DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Highsmith and Wolf Are Out

Oh I certainly plan to give it a chance. What I'm not going to do is play make believe while farting flowers and rainbows and only consider one side of the coin like you and some others are doing.

There are two sides to this coin and pretending there isn't like some of you are doing isn't reality. There's just as much if not more evidence to believe this may fail than there is this will succeed. I'm not the one in denial of that.

What actually happened and what you believe happened are two different things.

The exact same thing could be said about you. Acting as though a HC who has never been a HC and a GM who has never been a GM is some magic formula to success isn't exactly a sound theory to rest your opinion on.

Could it happen? Sure it could. But acting as though anyone who questions that and trying to act as though they don't have some valid points and concerns to make is a pretty silly stand to take.

Forgetting the past four second, I never said this couldn't fail.

There's one x-factor here that could tear this whole thing down in the blink of an eye.

But unlike most here, I believe this is a "new" Jimmy. I'm not going to act like he pulled people out of thin air to run his team.

This was a very methodical approach and I get people don't like Depodesta, but the hires that recently took place are the best hires we've had under Jimmy.

Alignment and being on the same page doesn't always work, but acting like this is just Jimmy being Jimmy is wrong in my mind.

We've gone through a lot to be where we are right now. If I was all doom and gloom like a lot of posters here I wouldn't be here. Some people are convinced this will fail, why are you here?

The only thing I've ever hitched my wagon to is Baker. If I'm wrong about him so be it. I will follow Baker to wherever he goes if we move on from him. I don't think we're going to find a better quarterback.

1. You never said FO, you said powers that be.

2. He could have never left and it wouldn't make your contamination malarkey any more accurate.

3. Mayhew was made GM in Detroit after the 0-16 season. He was given that much power. He lasted 6 years which is more than our past several GMs can say. He led the lowly Lions to a 10 win season under his watch. He's now part of an organization in the Super Bowl whose GM had less front office experience than Berry when hired.

I understand you have "your beliefs". And everyone I'm sure has their own. On a personal note I have history and evidence showing me how Haslam has operated and his decision making up to this point.

Could this be "the magic moment" where he's changes? It could be. But putting faith that suddenly everything has taken a complete 180 isn't something that seems logical to many people.

And it's not actually about disliking Depodesta. It's about the fact that both He and Berry were at some level a part of the worst stretch of football in NFL history. Now we can sit here and debate about how much influence they had in that catastrophe. At what level their contribution was to that epic collapse. But what can't be denied is that they were ingredients in that recipe. So while many try and dismiss that, to act as though that should be dismissed and should not be an obvious concern I find to be very disingenuous.

Getting back to Haslam. This isn't the first time we've been last in line to make hires. It isn't the first time some have taken their name out of the running. Each time that has happened we've heard excuses made for it. Shanahan even gave a power point presentation why he wanted out. People mocked him and degraded him. Discounted his talent. He will be the HC leading San Fran in the SB this Sunday. There were very few of us then who saw how good of a coach he was and saw this as a strong signal for the dysfunction that Haslam has brought.

See, I view Cinderella as a fable. Much the way I view magic fairy dust. There is a wealth of evidence of the decisions Haslam has made in the hiring process since his arrival.

The fact is we elevated men at both the HC and GM position who are both new at their respective positions. No matter how you slice that, it's an experiment. One of those men was at least some part of our most epic collapse. So was Depo. At some point people need to admit that those who feel like the more things change, the more they stay the same, aren't simply pulling that out of left field.

Could it be that this is a turning point in the right direction? Yes it could be. But the evidence some are giving to try to use in order to bolster that belief is flimsy at best. At some point people should understand that a lot of us weigh the evidence and at this point the evidence regarding Haslam isn't good.

I'm not going to believe that suddenly the slipper found at the ball is going to fit his foot.

I don't see how this time around we're getting a 'new' Jimmy. If anything, 'new' Jimmy happened when Dorsey was around. He was visibly not as involved. Now, he's going to be in coaches meetings.

It's wonderful how people try and use an anomaly as evidence. Yet Mayhew was not a part of the most epic collapse in NFL history. The exception to the rule is always used when trying to bolster a weak point of view.

