when he came to Cleveland. He was fresh off of being run out of town down in Cinci. As an OC, he took a relatively good offense (from the year before) and made it so bad he got tossed out on his butt in the middle of the season.

Otherwise, I agree with your post.

I think Dorsey made a huge gamble when he picked FK. Dorsey gambled and lost. What frustrates me most about the entire set up, is that FK as a first time HC with limited experience as an OC is allowed to call the plays. This is all on Dorsey's watch. We just saw what a disaster this was when Hue, who had many years experience as an OC and even some success as a HC could not pull off the double duty. But Dorsey thinks FK can pull it off?

I do believe the last 2 seasons have been better than what we have been used to, but at some point we have to make the playoffs.

I think Freddie needs to go and should never have been given the position in the first place. no doubt that the Browns have the talent to win, but just need the right guidance in getting there.

Who's next: Rivera is a popular choice. but in 9 seasons he only had 3 winning seasons. That does not scream "Need to get this guy!!!" I think he is a hell of guy and probably deserves another chance, but I don't know if he is what we need.

McCarthy is another popular choice. Super Bowl Champion Coach who rode a red hot future Hall of Famer to a World Title. Can he do it without Aaron Rogers?

I don't think either of these choices would be bad, they would definitely be better than anyone we have had since Marty. But I would make my target Pete Carmichael. He has been in a great system for years now, and it seems like his time to shine. His age would put him ahead of McCarthy in my opinion.

Obviously, nobody knows how these decisions will end up but they sure do look like better options than what we currently have.

I'd want somebody that doesn't have a set offense (or defense, if we hire from that side).

I say, hire a special teams coach. We need someone that knows how to lead and impose discipline. I think we need someone who can earn the job w/o part of his pitch being he has the next hot offensive trick(s).

I think that losing Al Saunders was the biggest loss from last year. He was assistant WR coach, and senior offensive assistant.

Since Freddie was named HC, I felt that the Browns were considering other possibilities.

Sometimes it can take a year for an alternative plan to materialize.

Nick Wright on Should the Browns clean house and build around Baker Mayfield?



Westbrook pretty much nailed it.

this isn't true...Zampese was very respected as a Offensive mind, from his work with QB's and the as a passing game coordinator for the Greatest Show on Turf, his dad pioneered the Air Coryell. Not to mention he was good with QB's like kitna, palmer, and even dalton looked the best under him. As an OC, sure he had issues, but working with Qb's he's very good and it was evident last year

I thought it was a good segment all round. As much as I personally think Baker is the future, I don't mind the honesty regarding how he has regressed and played this season. I think the HC and Offensive scheme needs to be fixed - I'd like to keep Baker, Odel, Landry and Co. I don't think we can keep Hunt, He's too good in his own right to play 2nd string to Chubb. While we've done well working Hunt into the game plan without reducing Chubb's touches and impact ... that role isn't going to keep Hunt happy in my opinion. I also think we need a more reliable TE, a FB and to improve the LT play and with that the O *should* be plenty good enough with the right HC and coaching staff in place.

I had high hopes for keeping Hunt. I thought if we made a serious run, and especially if we reached the playoffs, there would be a decent chance. Especially since he's from Cleveland and knows the frustration.

Instead he sees players taking plays off and wonders why some don't want to work hard enough to win... Besides all the other dysfunction.

He's as good as gone.

He certainly was run out of Cincinnati.

Bengals fire offensive coordinator Ken Zampese - NFL.com
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...tor-ken-zampese

After becoming the first team since the 1939 Philadelphia Eagles to open the season without a touchdown in two home games, the Cincinnati Bengals made a change.

The Bengals fired offensive coordinator Ken Zampese and announced quarterbacks coach Bill Lazor will take over coordinator duties, the team announced Friday. Lazor last coordinated the Miami Dolphins in 2014 and 2015. Before his stint in South Beach, Lazor worked under Chip Kelly in Philadelphia.

NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport first reported the development.

Zampese joined the Bengals in 2003 as the quarterbacks coach. He waited 12 years behind Bob Bratkowski, Jay Gruden and Hue Jackson (the latter two are currently head coaches) to finally earn the Bengals' OC job in 2015. He lasted just 18 games in the position.

"Ken Zampese has done a tremendous job for us for my 15 years here, and I have the utmost respect for Ken as a person and as a coach," coach Marvin Lewis said in a statement. "But I feel it best for the football team to breathe new life into the offense, and that's why I am making the change. Bill Lazor has great experience in the league and as a coordinator, and I feel Bill can progress our offense the way we need. We have a lot of talent on offense, and we need to keep working to take full advantage of the personnel we have."

The Bengals took a nose-dive last season across the board under Zampese, including sinking from seventh to 24th in points per game from 2015 to 2016. After generating an embarrassing nine total points, 258.0 yards per game, 79 rushing YPG, with four sacks per game in two losses to open the 2017 season, Lewis decided to make a change.

Thursday night's loss was particularly maddening for Bengals star players. The generally soft-spoken A.J. Green sounded frustrated after not getting enough chances to make plays:

"I need the ball in my hands somehow, somewhere, we gotta find a way to get me the ball," Green told reporters after the loss. "We're not doing that right now."

Green's frustration coupled with Andy Dalton's painful-to-watch regression led to the change.

All the Bengals struggles can't be pinned on Zampese. Dalton continuously looked flustered Thursday night, made head-scratching decisions and rarely gave his receivers a chance to make plays. The poor outing came after a five-turnover performance in Week 1.

Mix Dalton's poor play with a remade offensive line that struggled to block in both run and pass, and a muddled backfield rotation, and you get a limp offense. An even decent offensive output, however, could have had the Bengals at least at 1-1 and saved the coordinator's job.

The hope in Cincinnati is that the coordinator switch will lead to a more consistent backfield rotation, perhaps with Joe Mixon gaining a larger share, and an uptick in targets for Green.

The Bengals made the change staring down a possible 0-3 start with their next game Sunday, Sept. 24 against Green Bay at Lambeau Field.

He'll be an RFA after the season. He'll almost certainly be back next season.

Good listen. I think pretty much everything they said was spot on.

Can someone provide cliff notes?

basically Kitchens is the biggest issue and noone on team respects him because he hasn't done anything in the league and is in over his head, but baker is bad too and you can overcome bad coaching with a good qb and vice versa but can't have both and we currently do

Good eye... I don't know why I thought he was an UFA. So, does a 1st round tender make sense?

Ouch.

Thanks.

cool story, I never said that wasn't true that he was run out of Cinci...I said it wasn't true that he wasn't respected in the league. not like the Bengals got better after he left, the problems were alot deeper than Zampese. But his work in the 3 digit offense and with QB's has always been respected.

Add to that the Bengals are a joke of an organization (pot meet kettle, I know) and what they do with coaches makes little sense. Same organization that thought it was a good idea to bring back a certain you know hue.

Being run out of Cincinnati might be considered a plus on a resume .lol

.. Told my son to cinch his saddle extra tight when we hired Dorsey. Told my boy that he was one big Double edge sword. So far I feel fairly accurate.

All of us where jumping around with joy the second half of last season, and with good reason ! The Team had something going . Now with some talent on roster and some momentum all we needed to do was add to it over the next couple of years through the Draft and free agency to be a play-off contender Team.. Now here is were it gets dicey ! . Dorsey decides on reconstructive surgery instead of a nose job.

