DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Evaluating John Dorsey as CLE GM

Not to mention claims of excellent player-talent acquisition with not ONE player actually named. Odd.

It's called "The Full Dorse".

Just every expert in the NFL that agrees.

Hilarious...and so typical. Do you think those guys understand - or even know about - the actual transactions posted in this thread?

Who are those experts? What commentary did they provide? Better yet...what do YOU think about the transactions detailed in this thread?

j/c

I'm going to jump off with the opinion (conclusion) that Dorsey was more successful with the roster than he failed because heading in to Week 1 the general consensus was that this roster was stacked. There were some concerns about the O line and honestly our safeties didn't do it for me, but there was also the belief that Freddie was going to be creative enough on offense to mitigate our weaknesses.

I also think its fair to say Dorsey is catching most of his flack for Freddie. But shouldn't he? I don't think anyone is really denying that, the question is how much does he deserve and should he have been fired or pushed out over it. I don't think the organization thought he did. They offered him the opportunity to stay. (edit: I will allow the possibility that the organization made an offer no one in their right mind would accept).

Whatever you want to attribute to it, this past season was a disaster. I view it as a wasted season. I understand the hesitation to let Dorsey make another HC pick. I also understand the hit to his judgement if he were to advocate for a second season of Freddie.

So what are you to do with a guy like that?

For now I'm going to sit on the possibility I mentioned in another thread: just like some awesome OC and DC's aren't cut out to be HC's, maybe Dorsey's ceiling is player talent evaluation and management is just not in the cards for him.

I'm all for accountability. Even extreme accountability. Dorsey should feel responsibility for playcalling, because he was the one that hired Freddie. But the reality is that Freddie's brain is where those curious offensive decisions came from. Yes, Dorsey was the one that made it so those brainwaves directly resulted in terrible playcalling and scheme. But it's still a big jump to then say that Dorsey should be fired because of coaching decisions.

Your BS has gotten old. Every person on this board knows thet experts all across the country feel Dorsey did a great job of bringing talent to our roster. Even you know it.

Now go play your babies diaper role with someone else. You know, always on your azz and usually full of..... I'll stop there. Hey, if you really want to argue the point, go to every expert that said Dorsey brought all this talent here. I'm sure they are up for a good joke.

The O line...the ultimate fail. There is a trifecta of fails in this unit. We have a draft pick bust at #33 overall. We have a talent evaluation that suggested that that 33rd pick could play LT in the NFL...then Center...then G. Nope...then dumped for a 5th. I'll call that fail (1) when it actually represents (2) separate fails.

The Zeitler trade weakened the interior of the O Line for our 6', sophomore QB who was coached by our rookie-at-everything Head Coach. We never found a guy better than a journeyman-type to fill the shoes of the All-Pro he traded. Fail (2).

Standing pat with two below-average Ts was epic. Did he think Hubbard would help the RG? Because he sure missed the impact that losing Zetler would have on the already-bad RT play. Fail (3).

It's one thing to miss on a draft pick...it's another thing to completely blow the talent evaluation of the 33rd pick - when the GM is supposedly this great talent-evaluator - but weakening the line takes the cake.

JD did bring in a few decent backups...so there's that.

Maybe he over estimated what Freddie was going to bring to the table? I mean, for his lack of experience I'd have to imagine Dorsey had to lobby pretty hard to get Jimmy to sign off on him. Add to that the belief that Freddie was part of an up and coming crop of innovative coaches... I could totally see Dorsey thinking the O line was a weakness that Freddie could mitigate.

I don't care what they thought...I do this crazy thing called 'thinking for myself'. I even go so far as to detail-out my thoughts. You should try it sometime.

Your complete lack of any real rebuttal coupled by your standard go-to of insults is very telling.

Overall, JD did a poor job here. You have put forth nothing that rebuts that opinion.

With all of the people on here that are in support of Dorsey, the way you single me out makes your agenda way too obvious. Think it out better next time.

I see where "thinking for yourself" has gotten you.

j/c...

Stalnaker is pretty miffed about the TE situation, too!...

