There are a lot of blanket statements being thrown around as to Dorsey's successes - or lack thereof - in his short tenure in Cleveland. Here's a jumping-off point before revisionist history and agenda-posting gains a foothold:

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12...nd-blew-it.html

Note: I could not get the content to copy for pasting.

JD's seven best moves per the article:

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12/ranking-john-dorseys-7-best-moves-as-browns-gm.html

JD's five worst moves per the article:

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12/ranking-john-dorseys-5-worst-moves-as-browns-gm.html

I'd have to say at this point, " Who cares".

Carry on...

Even to a Sashi guy like me, that was a bit of a hatchet-job. (And I'm not overly fond of Dorsey).

The article lists drafting Callaway and Corbett as "worst moves". I think that reporting is a little lazy. I have no issue with drafting either guy - even at the pick used to do so. High draft picks will sometimes bust...it happens.

I DO have issue with trading Zeitler with some ridiculous conclusion that Corbett could play RG. The follow-up, desperate attempts to band-aid the position (Kush/Teller) highlighted the terrible talent evaluation by the GM that allowed him to trade Zeitler with nothing to back that up.

The Callaway gamble was worthwhile. He had 1st Rd talent and a UDFA head. A 4th is not a bad place to take such a gamble. My issue here is that somehow he was knighted the #3 WR immediately upon returning form suspension...while Higgins began his tenure in the DogHouse. I'm not a follower of the following logic...however...that move(s) stunk of JD wanting his guy to shine over a diamond-in-the-rough pick of the previous personnel folks.

I believe there are other, more-egregious mistakes than the five listed in the link. Those are for another post.

I don't really have an issue with the seven moves noted in that article. If it weren't for the previous regime's moves, JD would not have had a pick to use on Chubb. Without that 2nd/2nd, his choice of Corbett over Chubb would have been devastating to the team and JD's cred.

The author's #1 "best move" was drafting Baker...which is very inconvenient for those who dislike Baker yet liked JD. A bit of a conundrum...so to speak.

Sticking with the article content for the moment.

His worst moves:

- Hiring FK and trying to stick by him
- Not addressing OL

Baker’s development was severely hampered by both

In general, I think a lot of the complaints about Dorsey are really complaints about Kitchens. I can understand people wanting to put Freddie's failures on Dorsey because Dorsey did the hire (muscle-flexing and all), but I disagree. Freddie's failures are Freddie's failures.
Dorsey's pick of Corbett and subsequently getting rid of Zeitler to make room for his pick is Dorsey's failure. It worked well when he made room for Chubb, but definitely did not with the RG position.

The "worst moves" not mentioned in the article say nothing about the waiver/release/etc of viable, real, NFL players.

JD's mouth got him off to a flying start when Jason McCourty took offense to JD's comment about "real football players". JD shortly thereafter traded McCourty to the Pats for a bag of pretzels. McCourty has been a starter on that team ever since.

To fix the hole JD created, he signed TJ Carrie to a ridiculous contract that saw Carrie make approx $8 million this year - he will likley be a cap casualty for 2020. His other fix was to sign T Mitchell (fairly big contract but nothing like Carrie's). Mitchell played better than Carrie all year and was good in 2018 when not injured. He was "beat out" of the starter position by Greedy this season...yeah, right.

JD did bolster the CBs by picking Ward...with a 2nd, 1st Rd pick secured by the previous regime.

Note: JD would likely not have been able to afford the ridiculous Carrie contract - and the large Mitchell contract - without the cap space created by the previous regime.

Sticking with position groups for now.

They would be of the thinking that Haslam has no fault in the bad coaching hires. Those are all on the coaches fault, not the person hiring them.. …

You cant have it both ways. You cant say Freddie was not on Dorsey, but then blame the haslems for the same thing....

Without getting into the weeds - the Cleveland Browns would be better off with Dorsey still with the organization than without him. Player performance and analysis of the team is very hard to do clearly/conclusively due to Freddie and due to injury.

The only exception to this is if Dorsey being here would prevent you from signing the HC. But at this time McDaniels might be the only candidate that would feel this way?

I don't know how that five worst moves left out JD's decisions on the DLine. He traded Danny Shelton (for a decent return) and replaced him with T Coley. C'mon Man! I think Shelton was/is over-rated on here and T Coley gave a good effort, but that move weakened an already-weak (and still weak) interior of the DL. There was no reason to make that move and simultaneously manage to weaken the position group. Shelton is a starter for the Pats.

Nassib was a jerk to the jerk-coach(es) in Hard Knocks but could play...maybe just a backup for us...but he could play. He was cut. We got nothing out of that guy. He's a Team Captain in Tampa Bay now. (For those not keeping score...that is 333 guys so far who "weren't real football players" under the previous regime and who were jettisoned for darn-near zilch...zip...nada. Someone's ego is starting to emerge here.

Ogbah was traded to the Chiefs for (S) Murray. I liked Ogbah and he was a good backup for the Chiefs until injured...I also like Murray and am willing to call that trade a wash. Both are free agents today. Ogbah and Nassib would have been great to have for 2019.

Genard Avery went from being a promising and disruptive defender to being traded for a pick in 2021. Not 2020...2021. He's a JD pick. Chris Smith was kept when Avery was traded...then Smith was cut AFTER Avery was traded. WTH is/was going on here?! That's 4444 DE's who could play and maybe move inside on passing downs who were unceremoniously booted out...while practice squad guys filled the voids of Garrett and Vernon. The moves on the DLine were as baffling as FK's play-calling. There is absoluteley ZERO sense in what JD did here.

Still sticking with position groups.

That is a very fair assessment. I used to think that JD should have stuck (in spite of my posts in this thread) but that issue is now moot to me. As you stated about 'getting into the weeds', I won't wade into the should-have-kept-him weeds after the parties agreed to mutually go separate ways.

FWIW: My point with this thread is to debunk this nationwide-NFL expert-"claim" that JD brought in "all this talent"...to put names to the moves he made...to do the work that the pundits couldn't see beyond the OBJ and Hunt acquisitions.

That's fair enough.

I think JD did bring in talent - and probably did a better job with that than any other GM we have had since 1999. In some cases (trades) bringing in someone like Vernon who played very well when healthy, weakened another part of the team (OL) ... in that particular case the impact was a more dramatic drop off for the OL than gain for the DL. You have to look at the thing in total.

TE's. I could almost end this post right there.

TEs are a QBs best friend...especially young QBs. So what did JD do? Well...he dumped Fells who has like 666666 TD's for the Texans and will be in the playoffs this weekend. He can block AND catch...what a great idea.

JD went out and signed 'his guy' from KC - D Harris. Who can neither block nor catch...nor keep his feet inbounds on an easy TD pass. JD picked up RSJ off the Cardinal scrap-heap (another TE who cannot block) and kept DeValve's doppleganger. My goodness. The Ravens have 333 TE's who are all MUCH better than any TE on our roster. The Eagles have at least 22. Most teams have at least 1 guy who can actually block & catch...we managed to roster NONE.

WTH is/was the deal with Njoku? (and Randall and Higgins...what a mess).

Watch L Jackson, D Watson, J Garrapolo et al this weekend and think about JD's prowess in bringing in talent at the TE spot. It makes me sick that we somehow managed to go backwards at this position group too.

I agree with all except the part about being better than any GM since 1999...my jury is still out on that one. However, I don't think there is any debate that he had - by far - the best set-up of any GM since 1999...in draft capital and cap space...and probably authority as well.

Ultimately time will tell. However, I am struggling to come up with many "good" moves that JD made...while the bad moves are painfully evident.

I was all on the KJ hype train. I also don't want to go 'into the weeds' as I did that at the end of last week and don't think it was time well spent.

Your criticism of the state of the TE position is spot on, even to a Dorsey fan. Even though, imo, the effect was less than his ignoring/depleting the Oline, the moves were more egregiously bad and counter to what we needed. We needed at least 2 strong blockers that can reliably catch short passes, and we got rid of everyone that did just that. Instead we have one guy that's good at nothing, and a couple fast guys that can't block. Yuck

I should have mentioned S Richardson here. I think that turned out to be a very good pickup. Here again...the cap space provided by the previous regime allowed for such a FA signing without much concern over the cap.

Yep. I haven't gotten around to the OL yet...but...as you mentioned...JD's moves on the OL - or lack thereof - may be more egregious than those at TE.

A bad OL coupled with a bad TE group for a sophomore QB...what could possibly go wrong? \sarcasm

j/c

When you post a slanted article and call that the "jumping off point", it's like calling the gallows a smart place to jump from. Not worthy of my time. Even a Sashi lover called it a hatchet job.

And there we have it.

No big deal, but that's not what I said.

Dorsey's mistake on the OL was getting rid of a top RG because he thought his pick was good to go. That was a big mistake (2 mistakes in 1, actually). Many GMs make those mistakes, but probably not together like Dorsey did. Still, that was an isolated thing that ended up having a big effect on the Oline, coupled with not investing in tackles (which, imo, is not that big of a mistake seeing as how those 2 were humming along at the end of the previous season).