That's my story and I'm sticking it ! lol

The sword will start swing as soon as the forth quarter ends in a couple of weeks .. The Browns Soap opera " All my Brown's " or As the Brown Turns will be in full production.

I agree with their take, from your clip, on Dorsey and his role to fix this mess as well.

I honestly cannot believe this is where we are at again as Browns fans. It's just unreal.

You might be right... hell, hindsight seems to agree with you.... I honestly don't know how he's viewed throughout the league. All I know is that we got him via the scrap heap... and only because he knew Hue. That doesn't exactly scream well-respected/successful. The way you describe him, he should've been on people's lists for next whiz-kid HC hire.

every year we have the same freaking conversations.

do we have the right coach? do we have the right QB? do we have either? i think last season, and to be fair this season, we dont have to talk about drafting a QB....but its always either or, and in a lot of cases, both.

j/c...

Do our coaches even study our opponent to exploit their weaknesses when preparing a game plan? Do they even know our own strengths?

This is the main reason we need to oust Freddie. It's been the same story all year. We keep forcing "11" (and usually motion to an empty backfield in the process), and wonder why it doesn't work. Keep forcing that square peg!

yOu GoTta JuSt TrUzT yEr gUt. aNalYtIcKz R fER LooZeRs.

We need to oust Freddie because he lost the team, its only getting uglier if we don't.

The problem with this is our TEs aren't very good at blocking. We have success running with the group after we're behind because teams are content to let us run. When the guys the TEs are supposed to be blocking are dropping into prevent, running for 6 yards isn't that impressive.

Once we're behind, we need big plays. None of our TEs have shown to be big play threats. (RSJ possibly but his have mainly been blown coverages which are less likely against prevent) Our WRs on DBs might be a better matchup blockingwise than TEs on LBs, which says more about how bad the TEs are than how good the WRs are.

Some people are great communicators and position coaches and know how to break things down at that level, some are better at coordinating a side of the ball, some can make that leap and can be leaders and put it all together. I think Zampese is a great position coach, probably struggles with more responsibility, but his influence and being that guy that baker worked with after plays and helping install the gameplan showed. But some aren't meant to be more than position coaches, much like I think we are seeing with Kitchens.. Its why so many failed HC's who were good coordinators.

It's the Peter Principle.

I think anyone saying Kitchens needs time to learn how to be a HC, should read this sentence. Over, and over.

You hit the nail with this one, on why we need to cut ties with this guy. Hes as stubborn as a bull, and will not learn or adapt.

No cause for sexual innuendo.

This says everything about one aspect of Freddie Kitchens as HC in charge of play calling .... we've seen this issue ALL SEASON.

Except the same stats have been in close games where we were not behind by much .... and even in this game vs Arizona - the one set of stats are Q 1-3 .... your theory about our TE's not being good is somewhat valid and yes I agree we probably get some bump to stats in games we are behind ... but fact is we run better AND pass better our of big sets and when Baker is under center.

Looks like DePodesta is asleep at the wheel.

I am curious, how many of those plays were scripted vs how many were called. Its been notated that Monken helps with the scripted plays.

Are we running out of the more successful personnel grouping during the scripted plays, then when FK takes over calling the game - we change.....

That stat about 11 personnel is so damning

What an interesting concept and question. I would like to know how the scripted stuff is assembled, because his calls seem weird and leave us behind the sticks, which I believe helps to account for some of the picks Baker has had. Not all. But what part, if any, has our OC been playing? If his scripting is successful and we go to double-toothpicks when FK starts calling them, we must address that. Is the differential that we see purely personnel, like pulling Chubb when we have a few yards to get?

Get FK out of the play calling. The shovel pass experiment is DOA. Need some offense!

I was listening to a stat last night on the radio, they stated that on opening possessions, we are like 6th in the league for offense. After that, wellllllll garbage.

So it seems the scripted plays and opening drives are working. Then get lose track of it.

I am under the belief that Monken scripts the first series of plays, and then Freddie gets away with it and calls the game himself.

He’s busy helping out the Wizards ....

It's on the Athletic, so there may be a pay wall to deal with, but it's pretty good info in an article about numbers based football analysis.

Link

A decent bit of it seems relevant here.

I have given up on Kitchens. He deciding not to play Njoku was mind blowing. It was the same with them benching Randall for the Steelers game, one of the most important games of the year. Him not letting two of Baker's favorite targets to play, Njoku and Higgins, is bewildering. His attitude after games as if, oh well, there's next week, is tiresome.

I have never been one to want coaches fired, but this guy can't do the job, and I think the players are seeing it.

Just finished driving from Reno to Atlanta. Five days of driving. Damn my butt is tired.

Freddie?

I am far from a "fire the coach" guy. Normally I feel the head coaches that get hired and fired quick is a bad move. Wilks was one year guy. Normally not fair.


This last game against the Cards. Browns gave up 38 points. Hard to win a game giving up 38. This defense has been horrible against the run - again.

Wilks?


Offensively. We have Chubb, Odell, Landry, and Hunt. Not exactly slumming there. Then there is Baker.

Baker stills shows promise. However, for me the most disturbing aspect of his play is:
In multiple games he has had the ball late with a chance to win the game. And on those occasions; he has failed.

He has made some great throws but overall he has
been inconsistent and unimpressive.

Why?

Going into this season the coaches felt the defense would be the strength of the team. It has not been even when Myles played.

The offense has added Odell and subtracted Perriman and Callaway. They added Hunt. Still had Higgins and others. Lost Njoku at TE. Added guys who filled in.

Special teams got a new coach and overall has been a better unit than last year.

And here we are at 6-8. Why?

Hunt said some guys took plays off against the Cards. That is a bad indictment.

We lost games against poor teams Broncos, Cardinals, and Steelers. Had one signature win against the Ravens. Won a toss up game against the Bills. Won games against weak teams Jets, Bengals, Dolphins, Steelers.

With the talent and the schedule the only comment that can be accurately stated is the Browns have underachieved.

Average coaching and we win nine games.

So where does this leave the Browns? In my humbled opinion they have to evaluate the season and keep all options open.

Freddie right now should not be guaranteed the job. He does not deserve that. Wilks has been in charge of the defense. Freddie and Monken the offense. None of it has worked with the players the Browns have.

Tampa under Arians has scored 416 points the Browns 296.
How is that possible? How does TB outscore the Browns by that amount? Any stat that one looks in too; all point to a team poorly coached.

I was behind Freddie. Thought he would do fine. Have some struggles but not what this team has gone through. Malcontent, uncontrolled players. Excessive penalties of the worst kind. Questionable game plans, poor in game adjustments, questionable play calling.

I have tried to look for something done right and see nothing.

Dorsey can not let his ego get in the way here. He has cut bait with players he selected like Corbett. He has to look closely and coldly when evaluating this season under Freddie.

So, you think Kitchens was getting that significant level of help, yet somehow Dorsey didn't know about it or utterly failed to account for that??

Decent theory, but it doesn't hold water.

It may hold a little. I think it was assumed by many of us Haley probably assumed he was going to cash in on Hues failure. Even if that wasn’t true, his contributions put him on Dorseys radar such that he was fed up with him too. In the aftermath of that I don’t see it unreasonable to think everyone else would be in “keep your head down mode”.