What else could there possibly be? How about free agent contracts. Take a look at these gems - salaries for 2020:

Chris Hubbard - $7,300,000
Olivier Vernon - $15,500,000
Sheldon Richardson - $13,666,666
Adarious Taylor (aka Who?) - $2,950,000
TJ Carrie - $8,150,000
T Mitchell - $3,666,668
Morgan Burnett - $4,746,875

Not a free agent...but yikes:

OBJ - $14,250,000

So...the NY Giants transactions got us OBJ & Vernon for 2020...at a total tab of...$29,750,000...and no affordable contract for the lost 2019 1st Rd pick.

Ouch...I wonder if the national media talking heads ever looked at that?

Still reaching at taking digs I see.

You have insults...I have names and examples...and now $$$. I respond to you because you throw out these statements - with absolutely zero support - as if they are gospel. I do that to people in 'real life' too.

What's your opinion on the moves? Not a statement of someone else's opinion...your opinion?

I'm going to go put on my 'Pit Started it' T-Shirt...I simply Myles Garrett'ed you.

Living in your head for free would be a nice benefit if the neighborhood wasn't so crappy.

And still, even the vast majority of our own posters ALONG with the national media disagrees with you.

But keep responding to me and taking digs. I'll keep getting on your nerves. It's easy to do and sort of fun at this point.

Now you're going to dedicate a T-shirt to me? Aweee, how sweet of you!

Calling the media "experts" does more harm than good for any argument.

I feel like the image wouldn't be one person smacking the other over the head with a helmet... based on your names I'd venture it would like someone sticking a wet finger in the ear of an annoyed pit bull.

At least that's how I'd draw it up and sell it...

Yes, former NFL HC's, GM's and players are far less experts than a hand full of "wish we had some cred" posters on a message board.

I was wondering how long you could resist jumping into this.



You held out longer than I thought you would actually. Kudos!

As long as it would picture the Pit Bull taking a bite out of your ass when you stuck your wet finger in its ear you may not be too far off.

That's your comparison, not mine.

Simply using "media as experts" because you cannot form a legitimate opinion on your own, is mine.

I have plainly stated earlier they were former NFL coaches, GM's and players. Everyone of course already knows this that have been paying attention. You want to blow that off while you guys try to quote some Twitter hacks on here.

Yeah, you guys think you are better than people who ran NFL teams, coached NFL teams and actually played the game. You play them off as "media". Some egos are too large for NFL stadiums. Maybe that's the reason no NFL team has hired you yet.

Get that under control and maybe you'll have a future in the game.

I'd suggest not make up arguments that no one is making.

I whole heartedly disagree that Vernon played well when he was healthy. In fact, he only had one good game, and that was the game he got hurt IIRC.

He was very lackluster until then, and after.

I'll play Devil's Advocate with you. Like many things, there was some good and bad with Dorsey. I did not want to see him fired but also wasn't sad to see him go.

If Dorsey did such a great job, why was he not able to put a winning team on the field? The Browns had one of the highest cap figures in the league this year (they would have been over the cap without benefiting from cap space being rolled over from previous years), yet finished with a worse record than last year. In the last 3 games they got destroyed by Arizona and Baltimore, and then lost to the previously 1-14 Bengals.

Many of his moves were lateral moves at best. You can't say he didn't have the resources because he was left with a huge bounty of draft picks and cap space. There were good players on the team from the previous regime. Many are still productive players in the league today.

If you blame the QB.. Dorsey had the #1 overall pick in a deep QB class.

If you blame the coach.. Dorsey overruled everybody else in the building, throwing his weight around to get Freddie Kitchens instead of Kevin Stefanski.

If you blame the owner.. Haslam did what most of us wanted to do, he hired the football guy (Dorsey) and gave him the keys to the franchise.

If you blame him not having enough time.. that is actually a fair point. I wish picking a coach wasn't such a sticking point for Dorsey. He clearly muffed that last time and could have rebuilt his reputation while continuing to build the team.

I'd note that he's also on record for brining Hue back for that third season (??), though I still believe that was mainly Haslam and any GM that was to get the job had to go along with it, stated or otherwise.

I guess it depends on what you define as a "team".

The general consensus going in to the season and through out the season was that there was enough talent on the team (as defined as the roster) to have won more games.