The TE personnel decisions were more egregious when you consider what we needed to run the offense that had shown success. We clearly needed this, and we did everything we could to stack our roster for the opposite.

It seems simplistic but John Dorsey's success as our GM will be determined by Baker Mayfield. If he turns into a franchise QB then Dorsey deserves heaps of praise. If he is a bust then Dorsey was going to be fired anyway.

We can nitpick some of the smaller moves but GMs hit and miss all the time.

In the end Dorsey's actual undoing was his lack of ability in working with others. This should not be a surprise to us as it was the reason he was fired in Kansas City.

One guy's thoughts on Dorsey's moves (he apparently doesn't respect Scott Petrak either!)...

I don't think Dorsey did a bad job, could he have done better? most definitely.

I like the Kizer/Randall trade and the Landry trade but I didn't like the OBJ and the Vernon trades.

I didn't like the Kitchens hiring, I wanted Arians.

His drafts, I liked some of his picks but others left me scratching my head. I liked the Chubb pick and the Avery pick from his first draft and I was ok with the Mayfield and Ward picks but I preferred Darnold and Bradley Chubb and I didn't care for the Callaway and Chad Thomas picks. His second draft, I liked the Greedy pick but I didn't care for the Takitaki and Redwine picks.

Overall I would give him C- grade....because he failed at his biggest task of getting us the right HC in hiring Kitchens.

I agree with alot of what they person is trying to convey although a little over the top, however, calling late round picks (6th and 7th rounders) like Lewis and Simeon "BUSTS" isn't really all that accurate to me. Guys taken that late rarely ever make an impact in the NFL. It's the ones that stick around, even not as starters but as long-term role players, is really what is more important to me regarding a GM's ability to consistently find talent throughout a draft. If they become starters with longevity, even better.

Agree. Labeling those late round picks really shouldn't be called busts.

He uses PFF grades to criticize players - but when a player like Vernon had a very high PFF grade (above 80) he changes criteria. Not a very balanced review although it does highlight some misses/issues.

This Stalnaker guy should tell us how he really feels.

He's upset!

It's like a lot of other things I've been reading on here lately. He kind of has a point; it's also kind of over the top.

My problems with Dorsey were ..

1.) The Kitchens hire. There was no way in Hell that Freddie was ready. If Freddie wanted to be Head Coach, be Head Coach, not Head Coach and offensive coordinator. He had a coordinator who was hired because of his passing game. Use him.

2.) After seeing that Freddie was messing up badly calling plays. After seeing that there were offensive problems, beyond personnel. Why wasn't Freddie called into the office and told, "Let Monken call plays. Monken is the offensive coordinator, let him do his job." It is JUST MY OPINION, but I feel that IF Dorsey had made that effort, if he had shown a willingness to fix the obvious problem of offensive play calls, he would still be the General Manager today.

Wilks calling the offense is a radical idea. You're an outside the box thinker!

Laughs .. I know .. I corrected it .. chuckles .. but then who knows, maybe Wilks did call plays in AZ ...

I am at the point where it's hard to say any player drafted by any team is a bust. There is so much that goes into drafting a player and then you hand him to a coaching staff that may or may not know what they are doing. On top of that every team misses on basically half of their picks every year. How can you blame anyone for flipping a coin and it landing on heads instead of tails?

I have often wondered if JD did call him in the office and tell him to let Monken call plays... Obviously we all heard Freddie say.." I'm calling the plays "

Not sure if he could tell Dorsey no to that..But there is a possibility Dorsey may have approached him.

I know you corrected it.. But Wilks calling the Offensive plays...That would totally explain why opposing Defenses knew what they were going to run on O before they did...

John Dorsey looks like a lot less of a genius if the guy he hired because of his play calling has to give up play calling midway through the season. And that is the problem with John Dorsey.

We get a lot of that on here. Speculation projected as fact.

Not to mention claims of excellent player-talent acquisition with not ONE player actually named. Odd.

It's called "The Full Dorse".

Just every expert in the NFL that agrees.

Hilarious...and so typical. Do you think those guys understand - or even know about - the actual transactions posted in this thread?

Who are those experts? What commentary did they provide? Better yet...what do YOU think about the transactions detailed in this thread?

j/c

I'm going to jump off with the opinion (conclusion) that Dorsey was more successful with the roster than he failed because heading in to Week 1 the general consensus was that this roster was stacked. There were some concerns about the O line and honestly our safeties didn't do it for me, but there was also the belief that Freddie was going to be creative enough on offense to mitigate our weaknesses.

I also think its fair to say Dorsey is catching most of his flack for Freddie. But shouldn't he? I don't think anyone is really denying that, the question is how much does he deserve and should he have been fired or pushed out over it. I don't think the organization thought he did. They offered him the opportunity to stay. (edit: I will allow the possibility that the organization made an offer no one in their right mind would accept).

Whatever you want to attribute to it, this past season was a disaster. I view it as a wasted season. I understand the hesitation to let Dorsey make another HC pick. I also understand the hit to his judgement if he were to advocate for a second season of Freddie.

So what are you to do with a guy like that?

For now I'm going to sit on the possibility I mentioned in another thread: just like some awesome OC and DC's aren't cut out to be HC's, maybe Dorsey's ceiling is player talent evaluation and management is just not in the cards for him.

I'm all for accountability. Even extreme accountability. Dorsey should feel responsibility for playcalling, because he was the one that hired Freddie. But the reality is that Freddie's brain is where those curious offensive decisions came from. Yes, Dorsey was the one that made it so those brainwaves directly resulted in terrible playcalling and scheme. But it's still a big jump to then say that Dorsey should be fired because of coaching decisions.

Your BS has gotten old. Every person on this board knows thet experts all across the country feel Dorsey did a great job of bringing talent to our roster. Even you know it.

Now go play your babies diaper role with someone else. You know, always on your azz and usually full of..... I'll stop there. Hey, if you really want to argue the point, go to every expert that said Dorsey brought all this talent here. I'm sure they are up for a good joke.

The O line...the ultimate fail. There is a trifecta of fails in this unit. We have a draft pick bust at #33 overall. We have a talent evaluation that suggested that that 33rd pick could play LT in the NFL...then Center...then G. Nope...then dumped for a 5th. I'll call that fail (1) when it actually represents (2) separate fails.

The Zeitler trade weakened the interior of the O Line for our 6', sophomore QB who was coached by our rookie-at-everything Head Coach. We never found a guy better than a journeyman-type to fill the shoes of the All-Pro he traded. Fail (2).

Standing pat with two below-average Ts was epic. Did he think Hubbard would help the RG? Because he sure missed the impact that losing Zetler would have on the already-bad RT play. Fail (3).

It's one thing to miss on a draft pick...it's another thing to completely blow the talent evaluation of the 33rd pick - when the GM is supposedly this great talent-evaluator - but weakening the line takes the cake.

JD did bring in a few decent backups...so there's that.

Maybe he over estimated what Freddie was going to bring to the table? I mean, for his lack of experience I'd have to imagine Dorsey had to lobby pretty hard to get Jimmy to sign off on him. Add to that the belief that Freddie was part of an up and coming crop of innovative coaches... I could totally see Dorsey thinking the O line was a weakness that Freddie could mitigate.

I don't care what they thought...I do this crazy thing called 'thinking for myself'. I even go so far as to detail-out my thoughts. You should try it sometime.

Your complete lack of any real rebuttal coupled by your standard go-to of insults is very telling.

Overall, JD did a poor job here. You have put forth nothing that rebuts that opinion.

With all of the people on here that are in support of Dorsey, the way you single me out makes your agenda way too obvious. Think it out better next time.

I see where "thinking for yourself" has gotten you.

j/c...

Stalnaker is pretty miffed about the TE situation, too!...

What else could there possibly be? How about free agent contracts. Take a look at these gems - salaries for 2020:

Chris Hubbard - $7,300,000
Olivier Vernon - $15,500,000
Sheldon Richardson - $13,666,666
Adarious Taylor (aka Who?) - $2,950,000
TJ Carrie - $8,150,000
T Mitchell - $3,666,668
Morgan Burnett - $4,746,875

Not a free agent...but yikes:

OBJ - $14,250,000

So...the NY Giants transactions got us OBJ & Vernon for 2020...at a total tab of...$29,750,000...and no affordable contract for the lost 2019 1st Rd pick.

Ouch...I wonder if the national media talking heads ever looked at that?

Still reaching at taking digs I see.

You have insults...I have names and examples...and now $$$. I respond to you because you throw out these statements - with absolutely zero support - as if they are gospel. I do that to people in 'real life' too.

What's your opinion on the moves? Not a statement of someone else's opinion...your opinion?