You act like Berry had no role in the team having the worst record in the NFL while he was here. I guess he got paid to do nothing? Just like Depo did?

Can this work? Yes it can. But you know that you gave an example that has rarely ever worked. Why don't you try and compare that with the times it's failed?

I didn't think so....

I'm normally not a doom and gloom kind of guy. In fact, through most of my time here, I've found myself often agreeing with you on a wide variety of football topics.

However, in this case, I can't help but think we have a three-headed monster (not in a good way) of Haslam, DePo, and Berry. The funny thing is, I'm actually a math/science guy and probably understand analytics better than most, but the way DePo has inserted himself into the weekly operations (where for example, Stefanski has to turn his gameplans into DePo) is dubious. Jimmy has no idea what he's doing. Berry was part of the personnel team that put together 1-31. I know there are strong mitigating factors there (Hue, and accumulating assets) but there was still this draft: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/2016_draft.htm

That was 14 draft picks, 13 of which were in the first 5 rounds. That's a lot of draft capital, to use that fancy new term, in order to get Schobert and maybe a couple contributors on other teams (Ogbah.)

2017 wasn't all that much better outside of Garrett.. and landing Garrett was really more about NFL rules and giving the worst team the first pick. If you can't find an impact non-QB positional player at #1 overall...

I just think this is going to end poorly, one way or another. Maybe Berry turns out to be a front office superstar, or Stefanski as a coach, or Mayfield turns into a transcendent QB that can overcome other problems in the organization. We'll see.

As is, don't be surprised if this alignment only lasts two years or less.. that's been the Browns M.O. since Haslam has owned the team.

I post because I've been a Browns fan as long as I can remember. It still boggles my mind what they are doing though. It's like we're the training ground for NFL ideas. Just throw whatever insane idea or setup against the (Browns) wall and see what sticks. We need a different approach.

Haus, this is incorrect and was put to bed by Stefanski in his introductory press conference. There is no requirement that Stefanski submits his gameplan to DePo.

On a side note, I would absolutely hope that Stefanski consults with the analytics department to review stregths and weakness of not only their opponents, but themesleves.

We saw what a complete disaster Freddie was (courtesy of Warren Sharp's data) as he continuously ignored the data that would have supported a team effort to succeed, i.e., personnel groupings, etc.

People will always come to their own conclusions.

For me, I refuse to believe that Jimmy likes to lose and loves firing people. Which seems to be the picture most want to paint. I think he sucks at finding and hiring the right people, which is why he was reliant on someone else to help lead his search.

You are saying because Jimmy has quickly fired a bunch of people in the past that the odds are high he'll fire these guys soon as well. I'm always trying to find out why. Why were these people fired? I believe it plays a role. A rather large role. And these guys odds of being fired quickly is much lower than you believe.

There are no other examples to compare to. 0-16 has only happened twice.

You started this whole business with your bad rotten apples analogy.

There is no rotten apples rule. It's some BS you made up. I'm not finding the "only exception" because your claim doesn't have any evidence.

I'm not acting like Berry had no role. I think he did his job well, but he had no decision making power. That's why he was wanted elsewhere. You're the one holding someone else's decisions against him.

Depo wasn't making decisions, either. They were both providing information that Hue, and later Dorsey, didn't heed. (Perhaps Sashi, too.)

Jimmy's not the brightest, but if the information they were providing had proven bad, he's smart enough to get rid of them (and has shown a willingness).

Based off what? ... seriously ... based off what? ...

something u read .... something u heard .... or is it simply WISHFUL THINKING cause u had no clue what it was he did ....

Sorry to pick on U ... there’s a bunch of dawgs running around acting like they know things they don’t ... my man Peen is leading the pack in that regards ... and as far as i can tell its 100% WISHFUL THINKING ....

The things we actually know about Berry are few and far between .... here’s what we know for sure ...

- about 10 or so overall years in the business”
- came here at 28 ..- was a part of a disaster here ...
- went to Phili for a year ...
- he’s back here now ...

That’s really it ...

He’s young and he’s moved up the chain EXTREMELY QUICKLY ... is that good or bad ... like most things in life ... prolly both ...