Dorsey may have just misread the whole situation. Scouting for players isn't the same as selecting a head coach, and this was Dorsey's first head coaching hire.

From where I see it, Kitchens probably wouldn't have made one of the 3 best head coaches in the organization last year.

1. Gregg Williams
2. Todd Haley
3. Al Saunders
4. Kitchens (?)
...
99. You know who

I wasn't in the building so I don't know what happened, but I always thought Haley didn't get a fair shot here. The team was young, it was a new offense, and he had a freaking 0-16 head coach who would meddle and then talk about how "he's sitting in this chair now". It's just hard to predict how people will react in such a situation. It's like when Sashi "flubbed" the McCarron deal. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Some people will toe the line and some people will do what's best for the organization, but in situations like that you don't have the chance to do both.

Also, it's a lot easier to tweak systems that are already in place, especially when others are doing the heavy lifting in terms of team structure, discipline, etc. Being the head guy is a lot different. At the very least, he probably should have hired a guy with significant head coaching experience himself.

If Dorsey is THAT out of touch with what is happening inside his building and what is going on with his coaching staff, then HE *MUST* be fired.

That said, I find it difficult to believe or accept that Dorsey wouldn't know if Kitchens was getting help to that degree.... especially during a game while Freddie was calling plays. It simply doesn't make sense. Dorsey is no-nonsense, experienced, and a former player.... he KNOWS what it takes to do a job and I dont see him getting smoke screened like that.

I think you're right about that, but I'm also trying not to focus on specific details like that. I'm sure he knows what's going on in the building. There was a report earlier in the year where one of the Browns players was talking about how Dorsey would come walk through the weight room every day and how he would chat and was directly involved with the team. Those are good things.

I still think that he didn't accurately project how Freddie would do as the head guy. That seems pretty fair to say..

I agree 100%. Dorsey have have seen something in Kitchens that wasn't there as far as being head coach ..... but I doubt that he didn't know what was going on when Freddie was OC.

Best case scenario that I can put forth is that Dorsey took a chance on Freddie viewing him as being part of a new,younger, innovative wave of coaches while at the same time grossly underestimating the importance of need for discipline and structure.

That's a good way to put it.

Ryan had some interesting comments.. about Freddie and our Defensive coaching.

man.....ugh. then at the end talking about murray vs mayfield. ouch.

That, by itself, might be a fireable offense. And then there's all the other dumb stuff.

Wait, there's more....

Rex is a wiener but he's right here. Funny, they were shilling for Rex though. Big Texas sized pass on him please. I certainly hope guys are lining up for this gig. I'd be bold and start calling Haslam personally.

Just gallons of gasoline being poured on this thing.

Just defies logic

Don't worry about people not wanting the job. There are plenty of people who want the job. No need to even think otherwise.

I am excited about where it goes from here. I was one of those who wanted to hire Williams, but when we went with Freddie, it was...OK, and have supported him.

Last weeks game was the final nail. We need to make the change, and we will start that process the Monday after the final game. Actually, the process have begun. I am sure Dorsey and Depo are forming lists now.

That's part of the problem. Dorsey AND Depo are forming lists. It won't be about getting the best coach. It will be a pissing match between the two and they will make it more about beating the other guy.

This starts with the Haslams and the rotten organization they run.

Nothing will ever change with them running the team.

If we keep Freddie, we have to get rid of the 2 diva WR. That would be the only way that could work.

With the above comment we are on the same page .

Dorsey is probably one of the better talent evaluators I've seen here. But he is absolutely awful at building a team. He has failed miserably and blew a lot of the trades and draft picks. He has no plan.

Lucky for us he brought us a franchise quarterback, and a great running back. Haslam has to rectify this. Again.

Yes get some horrid WR so Baker has an excuse...

And yes please,lets get some players in here who don't mind losing...no Divas please...

Why would you want horrid receivers?

We were "fine" with just Landry. Bringing in OBJ screwed that all up. Now we should get rid of both.

you know, device, season is done but I have often wondered how different we would have been with perryman, peppers and the 17th pick. Our offense last year seemed to flow smoothly and efficiently. This year it just seems clogged up or something.

Full disclosure I was excited as heck when it happened because I thought it would put us in the top tier of afc teams. Like so many others I was wrong!

The team needs a Team President to keep that in check. With Dorsey having absolute say, noone can do anything despite the majority rule. Perfect example is the coaching hire..Depo and everyone else had Stefanski as the guy and Dorsey went with FK. Need a tie breaker other than Haslam

Why would OBJ screw anything...he's not one floating the balls and throwing picks...

OBJ is a great one, he does not have to prove himself.

I think some Browns fans are against OBJ because he does not provide an excuse for Baker.

Baker is one of the worst 5 QBs in the league this year, with Landry and OBJ.

OK, I've sat on the sidelines and read some of this BS without commenting...but this comment above attempts to paint a picture the author has no clue about.

device...do you really believe that Freddie was Dorsey's top pick for HC of the Browns?

Freddie was given a chance with the hopes he would become the HC some envisioned. That does not mean Freddie was the only choice the Browns were considering.

Honestly, Freddie could still prove to be the type of HC the Browns need to reach the ultimate goal, a Super Bowl victory. Based on the way the season has gone, the odds are "against Freddie", but those decisions are made by those in charge and not by a group of emotional Browns fans.

My take on the selection of Freddie as the Browns HC...the guy the Browns really wanted was not available when Freddie was named HC on Jan 12, 2019.

Freddie was the next best choice available to the Browns management & ownership at that time, Jan 12, 2019. Freddie may have been the "safest" choice with the hope he could become the Browns HC that ownership and management were looking for.

What happens after the end of this season will determine Dorsey's future with the Browns. Dorsey's ability to judge football talent has been good but his ability to judge coaching talent can be questioned....

...but, remember this, it may not have Dorsey alone who was responsible for hiring Freddie.

If the Browns ownership is looking for a "scapegoat", Dorsey is setup to be ownership's fall guy.

JMHO, but I believe the plan that the Browns ownership and management settled on in Jan 2019 was flexible enough to become a two year plan, with an option to get a second bite at the apple after the 2019 season.

Try to be patient for a few more weeks...

Who would that guy be?

I would like to know that as well. Who might we have really wanted?

Typical Bozo stuff..

Kitchens...first off they are miss leading on that comment. I took the comment to mean he was focused on the NOW not the Future.

Baker and Murray what a bunch of bozo's: they are basing that all on one game. Which btw this was his best game he played By far...and very average game played by Baker.

I would hate for us to fire Kitchens...we need some stability here. Everyone especially those Bozo's totally over evaluated the Browns cause they are basing it on Fantasy points not football.

The one thing that confuses me is where is Higgins who was a big reason for Baker's success last year. I get it that he was injured but he's been back for quite a while. Why is he not in there my goodness Hoge a practice player is getting more reps than him.

Cutting Calloway hurt although He was facing a 10 game suspension due to his drug thingy.

Losing Garrett hurt so so much The D is so different without him.

Not having Njoku has also really hurt Baker. Too much was expected just cause we added OBJ...because of his injury he has been a very average WR who has DROPPED more passes then caught it seems.

jmho

According to you it doesn't. We have no way to know what John Dorsey does or does not know.