I'm going to go put on my 'Pit Started it' T-Shirt...I simply Myles Garrett'ed you.

Living in your head for free would be a nice benefit if the neighborhood wasn't so crappy.

And still, even the vast majority of our own posters ALONG with the national media disagrees with you.

But keep responding to me and taking digs. I'll keep getting on your nerves. It's easy to do and sort of fun at this point.

Now you're going to dedicate a T-shirt to me? Aweee, how sweet of you!

Calling the media "experts" does more harm than good for any argument.

I feel like the image wouldn't be one person smacking the other over the head with a helmet... based on your names I'd venture it would like someone sticking a wet finger in the ear of an annoyed pit bull.

At least that's how I'd draw it up and sell it...

Yes, former NFL HC's, GM's and players are far less experts than a hand full of "wish we had some cred" posters on a message board.

I was wondering how long you could resist jumping into this.



You held out longer than I thought you would actually. Kudos!

As long as it would picture the Pit Bull taking a bite out of your ass when you stuck your wet finger in its ear you may not be too far off.

That's your comparison, not mine.

Simply using "media as experts" because you cannot form a legitimate opinion on your own, is mine.

I have plainly stated earlier they were former NFL coaches, GM's and players. Everyone of course already knows this that have been paying attention. You want to blow that off while you guys try to quote some Twitter hacks on here.

Yeah, you guys think you are better than people who ran NFL teams, coached NFL teams and actually played the game. You play them off as "media". Some egos are too large for NFL stadiums. Maybe that's the reason no NFL team has hired you yet.

Get that under control and maybe you'll have a future in the game.

I'd suggest not make up arguments that no one is making.

I whole heartedly disagree that Vernon played well when he was healthy. In fact, he only had one good game, and that was the game he got hurt IIRC.

He was very lackluster until then, and after.

I'll play Devil's Advocate with you. Like many things, there was some good and bad with Dorsey. I did not want to see him fired but also wasn't sad to see him go.

If Dorsey did such a great job, why was he not able to put a winning team on the field? The Browns had one of the highest cap figures in the league this year (they would have been over the cap without benefiting from cap space being rolled over from previous years), yet finished with a worse record than last year. In the last 3 games they got destroyed by Arizona and Baltimore, and then lost to the previously 1-14 Bengals.

Many of his moves were lateral moves at best. You can't say he didn't have the resources because he was left with a huge bounty of draft picks and cap space. There were good players on the team from the previous regime. Many are still productive players in the league today.

If you blame the QB.. Dorsey had the #1 overall pick in a deep QB class.

If you blame the coach.. Dorsey overruled everybody else in the building, throwing his weight around to get Freddie Kitchens instead of Kevin Stefanski.

If you blame the owner.. Haslam did what most of us wanted to do, he hired the football guy (Dorsey) and gave him the keys to the franchise.

If you blame him not having enough time.. that is actually a fair point. I wish picking a coach wasn't such a sticking point for Dorsey. He clearly muffed that last time and could have rebuilt his reputation while continuing to build the team.

I'd note that he's also on record for brining Hue back for that third season (??), though I still believe that was mainly Haslam and any GM that was to get the job had to go along with it, stated or otherwise.

I guess it depends on what you define as a "team".

The general consensus going in to the season and through out the season was that there was enough talent on the team (as defined as the roster) to have won more games.

So in that sense I think he did build one.

Do you mean team in the sense of when Freddie talked about the group becoming a "team"? If so, isn't that more in the purview of the coaches job? One would hope the GM wouldn't build a roster of incompatible personalities, but I'd think the team dynamic is largely the responsibility of the HC.

And in that sense I don't think it was his job to.

Sorry, but you get that big toothy,goofy pitty smile. I'll have no part in reinforcing negative dog breed stereotypes

Not that I want it to happen, but I do wonder sometimes how Hue would do with this roster if he was just coming here for the first time?

Don't you dare go down that road!

I think the team dynamic is considerably more complex and is largely affected by the players themselves. You want players who are smart, coachable, "over themselves", and prepared/professional enough to learn the playbook, study film, etc. We are lacking in this category, and a big part of it was Dorsey prioritizing physical talent above all else.

Freddie was unprepared too. I just don't think you can put it all on him. Like the idea that Dorsey got him the players, so his hands are washed of the situation, is just not how I'd look at it. There's more interplay there.

Why did John Dorsey get fired in Kansas City (after drafting Patrick Mahomes)?

What do you call it when your own desires are greater than those of the team as a whole?

NFL experts on TV say John Dorsey has a huge ego.

edit: not even going down that road, lol

Just out of curiosity, are we talking Hue Jackson season #1 or Hue Jackson season #4?

I'm wondering if 2020 or even 2019 would have been Hue season #1.

I agree with your characteristics, but I'm not so sure I agree with the highlighted part.

I think Dorsey is not above taking risks and flyers on players with character "issues". OBJ, Callaway, Hunt....

OBJ is OBJ. I wasn't thrilled with some of the shoe stuff, and would have preferred he was at the voluntary off season stuff, but when it came to the behavior problems on field, I don't think he was even close to the biggest one.

Hunt, once given the opportunity to hit the field, had a fantastic outlook and work ethic.

Callaway... Callaway I think was mentally weak in the mold of Josh Gordon, BUT I also think that Callaway responded to discipline and structure much more than Gordon ever did. I don't think it's coincidence that after more than a year he finally pops on a test while being part of a team as undisciplined as ours was.

Past that? Do you have an example or two in mind of talent over all else?

Overall, John gets a solid C+.


Sorry the Freddie hire knocks him down a full grade.

John has a top eye for talent and is a good wheeler dealer, but he is poor at selecting a head coach and apparently sort of a ass to work with.


He could still be here if his pride didn't get in the way.


No way the Haslams could give him unfettered call over the next head coach. That was total disaster.

The draft(s)...our Super Bowl for the last 20 years. Let's take a look.

2018

Rd 1 - Baker and Ward
No complaints here. Both guys "looked" better in '18 than '19. Solid choices...even in hindsight. Interesting that BOTH guys got worse coaching in year 2 and the schemes deployed didn't fit their skillsets all that well.

Rd 2 - Corbett and Chubb
One reach who bombed and one could-have-been-considered reach who is in the top echelon at his position. The Corbett eval at draft day and thereafter was poor. The drafting of Chubb was a great move and brought tremendous value. My only issue is that he chose Corbett before Chubb.

Rd 3 - C Thomas
Who? I recollect this being a 'bone' thrown to Highsmith and he's all about The U. He was mia in '18 and contributed in '19. But for the 3rd pick in the 3rd Rd he was/is disappointing.

Rd 4 - Callaway
High reward...medium risk. No issue here.

Rd 5 - Avery
Looked like a diamond-in-the-rough in '18. Stuck between a DE and LB...probably just a situational pass rusher and ST guy. The kind of middle-class guy every successful team has...punted for a 4th in 2021.

Rd 6 - D Ratley
Decent value here. He's a big target, fast. It'll likely be another year or two before he "shines" - if ever - but that's what you get from 6th Rders if you are lucky.

Rd 7 - S Thomas
7th Rd flyer...I think he's with Seattle now.

Overall pretty good. If Corbet wasn't a bust and C Thomas contributed better, this would have the makings of a pretty good draft. When you have (5) of the first (67) picks, you should do well...and he did...for the most part.

Draft 2019

Rd 1 - Nobody
Part of the OBJ/Vernon acquisition. This had both #1pick player and salary cap implications. The value depends on what happens with OBJ/Vernon in 2020. I think Vernon will be released due to cap hit...OBJ could become an astronaut. Who knows?

Rd 2 - G Williams
What's not to like? I think his falling to Rd 2 could not have been predicted by many fans. I think he was 'forced' to start when Mitchell would have been a better option. Injury and goofy scheme did him no favors. Excellent value here.

Rd 3 - Takitaki
Who knows? I like the guy...but he feels more like a 5th Rder than a 3rd. That's two years in a row where we got 5th Rd production from 3rd Rd picks. I recollect that he was a 'bone' thrown to Wolf who gushed over the guy.

Rd 4 - S Redwine
I personally like the guy...he's not afraid. He has a lot to learn, but good value in Rd 4.

Rd 5 - M Wilson & Siebert

The Wilson pick is classic for Rd5 - as was Avery last year. Good potential...football player. He was forced into action way to early due to Kirksey being injured, Taktaki not ready and Adarious Taylor sucking.

Siebert. He's a kicker. I think he'll be fine. Not outrageous in the 5th Rd. It's too bad the Gonzales saga played out like it did which appears to have forced our hand here.

Rd 6 - D Forbes

Why not? Excellent potential here. Classic 6th Rd flyer. Well done.

Rd - 7
It's the 7th Rd. Flyer on a guy who dropped down due to injury...and a CB...can never have enough CBs or pass rushers.

I'll put the Scottish Hammer in here too - even though he was an UDFA. Very good pick up here...and for free even.