Now ... Ill wait to see what your basing your opinion that he did a good job here ...

Again ... sorry i picked on U ... it could easily have been Peen ...

Based on the fact that other teams were eager to hire (he signed with the Eagles) him and we were eager to bring him back. Bringing back a guy who you think didn't do his job well makes no sense.

While I think Jimmy has made bad decisions, I don't think he's dumb. Even if it turns out he is, it seems like he's listening to Depo this time who I'm confident isn't that big of an idiot.

Okay, maybe one sucked a little less than the other. That doesn't mean they didn't both suck. Is that better for you?



Yeah, Sashi didn't listen to anyone around him. The other two had no input. They are 100% innocent and resolved of everything that happened here during the 1-31 period. Mmmmmm hmmmm....



You mean like getting rid of Berry last year only to bring him back this year?

And something else you said which had to be something you made up.....

Nobody said Haslam "wanted to lose". That's just some made up BS you posted. Nobody "wants to, lose". There's just people who have no clue what it takes to win.

Now suddenly we are supposed to think that changed in an intstant.

But what else do we really have to go on, at this point? There is very little as far as solid evidence with which to judge the Berry hire. Everything is going to be either wishful thinking or doom and gloom. I think a select few people have really gone off the deep end, but those are easy to spot. :-p

My big question regarding Berry is his time here. Weren't those years run by The Consensus? I thought that was Sashi, Hue, and co. If so, by definition, Berry would have had a voice and it would've been heard. How that whole thing really worked (translation: it didn't) I don't know. There doesn't seem to be any accountability for draft and FA misses, of which there were many.

Yes, the entire "everyone reports to Haslam" method has been tried before with dreaedful results.

Thanks for the reply .....

I’m on board with your first point ... who were the other teams interested in him? .... That’s not near enough for me ... especially in todays nfl ....

your 2nd point ... ..

I think the thief is an extremely intelligent person ... prolly smarter than me ... I also think he is an absolute moron when it comes to running a football team ... to this point he’s been the worst owner in the history of sports ..... and his history of hiring GM’s is also the WORST EVER .... but hey ... if u want to ignore that and claim he cant be that stupid more power to u ...

I’m sticking with wishful thinking ... *L* ....

Are you old enough to remember Nick Mileti?
He beats Haslam by a country mile...

I’m 60 .... never heard of dude ... who’d he own and for how long? ...

A country mile .... that’s not possible ... *L* ...

Founded/Owned the Cavs, Crusaders, Barons, Partial owner Indians, Cleveland Arena and the Coliseum and some Las Vegas Posse team. CFL I think...

Lousy man, worse owner.

Some will talk him up and maybe did do few ok things but always maneuvered people into spending the majority of THEIR money to operate things.

If your first made up argument didn't work, make up another, I see. Then claim I said things I didn't. I remember why I stopped responding to you in particular and bothering to post on the boards at all there for awhile.

I'm tempted to break out the scarecrow/straw man gif, but apparently that's frowned upon.

I admit there is no guarantee on how he'll do at his new job, but your constant unsubstantiated attacks on how he did his old job are tiresome. Empty guilt by association claims don't make sense to me. I can't figure out your agenda. In the context of the old Sashi/Dorsey/Hue wars I kind of get it. From the context of moving forward, it just looks like you're doubling down on a played out argument that doesn't matter any more when you don't know anything that Berry (who worked for/with all of them) has actually done.

Read my post again. I admitted he could be that dumb.

As for other teams, I've found mention of the Panthers (link)

That's not the reference I was remembering. Still trying to track it down.

Edit- maybe this tweet by Dustin Fox ( link ) mixed with other stuff in my head. I was thinking other specific teams were mentioned. Still looking.

Just for clarification, I've never guaranteed he'll be good at his new job. People implying, or outright saying, he was bad at his old job seems made up, though.

Maybe it's just too simple for you.

Out of the top three in the front office during our 1-31 record, two out of those three are once again in powerful positions in the FO.

Everything you are trying to use in order to deflect from that won't change it. Trying to act like they didn't have some important input and influence into the decisions made during that period make zero sense.

I mean it's a convenient tool to try and turn the attention away from that and try to focus on me, but that won't change it.

