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There are a lot of blanket statements being thrown around as to Dorsey's successes - or lack thereof - in his short tenure in Cleveland. Here's a jumping-off point before revisionist history and agenda-posting gains a foothold: https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12...nd-blew-it.htmlNote: I could not get the content to copy for pasting.
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I'd have to say at this point, " Who cares".
Carry on...
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Even to a Sashi guy like me, that was a bit of a hatchet-job. (And I'm not overly fond of Dorsey).
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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The article lists drafting Callaway and Corbett as "worst moves". I think that reporting is a little lazy. I have no issue with drafting either guy - even at the pick used to do so. High draft picks will sometimes bust...it happens. I DO have issue with trading Zeitler with some ridiculous conclusion that Corbett could play RG. The follow-up, desperate attempts to band-aid the position (Kush/Teller) highlighted the terrible talent evaluation by the GM that allowed him to trade Zeitler with nothing to back that up. The Callaway gamble was worthwhile. He had 1st Rd talent and a UDFA head. A 4th is not a bad place to take such a gamble. My issue here is that somehow he was knighted the #3 WR immediately upon returning form suspension...while Higgins began his tenure in the DogHouse. I'm not a follower of the following logic...however...that move(s) stunk of JD wanting his guy to shine over a diamond-in-the-rough pick of the previous personnel folks. I believe there are other, more-egregious mistakes than the five listed in the link. Those are for another post.
Last edited by WSU Willie; 01/08/20 10:48 AM.
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I don't really have an issue with the seven moves noted in that article. If it weren't for the previous regime's moves, JD would not have had a pick to use on Chubb. Without that 2nd/2nd, his choice of Corbett over Chubb would have been devastating to the team and JD's cred. The author's #1 "best move" was drafting Baker...which is very inconvenient for those who dislike Baker yet liked JD. A bit of a conundrum...so to speak. Sticking with the article content for the moment.
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His worst moves:
- Hiring FK and trying to stick by him
- Not addressing OL
Baker’s development was severely hampered by both
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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His worst moves:
- Hiring FK and trying to stick by him
- Not addressing OL
Baker’s development was severely hampered by both In general, I think a lot of the complaints about Dorsey are really complaints about Kitchens. I can understand people wanting to put Freddie's failures on Dorsey because Dorsey did the hire (muscle-flexing and all), but I disagree. Freddie's failures are Freddie's failures. Dorsey's pick of Corbett and subsequently getting rid of Zeitler to make room for his pick is Dorsey's failure. It worked well when he made room for Chubb, but definitely did not with the RG position.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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The "worst moves" not mentioned in the article say nothing about the waiver/release/etc of viable, real, NFL players. JD's mouth got him off to a flying start when Jason McCourty took offense to JD's comment about "real football players". JD shortly thereafter traded McCourty to the Pats for a bag of pretzels. McCourty has been a starter on that team ever since. To fix the hole JD created, he signed TJ Carrie to a ridiculous contract that saw Carrie make approx $8 million this year - he will likley be a cap casualty for 2020. His other fix was to sign T Mitchell (fairly big contract but nothing like Carrie's). Mitchell played better than Carrie all year and was good in 2018 when not injured. He was "beat out" of the starter position by Greedy this season...yeah, right. JD did bolster the CBs by picking Ward...with a 2nd, 1st Rd pick secured by the previous regime. Note: JD would likely not have been able to afford the ridiculous Carrie contract - and the large Mitchell contract - without the cap space created by the previous regime. Sticking with position groups for now.
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In general, I think a lot of the complaints about Dorsey are really complaints about Kitchens. I can understand people wanting to put Freddie's failures on Dorsey because Dorsey did the hire (muscle-flexing and all), but I disagree. Freddie's failures are Freddie's failures. They would be of the thinking that Haslam has no fault in the bad coaching hires. Those are all on the coaches fault, not the person hiring them.. … You cant have it both ways. You cant say Freddie was not on Dorsey, but then blame the haslems for the same thing....
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Without getting into the weeds - the Cleveland Browns would be better off with Dorsey still with the organization than without him. Player performance and analysis of the team is very hard to do clearly/conclusively due to Freddie and due to injury.
The only exception to this is if Dorsey being here would prevent you from signing the HC. But at this time McDaniels might be the only candidate that would feel this way?