This too has the makings of a pretty good draft. Some guys need to step-up and the trade of the #1 pick needs to return some value...but it's an easy draft to like.

JD managed the draft pretty well even with the Corbett bust. There are only a few picks I'd like to have 'back' in hindsight...but that could be said for any GM.

In the end, it's hard to be critical of JD for the two drafts under his watch.

It seems the man responsible for Patrick Mahomes landing in KC is Brett Veach, the guy who moved up to the GM role after Dorsey was canned. Dorsey just doesn't mind taking the credit.

Here's a good read on the story behind KC drafting Mahomes...

The inside story of how Patrick Mahomes landed with the Chiefs

I like Mack Wilson a lot. I don't understand why he gets so much hate sometimes. He's raw, but he didn't suck. He had a fantastic preseason and I thought we could have done a lot worse than him.

Mack Wilson was rated as one of the worst linebackers in football by PFF.

I think he flashed at times and is still very raw. Saw more bad than good but I think there is an upward trajectory on him.

I was just pointing out why get might get hate.

I don't know if Mack Wilson is good or bad. I do know that he was a rookie fifth round pick that was forced into playing time because Christian Kirksey got hurt. I would expect a big jump going into his second season.

Clearing up some disinformation with your post.

C. Thomas was not a bone to Highsmith ... He was an Andrew Berry selection.

To assume that we drafted him to appease an alumnus is just plane laughable.

Thank you for the correction. FWIW, I'm not suggesting that it is a bad thing for a GM to allow a fellow FO to pine for a particular "known-to-him" player after the 2nd Rd. I got the story right, but missed the FO who was in favor.

From what I've read and videos I've watched, he got lost in run support a lot...really, really a lot. But so did Ogunjobi (in particular) and too many other guys took their turn too.

That said, I think the plan for him was to play STs and develop for at least a year...not to be a starter out of the gate.

I think that was a good pick...even of he becomes noting but a backup and ST demon.

I like his range, his athleticism, and he looks like he's got a pretty high motor.

I think the biggest thing that could hold him back is that being in that 5th Rd range, he could easily fall victim to the "he's not my guy" thing under a new coach.

There are 22 starters on the team. I'd say 15 or so are not on the bubble. Everybody else is or might be. That's just how it goes with a coaching/GM change.

The positive is Dorsey did do a very good job of upgrading the roster. We may not see as much roster purge as one might normally see.

The bottom 20 guys always change. It will be interesting to see how much change takes place with the middle 20 players.

Dorsey also had a boatload of draft picks to work with that allowed him to bring in a bunch of guys. Now? Not so much.

He should have stood in college another year .. physically he’s not NFL ready yet ..

He needs to put some weight/muscle on and learn how to shed blocks ...

He’s got mad upside ... he has athleticism u can’t teach ...

If he stood in school like he should have he may have neen a 1st round pick ...

This is egregious. I feel attacked.

I agree. He reaped the fruit from the pervious bunch, but that still doesn't change the results. He carried out the plan.

I was going to say something similar, but that was bordering on the Sashi/Dorsey crap and I didn't want to go there. That is over now. We should know who our coach is Sunday morning. Lot's the read on Sunday. The GM should only be a few days behind. I think the short list at GM will boil down to 2-3 people.

My only point was that it's easier to turn over the whole roster when you have a ton of picks. Our new coach won't have that option.

and its debatable he did more than average job upgrading talent given how much he had to work with. He whiffed hard on quite a few picks and handed out some dumb contracts.

I assume you are talking about Mack. Correct?

If so, I agree. I don't know if he would have been a 1st round pick, but he would have been no worse than a 2nd round pick. Much better than the 5th or 6th round where he was selected.

But, we don't know some of these kids situations. Money talks. If they come from little, 5th round money can really help a family. A lot of work goes in to it, but being any draft pick is a lotto win for most of these guys. A few $million sounds like a lifetime of ease

Saben said he needed to come back. When your coach is making 4-5-6 mil a year, that sounds petty, but Nick did a lot of waiting himself. In coaching any sport, you don't make much money when you are 24 years old kicking around as a grad assistant at some college or kicking around in baseball as bullpen coach for the Hudson Valley Renegades.

I can see the defensive roster being the victim of another scheme change. That, and many of our "keepers" on D should probably be able to make a switch. Feel free to correct me here.

On offense, I think we're much more locked in. We should be sticking to an offensive scheme that's same or as similar as possible to 2018 (this past season proves that). I don't see us being able to make radical changes. Even the O-line, which needs personnel upgrade anyway, can't be turned over in one offseason.

Mack was a steal, yes maybe a year early, but he looks the part and got much needed playing time this year

Which happens to every GM.

In addition to his not working well with other, I recall also hearing that handing out overly-generous contracts was also a known weakness with Dorsey before he joined the Browns. A year or so after he left the Chiefs they were struggling a little bit with the cap. That seemed to carry forward with his FA signings here, which I found really curious/interesting. He seemed to be a very shrewd negotiator when dealing with other FOs, but then was overly generous with players. Kinda weird, if you ask me.

Agreed. I wouldn't get too caught up on the 4-3/3-4 thing (not you specifically, everyone).

Our defense could have a lot of turnover because a bunch of guys are out of contract (Joe Schobert, Damarious Randall, Eric Murray, Juston Burris) or we can move on from them and save cap space (Christian Kirksey, Olivier Vernon, T.J. Carrie, Terrance Mitchell, Morgan Burnett, and more).

I only see a few locks on defense. Myles Garrett, Denzel Ward, and Greedy Williams.

The problem I have with JD and the Draft is picks like Corbett.. The guy is going to play Left Guard in the NFL , Period . He is not a Tackle in anyway shape or Form .. Dorsey really believed he was going to transform the kid .. Dumb . He isn't even a Right guard ..

C.Thomas was another reach at the " TOP " of the third . Rotational DE at best . Crap value pick.

Callaway , another John is the sharpest tack in the pack pick.. My Son is a Fl. Grad. and football nut job ( just like his old man ) Couldn't believe Dorsey would risk a FOURTH on him..

Avery is a guy I think Coaching staff's are missing the boat on . Playing him out of position.

Would Garrett move to outside LB? That's a risk. Otherwise, our better players would basically be doing the same thing regardless of scheme (Ward, Greedy, Randall), and the rest would be allowed to leave in FA (Schobert).

Q: how many RT or LT can play on either side?

Certainly the majority can not make that transition.

But when a Guy who has played on the Left his whole life can't make the switch to RG he is considered a bust. Okay then.

I know he was in competition for a tackle spot during camp, but I never really took that seriously. I don't know what the story was there, but he was drafted to take over for Tretter, and then when Zeitler was traded he would also be able to man that spot. I don't recall him being considered for tackle at the time he was drafted.

I don't know, it's two different body types.


To me your tackles need to be nimble with longer arms. Guards, more like bouncers. Thick, strong, and get mad if hit.

The switch from LT to RT and vice versa is spoken-of as if it's like changing underwear...it clearly is not.

When an OL is taken with the 1st pick in the 2nd Rd and he gets traded after about 1.5 years...he is considered a bust...or maybe a bust pick.

The 1st, 2nd is like gold. You get all night to think about it and suitors have a night to court you. JD botched that...it happens.

I'm really curious if he turns into another Cam Erving. Erving is terrible, but he's still in the league and starting for a team that should go deep in the playoffs.

Don't get caught up with positions. Myles Garrett is a pass rusher. If someone tries to make him something else then they are doing it wrong.

John Greco was just on the radio the other day talking about it. He said its harder to do than most will ever know. He equated it to being right handed, and someone giving you a pen and saying "now sign your name perfectly with your left hand".

Some guys are ambidextrous, and can do it. Most cannot.

AND not a cornerback. Just turn him loose to wear his guy out. And the other five or so it ought to take to handle him.

General response .. Corbett is a Left Guard ... I watched him closely in preseason ( Bitonio at tackle ) he really adjusted nicely and ended up doing very good job.. He is going to play LG. for someone and do a nice job..

My problem is drafting him at like 32 and believing he would play tackle in the NFL. I don't think any draftniks had him at tackle .. going from left to right is chore ..

Corbett is the Rams starting Left Guard.

Dorsey Drafted Baker and hired Kitchens, those were by far his worst moves.

Failing to bench Baker and fire Kitchens by this year bye got him fired and us without playoff chances.

I like Dorsey, but I think this super mega star GM and John Doe HC will never work, and it was stupid to think it could work.

It can work with a star HC and a low profile GM,but never the opposite.

I think it could have worked .. If Dorsey had taken control of Kitchens. Dorsey needed to do what many GMs of other teams have done when a Head Coach refused to let an Offensive Coordinator call plays, called the Head Coach in and say, "This is not working, Let the person who designed the offense call the plays." That is where Dorsey messed up with Kitchens. He did not stay the "Superstar GM." He allowed Kitchen to FUBAR the offense and get both of them fired.