So he stunk in all sports ... *L* ...

And you have ZERO idea as to how much influence they had then...nor how much influence they have now. You cannot even say what they contributed to those losses

Anything you have is a GUESS.


to generally everyone:

0-16 | 1-31 was not the result of 2 or 3 guys. There are 53 men in the locker room that had to do with it. There were coaches that had something to do with it. There were FO people that had something to do with it...It wasn't 2 or 3 guys.

So what is the point of all this bickering? It is irrelevant and there is NO power in it. Nothing will come of it. Jimmy Haslam is not going to come on to the board and say Oh wow. PitDAWG or MilkMan...(or whoever) is right...Let me fire all the guys I have and lets start over again...lets follow their plan.

Everyone's argument in this thread is full of conjecture.

Here are the FACTS:
Highsmith disagreed philosophically with the new regime. They mutually parted ways. Same with Dorsey. And eventually same with Elliott Wolf (whom the Browns did try to keep) All three did good things, and all three failed at things. We don't KNOW the extent analytics plays in the organization. We just know it is more than those three were comfortable with. Here is another thing. We don't KNOW what level of disdain the three had with analytics or if it is just certain analytics or what. All we do know is that Ron Wolf...with no affiliation to Cleveland, blasts an organization that just released his son after only 2 years....Oh and we know he is completely Old School...you think he has an ax to grind???

Another Fact. Berry is and has been highly regarded in the NFL starting when he was a scout. That has been widely documented.

Sashi takes a big beating here....maybe he should....maybe he shouldn't...I mean we were 1-31 and John Dorsey was available...seems logical to me....Even though the job was to tear down the team and increase draft capital....which he did. I don't think anyone expected or wanted 1-31...Who is to say what their draft plans were now that they had the money to spend...And who among you knows exactly what happened behind the closed doors of Berea.

This has been an organization of disfunction...Conflicting plans, conflicting ideas, poor communication. Jimmy may have been a little fast on the firing button...but were any of those firings really a bad call?

Look I don't know if all this "alignment" talk is going to work...I do know it is something any organization should strive for. I do know that analytics has a place in football. Who of us TRULY knows how we are going to use it?

So what is this bickering all about? Is it that important for you to be "right"??? Well guess what....in this discussion NO ONE will ever be right because we don't know what happens.

The end of the line is, lets start acting like tough Brown's Fans (seriously...who else can take this much punishment and be back every year) and stop acting like whiny Pittsburg Fans...

I agree on his old job ... no one has no clue how good or bad he was ...m all we know is the results were beyond horrible .... but him being low on the totem pole he more than likely had very little input ...

Even if he did ... he was 28 when he came here .... a pup ... he put in 3 years here and 1 in Phili ... he’s still a pup but now he knows not to pee in the house ... *L* ... hopefully he learned what not to do under Sashi and learned from KJ and Roseman in Phili ...

No biggie on who else was interested ... it don’t matter ... it wouldn’t sway my opinion one way or the other ...

And my opinion is ... he made just as much sense as any of the other unknowns out there ... i think he’s still way to raw for this job but I’ve been wrong before ... *L* ...

I wish him and well and get used to hearing the Andy Griffith theme song ... no clue why but it just seems to fit here ... *L* ..

If the bolded part was what you had said earlier (it wasn't) and all you had said, I'd have had to agree. But, I'd have still asked, so what?

Berry was never the shot caller. Neither was Depo.

I agree they had input. How much that input was used you don't know or at least haven't shown any evidence.

You just keep making new stuff up and ignoring all the factual evidence and pointing at the team's record like that explains something.

It explains what the group as a whole generated. They were a part of the decision making group. Unless of course it is your contention they were paid extremely high salaries in NFL offices not to have input.

That's nothing made up. The funny part in all of this is, you were trying to deny they were actually a part of it. Now you openly admit they were a powerful part of the FO and say so what?

It seems to me, we were told when it all started, "We are going to lose. It won't be pretty. Do not expect anything for a while, but it will be worth it." So why in the world is eveyone so upset ? I'm far more upset about the Dorsey years than the Sashi ones, because we expected to win with Dorsey."