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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I don't know how that five worst moves left out JD's decisions on the DLine. He traded Danny Shelton (for a decent return) and replaced him with T Coley. C'mon Man! I think Shelton was/is over-rated on here and T Coley gave a good effort, but that move weakened an already-weak (and still weak) interior of the DL. There was no reason to make that move and simultaneously manage to weaken the position group. Shelton is a starter for the Pats. Nassib was a jerk to the jerk-coach(es) in Hard Knocks but could play...maybe just a backup for us...but he could play. He was cut. We got nothing out of that guy. He's a Team Captain in Tampa Bay now. (For those not keeping score...that is 333 guys so far who "weren't real football players" under the previous regime and who were jettisoned for darn-near zilch...zip...nada. Someone's ego is starting to emerge here. Ogbah was traded to the Chiefs for (S) Murray. I liked Ogbah and he was a good backup for the Chiefs until injured...I also like Murray and am willing to call that trade a wash. Both are free agents today. Ogbah and Nassib would have been great to have for 2019. Genard Avery went from being a promising and disruptive defender to being traded for a pick in 2021. Not 2020...2021. He's a JD pick. Chris Smith was kept when Avery was traded...then Smith was cut AFTER Avery was traded. WTH is/was going on here?! That's 4444 DE's who could play and maybe move inside on passing downs who were unceremoniously booted out...while practice squad guys filled the voids of Garrett and Vernon. The moves on the DLine were as baffling as FK's play-calling. There is absoluteley ZERO sense in what JD did here. Still sticking with position groups.
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Without getting into the weeds - the Cleveland Browns would be better off with Dorsey still with the organization than without him. Player performance and analysis of the team is very hard to do clearly/conclusively due to Freddie and due to injury.
The only exception to this is if Dorsey being here would prevent you from signing the HC. But at this time McDaniels might be the only candidate that would feel this way? That is a very fair assessment. I used to think that JD should have stuck (in spite of my posts in this thread) but that issue is now moot to me. As you stated about 'getting into the weeds', I won't wade into the should-have-kept-him weeds after the parties agreed to mutually go separate ways. FWIW: My point with this thread is to debunk this nationwide-NFL expert-"claim" that JD brought in "all this talent"...to put names to the moves he made...to do the work that the pundits couldn't see beyond the OBJ and Hunt acquisitions.
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That's fair enough.
I think JD did bring in talent - and probably did a better job with that than any other GM we have had since 1999. In some cases (trades) bringing in someone like Vernon who played very well when healthy, weakened another part of the team (OL) ... in that particular case the impact was a more dramatic drop off for the OL than gain for the DL. You have to look at the thing in total.
Last edited by mgh888; 01/08/20 11:44 AM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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TE's. I could almost end this post right there. TEs are a QBs best friend...especially young QBs. So what did JD do? Well...he dumped Fells who has like 666666 TD's for the Texans and will be in the playoffs this weekend. He can block AND catch...what a great idea. JD went out and signed 'his guy' from KC - D Harris. Who can neither block nor catch...nor keep his feet inbounds on an easy TD pass. JD picked up RSJ off the Cardinal scrap-heap (another TE who cannot block) and kept DeValve's doppleganger. My goodness. The Ravens have 333 TE's who are all MUCH better than any TE on our roster. The Eagles have at least 22. Most teams have at least 1 guy who can actually block & catch...we managed to roster NONE. WTH is/was the deal with Njoku? (and Randall and Higgins...what a mess). Watch L Jackson, D Watson, J Garrapolo et al this weekend and think about JD's prowess in bringing in talent at the TE spot. It makes me sick that we somehow managed to go backwards at this position group too.
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That's fair enough.
I think JD did bring in talent - and probably did a better job with that than any other GM we have had since 1999. In some cases (trades) bringing in someone like Vernon who played very well when healthy, weakened another part of the team (OL) ... in that particular case the impact was a more dramatic drop off for the OL than gain for the DL. You have to look at the thing in total. I agree with all except the part about being better than any GM since 1999...my jury is still out on that one. However, I don't think there is any debate that he had - by far - the best set-up of any GM since 1999...in draft capital and cap space...and probably authority as well. Ultimately time will tell. However, I am struggling to come up with many "good" moves that JD made...while the bad moves are painfully evident.