I'm not sure if this has already been stated, but I think one of the reasons Dorsey is no longer here (among a handful of others) is that Haslam has had his sights set on Josh McDaniels for awhile now. I believe that the backchannnels of communication have been churning with the McDaniels' camp for a bit and I think it was conveyed to Haslam that Dorsey would be a road block to him accepting the HC job and moving to Cleveland (from early rumors). Haslem made an offer to Dorsey that he knew Dorsey would not accept and he was subsequently left packing his things.

I've felt all along the the McDaniels hire was a Jimmy Haslem desire that he really wanted to land....the big name hire. I have no clue how other parties feel about Josh that are part of the hiring process. Many reports have indicated that the team has been chatting with McDaniels for quite a bit and today might just be part of the pagentry to ultimately land him.

I think there are only a few things that could blow this all up.

1. Other interviewees have completely shocked Haslam and McDaniels has some catching up to do.
2. McDaniels absolutely bombs.(probably not going to happen)
3. Jimmy is set on who he wants to replace Dorsey with as a GM and McDaniels doesn't feel comfortable going into the situation without his own hand-picked guy.

It will be interesting to see if there will be any collateral damage/moves as a result of any candidate being announced either today or tomorrow, namely DePodesta.

j/c


If Dorsey was as great as some think he was I wonder why no one is beating down the door to hire him.

I'd actually venture to guess that because Dorsey was so bad as GM, that he'll never hold another GM position in the NFL again.

I'm a Dorsey skeptic as much as anyone on here but I think most teams have their GMs already in place and I bet Dorsey doesn't want to take a demotion as a scout or equivalent title. Plus, like most GMs and coaches of the Browns, Dorsey will be paid not to work for the next couple of years.

This was the argument that Sashi haters made just after being fired, and it wasn't a good one, IMO.

I do think he'll get a job sooner rather than later but I, too, wonder if it will be a GM role. There is a large enough sample size about his issues with poor financial management, ego, and a lack of organizational leadership to concern teams. That and I think the guy came across as a rather dense person.

Yes, I was being facetious in that regard.


However, my latter comment I was not. Dorsey wasn't very good. And I'm sure I'm not the only one that holds that opinion.

If Haslam has wanted to bring in McDaniels for a while, when did this start ? Could Dorsey have stopped it by assisting Freddie ? Would forcing Freddie to use Monken's game plans, or allowing Monken to call plays, say.. after the Denver game, have changed our fortunes on the field ? I'm not saying all would have been great, and the Browns would have made the Playoffs, but could that change of perspective kept both Freddie and Dorsey's jobs ? I know hindsight is 20/20, but with all the criticism of play calling, it is a speculation worth discussing. Could Dorsey have changed things by taking control at that point and telling Freddie, "Things are not working with your play calling, let the offensive coordinator call the plays."

JC

I think JD’s failures were the hiring of FK (whether he truly believed in him or just wanted to control the coach) and his inability to work with people in the FO

Dorsey still looks really bad in this scenario. Dorsey flexed his muscle to hire Freddie, specifically, because of his play calling "magic" from the previous year. Taking it away that soon says, "I've already messed up this hire."

I'd say identifying a mistake and being willing to address it is a much better character trait to have than to dig your heels in and double down on a mistake. It might have been a bad look - but it would have been the right thing to do = and doing the right thing given any set of circumstances is really want the people who report to you to try to do.

Typically, yes that is a good trait. However, we saw just last year what a disaster it is when you start dictating how your HC can run his team. In this instance, Dorsey flexed his muscle to hire Freddie and pulling the play calling duties so suddenly, would demonstrate a lack of faith and support and a bit of a panic move.

It would be a bad look on Dorsey, not some admirable quality.

I think you do what is best for the team, or lose your job. Dorsey lost his job ...

makes you wonder if Freddie was just like... trade him. I won't play him. vs he sucks (to all of the players Dorsey traded)

much like he did hollywood.

I don't think Freddie had ANY say in anything that went on with the roster. I believe that was 100% John.

but... he can refuse to play those players.

Freddie showed many times over the course of the season that if he didn't like someone... he wouldn't play them.

Something tells me he would walk into Dorsey's office and be like... trade them. I won't play them.

That would make sense if Freddie had ANY credibility. he didn't.

1. Its widely been reported from KC to Clevealnd that John was very headstrong. He would not allow a rookie HC demand anything about the roster.

Heck, the dude wouldn't let the OWNER take away his say on the roster, why would he let a rookie HC, who 0 other teams would have hired, come into his office and demand things. Just doenst add up.

2. We watched as Dorsey traded Hyde beceause Haley and Hue wouldn't play Chubb. Dorsey is not going to let a coach of Freddies stature demand anything.

very, very good points

Just a comment here folks....and this isn't directed at willie, it is a problem all over the board.

How about we copy the lines we are going to reply to rather than simply quote the entire chain of comments in the thread.

Sure, it is a little more work, but it make the board more readable.

If people don't know how to do that, we can have a class.

Heck...here is is.

Copy and paste what is it you are commenting on....everybody knows how to do that.

[] type quote between the brackets. then paste what you just copied.

then [/quote...another ] after quote

Bingo Bamo...a much cleaner board.

i like to read the entire string so I can remember what the hell we were just talking about

IMO John Dorsey did some good, positive things while he was here but it seems to me he had some serious character flaws. Those flaws to me would limit his success in the long run and start to cause problems. I imagine that's what led to his firing in KC and again here.

I typically will try to do that, but if its a longer conversation, I will try to get the full context of the topic, or if I am replying to an older post, will include all of it as a refresher.

I typically quote the whole thing because I'm lazy.

:-p

I don't get why you need to repeat something you just read, but...

Dorsey did some good things, and he did some bad things. IMO, he attempted to swing for the fences, and struck out. OBJ, Vernon, FK, all splash plays which could make him look really great, or ..... Not. Ditching guys like Fells for "his guy" Harris was a bad move. Keeping Corbett, and then relying on him for too long, another bad move, and like many, driven by Ego and me me me, rather than simply a bad evaluation. Making John Dorsey look good was part of the evaluation. Making the Browns a good team was secondary.

The hiring of FK, was the cherry on top, and again, this decision was made to allow JD's ego more control, not to make the Browns a good team. Freddy was not ready and JD was certainly in position to know this. Not just a bad move, but a really stupid one, and one made so the full Dorse could maintain full control.

Do you people realize that in the space of two seasons, we managed to have not only the worst HC in NFL history, but a second one who was possibly even Worse?? Holy Bejeezus Gawd.

As someone has pointed out, Corbett started at LG for the Rams and finished out the season at that position. Not sure what the Rams' roster/injury situation was, but Corbett is currently a starting guard.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nf...ncies/40610507/

John Dorsey was good. He did not deserve to be, nore should have have been fired. He's been the best GM, in terms of bringing in talent, that we've had since the return.

Dorsey has only made one mistake that I can see, when he traded Zeitler for Vernon, BAD move. Other than that, he brought in good FA's and drafted well. Now, was he perfect, hell no, but if you're waiting on perfection, you will be waiting a very long time and never see positive results.

I bet he goes on to help another team, and I would not be surprised if that team gets to the Super Bowl before the Browns ever do, IF they ever do.

I agree the Zeitler trade was not good the way it turned out, but you forgot his biggest mistake, the one that got him removed, the hiring of Freddie Kitchens ...

So the Browns where going to sit Bitionio to start Corbett ? I keep trying tell folks Corbett is a LEFT guard " period " .. I guess Freddie could have tried to move Bitonio to the right , yea that works ! Willing to bet that Corbett plays LEFT his whole career .. Round beg , round hole ..

John Dorsey was the best GM we have had since the return and it isn't even close. He brought more talent to this team in two years' time than the rest of them did put together. Firing him was the stupidest thing Haslam has done since he bought the team and that is saying something.

Some of you seem to forget just how BAD the former GM's have been here in Cleveland. Dorsey wasn't perfect, no GM is. But he was MILES better than anyone else this team hired. I will miss him greatly when our next GM turns out to be a complete failure. Refuses to ever spend in FA or make any trades to get us some players.

I don't agree with your opinion.

I actually wish we still had Savage.

How soon is too soon for a Tom Heckert joke?

Heckert is deceased now, so probably shouldn't talk about him.

So still too soon?

I think so .. yep.

Haslam didn't fire him. It was a mutually agree split.

He did do a good job but I wouldn't say excellent. He had a lot of room to deal and make selections.

I wish he could have stayed, but HE is the one who made the enormous blunder of hiring Freddie to coach what could have been a playoff caliber team look like a bunch of flap-lipped foot sniffers.

at being so naive .... naaa ... your not naive ....

at U being so protective of the thief that u support the spin it was a mutual split ...

You mean that you don't take a corporate PR statement as fact?

