DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Evaluating John Dorsey as CLE GM

That's pretty obvious, no?

Not at all.

You have two picks with the next three. You feel confident you can draft both of the players you have targeted with those two picks.

At that point there's no need to decide between the two picks because you'll get them both.

Try again.

Let's talk John Dorsey...talk in a deeper voice and extend your lips as far away from your teeth as possible the whole time while talking...

I am Johoon Dooorseeey. I Uuummm, Ahhh yoor foooball guy.. Heeee

Dude. What?

He drafts player A before player B, but if he only has one pick he's drafting player B?

Silliest thing I ever heard.

Wasn't given enough time.

Thankfully. Otherwise, we'd have Freddie Kitchens entering his 2nd as our HC.

Maybe, maybe not, we will never know.

I know a couple of you wish to make everything with me some sort of argument, but let me show you just how silly of an assumption you are making.

Let's actually look at that draft. We had picks 33 and 35. The only pick between our two picks were the Giants. The Giants had just chosen Saquon Barkley with the #2 overall pick in the draft in round 1.

There was ZERO chance they would select Chubb. Zero. Austin Corbett certainly turned out to be a terrible pick for us. But the Giants did need some help on the OL and had zero chance of selecting a RB in round 2.

So common sense dictates that if you pick Chubb at #33, there is a chance you miss out on your OL pick at #35. However, if you pick your OL pick at #33, it's a 100% chance Chubb will be there at #35.

Now if you only have the #33 pick, at that point you have to choose which of those two to select. That's where you nor I have any idea which selection Dorsey would have made. Neither would have been around by our round three selection.

I know some find it hard to comprehend, but there's actually a strategy to drafting players in regards to when and where. To insure he got both his intended targets, he did it exactly the right way.

And if he had to choose between the two players, you have no idea which he would have selected. If you think you do, then you honestly believe the needs of the other team between those two picks has nothing to do with draft strategy.

That would be a mistake on your part.

Imagine for a second we end up drafting the player the Giants want at 34. Tampa Bay is in dire need of a RB and they also know we most likely want one. Tampa has Chubb rated #1 on their board and really want him. They've already offered to swap picks and give an additional pick because they really want Chubb to be their RB.

Giants say ok to the trade since we drafted the player they wanted and Tampa takes Chubb at 34. Now we have Corbett and Chubb is off the board, so who do we draft now that you assumed 100% Chubb would be there?

That would be a mistake on your part.

I think it's obvious we valued Corbett more than Chubb.

What are you going to tell me next? Lemme guess, "we should draft Barkley @1 and the best available quarterback @4."

That is a completely ridiculous claim. That was a "smartest guy in the world" pick.

The strategies that might play out in the top third of the first round are drastically different by the start of the second round.

Either Corbett was higher than Chubb on JD's draft chart OR he somehow panicked after a night to consider his draft board and overrode the work done in the lead-up to the draft and flexed his muscles. Either way...it was a busted pick.

I'm football guy and I pick football players, got to get real players like I traded good/great guard for edge rusher....ugh, except he's hurt and a dud....and no worries cuz our line is number 2....just plug my 2nd rnd draft pick in there.....Bottom line, our expert turned a strength into a weakness and did not help D....ain't I great.....like Butch how KNEW run Willie run was the man....dope head.....got to luv our experts....GO Browns!!!!

j/c

I'm surprised Tyrod Taylor hasn't come up in this discussion. #65 overall pick and $16 million cap space for 2.5 games of lousy QB play.

That and the differing styles of QB between starter and backup that never makes sense when NFL teams do it. Like we trade for Taylor, who was running Greg Roman's zone-read based scheme in Buffalo, then draft Baker #1 overall who would never run such a scheme. It just doesn't make sense.. an example of collecting talent, not building a team.

Ah, so you come up with a make believe trade scenario to try and defy logic.

I agree.

If anything, just look at history. I could see a trade down depending on who is there and who is buying.

All year long we have been looking for Dorsey players. Now with Stefanski and whoever is going to be GM, an entirely different criteria might be used.

I read a piece saying we will punt this draft. I don't think we do that because there are winning expectations, but I could see us move back a time of two to gain for next year. I think that is always going to be a part of the draft strategy to some extent. Maybe an every other year deal. Move back one year to gain picks, then trade up the following to get better players.