Well, that is good to know. I stand corrected.

I do think that Stefanski should consult with the analytics team to review strengths/weaknesses of their opponents, and themselves. That would be very nice, and indeed Freddie's personnel usage was maddening.

Guess we'll see what they can do.

You don't need to tell me there are two sides to the coin. How could a coin only have one side?

I am not in denial of anything. I know that all these guys could flop.

Maybe some of you are farting crap because you don't think it can work, or don't want it to work for some strange reason.

It's not that you or others disagree. It's the manner in which you disagree.

I liked Dorsey for the most part. He could still be here if he wanted, but no way Haslam could allow him to select the next head coach unchecked. But with some, it's Haslams fault, Depos powerplay, etc.

You talk to me about looking at both sides of the coin. How about talking to some of the people you agree with, people who have become unhinged about looking at the other side of the coin.

So was Dorseys. It is what it is.

Of course, Wolf and Highsmith are out. They were part of the Dorsey regime that brought us more talent in two years than all of the others combined since the return. We can't have bums like that in Cleveland. Heaven forbid. They might want to draft football players instead of athletes. No room for that kind of thinking. We need guys that know 40 times are more important than actually playing the game. They also might want to spend money in FA or make some trades to get us more talent and Analytics says never spend cap room on players other than fill-ins. Talent comes from the draft. Period. Dump big contracts and hoard cap space at all costs. Plan on seeing the Browns dump every big contract they can. OBJ and Landry... I don't see them here very long. MAYBE this coming season but it would not surprise me if they are gone by the start of camp. Remember how Sashi ran things? That was how things will be done again. Cut salary, amass a huge cap space and never spend it regardless of team talent. "Build through the draft" and draft according to the numbers not necessarily football talent.

Yeah? A team that Dorsey had a big hand in building is in the Super Bowl on Sunday. But football guys like Dorsey are bums and we should just let the Baseball guy run everything because he has HOW many rings? If Dorsey HAD to go the FIRST guy on my list to be the next GM would have been Elliot WOLF. He didn't even get an interview. We can't have guys like him around. He didn't go to Harvard and knows a little something about FOOTBALL. I am actually glad he's gone though... He has a chance to land somewhere that won't destroy his career. I think he will be a great GM somewhere that actually wants that. Good luck to both of you. Thank you for your hard work over the last two seasons. You helped to make this Browns team the most talented since the return and you did that in two years time! Bravo!

I don't disagree. I have already said I hoped he would stay, but losing records were brought up and it is what it is.

The FO that had all the ammunition that the previous regime collected for them brought in a bunch of talent with it? Incredible. He was able to hit on the first and fourth pick in the draft...we thought. Some of the shine has come off. He hit on Chubb. Other than that, 2018 looks like a nightmare:
Corbett-gone.
Chad Thomas-high 3rd rounder with meh (generously) production.
Callaway-gone.
Avery-gone.
Ratley-*shrug*
Simeon Thomas-gone
2019:
No 1st rounder
Greedy Williams-shows potential. Missed time with injury
Takitaki-3rd rounder that hardly saw the field until late in the season
Redwine-another underwhelming guy from Miami
Mack Wilson-Had a nice preseason then petered off
Seibert-Time will tell.
Forbes-went on IR
Donnie Lewis-not sure if he's still around or not

How did Dorsey's free agent decisions work out? When he didn't have a stacked deck? His coach choices?

He downgraded Fells to Harris.

Overpaid Hubbard.

Brought in Kush who he had to spend 2 future picks to replace during the season.

He did find a talented punter as a UDFA.

Swapped Zeitler for Vernon which seemed to kill Baker's mojo and Vernon was hurt most of the season.

The trade for Randall was good, better when he wasn't in the dog house.

I still have some optimism about the OBJ trade, but the season didn't make it the slam dunk we expected.

I'm probably missing something, but I'm not sure why so many people wanted to crown him.

Landry was a good if expensive trade. No complaints.

Lining them up side by side (mentally, formatting is a pain). So far Sashi and Dorsey look pretty close in bringing in talent through the draft. Neither overly impressive.

Dorsey got to pick his own coach and landed on Freddie.

Sashi never got to pick.

Except for you.