You are being disingenuous Peen ...

They where both equally to blame for hiring Freddie.

Well then, here's hoping we get another Farmer. You guys will LOVE that. lol

I disagree. That was Dorseys hire.

Think back to the introductory press conference. Jimmy and Dee were sitting in the crowd. They weren't up on stage smiling and gushing.

They let their football guy pick his guy, so I suppose in a way, you are right. Somebody should have stepped in and said, "no, we can do better than that".

peen...Really..?

Because the Haslams didn't set "in front" of the crowd when Freddie was introduced...to you, that translates into "the Haslams" didn't have a voice in the HC selection..they didn't pick Freddie!

...REMARKABLE analysis...no agenda in your analysis, right?

WHEN HAVE THE HASLAMS, NOT BEEN INVOLVED IN THE MAJOR DECISIONS OF THE FRANCHISE?

Johnnie Manziel ...?
Hue Jackson...?

WHO PICKED EM?

That's his story and he's sticking to it. The Haslams sign the checks and are at the top of the food chain here. But they're very wealthy and from Tennessee, so somebody has to protect them.

Dorsey right now is water under the bridge and 5 miles downstream.

And last year they let John make the call. Had the Haslams made the call, they would have no real grounds to offer John a reduced role. They reduced his ability to hire the next coach.

The coach was the problem last season, not the players Dorsey brought in

So when Dorsey said “I flexed my muscle and got the guy I wanted” he was:

a. Parroting the corporate pr release.

b. Saying how it would work in a perfect world.

c. Telling it exactly how it was.

Hue Jackson is in the lake.

And hopefully Haslam is exiting the swamp.

Ugh ... have to say - seeing Fells play for Houston and doing so well, and knowing what hot garbage we had at TE this year .... it does piss me off.

hope you meant TE. While Mayfield was not great, hot garbage is a little much, me thinks.

Hot garbage is over board ..... but Bake was the reason Njoku was rendered useless ...

I did mean TE. Baker wasn't good either - but he wasn't as bad as our TE's.

Baker's throw certainly put Njoku in harms way .... but that doesn't deflect from one area of talent evaluation Dorsey did a horrible job with.

I think if you looked at how we ranked at both the TE and QB position in 2019, you'd find those rankings to be pretty close.

Maybe.

But we had a QB who was one of the top 12? 15? in the NFL in his rookie season. Every reason to have faith in him before the start of the 2019 season...... The TE's? went from at least an average group of performers in 2018 to crapolla in 2019.

If Baker is a bust - D+

If baker is a bust it’s an f

All the way. You miss on the first overall pick and you fail. It's pretty simple.

ESpecially with it benign a quarterback

Can’t mess that up

He got us OBJ and VG...LOL!

Agreed

Dorsey failed to get the Browns into the playoffs
And he failed to get rid of the Browns perception
Around the league
He was by far the Browns best GM since Butch Davis but that's not saying much
Every GM has failed flopped in Cleveland
Theres no argument in that.

Being the best GM we've had in years isn't saying much.

And I would argue against Dorsey being the best.

I would be surprised if he ever became GM again.

I still say Phil was the best (change my mind )

I would vote Phil as well.

You might be right, but I wouldn't be confident betting either way.

I'll repeat what I said earlier. It was Dorsey's coaching hire that opened him up for criticism and made him vulnerable. Haslam approached him with a reduced role, because Kitchens had to go, and there's no way I'm giving Dorsey another shot at HC decision (whether it's retaining Kitchens or trying to hire the next guy). Dorsey wouldn't accept a reduced role, and here we are. Believable situation, and I don't really blame anyone involved (even Dorsey, to a degree). I wouldn't want to be even more under Haslam's thumb and in line with other execs in the org (like DePo and the new coach).

It sucks, but I get why we're down both a coach and a GM.

This is very well true. A better HC hire and a playoff birth and Dorsey may still be here. Aside from some player acquisitions, the actual GMing Dorsey did was pretty bad.

With a playoff berth I don't see how anyone could make an argument to give him the boot.

Last season wasn't just bad, it was monumentally bad. In spite of our issues throughout the season, we still had the opportunity to squeak in to a wild card spot the last couple weeks. The teams we needed to lose, lost... all we had to do was play competent football. The universe was practically trying to force feed us a play off berth! The Browns were a fussy 2 year old.. every time the playoff baby food airplane was coming in to the hangar, they'd spit it out, clench their jaws, and flip the whole baby tray!

Dorsey is out for two reasons. His hand selected pick of Freddie as head coach and his inability to swallow a little pride and allow Depo, a nerd in Dorseys eyes, lead the coaching search.

Sorry John, Haslam gave you the magic wand, and you come up with Freddie Kitchens as your head coach?


I like Freddie. I think he is a grinder, and works hard. He just isn't a head coach in the NFL.


There is nothing wrong with being a good assistant coach. Most everybody here would take that job and that pay.

The more I look at this roster, the more doubts I have now about King Johnny.

Baker looks like he could still be a bust.

He was right on the money with Nick.

He hired the worst head coach in NFL history and that's saying something.

Zeitler and Peppers look a lot better than OBJ and Vernon right now.

He didn't hire Hue

Hue didn't have the talent Freddie did.

Zeitler, Vernon, the 16th pick, and a 4th.

Freddie also had more wins in his first 4 games than Hue did in his first 34.

NFL talent disparities aren't as big as people make them out to be. There are what, 200+ college programs feeding 32 NFL teams? Even fringe NFL players are very good football players, and that 2017 team had a lot more "real" players than some want to admit. We can list them if anybody is interested.

Now, that being said, Freddie clearly had a better team to work with, so how people want to sort that out is anybody's guess. I'll take the guy who won 6 games his first season and then didn't even have the chance to show improvement in season two, over the guy who won 1 game his first season and then had to cash in his promise to jump into Lake Erie because he did worse in his second season. Good riddance.

It makes me aggravated just thinking about it. The Browns are a historic franchise in professional football and to seeing them reduced to that... arrgh.

Anyway, about Dorsey:

I think the book is still not fully written yet. He's been gone what, a couple weeks? We still don't fully know how a lot of the young players he brought in are going to work out. Consider the old rule that you can't really evaluate a draft class until three years later.

There's also the issue of what he brought in vs. what he had to work with (i.e. a lot). Draft picks and cap space are the currency teams use to bring in players and we were stocked with both. Reverse draft order (e.g. picking first in every round in 2018) helps a lot as well.

Comparing the talent brought in when teams are in asset accumulation mode vs asset spending mode always looks different. Same reason why Chris Grant never gets the credit he deserves for that 4 year Cavs run-- he is the one who accumulated all the assets that were later spent by another GM.

It's just another factor to consider. I'm not necessarily saying it means JD did a bad job as the list of names he brought in does appear to be impressive. Which brings up my last point in this rambling mess of a post-- remember that you're building a team, not just collecting talent. I believe that Dorsey was not mindful enough about the "building a team" aspect and that reared its ugly head week 1 vs the Titans and didn't get much better after that. Or maybe you put that all on Freddie... ok, that was Dorsey's pick for head coach and he flexed his muscles to make it happen. Either way, it's on Dorsey.

Agreed. Although, in the end, I still don't think it will look good. I'm interested to see the trajectory especially for Greedy and Mack Wilson.



Clearly, that is tough for a few people on here to understand.

[satire] Well of course it is. [/satire]

No .. Hue was 8 - 8 with the Raiders

I don't have much issue with Dorsey's drafts...there are a few picks I'm sure he'd rather get back...it happens. He did well...but he should have done well with the # of picks at his disposal- and the slot those picks were in in each round.

Outside of the draft? My my my. I think he completely failed at O-line, TE and D-line. He removed from the team good football players and replaced them with guys like D Harris and Kush (I'll give him credit for the chance taken on Richardson)...then made moves like paying TJ Carrie a boatload of money because he just traded McCourty - for not liking JD's stupid comment about "real football players". His "real football players" comment was as ignorant as Freddie wearing the "Pit started it" T-shirt.

So...the guy did well with the bounty of picks he inherited...punted too much of the talent already on the roster at his arrival...and failed to replace those "not real football players" with guys who were any better...and had many of those replacements turn out to be worse...while burning some valuable cap...and then the Freddie hire and management duties of a complete GM. He didn't "leave" just because of the Freddie hire.

I'd give him a C-...which rounded up for the curve in the Browns-history-of-GM-performance...gets him to a B- (not saying much there). If he wasn't gifted the 2nd additional pick in Rds 1 & 2 - resulting in Ward and Chubb - he'd be a solid D...and his choice of Corbett over Chubb et al just might have been a career-ender.

His 3 worst moves

#! - Hiring Freddie Kitchens instead of retaining Gregg Williams. Williams had the franchise moving in the right direction. They played tough, disciplined, hard nosed football. Kitchens as OC allowed Baker to flourish as QB.