You are under the impression he knows something you believe he should:

I think he should have known more about Callaway
I think he should have known more about Freddie
I think he should have known more about Odell telling teams to come get him
I think he should have known more about Higgins
I think he should have known more about the Chief
I think he should have known more about a lot.

Dorsey seems like the guy to that likes to give the benefit of the doubt - Callaway, Tyreke Hill, etc, even if it flies in the face of all logic.

Its very logical he could have interviewed Kitchens, and FK told him it was his offense, his plays, etc. We don't know.

My theory is that, just a theory. Your saying Dorsey knew - is just a that as well, a theory.

I am not sure it had anything to do with the roster changing, and more so the gameplan changing and the philosophies changing.

I basing it on the fact we have a much improved roster, and 0 improved results. In fact, we have won games DESPITE FK. There has not been a single game where we can say, "Freddie outcoached that guy"....we can say "Freddie got outcoached" multiple times.

This is on Freddie.

I don't think this hurt as much as you think - but it also wasn't helped by Freddie. 1. AC was a 3rd WR on the chart, and the fact we have Higs - who is more than enough capable of being our #3 and not playing because of well....Freddie, that's on him too.

I am going to go on a limb and say that if we had a HC that had control of his team, and respect, and discipline...that MG would still be playing. I put FK at some fault of the lack of discipline our guys have shown. Part of this is on Freddie.

Its not FK fault David has been hurt, buts hes ready to go, and we could have used him last week. That's on Freddie, now.

Other than Continuity, name one good reason or one good thing FK does......

I guess I only speak for myself, but I'm disappointed with OBJ because those magical hands he allegedly has have dropped far too many balls this season. Yes, Mayfield's accuracy has been real touch-and-go, so when he does put one on target it sucks when it's dropped.

He absolutely does have to prove himself, each and every Sunday. Sounds like his injury is slowing him down, but part of the problem with this team is the mentality that they (each and every person) doesn't have to prove themselves each and every game.


As far as OBJ 'screwing things up'... he didn't. Perhaps the coaches decision to turn this offense into something it's not at all good at hinged on getting OBJ on the team and putting the ball in his hands... but that's still not OBJ's fault. It's the coachs' fault.

oobs...you are not alone...those of us who thought OBJ would be a different player once free of the NYG...we learned that some players are what they are.

OBJs performance is a reflection upon who OBJ is...disappointing.

I didn't get that from Oob's post.

I'm disappointed in OBJ and he's dropped a lot of balls this year. But injury and FK offense certainly explain some of that. I'd love to see OBJ back healthy and under a better run play book.

And hopefully a playbook that OBJ studies enough that his buddy isn't telling him where to line up in week 12.

As a Browns fan I was told we were trading for HOF talent. The numbers certainly supported the case. After a season looking under the hood I see:
Someone who doesn't know the playbook.
Someone who doesn't fight for the ball.
Someone with a lot of drive-killing dropped balls.
Someone with a questionable commitment to "team".
A disruptive personality.
Someone who doesn't really care if he plays here.
Someone our QB can't trust because they are seldom on the same page.

The fancy one-handed snags are pretty sexy though.

When the ball hits you in the hands, you can't blame the O being ran for dropping the ball.

Now the injury may very well be why he isn't running free but when your QB puts the ball in your hands, you can't blame the HC for dropping it.

Freddie deserves a lot of blame, but let's not act like the O that's being ran is making him drop balls.

OBJ has been dealing with an injury all season. I can see how feeling like you're being stabbed in the gut when you twist wrong (or twist, period) could be distracting.

I like that OBJ wanted to play through it. However, in hindsight, it looks like someone should have shut him down to heal.

While we've greatly improved our facilities, we might need to rethink how we use them strategically. We might also need to upgrade our sports medicine personnel and training staff. Football is a unique animal (or sport), positions do radically different things, but taking a pounding is fairly universal. Injury prevention and recovery could possibly use an upgrade. Along with everything else, wearing down could be contributing to our "collapse."

Is it possible to work too hard? Do we need to work smarter?

Picking the brains of high end college strength and conditioning coaches might be in order.

This is where I was going with my post. The ball hasn't hit OBJ in the hands as much as it should have, and that's on Freddie and Baker (in that order, IMO). But when the ball has hit him in the hands, he's dropped it far too many times.

Yeah, it’s almost like OBJ is in his own head at this point. He’s dropped WAY too many for anybody’s liking. I don’t know if it’s lack of chemistry due to OTA/TC, lack of concentration, bad routes, poor play calling, etc. But if he’s gonna be here, we gotta figure it out

a lot of people don't realize this, but OBJ has a history of dropped balls.

He dropped a ton in NY - especially on crucial downs.

Sometimes when a WR keeps dropping the ball, your QB throws to someone he thinks will do a better job. Like Landry. Freddie isn't the only thing wrong here no matter how much some wish to make it so.

J/C .... even today, Baker has to help receivers line up correctly. Having to do so in game 14 is just sad.

J/c ...

I trust KJ ...

Only thing I don’t understand is if Freddie has lost the locker room ... why is he still here? ...

Short of him losing the locker room ... i don’t see him getting shown the door ... if he’s lost the locker room, he should be gone now ...

Signs point to he lost the LR.

We will find for sure 100% Sunday, that I can tell you.

Why u think he’s still here if he’s lost the LR? ...

Because he has to pay for it if he can't find it before he leaves.

I think its a major improvement, because before he didn't even pay attention to it..

Now, that he knows how to line the offense, maybe he can start to read offenses and change from some idiotic plays.

Sad that after 2 seasons he can't do it...

That is simply not true, you are making stuff up.

OBJ has one of the best hands in the history of the NFL. He isn't a possession receiver and can't be compared to one.His drop rates for the type of receiver he is are low.

OBJ is a vertical receiver and Baker simply can't do it, what is there more to explain? OBJ is not fit to dink donk.

OBJ has 14 yds average per reception and more than 8 years per target... He is a HOFER, respect the game and stop with all this non-sense.

Baker is one of the 5 worst QB's in the league and you are criticizing a Hofer, Superbowl winner receiver?

I don't want him gone, yet, but I agree with this completely.
I think we see one more offseason and season with him... with some serious re-tooling of that offensive scheme & philosophy to go along with more talent on D.

theres too much fire right now.. I don't think he's coming back..

There are few things riskier than doubling down on a risky play that didn't go well. Dorsey has risked and it didn't pan out, its time to do the smart thing and cut the losses.

Freddie is lost, you just have to listen the way media talks about him. The NFL didn't like his promotion and they are getting payback now.

On the other hand, Freddie has until now showed nothing positive... nothing that would make anyone believe he his the answer.

Team is bigger than any individual, keeping FK will only slow us.

That's about the last thing I'd take into account; especially the Cleveland media.

and yet, despite practicing one-handed grabs before every game, he still drops at least one every single game that hits him in both hands, or he doesn't get his hands up quick enough and it goes through them and hits him in the chest.

He has been really good this year, but he has NOT been great and it isn't anyone's fault or causation but his own.

j/c...

I'm absolutely stunned Mike Silver would make something up for clicks. Just stunned!

