Highsmith is not "Analytics Guy"

Just wonderful.

Highsmith being gone does not surprise me. I thought Wolf may have had a chance to stick around.

I was hoping Highsmith and Wolfe would both stay

This is potentially very risky. I'm with you, I felt like Highsmith was already on the outs regardless of who would be hired but you lose two people that have been working, presumably, on player evalauations, prepping for the combine, draft, etc.

But so has Berry, just for the Eagles. So have the scouts. You're losing the executives/managers of the process.

I going to hope the scouts stick around through the draft and will assume they all know Berry from working with them before. Perhaps this says more about what Berry thought of Wolf and Highsmith than anything else? I wouldn't be suprised if a team would scoop them up pre-draft just like BB did with Lombardi.

But then again, DePo is staying and we all know he is the true GM here in Cleveland! I wonder if the Browns' draft war room will be held in San Diego come April?

j/c...

Interesting. I would not mind Wolf sticking around.

Perhaps he's butthurt that he's not a GM before Berry?

I have no qualms about them leaving. EVERYONE needs to be on the same page. If they have a different philosophy, then it's best they go. Different philosophies has been a staple here, hence the turnover and continuous losing.

I suppose the title of this thread should not include Elliot Wolf at this time.

Thanks, Chris Mortensen!

So much for the scouts staying huh?

Goodness - this is starting to go just like a lot of people anticipated.

So on top of being 32 year old GM, with no experience, having to deal with Kareem, Odell, egos, 1st year HC, pushy owner, starved fanbase, morbid history, 0 culture, having multiple coaching positions to fill, etc. Berry can add having to hire a start at square one with building a scouting department before the draft. . . .

Literally the director of Scouting just left. Lol

"my philosophy on football is different from theirs"

Subtext in my opinion: analytics wins out over football guys. Hope not.

Well we can't have anybody that has SB rings associated with their careers here mucking things up..

Nah, they'll be in Vegas. Depo likes to keep racking up those frequent flier miles.

If that makes you feel better inside.

Depo has a ton of power in the organization. He's the de facto whatever you want to call it. He has Haslam's ear. And while many have Haslam's ear, his voice seems to be the loudest. And since Haslam is the root cause of this steaming pile of mess we all root for, no amount of purple font will help change the reality of the situation. You have a first time GM, first time head coach, and a data guy all reporting to the worst owner in professional sports. Who the hell cares if they're on the same page. They're probably reading the wrong damn book.

There is nothing good about this situation. Alignment is some stupid buzz word the owner came up with so he could hire people that support his every whim. It's so dumb it's astonishing.

All Haslam needs to do is hire good, competent people, respect the chain of command and let them do their jobs. Honor the chain of command when soliciting feedback and get out of the way.

This is going to be a disaster.

You can rack up a lot of frequent flier miles commuting from San diego to Cleveland and back. Over 2000 miles each way.

Well the running theme is that even though Depo has been here since January of 2016, outlasting Sashi, Dorsey and is now headed into his third FO here...... and the fact he is one of only three people that report directly to Haslam along with the HC and GM.... that somehow he isn't an equal part of the latest three headed monster approach of running the Browns. Just ask them.....

I don't think he has day-to-day operational power, but I would definitely agree that in no way is his voice silenced now.

I think his situation is kinda like Shanny's was where he's a smart guy that understands things on a level others don't know is even there, and had a lot of "I told you so's" of how stupidly things were being done and as a result of that, he's just actually getting listened to now.


It's interesting watching this thing take shape, and it's funny to me to watch the "football guy" vs "analytics" debates raging; as if making decisions without as much information as you can gather is ever a good thing, or as if not having guys that can recognize real talent can't coexist with information. It will be interesting to watch how the team brings the two together, and which guys from the old guard are willing to embrace using new tools in their jobs.

There are a few things I'm certain of. People like Haslam don't keep people around that they don't trust and believe. He obviously trusted Depo more than Sashi. Sashi is gone and Depo is here. He obviously trusts Depo more than Dorsey. Depo is here and Dorsey is gone.

This will be the third regime which Depo has been kept. A voice Haslam obviously listens to and has continued to listen to since Jan. of 2016. He is one of the three voices Haslam will be listening to on the same level as both the GM and HC this year under the new system by having equal time in meetings with Haslam.

I'm not making some outlandish claim that Depo is going to be running things. But I'm also not going to act what I feel would be foolishly by pretending he isn't on the same footing as the GM and HC either.