#2 - Trading Kevin Zeitler for Olivier Vernon was a horrible trade. Zeitler was the Browns best Offensive lineman that helped to solidify an OLine with weak Tackles. Vernon was an absolute bust. He did next to nothing. Team would have been much better off keeping Emmanual Ogbah at DEnd opposite Garrett. Vernon disappeared in games he played in and was injury prone. Terrible trade.

#2 Drafted Austin Corbett at the top of the 2nd round #33 overall. Will Hernandez was taken 1 pick later and started all 16 games last season for the NY Giants.

Cutting Jamie Collins and not getting anything in return was pretty bad too. But I can't argue with your top 3, especially when the Corbett decision came over Nick Chubb taken two picks later. Imagine not having that extra pick.

Thanks, Brock Osweiler.

Thanks for validating my post even more.

Yeah, it sucks we missed out on Chubb. No, wait, Dorsey drafted Chubb.

No one is saying we missed out on Chubb, obviously.

Imagine not having that extra pick. Imagine not having all those extra picks and Dorsey drafting zero pro bowlers trying to build a team.

King John, baby...Let's GOOOOOoooooo

Why would you direct Diams go to line towards me? Here is your comment.....



How do you know he wouldn't have selected Chubb if he had only of had one pick there?

You see, part of the draft process is to be able to understand what the other teams plan to do with their picks. Evaluating that Chubb would still be there when our next piack came around is part of that process.

Already knowing you had that other pick is part of that process.

Imagine what might have happened if the powers that be before Dorsey came actually tried building a team instead of ripping it to shreds while compiling draft picks?

I mean if you wish to play the "what if" game.

That's pretty obvious, no?

Not at all.

You have two picks with the next three. You feel confident you can draft both of the players you have targeted with those two picks.

At that point there's no need to decide between the two picks because you'll get them both.

Try again.

Let's talk John Dorsey...talk in a deeper voice and extend your lips as far away from your teeth as possible the whole time while talking...

I am Johoon Dooorseeey. I Uuummm, Ahhh yoor foooball guy.. Heeee

Dude. What?

He drafts player A before player B, but if he only has one pick he's drafting player B?

Silliest thing I ever heard.

Wasn't given enough time.

Thankfully. Otherwise, we'd have Freddie Kitchens entering his 2nd as our HC.

Maybe, maybe not, we will never know.

I know a couple of you wish to make everything with me some sort of argument, but let me show you just how silly of an assumption you are making.

Let's actually look at that draft. We had picks 33 and 35. The only pick between our two picks were the Giants. The Giants had just chosen Saquon Barkley with the #2 overall pick in the draft in round 1.

There was ZERO chance they would select Chubb. Zero. Austin Corbett certainly turned out to be a terrible pick for us. But the Giants did need some help on the OL and had zero chance of selecting a RB in round 2.

So common sense dictates that if you pick Chubb at #33, there is a chance you miss out on your OL pick at #35. However, if you pick your OL pick at #33, it's a 100% chance Chubb will be there at #35.

Now if you only have the #33 pick, at that point you have to choose which of those two to select. That's where you nor I have any idea which selection Dorsey would have made. Neither would have been around by our round three selection.

I know some find it hard to comprehend, but there's actually a strategy to drafting players in regards to when and where. To insure he got both his intended targets, he did it exactly the right way.

And if he had to choose between the two players, you have no idea which he would have selected. If you think you do, then you honestly believe the needs of the other team between those two picks has nothing to do with draft strategy.

That would be a mistake on your part.

Imagine for a second we end up drafting the player the Giants want at 34. Tampa Bay is in dire need of a RB and they also know we most likely want one. Tampa has Chubb rated #1 on their board and really want him. They've already offered to swap picks and give an additional pick because they really want Chubb to be their RB.

Giants say ok to the trade since we drafted the player they wanted and Tampa takes Chubb at 34. Now we have Corbett and Chubb is off the board, so who do we draft now that you assumed 100% Chubb would be there?

That would be a mistake on your part.

I think it's obvious we valued Corbett more than Chubb.

What are you going to tell me next? Lemme guess, "we should draft Barkley @1 and the best available quarterback @4."

That is a completely ridiculous claim. That was a "smartest guy in the world" pick.

The strategies that might play out in the top third of the first round are drastically different by the start of the second round.

Either Corbett was higher than Chubb on JD's draft chart OR he somehow panicked after a night to consider his draft board and overrode the work done in the lead-up to the draft and flexed his muscles. Either way...it was a busted pick.

I'm football guy and I pick football players, got to get real players like I traded good/great guard for edge rusher....ugh, except he's hurt and a dud....and no worries cuz our line is number 2....just plug my 2nd rnd draft pick in there.....Bottom line, our expert turned a strength into a weakness and did not help D....ain't I great.....like Butch how KNEW run Willie run was the man....dope head.....got to luv our experts....GO Browns!!!!

j/c

I'm surprised Tyrod Taylor hasn't come up in this discussion. #65 overall pick and $16 million cap space for 2.5 games of lousy QB play.

That and the differing styles of QB between starter and backup that never makes sense when NFL teams do it. Like we trade for Taylor, who was running Greg Roman's zone-read based scheme in Buffalo, then draft Baker #1 overall who would never run such a scheme. It just doesn't make sense.. an example of collecting talent, not building a team.

Ah, so you come up with a make believe trade scenario to try and defy logic.

I agree.

If anything, just look at history. I could see a trade down depending on who is there and who is buying.

All year long we have been looking for Dorsey players. Now with Stefanski and whoever is going to be GM, an entirely different criteria might be used.

I read a piece saying we will punt this draft. I don't think we do that because there are winning expectations, but I could see us move back a time of two to gain for next year. I think that is always going to be a part of the draft strategy to some extent. Maybe an every other year deal. Move back one year to gain picks, then trade up the following to get better players.

That said, I hope we don't move back out of 10 very far, if at all. There are some good OT's who can step in a play. Unless we sign a couple of good linemen in FA, we have to come away with a OL starter in the draft. That may sound like needs drafting, but this year I don't think it is..I think needs and BPA match-up nicely this year.

I have no clue what they're going to do. I certainly think there are variables in terms of if your building a winning team or stock piling drafts for the future.

I'm in a wait and see game and not trying to come to any foregone conclusions either way.

j/c...

I thought Dorsey was a pretty good GM although to be honest with the draft picks and Cap room that we had who couldn't improve the team with that ammo.

Mayfield btw is no where close to being a Bust. Keep in mind this will be his 3rd offense in 3 seasons with the Browns a Disease that has to stop. Let our QBs whoever they are get settled in an offense that can last a long time.

Our O will be very similar to Kyle Shanahan's O regarding the Zone blocking and we got better RBs to run in it - we do have to invest in OL to get it done. As well as some stud TEs which seem the way to go with Run pass options.

Kyle meanwhile is an excellent Coach he has learned and progressed a lot since his stay here. He was always a good OC and play caller but his HC skills have been impressive if we get half of that from Stpenowski that will be great.

Back to Dorsey, DePodesta was stepping in as his research and study of the NFL football game reached its peak and he was ready to take over. I don't think Dorsey was ready to work that way as understandable he wanted to run it all which he did not have in KC and now not here...so we parted ways.

Looking back the Kitchens decision was a mistake. We are one year lost as this should be the 2nd season of Stepenowski.

So I think we are keeping a lot of the frame work established by Dorsey. Wolf and Alonzo I think will be our GM duo if we do not see a Good one out there for us.

We got the franchise QB, two great RBs now we got to stop trying to get a bunch of all stars and get perfect pieces for the Puzzle on our future endeavors. I'm curious on who we will tag for our DC as we have stated that we will go Attack all the way.

I think a big key is OL investment...TE and/or FB should be easy to add.

I wish Dorsey luck and I'm sure he will get his shot at COMPLETE Control somewhere. Although this is the ERA of HC running and controlling the teams!

jmho

I agree EO. I don't think the situations are similar between now and when Sashi and crew took over. The plan then was to take it apart.

That isn't the plan here. We are going to see some roster turnover, but probably no more then had Dorsey stuck around.

I am sure Stefanski and whoever will be very pleased with our skill players. It basically boils down to the OL. They aren't going to like some of that.

TE....I am telling you, Carelson….I think he can be our stud. Read up on him.

As for D, well, that needs some work. Overall it needs more fixing then does the O.

I honestly don't think Dorsey will get another shot as GM. Some desperate team might try him out, but he will fail again.

I believe we are about to embark on year 5 of the original plan.

This wasn't the expected route and we should have had more success by now, but I think we're finally about to get it right.

Of little use now. I thank Dorsey for a lot of good. I regret the ways that some things shook out.
But I will respect his hard work and improvements we made. FK lowered the bar in hindsight with little improvement or adjustment. Tough outcomes, but I won't write this off as a total loss.
And if some of these folks perform closer to expectations under this coach, I think Dorsey deserves some credit however grudgingly.