I think theres two weeks left in the season, with 0-little chance to make the playoffs, why do it know? Let him finish the year, and move on. Happens all the time.

the fact you don't realize that the giants last won in 2011, 3 years before Odell was drafted, pretty much sums up your knowledge of football.

I guess that means that Larry Fitzgerald sucks too and Calvin Johnson sucked when he played for Detroit. I mean if we're grading a WR on the record the team he plays for has.

where did you deduct that from anything I posted?

The dude said OBJ was a SB winning WR. He wasn't. Hes never played in a SB, or won one.

I was pointing THAT out. I never said he sucked. I simply pointed out that the dude is trying to be all over his jock - and didn't even know that hes never played in an SB.

He called him a "SB winning WR". . . ..

I never said OBJ sucked, or implied he did. Was pointing out that the next time the poster was trying to USE OBJ as a way to take a passive aggressive shot at Baker, he should get his facts right about that player.

Sorry. My bad.

No worried. I can see now where it could have been taken that way. text, stinks.

FYI, Odell is a very good WR, but for someone who "has the best hands in the NFL's history, I would think his catch percentage would probably be a little higher than it is. His best year was about 70%, which was his Rookie year.

In comparasion, his best year would put him at 18th on the best catch percentage THIS year in the league.

Great player, great at 1 handed catches. Best hands in NFL history, not even close.

Hell, he might not even have the best hands on this TEAM. I think Jarvis gives him a run for his money. He certainly has less drops.

Right now we are the 9th best team in the AFC … I wish we had secured a playoff spot but we still have a heartbeat. It's been a fun season for this fan regardless of who I will be watching wildcard weekend.

/ an anonymous steeler claiming OBJ said he wants to play for them is about as ridiculous as the new one about Landry
// "come get me" sounds more like trash talk "come get some"
/// Go Brownies

It does sound more like trash talk than anything else. But what would fans have be outraged about over that?

I think that you haven't heard it said, so to say it sounds one way or the other is disingenuous to be frank. Context is everything. We didn't hear it, or how it was said, so you are speculating.

I don't know if it was trash talk or if it was real, or if it was even said, so can you say it "sounds" more like trash talk?

I would think the sources who said they said it would know if they were saying it was trash talk to them opposed to real talk.

If you say "come get me" loud and flexing, that's trash talk.

If you say, "come get me" in a normal voice, at the end of a play, exasperated tone - that's not trash talk.

Context means everything. We don't know the context, to allude either way is wrong.

So who is it exactly you are depending on to tell you how they meant it?

Why let him finish the year if he lost the LR ... i don’t understand the logic ....

I’m not saying he hasn’t lost the LR ... i have no clue ... he may have ... i just don’t understand why if he’s lost the LR we’d keep him on ... makes no sense to me ...

Because at this point it makes 0 difference. If anything, punting Kitchens with 2 games left creates more drama and upheaval. Nobody on the staff is going to be retained (which coordinator has done enough to warrant the interim HC badge?). We are not going to make the playoffs either way, and unlike last year, we don't have enough time to turn things around via firing.

For the sake of argument I'll go along with the theory he has lost the locker room for the purpose of this debate.

What possible good would it do to name an interim HC with two games left?

I mean to me it was far more debatable to question if he had lost the locker room before the Arizona game. I think we both agree that giving a first time HC only one season to prove himself doesn't look good to future HC candidates looking at the possibility of considering Cleveland as their next destination. Could you imagine how much worse the optics would be to those potential HC candidates if Freddie wasn't even given the full season?

I don’t agree oooob ... bring in fresh blood, switch things up .. give the troops a jolt ...

If he’s lost the LR were a rudderless ship .. ok, more rudderless than it appears tp be now .. *L* ...

If he lost the LR make the change now ... give the troops a “jolt” something different ...

… if you listen to the propaganda network of the Cleveland Browns, it seems the setup for a fall guy is wilks (the drum was really beating right before AZ)

nobody has earned / deserves their jobs on this staff but I think the FO knows they need to make a sacrifice to the blood god and tag you are it

Give the troops a jolt in time for the off-season? Sorry, don't see the point.

If it were as little as 2 weeks ago, I'd wholeheartedly agree with you.

No one. Its one of those things, we will never truly know.

Just have to make an educated OPINION or GUESS as to what it really was.

But to say it was one way or other, I was just pointing out that either side is wrong if they do.

Pulling a "Ray Horton," eh?

I think there's a difference between a logical conclusion and a far fetched one.

Two reasons:

1. Who takes over - Monken or Wilkes. Niether honestly IMO are going to be a good option, so there really is no difference.

2. If the FO knows they are canning Freddie, and have outside idea of who they want or a list of guys, the last thing they want is to can FK and then we beat Baltimore and cincy under Monken. Then the "keep monken" train will start. Its best to just let them finish the year and wipe the slate clean IF that is whats going to happen.

Honestly, idk if they are going to can him. I think they should, I think if we get blown out this week they will. But if we give a good showing this week and win next week, I can see the case for keeping him and making other changes.

But that's not we are talking about in this post, so we wont go down that road. . .

For your question only - with two weeks left, your out of the playoffs more than likely, and you don't want either of the guys behind him as your gonna can them too - let him finish the year and move on.

Agreed, there is. I am not debating that is a real possibility you are correct. I am saying that posting as if it is correct, is wrong. That's all.

I didn't know saying, "It does sound more like trash talk than anything else" was saying it was correct.

Thats one way to go i guess ... i just don’t agree with it ...

I’m certainly not going to keep him cause I’m worried about whoever takes over winning the last 2 and the ground swell of support for me to keep that person the following year ...

Thats just silly bro ... your reaching on that one ..

I have refrained from posting most of this season but to say I’m disappointed is a massive understatement.

The only thing I will say. If we had played disciplined, well executed, well prepared ball this season, with the infusion of talent, we’d be sitting fairly prettily. We were playing disciplined, well executed and well prepared ball end of last year. It’s the most frustrating season I’ve ever watched. We’ve absolutely handled Baltimore at their house. Then we turn into the pumpkin. That kind of inconsistent is on the coaches. Plain and simple. Urgh.

And to a large degree I certainly agree with that. What does puzzle me is when posters attribute things to the coaches that isn't on them.

I don’t think I did? I think I posted a very balanced narrative. My main point is the difference in attitude, preparation and execution between now and then. Plays are getting in late. Baker is having to tell guys where to line up for the love of all things orange. Who’s that on? Where’s the accountability for that? It’s more frustrating than the 1-31 because it’s all mental.

I blame OBJ for all the balls he's dropped.

I account for a certain amount of drop off in OBJ's ability to get open (by his own standards of shiftiness and separation) to his injury.

I blame Baker for missing open WR's much, much more frequently than a franchise QB should.

I blame Freddie for not having a scheme that makes more use of OBJ's talent and every other WR on the team. I blame Freddie for throwing too much - and for not adjusting to Baker's struggles.

In the post I made initially I didn't blame anyone but OBJ for his drops - and I see you have another new post talking about posters blaming drops on other things - or about posters blaming coaching for things that aren't the coaches responsibility .... I'm curious to know what you think you are reading ?

I blame Freddie and Monken for the fact that 3 or 4 other teams have come out after our game and admitted they KNEW what we were going to do before we did it on most plays. If 3 or 4 picked up on it, the other 11 or 12 did too, they just didn't say anything.