Usually a scouts contract is through the draft. They aren't going anywhere, at least until after the draft. I doubt any quit. That wouldn't be very good for the resume.

I am shocked that the guys that were hired by the previous GM were not retained under a new GM.

You don't have a clue.

I seriously doubt the Browns are paying for him to get to work and back any more then they pay any other employee.

We were told for over a year by some fans that Andrew Berry wasn't a football guy. Will those same fans say the same thing for the next year+ that Berry still isn't a football guy?

Jake has that right.

LOL at the exploding heads.

IMO, Jake sounds like an idiot. That's a mediocre DawgTalkers-level hot take right there.

We went 1-31 with rosters that were precisely constructed and tuned to fail (in order to stockpile ammo to then bring in talent). We go from Kizer et al to Mayfield et al. We go from whoever we have at RB to Chubb and Hunt. We go from Corey Coleman et al to OBJ, Landry etc.

To turn around and say, "see, they didn't acquire talent" is a lot of things... none of which can be construed as intelligent, accurate, etc.

I'm not saying Dorsey was perfect. His selection of Kitchens was egregious, and that alone made him vulnerable to criticism. Some of his picks failed (Corbett). He let Avery walk for less than we used to get him.

But to turn around and say we didn't address talent is absurd. And to hear it from a reputable media person is really disheartening.

He also forgot the last part of that train of thought.

Between DePo having Haslam's ear and re-hiring Berry, we've replaced the previous regime with pieces from the one that put us in that talent quagmire to being with.

I don't have a clue, you said they will retain the scouts, yet the head of the college scouting department was just canned. . . . hmmmm

I didn't really get the point of the Jake Burns post either. It seems like he didn't think it through.

The Jake tweet sounds like it was born out of frustration.
I get tired of the hand-wringing from both sides... and I suppose I should stop adding to it. I'll take some accountability for that.

There are just some things that make my blood boil (irrational and inconsequential as it may be).


I hope the new guys work out. I really do. I think I'm liking Stefanski. I'm not too enthused about bringing Berry back, but there were enough mitigating circumstances from his previous stint (and his previous stint is the entirety of why I don't like him) to at least give him an honest shot. Perhaps he was the "smartest guy in the room" and did have the balls like Shanny did to bust his way out. Who knows.
I'm at least giving each new hire the chance to prove that they belong in their positions.

I agree. No one was complaining about a lack of talent last year.

It was more general incompetence.

The point is we were "right there" and Dorsey failed. With everything he had to work with, he couldn't build a winning team and there are some people who think he did a good job.

I think, while painful, this is an important step in the process. You can't have a high level executive be around and not be on the same page as his bosses. In the past we have kept around people when we probably shouldn't have. For example, we probably should have fired Paul DePodesta when we hired John Dorsey. We didn't and it created divisions in the organization. Get everyone on the same page.

He chose the wrong coach and sounds like wasn't exactly respectful of those he worked with.

A different coach and he's probably still here.

Or the same coach that we currently have.

I'm a little surprised about these guys being gone..

You should not be surprised.

Sashi,Depo and Berry led us to 1-31.And there are some people(Haslam is one)that think they did a good job.

The space bar is your friend.

You forgot Hue.

Actually none of us do including you. This could be a great thing or a failure of epic proportions.

To act as if there isn't two sides to this coin and it could land either way is preposterous.

He did a good job in certain areas, and an awful, fireable job in one particular area.

But because of his HC hire, he's also a terrible talent evaluator, which I think is ridiculous (at least, that's how I read some of the opinions on here). And those same people are lauding the re-arrival of someone that had a part in overseeing the construction of the record-settingly terrible roster we had when Dorsey took over.

At least you're honest, Alonzo. But we all know nobody on this ship is a "title guy."

I've been to the space bar,way too fancy and not my crowd.

Really? When I was younger I traveled a lot for work. I always had an allowance for travel expenses and per diem. Besides, I never said anything about that.

I think people might be quick-reading over the word "fix" in that quote. Jake isn't claiming that JD didn't do anything of value...it means he botched a lot of assets because he didn't do enough with those assets...and Jake is right.

Just to be clear, I think John Dorsey is a good talent evaluator (although somewhat overrated). I also think the reason was fired because he was not open to new ideas and lacked interpersonal skills.

I am happy about Andrew Berry being hired because I think it gives the team to be on the same page for the first time in a long time and because I think data should be used more in almost every aspect of life and that includes football. More information is better than less information.

j/c...