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TE's. I could almost end this post right there. TEs are a QBs best friend...especially young QBs. So what did JD do? Well...he dumped Fells who has like 666666 TD's for the Texans and will be in the playoffs this weekend. He can block AND catch...what a great idea. JD went out and signed 'his guy' from KC - D Harris. Who can neither block nor catch...nor keep his feet inbounds on an easy TD pass. JD picked up RSJ off the Cardinal scrap-heap (another TE who cannot block) and kept DeValve's doppleganger. My goodness. The Ravens have 333 TE's who are all MUCH better than any TE on our roster. The Eagles have at least 22. Most teams have at least 1 guy who can actually block & catch...we managed to roster NONE. WTH is/was the deal with Njoku? (and Randall and Higgins...what a mess). Watch L Jackson, D Watson, J Garrapolo et al this weekend and think about JD's prowess in bringing in talent at the TE spot. It makes me sick that we somehow managed to go backwards at this position group too. I was all on the KJ hype train. I also don't want to go 'into the weeds' as I did that at the end of last week and don't think it was time well spent. Your criticism of the state of the TE position is spot on, even to a Dorsey fan. Even though, imo, the effect was less than his ignoring/depleting the Oline, the moves were more egregiously bad and counter to what we needed. We needed at least 2 strong blockers that can reliably catch short passes, and we got rid of everyone that did just that. Instead we have one guy that's good at nothing, and a couple fast guys that can't block. Yuck
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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I don't know how that five worst moves left out JD's decisions on the DLine. He traded Danny Shelton (for a decent return) and replaced him with T Coley. C'mon Man! I think Shelton was/is over-rated on here and T Coley gave a good effort, but that move weakened an already-weak (and still weak) interior of the DL. There was no reason to make that move and simultaneously manage to weaken the position group. Shelton is a starter for the Pats. Nassib was a jerk to the jerk-coach(es) in Hard Knocks but could play...maybe just a backup for us...but he could play. He was cut. We got nothing out of that guy. He's a Team Captain in Tampa Bay now. (For those not keeping score...that is 333 guys so far who "weren't real football players" under the previous regime and who were jettisoned for darn-near zilch...zip...nada. Someone's ego is starting to emerge here. Ogbah was traded to the Chiefs for (S) Murray. I liked Ogbah and he was a good backup for the Chiefs until injured...I also like Murray and am willing to call that trade a wash. Both are free agents today. Ogbah and Nassib would have been great to have for 2019. Genard Avery went from being a promising and disruptive defender to being traded for a pick in 2021. Not 2020...2021. He's a JD pick. Chris Smith was kept when Avery was traded...then Smith was cut AFTER Avery was traded. WTH is/was going on here?! That's 4444 DE's who could play and maybe move inside on passing downs who were unceremoniously booted out...while practice squad guys filled the voids of Garrett and Vernon. The moves on the DLine were as baffling as FK's play-calling. There is absoluteley ZERO sense in what JD did here. Still sticking with position groups. I should have mentioned S Richardson here. I think that turned out to be a very good pickup. Here again...the cap space provided by the previous regime allowed for such a FA signing without much concern over the cap.
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TE's. I could almost end this post right there. TEs are a QBs best friend...especially young QBs. So what did JD do? Well...he dumped Fells who has like 666666 TD's for the Texans and will be in the playoffs this weekend. He can block AND catch...what a great idea. JD went out and signed 'his guy' from KC - D Harris. Who can neither block nor catch...nor keep his feet inbounds on an easy TD pass. JD picked up RSJ off the Cardinal scrap-heap (another TE who cannot block) and kept DeValve's doppleganger. My goodness. The Ravens have 333 TE's who are all MUCH better than any TE on our roster. The Eagles have at least 22. Most teams have at least 1 guy who can actually block & catch...we managed to roster NONE. WTH is/was the deal with Njoku? (and Randall and Higgins...what a mess). Watch L Jackson, D Watson, J Garrapolo et al this weekend and think about JD's prowess in bringing in talent at the TE spot. It makes me sick that we somehow managed to go backwards at this position group too. I was all on the KJ hype train. I also don't want to go 'into the weeds' as I did that at the end of last week and don't think it was time well spent. Your criticism of the state of the TE position is spot on, even to a Dorsey fan. Even though, imo, the effect was less than his ignoring/depleting the Oline, the moves were more egregiously bad and counter to what we needed. We needed at least 2 strong blockers that can reliably catch short passes, and we got rid of everyone that did just that. Instead we have one guy that's good at nothing, and a couple fast guys that can't block. Yuck Yep. I haven't gotten around to the OL yet...but...as you mentioned...JD's moves on the OL - or lack thereof - may be more egregious than those at TE. A bad OL coupled with a bad TE group for a sophomore QB...what could possibly go wrong? \sarcasm
