DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Report: Browns plan to retain Freddie Kitchens 'barring a horrific collapse'

According to you it doesn't. We have no way to know what John Dorsey does or does not know.

You are under the impression he knows something you believe he should:

I think he should have known more about Callaway
I think he should have known more about Freddie
I think he should have known more about Odell telling teams to come get him
I think he should have known more about Higgins
I think he should have known more about the Chief
I think he should have known more about a lot.

Dorsey seems like the guy to that likes to give the benefit of the doubt - Callaway, Tyreke Hill, etc, even if it flies in the face of all logic.

Its very logical he could have interviewed Kitchens, and FK told him it was his offense, his plays, etc. We don't know.

My theory is that, just a theory. Your saying Dorsey knew - is just a that as well, a theory.

I am not sure it had anything to do with the roster changing, and more so the gameplan changing and the philosophies changing.

I basing it on the fact we have a much improved roster, and 0 improved results. In fact, we have won games DESPITE FK. There has not been a single game where we can say, "Freddie outcoached that guy"....we can say "Freddie got outcoached" multiple times.

This is on Freddie.

I don't think this hurt as much as you think - but it also wasn't helped by Freddie. 1. AC was a 3rd WR on the chart, and the fact we have Higs - who is more than enough capable of being our #3 and not playing because of well....Freddie, that's on him too.

I am going to go on a limb and say that if we had a HC that had control of his team, and respect, and discipline...that MG would still be playing. I put FK at some fault of the lack of discipline our guys have shown. Part of this is on Freddie.

Its not FK fault David has been hurt, buts hes ready to go, and we could have used him last week. That's on Freddie, now.

Other than Continuity, name one good reason or one good thing FK does......

I guess I only speak for myself, but I'm disappointed with OBJ because those magical hands he allegedly has have dropped far too many balls this season. Yes, Mayfield's accuracy has been real touch-and-go, so when he does put one on target it sucks when it's dropped.

He absolutely does have to prove himself, each and every Sunday. Sounds like his injury is slowing him down, but part of the problem with this team is the mentality that they (each and every person) doesn't have to prove themselves each and every game.


As far as OBJ 'screwing things up'... he didn't. Perhaps the coaches decision to turn this offense into something it's not at all good at hinged on getting OBJ on the team and putting the ball in his hands... but that's still not OBJ's fault. It's the coachs' fault.

I didn't get that from Oob's post.

I'm disappointed in OBJ and he's dropped a lot of balls this year. But injury and FK offense certainly explain some of that. I'd love to see OBJ back healthy and under a better run play book.

And hopefully a playbook that OBJ studies enough that his buddy isn't telling him where to line up in week 12.

As a Browns fan I was told we were trading for HOF talent. The numbers certainly supported the case. After a season looking under the hood I see:
Someone who doesn't know the playbook.
Someone who doesn't fight for the ball.
Someone with a lot of drive-killing dropped balls.
Someone with a questionable commitment to "team".
A disruptive personality.
Someone who doesn't really care if he plays here.
Someone our QB can't trust because they are seldom on the same page.

The fancy one-handed snags are pretty sexy though.

When the ball hits you in the hands, you can't blame the O being ran for dropping the ball.

Now the injury may very well be why he isn't running free but when your QB puts the ball in your hands, you can't blame the HC for dropping it.

Freddie deserves a lot of blame, but let's not act like the O that's being ran is making him drop balls.

OBJ has been dealing with an injury all season. I can see how feeling like you're being stabbed in the gut when you twist wrong (or twist, period) could be distracting.

I like that OBJ wanted to play through it. However, in hindsight, it looks like someone should have shut him down to heal.

While we've greatly improved our facilities, we might need to rethink how we use them strategically. We might also need to upgrade our sports medicine personnel and training staff. Football is a unique animal (or sport), positions do radically different things, but taking a pounding is fairly universal. Injury prevention and recovery could possibly use an upgrade. Along with everything else, wearing down could be contributing to our "collapse."

Is it possible to work too hard? Do we need to work smarter?

Picking the brains of high end college strength and conditioning coaches might be in order.

This is where I was going with my post. The ball hasn't hit OBJ in the hands as much as it should have, and that's on Freddie and Baker (in that order, IMO). But when the ball has hit him in the hands, he's dropped it far too many times.

Yeah, it’s almost like OBJ is in his own head at this point. He’s dropped WAY too many for anybody’s liking. I don’t know if it’s lack of chemistry due to OTA/TC, lack of concentration, bad routes, poor play calling, etc. But if he’s gonna be here, we gotta figure it out

a lot of people don't realize this, but OBJ has a history of dropped balls.

He dropped a ton in NY - especially on crucial downs.

Sometimes when a WR keeps dropping the ball, your QB throws to someone he thinks will do a better job. Like Landry. Freddie isn't the only thing wrong here no matter how much some wish to make it so.

J/C .... even today, Baker has to help receivers line up correctly. Having to do so in game 14 is just sad.

J/c ...

I trust KJ ...

Only thing I don’t understand is if Freddie has lost the locker room ... why is he still here? ...