The Cardinals defensive coordinator came out before the game and said our plays are predictable.

You know, will, the weather has sucked lately. I guess that is on Freddie too?? lol

And yes, OBJ has dropped more catchable balls than I’d expect. Landry has been the #1 playmaker without doubt. I have always liked him and I hope he stays a Brown a long time. I hope the same for OBJ. We need quality. I think those two together wreaking havoc would be beautiful to behold. Saying that, I’d rather Chubb / Hunt ran 30 times a game. Man, we have so much offensive talent it’s galling.

Making a minor sacrifice is really just kicking the can down the road. If I'm Dorsey, I realize this isn't about Freddie's job, it's about mine. Dorsey can get a do-over on butchering his coaching selection if he fixes it now and fixes it right. If his decision is to ride another year with Freddie and it turns out to be anything less than a solid playoff season... then not only is Freddie gone, Dorsey is likely gone with him.

I'm not in the building every day to know what's going on but from my couch, if you asked me to put MY JOB on the line that Freddie can pull this together?.. I don't think so.

This is how I envision all of our coaches meetings during the week:

Asst. Coach: I've watched all the film. Our opponent struggles to stop the run and their offense really struggles when you blitz them a lot.

Other Asst. Coach: Yea, I saw the same thing. It seems obvious but, what game plan are we setting up?

Freddie: It is obvious, we aren't going to run the ball or blitz because that's what they'll be expecting........

I see you continually criticizing other posters for finding and detailing issue with our coaching staff ... but instead of supplying reasons why they are wrong, or an alternate viewpoint you call them 'geniuses' or poke fun at them. If you think Freddie is doing a great job - please provide some context for that perspective.

I think Mike Priefer has done a pretty great job. I'm not sure he's qualified to be a HC, but he did improve our Kick/Punt teams over last year. The thing I like about ST coaches being Head Coaches is that they are smart enough to know what they don't know, and are more willing to delegate to their OC and DC. Bill Cowher comes to mind when I think about ST coordinators who became successful HCs. There's others, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

Edit: John Harbaugh was the ST coord whose name escaped me.

The Browns likely won't want the guy that was suspended 3 games for saying, “We should round up all the gays, send them to an island, and then nuke it until it glows," leading the franchise.

They've had enough headaches in the PR department.

Do things like that and let’s say Bountygate really prevent those guys from getting HC gigs? If the team is willing to hire them as a coordinator, it’s not like that’s a low profile position either. Sean Payton was banned for his role in Bountygate and they still held his job for him. If he decided he wanted a change of scenery, I’m not sure another team would say no to hiring him over it like some tend to attribute to GW.

We can forgive domestic abusers, habitual drunks and drug abusers, even felons, but God forbid we forgive a guy who told an offensive and regrettable joke that witnesses say the "offended" person (Chris Kluwe) laughed at. He was suspended without pay, sent to sensitivity training, widely castigated and humiliated, and he then apologized publicly. But that's clearly not good enough, nor will it ever be. Maybe Oprah Winfrey, Phil Donahue, or Dr Phil will take the job, because I doubt you'll find a football guy who never told an off-color joke.

Just noting the likely reality of the situation of Priefer becoming our HC.

I have a theory I want to throw out there. Maybe the players haven't soured on Freddie, but maybe it's Baker. How many games have we seen Jarvis or Odell open and the ball thrown over their head and intercepted, or not even thrown their way? The passing game IMO, next to horrible schemes, is suffering more from Baker's poor play, than playcalling IMO. He has a progression, I doubt he is told throw to one guy only on a given play. Freddie has his own problems, don't get me wrong, but Baler has not been good. Without garbage time this past week, he wouldn't have even broken 200 yards against a team giving up an average of 300+ weekly.

Just a thought

As for the "horrific collapse", I see the Cardinals game as step one. If these guys show the same effort against Baltimore at home, I would call that the final nail. Losing to Cinci would throw the dirt on the coffin.

If this were early in the season and everyone were healthy, maybe. Our defense stands no chance as is (assuming no Vernon.) Plus there's the likelihood that these games are likely meaningless anyways. We're ~99.9% out of the playoffs. Winning would really only drop us further down the draft board and maybe make us drop down a tier on the available OTs when we pick.

We might both be trying to lose in week 17.

Sad, but some of Dorsey's decisions after Myles' suspension looked like he was going full Sam Hinkie on the rest of the season.

If we can work on specific aspects of something and get better, that's great. I'm not worried about winning when it no longer matters and our roster is missing key pieces.

Maybe the players have just soured on losing. Who can blame them? Losing sucks.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda, win two of these games and we would be in very good shape.

Denver, Cardinals, Steelers.

If you are a playoff caliber team; you can not lose those games. Cardinals with a rookie quarterback and three wins.
Denver started a guy who had never played a NFL game. And then we lose to a guy named Duck. A undrafted, third string quarterback with zero NFL experience.

The worst thing about this season is expectations versus results.

Something is wrong when you look at the players on the Browns and their record.

At the end of last season I could not wait to play again. As this season progressed it became close to unwatchable.
I have looked at this every which way. In the end analysis
the head coach's job is to get the most from every player on the team.

Some players like Chubb, Landry, Schobert, Bitonio, Tretter and probably others have played well. But those guys are made that way. They are self motivated.

Some of the others I am not sure about?

The question is did this team reach it's potential?

Blaming players is ok but did the team underachieve?

The next question has to be Freddie.

Is he worth keeping? If the record is on him will he improve?

Or, are there better options?

Haslam owns the team. It really is up to him. If Dorsey fights for Freddie then he believes he will get better. If Dorsey gives up on Freddie. It is over for him.

My guess is Haslam will want him gone.

As a lifelong fan, I could never say this

The players know why they are losing. They see the film. Losing brings out the blame game, and I have to believe that when they watch the film, they know who is to blame.

Sorry Mac. I don't agree, even if I have mellowed a bit and consider you a friend and try to agree.

I don't think OBJ is disappointing. A player doesn't go from one of the most dynamic in the league to a "average Joe" at his age unless something is causing it.

There are factors in play that are causing him to look rather average, and it isn't just OBJ.

Interesting take. Baker clearly isn’t the same charismatic leader he was last year. It’s probably not helping matters, but I don’t think he’s been so bad that he’s the primary source of the overall team demeanor.

Jarvis seems to be getting his. If he had a problem with Baker I’d think we’d see him yelling at Bake, not Lindley and Freddie. Unless there is some seriously bad blood between he and Bake.

We gave up 38 points.

Not many games are won when you can not stop the oppositions offense.

Just clicking.

Here's a question. When all is said and done, who is going to be our head coach for game 1 of the 2020 season?

1) Freddie Kitchens
2) Someone other than Freddie Kitchens

If you had to put your money on one of those, which would it be?

I'm going with 2) someone other than FK. Call it a gut feeling, but it's a gut feeling based on how the season has transpired and some of the distractions along the way.

Baker is one of the 5 worst QB in the league this year, so yes he's the primary source of problems in this team, he and the HC.

Let me rephrase that. taking into consideration the quality of the OL receivers and support cast, Baker is hands down the worst QB in the league this year.

Obviously there will be one very important meeting between Haslam and Dorsey.