We could be in year two of Stefanski had things played out differently.

We could be in year 3 of Vrabel had things played out differently.

We could be in year 4 of McDermott had things played out differently.

It could be year 30 of Belichick...

Nahhh .. Belichick would have left with the Ravens .. and we'd still have Palmer.

Interesting thought...the detour in FO and this years coaching change probably throws that back a year or so.

Also, John went to building the Browns the same as he did in KC. All in on O with D seeming to be a secondary thought.

We do have a lot of work on D. It could be argued that each position group need multiple upgrades.

Build the 'D' with the idea of containing Lamar Jackson & Co. Are we missing Jabril Peppers?

I mean there's no doubt Dorsey brought in talented players. He also got rid of talented players. I have no problem with the players Dorsey brought in, but he had no direction and he ruled with an iron fist. You can't run a team thay way. It's also why he was fired from KC. Maybe he'll change and be successful, but he'll never win the way he operated as GM with KC and Cleveland.

The Chiefs were 43 and 21 in his time as GM there.

Andy Reid was 43 and 21.

So was John Dorsey.

Dorsey was a good GM. He just made one bad trade in going after vernon. I said at the beginning of the year it would hurt the team and it did. All this team really needs from this draft and off season trading is the best offensive line they can get. IF they just manage that then this team could do well next season.

They certainly are in need of a Safety and you could argue TE as well.

It doesn't defy logic. Any team can trade up between picks and get the guy you want, so you take the higher rated player and then deal with it if your other guy isn't there. We wanted Mahomes at 12 and KC traded up from 27 I believe and took him at 10. It happens. But to say that we would have taken Chubb at 32 if we didn't have 34 defies logic. Either way, we got Chubb and he's been great, but I think the evidence strongly points at Dorsey rating Corbett higher than Chubb.

The Giants took Barley at #2. They weren't going to pick another RB at #33.

Your example is trading up for a franchise QB, not a second round RB.

It's obvious draft strategy isn't your strong suit.

Not to enter the debate, but teams can trade up. Chubb could have been a trade up target. Either way there is no telling, You both have valid arguments, so call it a draw and walk on.

It doesn't matter. You guys are in argument over things that didn't happen.


As for John, he made more that one mistake. Vernon wasn't the only.

His biggest was promoting Freddy to head coach. I don't blame Fred, I blame John.

Oh the irony.

Agree. I think people are looking at Dorsey's move with the thought that Baker is still the Baker we saw year 1. Hes not. Ward is always hurt. Ill give him a pass on his play last year at times, since he was playing in zone a lot and is a man guy.

But if Baker has another bad year, and if ward cant stay healthy - then King John looks like the biggest case of fools gold on earth.

If baker is the baker we all thought and hope, and ward can stay on the field, then Dorsey is the guy we thought he was, or at least somewhere in between.

We shall see. Time always tells.

This. 100% agree.

John was a good talent evaluator, he made some good moves, and some BAD moves. Some moves are still waiting to see if they are going to pan out. But his biggest move and mistake was Freddie. By far.

19 of the 32 second round picks that year changed hands at one point or another. Some before the draft and some during. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_NFL_Draft#Trades

Right? The argument that just because NYG took a RB @ 2 means that the Browns can value Corbett over Chubb because no one else could slide into the slot before them is pretty comical. Or even worse, simply because Barkley was already drafted means they were able to switch their picks.

Judas Priest (In my Ken Carmen impression).

No one gets all of their decisions right .... especially when trying to pull a team out of a 1-31 disaster. Dorsey plugged in as many pieces as he could on a barren roster. Yes he has draft picks ..... but he also had nothing at QB, RB, and in the secondary. We had a WR, a TE, 3 OL, a few DL, and a pair of LB, (not counting Collins, who played like a guy on his way out of town once he got his deal) a P and a LS. This team was riddled with holes.

I'm not surprised you missed the point..... again.

The point was, if Dorsey only had one of those two picks, people have no idea if he would have taken Corbett of Chubb.

And you don't.

No, we don't.

But we had Hyde and Duke Johnson on the roster - I would ASSume he would still have taken Corbett with taking the roster construct into consideration. Corbett was a higher need than RB was at the time.

We don't know though, you are correct in that aspect.

"Mmmmm Hmmmm"

I think this argument really only comes into play when a team has back-to-back picks. Then it really doesn't matter which one you take first.

When there's another team picking inbetween your picks, it seems pretty obvious that a GM is going to pick the player he values more first. What are you even going on about over there?

Teams trade up and down on draft day all the time. Chubb was projected to go in that late first, early second round area to begin with. A team very well could have traded up to pick #34 and taken Chubb.

You'd think it would be obvious, but here we are.

It is obvious for those who really don't wish to consider it.

Chubb had gone through a major injury and wasn't even 100% at that point. He was playing again but not performing to his old self. I actually had a debate on whether he would ever be his old self again. I saw him well on his way to being back to 100%. Others didn't. That question alone would have given teams pause to ttrade up for him.

It's odd how some of the same people trying to debate this claim the value of RB's have dropped. Yet now they claim some team would ahve given up additional resources for a RB.

I think it was more about need than talent. The Browns needed a LT .. Corbett played LT at Nevada, as did Bitonio. The supposition was one would play LT and the other would play Guard.

Chubb was an additional piece, a luxury pick, due to having a high 3rd round pick. We already had a good RB ( Hyde ) and a backup ( Duke ). Dorsey went with need first, luxury second. It did not work out, but many draft picks do not, which as Browns fans, we know all too well.

That would be assuming anyone actually believed Corbett could play OT at the NFL level. I don't feel anyone did.

but maybe they thought Bitonio could.

I used the 2019 draft here by mistake. Here are the 2018 draft trades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_NFL_Draft#Trades

There, 16 of the 32 second round picks were traded at one point or another.

Maybe someone with more motivation than I have can tell us how many of those were on draft day, and maybe even find an example or two of teams trading up for running backs. Or not.. it's not that big of a deal.

Maybe.

So he drafted Corbett in the second round thinking he would be a guard when we had Bitonio and Zeitler? And then went into the season with Greg Robinson and Desmond Harrison as the potential left tackles?

That is pretty poor.

The argument that Corbett is just a failed tackle makes Dorsey look much better. Everyone misses on picks.

Nobody in draft circles project Corbett to be an OT at the NFL level.







Everyone who bothered to look at this knew Corbett wasn't projected as an NFL OT. So you just keep on carrying on about it.

Our biggest problem as fans and as an organization is we are always looking into our past more than our future ... JMHO

Since 1999, the past tells us that looking into the future didn't help.

I thought they originally drafted him to eventually take over at center?

He was certainly seen as an interior lineman. I haven't seen anything to indicate for certain which one of those positions he was drafted to play.

That was my point. We drafted a guy to play guard, in the second round, when we already had two of the best guards in league on the roster.

It could have been center. I really have no idea. Either way it was a very poor pick as it turned out.

What's ironic is you are saying 100% you knew what was going to happen to argue your point, and then you say no one knew what was going to happen to argue your point.

Um.....

I believe the consensus thinking it was to replace Tretter at C, but I don't believe the team ever came out and stated their intentions - it was just the writing on the wall at the time, as he had Zietler and Joel - and Tretter was battling some injuries if I recall.


When we traded Zietler, they tried to plug him in there.

Either way, it was a bad pick, especially at 33 - regardless of who we drafted after him.

It most certainly was a bad pick...especially at #33 overall.

What followed in Corbett's regard was atrocious talent evaluation and a total failure at maintaining a solid OL in front of his sophomore, 6'tall QB. What was atrocious was watching your #33 overall pick cycle through failures at OT, C & RG and then STILL trade away your All-Pro RG who was playing beside your atrocious RT/turn-style.

The pick itself wasn't the issue as much as the decisions surrounding that pick that followed. He parlayed a bad pick into a fire-able act.

I understand you have selective comprehension depending on the poster, but I did know, and so did everybody else, that the Giants were not going to select a RB.

I also know that Chubbs performance during his Senior year at Georgia he had less YPC than both his Freshman and Sophomore years.

I also know that the Giants needed and selected an interior OL player with their #34 pick. Exactly the reason why I stated that Dorsey chose to select Corbett before Chubb.

So maybe you should actually bring something to the table in this debate rather than to try and shoot the messenger.

It's mind-numbing that you two are still debating the same tired, meaningless point.

Nobody is forcing you to follow it.

But follow it, I will...

I would agree if it was a stand alone thread. The problem is the banter is in a thread that people do want to follow.

JMO

Oddly enough, that draft and the picks made in that draft ARE part of evaluating John Dorsey.

You see, John Dorsey made mistakes. That's clear enough. But some of the crazy things people reach for to claim he made errors that simply weren't made is the issue here.

I've only commented on it twice....now thrice.

Let me add that I'm wearing my shirt that reads "Memphis started it."