Short of him losing the locker room ... i don’t see him getting shown the door ... if he’s lost the locker room, he should be gone now ...

Signs point to he lost the LR.

We will find for sure 100% Sunday, that I can tell you.

Why u think he’s still here if he’s lost the LR? ...

Because he has to pay for it if he can't find it before he leaves.

I think its a major improvement, because before he didn't even pay attention to it..

Now, that he knows how to line the offense, maybe he can start to read offenses and change from some idiotic plays.

Sad that after 2 seasons he can't do it...

That is simply not true, you are making stuff up.

OBJ has one of the best hands in the history of the NFL. He isn't a possession receiver and can't be compared to one.His drop rates for the type of receiver he is are low.

OBJ is a vertical receiver and Baker simply can't do it, what is there more to explain? OBJ is not fit to dink donk.

OBJ has 14 yds average per reception and more than 8 years per target... He is a HOFER, respect the game and stop with all this non-sense.

Baker is one of the 5 worst QB's in the league and you are criticizing a Hofer, Superbowl winner receiver?

I don't want him gone, yet, but I agree with this completely.
I think we see one more offseason and season with him... with some serious re-tooling of that offensive scheme & philosophy to go along with more talent on D.

theres too much fire right now.. I don't think he's coming back..

There are few things riskier than doubling down on a risky play that didn't go well. Dorsey has risked and it didn't pan out, its time to do the smart thing and cut the losses.

Freddie is lost, you just have to listen the way media talks about him. The NFL didn't like his promotion and they are getting payback now.

On the other hand, Freddie has until now showed nothing positive... nothing that would make anyone believe he his the answer.

Team is bigger than any individual, keeping FK will only slow us.

That's about the last thing I'd take into account; especially the Cleveland media.

and yet, despite practicing one-handed grabs before every game, he still drops at least one every single game that hits him in both hands, or he doesn't get his hands up quick enough and it goes through them and hits him in the chest.

He has been really good this year, but he has NOT been great and it isn't anyone's fault or causation but his own.

j/c...

I'm absolutely stunned Mike Silver would make something up for clicks. Just stunned!

I think theres two weeks left in the season, with 0-little chance to make the playoffs, why do it know? Let him finish the year, and move on. Happens all the time.

the fact you don't realize that the giants last won in 2011, 3 years before Odell was drafted, pretty much sums up your knowledge of football.

I guess that means that Larry Fitzgerald sucks too and Calvin Johnson sucked when he played for Detroit. I mean if we're grading a WR on the record the team he plays for has.

where did you deduct that from anything I posted?

The dude said OBJ was a SB winning WR. He wasn't. Hes never played in a SB, or won one.

I was pointing THAT out. I never said he sucked. I simply pointed out that the dude is trying to be all over his jock - and didn't even know that hes never played in an SB.

He called him a "SB winning WR". . . ..

I never said OBJ sucked, or implied he did. Was pointing out that the next time the poster was trying to USE OBJ as a way to take a passive aggressive shot at Baker, he should get his facts right about that player.

Sorry. My bad.

No worried. I can see now where it could have been taken that way. text, stinks.

FYI, Odell is a very good WR, but for someone who "has the best hands in the NFL's history, I would think his catch percentage would probably be a little higher than it is. His best year was about 70%, which was his Rookie year.

In comparasion, his best year would put him at 18th on the best catch percentage THIS year in the league.

Great player, great at 1 handed catches. Best hands in NFL history, not even close.

Hell, he might not even have the best hands on this TEAM. I think Jarvis gives him a run for his money. He certainly has less drops.

Right now we are the 9th best team in the AFC … I wish we had secured a playoff spot but we still have a heartbeat. It's been a fun season for this fan regardless of who I will be watching wildcard weekend.

/ an anonymous steeler claiming OBJ said he wants to play for them is about as ridiculous as the new one about Landry
// "come get me" sounds more like trash talk "come get some"
/// Go Brownies

It does sound more like trash talk than anything else. But what would fans have be outraged about over that?

I think that you haven't heard it said, so to say it sounds one way or the other is disingenuous to be frank. Context is everything. We didn't hear it, or how it was said, so you are speculating.

I don't know if it was trash talk or if it was real, or if it was even said, so can you say it "sounds" more like trash talk?

I would think the sources who said they said it would know if they were saying it was trash talk to them opposed to real talk.

If you say "come get me" loud and flexing, that's trash talk.

If you say, "come get me" in a normal voice, at the end of a play, exasperated tone - that's not trash talk.

Context means everything. We don't know the context, to allude either way is wrong.

So who is it exactly you are depending on to tell you how they meant it?

Why let him finish the year if he lost the LR ... i don’t understand the logic ....

I’m not saying he hasn’t lost the LR ... i have no clue ... he may have ... i just don’t understand why if he’s lost the LR we’d keep him on ... makes no sense to me ...

Because at this point it makes 0 difference. If anything, punting Kitchens with 2 games left creates more drama and upheaval. Nobody on the staff is going to be retained (which coordinator has done enough to warrant the interim HC badge?). We are not going to make the playoffs either way, and unlike last year, we don't have enough time to turn things around via firing.