That said, I hope we don't move back out of 10 very far, if at all. There are some good OT's who can step in a play. Unless we sign a couple of good linemen in FA, we have to come away with a OL starter in the draft. That may sound like needs drafting, but this year I don't think it is..I think needs and BPA match-up nicely this year.

I have no clue what they're going to do. I certainly think there are variables in terms of if your building a winning team or stock piling drafts for the future.

I'm in a wait and see game and not trying to come to any foregone conclusions either way.

I agree EO. I don't think the situations are similar between now and when Sashi and crew took over. The plan then was to take it apart.

That isn't the plan here. We are going to see some roster turnover, but probably no more then had Dorsey stuck around.

I am sure Stefanski and whoever will be very pleased with our skill players. It basically boils down to the OL. They aren't going to like some of that.

TE....I am telling you, Carelson….I think he can be our stud. Read up on him.

As for D, well, that needs some work. Overall it needs more fixing then does the O.

I honestly don't think Dorsey will get another shot as GM. Some desperate team might try him out, but he will fail again.

I believe we are about to embark on year 5 of the original plan.

This wasn't the expected route and we should have had more success by now, but I think we're finally about to get it right.

Of little use now. I thank Dorsey for a lot of good. I regret the ways that some things shook out.
But I will respect his hard work and improvements we made. FK lowered the bar in hindsight with little improvement or adjustment. Tough outcomes, but I won't write this off as a total loss.
And if some of these folks perform closer to expectations under this coach, I think Dorsey deserves some credit however grudgingly.

We could be in year two of Stefanski had things played out differently.

We could be in year 3 of Vrabel had things played out differently.

We could be in year 4 of McDermott had things played out differently.

It could be year 30 of Belichick...

Nahhh .. Belichick would have left with the Ravens .. and we'd still have Palmer.

Interesting thought...the detour in FO and this years coaching change probably throws that back a year or so.

Also, John went to building the Browns the same as he did in KC. All in on O with D seeming to be a secondary thought.

We do have a lot of work on D. It could be argued that each position group need multiple upgrades.

Build the 'D' with the idea of containing Lamar Jackson & Co. Are we missing Jabril Peppers?

I mean there's no doubt Dorsey brought in talented players. He also got rid of talented players. I have no problem with the players Dorsey brought in, but he had no direction and he ruled with an iron fist. You can't run a team thay way. It's also why he was fired from KC. Maybe he'll change and be successful, but he'll never win the way he operated as GM with KC and Cleveland.

The Chiefs were 43 and 21 in his time as GM there.

Andy Reid was 43 and 21.

So was John Dorsey.

Dorsey was a good GM. He just made one bad trade in going after vernon. I said at the beginning of the year it would hurt the team and it did. All this team really needs from this draft and off season trading is the best offensive line they can get. IF they just manage that then this team could do well next season.

They certainly are in need of a Safety and you could argue TE as well.

It doesn't defy logic. Any team can trade up between picks and get the guy you want, so you take the higher rated player and then deal with it if your other guy isn't there. We wanted Mahomes at 12 and KC traded up from 27 I believe and took him at 10. It happens. But to say that we would have taken Chubb at 32 if we didn't have 34 defies logic. Either way, we got Chubb and he's been great, but I think the evidence strongly points at Dorsey rating Corbett higher than Chubb.

The Giants took Barley at #2. They weren't going to pick another RB at #33.

Your example is trading up for a franchise QB, not a second round RB.

It's obvious draft strategy isn't your strong suit.

Not to enter the debate, but teams can trade up. Chubb could have been a trade up target. Either way there is no telling, You both have valid arguments, so call it a draw and walk on.

It doesn't matter. You guys are in argument over things that didn't happen.


As for John, he made more that one mistake. Vernon wasn't the only.

His biggest was promoting Freddy to head coach. I don't blame Fred, I blame John.

Oh the irony.

Agree. I think people are looking at Dorsey's move with the thought that Baker is still the Baker we saw year 1. Hes not. Ward is always hurt. Ill give him a pass on his play last year at times, since he was playing in zone a lot and is a man guy.

But if Baker has another bad year, and if ward cant stay healthy - then King John looks like the biggest case of fools gold on earth.

If baker is the baker we all thought and hope, and ward can stay on the field, then Dorsey is the guy we thought he was, or at least somewhere in between.

We shall see. Time always tells.