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j/c
When you post a slanted article and call that the "jumping off point", it's like calling the gallows a smart place to jump from. Not worthy of my time. Even a Sashi lover called it a hatchet job.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Even to a Sashi guy like me, that was a bit of a hatchet-job. (And I'm not overly fond of Dorsey). And there we have it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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TE's. I could almost end this post right there. TEs are a QBs best friend...especially young QBs. So what did JD do? Well...he dumped Fells who has like 666666 TD's for the Texans and will be in the playoffs this weekend. He can block AND catch...what a great idea. JD went out and signed 'his guy' from KC - D Harris. Who can neither block nor catch...nor keep his feet inbounds on an easy TD pass. JD picked up RSJ off the Cardinal scrap-heap (another TE who cannot block) and kept DeValve's doppleganger. My goodness. The Ravens have 333 TE's who are all MUCH better than any TE on our roster. The Eagles have at least 22. Most teams have at least 1 guy who can actually block & catch...we managed to roster NONE. WTH is/was the deal with Njoku? (and Randall and Higgins...what a mess). Watch L Jackson, D Watson, J Garrapolo et al this weekend and think about JD's prowess in bringing in talent at the TE spot. It makes me sick that we somehow managed to go backwards at this position group too. I was all on the KJ hype train. I also don't want to go 'into the weeds' as I did that at the end of last week and don't think it was time well spent. Your criticism of the state of the TE position is spot on, even to a Dorsey fan. Even though, imo, the effect was less than his ignoring/depleting the Oline, the moves were more egregiously bad and counter to what we needed. We needed at least 2 strong blockers that can reliably catch short passes, and we got rid of everyone that did just that. Instead we have one guy that's good at nothing, and a couple fast guys that can't block. Yuck Yep. I haven't gotten around to the OL yet...but...as you mentioned...JD's moves on the OL - or lack thereof - may be more egregious than those at TE. A bad OL coupled with a bad TE group for a sophomore QB...what could possibly go wrong? \sarcasm No big deal, but that's not what I said. Dorsey's mistake on the OL was getting rid of a top RG because he thought his pick was good to go. That was a big mistake (2 mistakes in 1, actually). Many GMs make those mistakes, but probably not together like Dorsey did. Still, that was an isolated thing that ended up having a big effect on the Oline, coupled with not investing in tackles (which, imo, is not that big of a mistake seeing as how those 2 were humming along at the end of the previous season). The TE personnel decisions were more egregious when you consider what we needed to run the offense that had shown success. We clearly needed this, and we did everything we could to stack our roster for the opposite.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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It seems simplistic but John Dorsey's success as our GM will be determined by Baker Mayfield. If he turns into a franchise QB then Dorsey deserves heaps of praise. If he is a bust then Dorsey was going to be fired anyway.
We can nitpick some of the smaller moves but GMs hit and miss all the time.
In the end Dorsey's actual undoing was his lack of ability in working with others. This should not be a surprise to us as it was the reason he was fired in Kansas City.
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One guy's thoughts on Dorsey's moves (he apparently doesn't respect Scott Petrak either!)...
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I don't think Dorsey did a bad job, could he have done better? most definitely.
I like the Kizer/Randall trade and the Landry trade but I didn't like the OBJ and the Vernon trades.
I didn't like the Kitchens hiring, I wanted Arians.
His drafts, I liked some of his picks but others left me scratching my head. I liked the Chubb pick and the Avery pick from his first draft and I was ok with the Mayfield and Ward picks but I preferred Darnold and Bradley Chubb and I didn't care for the Callaway and Chad Thomas picks. His second draft, I liked the Greedy pick but I didn't care for the Takitaki and Redwine picks.
Overall I would give him C- grade....because he failed at his biggest task of getting us the right HC in hiring Kitchens.
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I agree with alot of what they person is trying to convey although a little over the top, however, calling late round picks (6th and 7th rounders) like Lewis and Simeon "BUSTS" isn't really all that accurate to me. Guys taken that late rarely ever make an impact in the NFL. It's the ones that stick around, even not as starters but as long-term role players, is really what is more important to me regarding a GM's ability to consistently find talent throughout a draft. If they become starters with longevity, even better.