That meeting will decide Freddie's fate.

As I stated it is my belief that Haslam will want to make a change. Haslam has turned football operations over to Dorsey. So he will listen to Dorsey. If Dorsey makes a strong enough case to keep Freddie; Haslam may accept his viewpoint and Freddie remains.

If Dorsey wants to move on; it is over for Freddie.

If Dorsey states his position and Haslam strongly disagrees Freddie is toast.

IMO Haslam went along with Dorsey on the selection of Freddie however he may have had reservations.

So Dorsey has to be very convincing in his argument to keep Freddie.

In the end Haslam will do as he sees fit.

I hate when there is no plan B... its always a sign that plan A is not that good.

Why do we keep on doing this? On the bye week it was already clear this was not going to work out...

I admit I waffle on this quite a bit, but if I'm putting money on it, I'd put my money on Freddie being the coach in 2020.

At some point, someone has to believe in the decisions that were made instead of changing GMs or HCs every other year.

I don't believe in bad continuity, but at some point you either need to realize you aren't cut out to make those decisions or you made the right decision.

Its also about being smart..cutting your losses. Its hard for me to believe that Kitchens is such a genius that its worth all of this. I felt the same about Hue.

Its not working has it was supposed, don't make it worst by going all inn, its not the smart thing to do.

Its very hard to manage a group when you are willing to do anything for some guys who have showed nothing, and then ask for accountability to the others.

Honestly its playing favorites, and that will break any group.

You know, when the news came out that OBJ had been injured all year I thought it would explain a lot to the fans about his production. I thought they would not only understand but give him credit for fighting through that injury.

For some it did. For others it seems they are still desperately looking for a scape goat.

Reasonable points. I think it can be argued either way, really.

Hopefully others see this discussion for what it is: what we think is going to happen, not necessarily what we want to happen

When you criticize a receiver that has 8 yds average per target you sure have high standards... but then they defend the worst QB in the league.. weird.

They also don't see OBJ and Landry are part of the same package...

When that QB puts the ball in the receiver's hands or in his breadbasket and he doesn't catch it, that's on the receiver and he has earned his criticisms.

When you start criticizing the hands of one of the receivers with best hands in the business, that should tell you something. You really have to be a bad QB for OBJ to drop it...

I also fail to see all this drops fans are complaining off...

Its also normal for a receiver that has 14 yds average per reception in his career to have a higher number of drops.

Sure when you pair OBJ with a dink donk QB,can't throw outside the numbers to save his life, its not going to work well...

And by the way, there are no receivers tall enough for us to consider Baker is putting the ball on his hands.. and yes he has been that inaccurate...

You are being completely hypocritical. You want to judge Baker on his performance. But you want to judge OBJ on his history and reputation. Pah. OBJ has dropped A LOT of passes that hit both his hands this year. He's been out of position and not lined up in the right slot a ton this year. And he gets a pass and you want to blame Baker ! LOL.

lol, man, you are REALLY trying hard to troll that stance, aren't you?

If the ball touches the receivers hands or comes directly into their body, it should be a catch... especially if you want to be considered as supposedly having some of the best hands in the business.

A receiver that is allegedly that good would catch it even from a crappy QB like Bridgewater or Manziel. Any receiver that can't, well, they're definitely NOT "HOFer" material.

No, he's trolling and seeing how many he can get to bite.

How can you say?
"criticizing the hands of one of the receivers with best hands in the business, that should tell you something. You really have to be a bad QB for OBJ to drop it..."

That makes no sense... ball is thrown to a receiver and hits him in the hands, said receiver should catch the ball, blaming Baker for OBJ dropping a ball by saying he is the worse quarterback in the league, now you are reaching.

and then you went on to say:
"Its also normal for a receiver that has 14 yds average per reception in his career to have a higher number of drops.

Sure when you pair OBJ with a dink donk QB,can't throw outside the numbers to save his life, its not going to work well...

Again you are reaching... you cant say in one quote Baker is a dink donk QB and than go on to say a receiver having 14 yards a reception.... 14 yards per reception is quite decent that wouldn't happen with a dink donk QB.

Sometimes I wonder what games people are watching.... OBJ is still on pace for over 1000 yards this year (needs only 90 yards in two games) and Jarvis already has over 1000 at 1018.... when was the last time we had 2 receivers top 1000 yards in the same season? It was 2007 btw.

Just my 2 cents.

Here's a follow-up question

Will whomever they select
A) work out?
B) be a complete disaster?

I'm voting for B.

I think we should give Freddie more time. I don't think Monken and he were a good fit. Maybe they can work it out and grind off the rough edges/round the square peg, maybe not. Some stability at the top might be nice. Even though Hue was here for awhile, I'm not sure I'd use stability to describe his reign. He was kind of mercurial.

I wonder if we could entice Jay Gruden to replace Monken? His system might be a better fit for what we had working here last season. He has some ties to northern Ohio, having been born in Tiffin.

I think anyone new would also have to try to cobble together a staff and might end up with similar fit issues.

Addendum: One of the problems with the Kitchens hiring, I think, is that he really hadn't been looking for a HC job. I don't think he had spent a ton of time considering the staff he would want to put together. He'd just been a position coach. He may have had some vague ideas about how he would do things if he was in charge, but I'm thinking he didn't have names of potential underlings worked out.

It kind of looks like he was given a list by someone (Dorsey?) to choose from after he had the job. His ideal candidates may not have been available (or on the list.)

He'd been used to focusing on his room's players. Now he's got to look at the coaches who are looking at all the players. It's a big adjustment.

Still, I think he has some good inherent characteristics. Consistency and ability to relate to players are important. He might just need some schooling/seasoning on the organizational management side of things which he'd never previously really had to worry about.

His lack of experience in those areas should have been obvious when he was hired. To fire him already seems hasty.

He needs to develop fast. This off-season could be make or break as during the season isn't a great time to worry the organizational side of the job as opposed to the more directly football stuff.

If he doesn't show improvement next year now that he knows what he needs to improve and has time to do it, that's when firing could better be justified.

I really don't disagree that Monken is a bad fit because our personnel, especially along the OL is not suited for an air raid offense.

Yet at the same time it was Freddie who chose his coaching staff so it appears the system Monkin put in place is the preferred system Freddie wanted to run.

Baker Mayfield flourished in the Air Raid offense in Oklahoma, so it made sense at the time...

OL don't float balls and fail to see open receivers, so cut with that excuse... NO OL in the league can give that much time to a QB

j/c...

Never a good sign for the future of the coaching staff when they are out pleading their case to the media about the positives they've done this year. Last week it was Freddie.

I think they all know they're gone.

What question was he responding to?

Oh my aren't we the sensitive one today. You just can't see that there are more than one reason that the air raid isn't a good fit here. You simply wish to focus on Baker and ignore other reasons.

The OL is one reason. The air raid depends on your OL giving your QB enough time for long pass plays to develop. We don't have the OT's to do that.

So yes, the OL is ONE reason.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled agenda.....

I recommend reading The Packer Way. I know Eo has read it.

In that very book they discuss how the entire Packer organization was complacent with the 7-9 record because it was seen as improvement.

Ron Wolf was hired as GM and he couldn't believe what he was hearing. The organization was content with the status quo. No one there had the urgency to win.