Lol...

HUE! Hue led us to 1-31. HUE! HUE! HUE!

Why is this so hard?

No comment.

Quite possibly. But we were destined to fail with Dorsey as GM. We should all be grateful Haslam pulled the plug.

Because it was a group effort.

Except at the tackle spots, and RG, and along the DLine, and Linebacker, and Safety, and even TE or that we didn't have a FB, or that the talent we did get wasn't performing.

Haslam is clueless. This is the main reason why the Browns continue to suck. Yes, it is that easy to explain.

We don't need him now. That position is more administrative. He is over the scouts. I would suspect either Berry is going to hire someone or he may take on that role for the time being.

From what I understand many of the scouts on staff were hired by Berry the last time he was here. Most of them are probably already back in the building, filing their last reports from bowl season. Now they prepare for the combine.

It's not like we don't have scouts and don't have the information they have gathered in house. Also, it not like Berry is totally void of what the Eagles scouts were saying about players.

Calm down, it will be ok...really.

I agree. That was his big mistake. I think he would still be here had he accepted that Haslam wasn't going to allow him to be the only voice on hiring the next coach.

I don't doubt, actually, that this is really a part of it, but I don't think it is as derogatory as people make it out to be. I don't know that "clueless" is the right word, but it definitely isn't his area of expertise which means he has to find people to lean on in order to build this and put the right people in the right place.... and as we saw all too clearly with The Walrus, listening to and trusting the wrong person can set you back years. In business, you get 90-day reviews and can see how people are working out by the 6-month mark. It doesn't flow that way in football unless they're REALLY bad.... you gotta wait for the next season to see how things roll. It all just takes more time and you're a slave to the annual NFL schedule in evaluating your people.

IF listening to DePo proves to be the sound bit of advice he's been missing along with *FINALLY* getting universal buy-in all around on what we're doing during the actual setup of things, then we could well *FINALLY* be starting down the correct path.
The part that sucks is above: we're slaved to the NFL's annual schedule, so we won't know the answers to any of this for months upon months, and if things go awry yet again, part of the pain will be for him, and Dee, and whomever else, to find out Who, What, Where, Why, and How it all went wrong and then HOPEFULLY get it right the next time.


"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."
-- Will Rogers

"Experience is that thing you get right after you needed it."
-- Steven Wright

That is different if your company is sending you to do a job. Depo chooses to live in SD because of his business, thus he chooses to pay when he is required in Cleveland.

I brought it up because you have referenced frequent flyer miles several times. If I read too much in to it, my bad, but it read like you have some sort of problem with that. I mean, why would you care?

J/C .....Most teams don't carry a FB on their roster, often preferring an extra TE. We lost our starting TE at the start of the tear, and for some reason, didn't play him when he returned from IR.

At S .... how many did we go through? It was a lot.

At LB, we counted on Kirksey, and again he got hurt. We did draft a pair of LB, but they were not really ready to be full time contributors. They might develop, or they might just as easily be gone in the coming purge. (version 9.3, or something)

The OL was a mess. Dorsey was almost certainly counting on having Corbett step in there, but he proved to be completely incapable of taking the job.

I cannot agree that the talent we got was not performing. Landry had a career year last year. Our CB depth was outstanding when both Ward and Greedy were hurt. Even our S depth was decent .... even when we were down to starting a guy signed off the street.

This team was awful for 2 straight years. The team had a ton of holes. Did Dorsey fill them all in his 2 seasons as GM? No. Could he have? Maybe if he had a legitimate magic wand. He plugged holes with the best players he could acquire, that fit the scheme, cost, and budget.

I am curious to see what happens to the roster this off-season. I suspect it won't be pretty, and we'll be looking at less than 5 wins in 2020.

I highly doubt that depo would have negotiated his travel into his contract. If he didn't, I would feel a lot worse about him than I already do.

Frequent flier miles are just a rewards program you recieve that is based on the amount of miles you fly.



I just have fun with it. The guy will be having meetings with Haslam weekly according to the reports from the team. Yet he lives in San Diego. That would require a round trip flight every week would it not?

For a numbers guy I wonder how he thinks that's an efficient use of time management?

I'm not questioning that there aren't reasons behind all of it; I'm just reciting things that people griped about with our talent all season long.

So much for the scouts staying huh?

Goodness - this is starting to go just like a lot of people anticipated.