So in that sense I think he did build one.

Do you mean team in the sense of when Freddie talked about the group becoming a "team"? If so, isn't that more in the purview of the coaches job? One would hope the GM wouldn't build a roster of incompatible personalities, but I'd think the team dynamic is largely the responsibility of the HC.

And in that sense I don't think it was his job to.

Sorry, but you get that big toothy,goofy pitty smile. I'll have no part in reinforcing negative dog breed stereotypes

Not that I want it to happen, but I do wonder sometimes how Hue would do with this roster if he was just coming here for the first time?

Don't you dare go down that road!

I think the team dynamic is considerably more complex and is largely affected by the players themselves. You want players who are smart, coachable, "over themselves", and prepared/professional enough to learn the playbook, study film, etc. We are lacking in this category, and a big part of it was Dorsey prioritizing physical talent above all else.

Freddie was unprepared too. I just don't think you can put it all on him. Like the idea that Dorsey got him the players, so his hands are washed of the situation, is just not how I'd look at it. There's more interplay there.

Why did John Dorsey get fired in Kansas City (after drafting Patrick Mahomes)?

What do you call it when your own desires are greater than those of the team as a whole?

NFL experts on TV say John Dorsey has a huge ego.

edit: not even going down that road, lol

Just out of curiosity, are we talking Hue Jackson season #1 or Hue Jackson season #4?

I'm wondering if 2020 or even 2019 would have been Hue season #1.

I agree with your characteristics, but I'm not so sure I agree with the highlighted part.

I think Dorsey is not above taking risks and flyers on players with character "issues". OBJ, Callaway, Hunt....

OBJ is OBJ. I wasn't thrilled with some of the shoe stuff, and would have preferred he was at the voluntary off season stuff, but when it came to the behavior problems on field, I don't think he was even close to the biggest one.

Hunt, once given the opportunity to hit the field, had a fantastic outlook and work ethic.

Callaway... Callaway I think was mentally weak in the mold of Josh Gordon, BUT I also think that Callaway responded to discipline and structure much more than Gordon ever did. I don't think it's coincidence that after more than a year he finally pops on a test while being part of a team as undisciplined as ours was.

Past that? Do you have an example or two in mind of talent over all else?

Overall, John gets a solid C+.


Sorry the Freddie hire knocks him down a full grade.

John has a top eye for talent and is a good wheeler dealer, but he is poor at selecting a head coach and apparently sort of a ass to work with.


He could still be here if his pride didn't get in the way.


No way the Haslams could give him unfettered call over the next head coach. That was total disaster.

The draft(s)...our Super Bowl for the last 20 years. Let's take a look.

2018

Rd 1 - Baker and Ward
No complaints here. Both guys "looked" better in '18 than '19. Solid choices...even in hindsight. Interesting that BOTH guys got worse coaching in year 2 and the schemes deployed didn't fit their skillsets all that well.

Rd 2 - Corbett and Chubb
One reach who bombed and one could-have-been-considered reach who is in the top echelon at his position. The Corbett eval at draft day and thereafter was poor. The drafting of Chubb was a great move and brought tremendous value. My only issue is that he chose Corbett before Chubb.

Rd 3 - C Thomas
Who? I recollect this being a 'bone' thrown to Highsmith and he's all about The U. He was mia in '18 and contributed in '19. But for the 3rd pick in the 3rd Rd he was/is disappointing.

Rd 4 - Callaway
High reward...medium risk. No issue here.

Rd 5 - Avery
Looked like a diamond-in-the-rough in '18. Stuck between a DE and LB...probably just a situational pass rusher and ST guy. The kind of middle-class guy every successful team has...punted for a 4th in 2021.

Rd 6 - D Ratley
Decent value here. He's a big target, fast. It'll likely be another year or two before he "shines" - if ever - but that's what you get from 6th Rders if you are lucky.

Rd 7 - S Thomas
7th Rd flyer...I think he's with Seattle now.

Overall pretty good. If Corbet wasn't a bust and C Thomas contributed better, this would have the makings of a pretty good draft. When you have (5) of the first (67) picks, you should do well...and he did...for the most part.