We should have never been 0-16, but using the excuse that we were and how much better 6-8 is now is complacency. We probably should redo the entire organization if this is the thinking.

The Patriots don't think like this. The Steelers don't think like this. The Ravens don't think like this. There's a reason why these franchises continue to win and we don't.

It was this line of thinking that Wolf eliminated in Green Bay and the franchise started winning.

I still can't believe he actually said this. This is grounds for removal, period. Embarrassing.

Absolutely. It's pretty lame. They know they're gone.

Oy vay. I just want the coaches to stop talking. I'm embarrassed for them.

Someone let Freddie know it's week 16.

I actually like Priefer and think he's done a good job.

I hope the next coach retains him.

Eh, we rank 17th in STs. He looks great b/c Amos was so bad. He's replaceable.

Also, hard pass on someone with this mentality.

The FIRST thing you learn during your FIRST year of organized football...

McCarthy or Rivera or Bust.

Who is this Bust guy you speak of?

Dolly Parton's husband.

Wolf's 1st 3 seasons in Green Bay were 9-7, 9-7, 9-7. An Improvement from 7-9 ........ but hardly #1 seed records. They did make the playoffs in 2 of those seasons, losing in the Divisional round both times. It wasn't until year 4 that they went 11-5, and then the next 2 going 13-3, with a Super Bowl win in there.

Bear in mind that they also hit the jackpot with Favre.

I will say this .... I think that this team needs a few players who have been on winning teams, to show the other guys just how to prepare to get to that level.

Pretty typical coach response showing support for the others on the staff.

However, the numbers do not a work out.

Bruce Ariens and the Bucs have outscored the Browns 418 to 297.

The Bucs top runner Ronald Jones has 541 yds.
Top receiver Chris Godwin 1333.

Hard to understand how the Bucs have a better record and have outscored the Browns by that much.

No matter how anyone looks at this the Browns have underachieved.

Arians is a good coach. He was 49-30-1 as head coach of the Cardinals, and that was with late-career Carson Palmer as his best QB. I remember Drew Stanton and Blaine Gabbert getting some time in a well.

We ignored his pleas to become the Browns head coach and hired his old running backs coach instead.

I'm not saying he is the guy we should have hired. That would be a little bit too much of revisionist history for my liking... but couldn't we have at least given him an interview?

Nah, if we weren’t going with Gregg, arians should’ve been the hire.

The "idea"of Arians sounds great in theory. But if you're looking for a long term solution to build around he was not the solution. When you combine his health and his age he would not have been a logical answer.

I understand to this point it doesn't look like we found it, but not hiring an aging coach with big time health concerns was quite understandable to me.

Device, I do not get that at all from what priefer said. He is saying look where we came from. You might not think we deserved 0-16 but I think we deserved every stinking loss. All 31 over two years. He is not satisfied and 6-8 is not our goal. But as Dorsey said this is a process and we are just in year two.

Remember the old definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Well, we have hired and fired multiple coaches, gms, presidents etc for nigh on two decades. What do we have to show for it. 20 years of futility. It is time we stay the course and build this program.

Well, if you won't say it, then I will.

Arians should've been the hire. His age/health was almost a bonus. Have Arians come in and get the party started and then turn it over to Kitchens (who we would've 'promoted' to full-time OC an heir apparent).

I'm usually all about challenging revisionist history and NOT using hindsight to justify/argue a previous decision, but I don't feel even a little bit bad about it here.

He volunteered to have a comprehensive health screen done as one of the conditions to be hired by the Bucs. I'm sure he would have done the same for the Browns.

Of course, other things can pop up. I get that. However, he even had a succession plan in place as he would have kept Freddie onboard as offensive coordinator, which was really the only promotion for Freddie that made sense at the time. The idea was to give him more time to develop and improve as a coach and he'd maybe someday take over.

or not. You never know. Maybe we'd find out he was just an OC and hire somebody else in due time. But in the short term you focus on winning, building a better culture with discipline, structure, etc.

I never expected the Browns to hire him as head coach but I do wonder why he was never even taken seriously enough to interview. Too big of a name and too strong of opinions, perhaps?

You make good points although I am not trying to hold anything back.

My thoughts at the time were along the lines of Freddie being named offensive coordinator was a fair and reasonable promotion.

As far as the head coaching search, I don't think fans can really add much because we are not part of the interview process. I think you really have to look at a coach's intelligence, work ethic, character/leadership/etc. and this isn't always reflected in X coach led the league in Y stat.

I do think Arians should have at least been part of the interview process, at the very least. If you say he should have been hired, well it's hard to argue that. The fact that the Bucs have a better record than the Browns this late in the season is astounding.

I think it is possible Dorsey is furious at Freddie and wants him out. Dorsey put together a super talented roster and gave Freddie the keys. Freddie was incompetent by any measure, and he has done such a poor job it has people questioning Dorsey.
I am not sure Dorsey is going to defend him.

The best laid plans, and all that. In military campaigns the plan is sold as put in place until contact with the enemy in real time. Then it is about adjusting and winning. We haven't done either well. Our game planning is suspect IMO. Scripted goes well then off the rails when FK takes it. Behind the sticks for two, force a bad pass, overthrown too often, and Hammer Time. Defense usually folds.

The weekly repeat is hard to take. Can't imagine this steamy product is what Dorsey wanted.

Alternate coaches or change in duties would seem solid activities to me.

I don't see the problem with him saying that stuff. It's pretty spot-on, actually, so where's the issue?

There were a bunch of candidates. Arians campaigned for the job.

Haslam and Dorsey made their call. No looking back.

My point is Arians has done way more with less. And that is a valid way to measure a new hire.

I hate the thought of firing a guy after one year. Hate it.

However, I look at this season and coaching stands in front of a line of problems.

I continue to support Dorsey. I believe in the guy. He knows what talent looks like. Nobody is a perfect GM. All make mistakes. It comes with the job.

He made the Freddie hire. He also drafted Corbett. He accepted the error in Corbett and moved on.

Dorsey has to look at alternatives. If he does not see the right fit then he should keep Freddie.

If he sees someone who he believes can do better then he should pursue that person.

J/C...I haven't read every single post of this 11 page thread. However, I would like to say that one major thing that is getting forgotten in all of this is the Zampese firing and Lindley hiring. All coaches bring in their own guys, it is a league of nepotism. However, Wylie said it and we all scoffed at it...now look where we are. Zampese has a proven record, no his stint at Cincy didn't end well. But, Lindley was brought in and tasked with working with a #1 draft pick franchise QB in his sophomore year. Lindley has NO EXPERIENCE what so ever yet he was given this huge title. All of us are wary of firing and rehiring simply because our history hasn't been kind, BUT....if we keep FK my feeling is he HAS to be told to fire or demote Lindley, bring in a true and proven QB coach and if we keep Monken then he should also release play calling to TM.

There is no questioning that Baker has regressed.

Why and how is hard to pin down.

I know what Wylie said but IMO that has to be taken with a grain of salt.

The fact is Zampese is out of the NFL. And his record with the Bengals was not good.

If he was held in great regard given his history and lineage; he would be employed in the NFL.

In addition he would also have been given better opportunities than a qb coach.

Fair enough. But...Lindley is clearly NOT the guy either.