So on top of being 32 year old GM, with no experience, having to deal with Kareem, Odell, egos, 1st year HC, pushy owner, starved fanbase, morbid history, 0 culture, having multiple coaching positions to fill, etc. Berry can add having to hire a start at square one with building a scouting department before the draft. . . . [/quote]




same as it ever was.... same as it ever was.... same as it ever was....

I think most of those complaints began as the injuries started mounting up and the losing continued. Before the season began, for the most part, people were raving about the talent and how we were playoff bound.

how quickly the mood changed.

A quick look back at the preseason prediction thread would point that out.

The main reason Haslam has been terrible is that he listened to "football guys" who told him he needed more "football guys." Unfortunately what he really needed was someone who was good at managing "football guys" which most "football guys" aren't because they are generally hyper-competitive and self important. We never had one team. We had dictators (often competing) with cowed subjects and a good bit of underground resistance.

spin away, but the only people who crowed about tearing the Browns to the studs were Depodesta and Sashi.

The Browns low point in franchise history, the 1-31 record, will forever be linked to the Moneyball boys and no one else.

The GM provides the talent, then it is up to the coach to try to develop a team with the talent provided.

Yet oddly enough, it's Depodesta who is still here going into the third regime change since he was hired. But let's not let facts get in the way.

Carry on.......

j/c...

Here is the scouting department that remains in place:

Mike Cetta - Director of Scouting
Dan Saganey - Director Pro Scouting
Glenn Cook - Assistant Director Scouting
Jimmy Noel - Assistant Director Pro Scouting
Adam Al-Khayyal - Scout
Zach Ayers - Scout
Colton Chapple - Scout
Sam DeLuca - Scout
Matt Donahoe - Scout
Gerald McCully - Scout
Max Paulus - Scout
Brad DeAngelis - Manager Football Information Systems
Scott DiBenedetto - Scouting Assistant
Tosan Eyetsemitan - Scouting Assistant
Branden Francis - Scouting Assistant
Tyler Hamblin - Scouting Assistant
Andrew Healy - Senior Strategist Player Personnel
Dave Giuliani - Senior Analyst Coaching and Personnel
Aditya Krishnan - Football Research Analyst
Dax Nollenberger - Scouting Assistant
Thomas Pack - Scouting Assistant
Michael Romanella - Scouting Assistant
Scott Skuteris - Scouting Assistant
Zach Wigmore - Scouting Assistant

Departed from the Personnel and Scouting Department:

Alonzo Highsmith - VP of Player Personnel

Steve Malin - Director of College Scouting (Dorsey guy)

Interesting, then why is Hue the one hawking tequilia at local grocery and liquor stores and willingly making a fool of himself on Cameo for $60?

There is a Giuliani on staff?!

I am deceased.

DEPODESTA is running this team...no one else.
Stafanski and Andy Berry are nothing but yes men for Depodessta.

Haslam is terrible because Haslam cant stick to a plan when it theres a few bumps. The problem with Haslam is he doesn't know what he wants - and is quick to change.

Im gonna let you in on a secret - the Data guys were on a course, we might have actually won had we stayed on it. Then, we went on another course (Dorsey), we may have won by staying on it. Now we are on another course (this new guys) and we will have to wait and see.

Hue and Freddie needed to go - ill give him that.

But he needed to stick either with the data guys. He didn't, he then needed to stick with Dorsey, he didn't. He now is back to the data guys - see a pattern?

What he needs is to give SOMEONE more than 5 min to build their vision. If at that time its not working - then you "blow it up".

Pit, I know what frequent flyer miles are. Really? I have enough for several trips to Hawaii....like 5-6.....maybe 12 to Paris. That's for the both of us.

I have a Cameo coming for you from Hue that says otherwise, Mac!

Then I have no idea where your confusion on the point was. I see you avoided the rest of my post.

He was with Hue Jackson, too!

Always got a chuckle out of this from when Giuliani came on board during the Hue Jackson era...

Guiliani is a relatively new name but he has been working diligently behind-the-scenes for Cleveland football.

“We give him projects. We give him projects, and we give him things to do. There is a lot of different information that he brings me. Some of it is really important and some of it, with my football expertise, I go a different way, but again, it is there. That is what I think is important. It is there for you to see it there and decipher through and make good decisions about the information that is given.”

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-brow...-guru-49966800/

Of course.

We need to bring Hue back as our QB coach.