Tackles are tackles.
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I agree with alot of what they person is trying to convey although a little over the top, however, calling late round picks (6th and 7th rounders) like Lewis and Simeon "BUSTS" isn't really all that accurate to me. Guys taken that late rarely ever make an impact in the NFL. It's the ones that stick around, even not as starters even as long-term role players, is really what is more important to me regarding a GM's ability to consistently find talent throughout a draft. If they become starters with longevity, even better.
Agree. Labeling those late round picks really shouldn't be called busts.
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One guy's thoughts on Dorsey's moves (he apparently doesn't respect Scott Petrak either!)...
He uses PFF grades to criticize players - but when a player like Vernon had a very high PFF grade (above 80) he changes criteria. Not a very balanced review although it does highlight some misses/issues.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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This Stalnaker guy should tell us how he really feels.
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It's like a lot of other things I've been reading on here lately. He kind of has a point; it's also kind of over the top.
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My problems with Dorsey were ..
1.) The Kitchens hire. There was no way in Hell that Freddie was ready. If Freddie wanted to be Head Coach, be Head Coach, not Head Coach and offensive coordinator. He had a coordinator who was hired because of his passing game. Use him.
2.) After seeing that Freddie was messing up badly calling plays. After seeing that there were offensive problems, beyond personnel. Why wasn't Freddie called into the office and told, "Let Monken call plays. Monken is the offensive coordinator, let him do his job." It is JUST MY OPINION, but I feel that IF Dorsey had made that effort, if he had shown a willingness to fix the obvious problem of offensive play calls, he would still be the General Manager today.
Last edited by Halfback32; 01/08/20 02:16 PM.
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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Wilks calling the offense is a radical idea. You're an outside the box thinker! 
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Wilks calling the offense is a radical idea. You're an outside the box thinker! Laughs .. I know .. I corrected it .. chuckles .. but then who knows, maybe Wilks did call plays in AZ ... 
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,487 Likes: 1281
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,487 Likes: 1281 |
Wilks calling the offense is a radical idea. You're an outside the box thinker! Laughs .. I know .. I corrected it .. chuckles .. but then who knows, maybe Wilks did call plays in AZ ... 
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
I agree with alot of what they person is trying to convey although a little over the top, however, calling late round picks (6th and 7th rounders) like Lewis and Simeon "BUSTS" isn't really all that accurate to me. Guys taken that late rarely ever make an impact in the NFL. It's the ones that stick around, even not as starters even as long-term role players, is really what is more important to me regarding a GM's ability to consistently find talent throughout a draft. If they become starters with longevity, even better.
Agree. Labeling those late round picks really shouldn't be called busts. I am at the point where it's hard to say any player drafted by any team is a bust. There is so much that goes into drafting a player and then you hand him to a coaching staff that may or may not know what they are doing. On top of that every team misses on basically half of their picks every year. How can you blame anyone for flipping a coin and it landing on heads instead of tails?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,089 Likes: 293
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,089 Likes: 293 |
Why wasn't Freddie called into the office and told, "Let Monken call plays. Monken is the offensive coordinator, let him do his job." It is JUST MY OPINION, but I feel that IF Dorsey had made that effort, if he had shown a willingness to fix the obvious problem of offensive play calls, I have often wondered if JD did call him in the office and tell him to let Monken call plays... Obviously we all heard Freddie say.." I'm calling the plays " Not sure if he could tell Dorsey no to that..But there is a possibility Dorsey may have approached him. I know you corrected it.. But Wilks calling the Offensive plays...That would totally explain why opposing Defenses knew what they were going to run on O before they did...
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
2.) After seeing that Freddie was messing up badly calling plays. After seeing that there were offensive problems, beyond personnel. Why wasn't Freddie called into the office and told, "Let Monken call plays. Monken is the offensive coordinator, let him do his job." It is JUST MY OPINION, but I feel that IF Dorsey had made that effort, if he had shown a willingness to fix the obvious problem of offensive play calls, he would still be the General Manager today. John Dorsey looks like a lot less of a genius if the guy he hired because of his play calling has to give up play calling midway through the season. And that is the problem with John Dorsey. 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 67,549 Likes: 1328
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 67,549 Likes: 1328 |
We get a lot of that on here. Speculation projected as fact.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Evaluating John Dorsey as CLE GM
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