*whisperer

it seems like the Browns FO doesn't want football guys around. I'm not feeling overly confident in this regime, I don't have a problem with Stefanski so much, but overall, getting rid of football guys and going with stat guys just doesn't seem like a good plan.

what if the stat guys happen to know and have played football at the collegiate level?

Nerd football!

Update II: Assistant GM Eliot Wolf is parting ways with the
@Browns
despite efforts today by new regime to persuade him to stay, per league sources.

https://twitter.com/mortreport/status/1222621435581095936

It's official, Wolf hates the nerds, too...

Frequent Flyer Miles. Hate to go off on a tangent her, but:

Good friend of mine WAS in the health care/paramedic training field. (training paramedics how to use a product) He'd fly, weekly, leaving Sunday afternoon or evening, sometimes Monday - come home Thursday or Friday. Flight, rental car, hotel, meals - all paid for by the company he worked for.

He's now in sales for the same company. Same deal with flights, rental, hotel, meals.

And we wonder why health care costs so much?

He even flew out to Denver to do training. Left here, via Detroit, flew to Denver. Drove to Colorado Springs to do the training.

His co worker, that lived in Col. Springs flew the same week from Denver to Detroit to do the same training for a suburb of Detroit.

And we wonder why health care and equipment is so expensive?

Okay, back to the topic at hand.

You found a Twitter guy who agrees with you!

I agree Hue was a garbage of a hire, but don't try to act like that regime was concerned with winning. They were not. 1-31 is exactly what they were trying to accomplish. The point was to garner as high and as many picks as they could, correct? Losing is a big part of accomplishing that.

Sounds like Eliot Wolf felt that same way Paton did. Could see what's going on and didn't want to be here.

Haslam/Browns spin when they do something that looks dumb. You can't believe anything that the Browns say these days.

Like every end of the year presser Jimmy has had...sorry
I lied to everyone, but we are going to rip the team up again...sorry.

I pretty much agree.



Agree



Disagree



Agree



Agreed



So basically he should have stuck with the "data guys" the whole time.

Unfortunately, impatient fans/football guys screamed loud enough to convince Haslam he had to change.

The "football guys" we've had have had trouble seeing the big picture. They saw themselves as the stars of the show. If they didn't instantly look good, something had to change. They made excuses. They threw people under buses. It was their way or you were ignored. Lots of lip service, little (or outright counterproductive) action. No matter the evidence to the contrary, they knew best, about everything. Especially the things they really knew nothing about, like "analytics." They didn't try to understand them or figure them out. They just ignored the data when they disagreed with it and threw it in the trash.

ultimately, what I am saying it goes before that - he should have stuck with a lot of guys.

Reminder:

Andrew Berry played football for four years at Harvard and worked as a scout for the Colts for seven years.

None of that matters once he is coined as an "analytics dude".

It is not.

So they did good!

Not a reply to you Fate.

Sorry but I don't get the guilt by association that seems to be going around.

The speculation about the role of Depo and the slander of Berry because he was here when Sashi was the GM.

Who knows what Berry's input was? I have not read a single account of Berry forcing a decision. The facts that he played college ball for four years and was a scout who moved up the ladder is relevant.

Stefanski/Berry/Depo could no doubt crash and burn.

But I don't think it is fair to assume that they will.

We have no idea how all this will translate to the product on the field.

Free agency and the draft are still yet to happen. Camp to follow.

I mean they deserve a chance to succeed or fail.

All this trash that these guys are garbage is BS.

I mean sour grapes from the past does not foretell the future.

Both Stefanski and Berry are more football oriented but it doesn't matter because they work for Jimma and Depodesta.

The best thing Berry could do is thank Depo for his analytics then do what he thinks is best for the Browns...

People argue that "analytics" is just a tool for the football people use to help them decide who the Browns should draft.

Just one problem with that sales pitch...Depodesta is listed just underneath Jimma and Dee as the President of the Browns.

Why would your analytics guy be listed as the team President?

Depodesta is the team president?

When did this happen?

When he got Dorsey fired!

Mac, great news, Berry is listed above DePo on the team website and DePo is NOT listed as team President!

Here's how it reads on the Browns official website:

Dee Haslam - Owner
Jimmy Haslam - Owner
JW Johnson - Executive Vice President, Owner
Whitney Haslam Johnson - Owner
Andrew Berry - Executive Vice President, Football Operations & General Manager
Paul DePodesta - Chief Strategy Officer

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/front-office-roster/

Jimmy is listed under Dee.... sounds like mac's angst is misdirected.

The thing is, this is the first time we've gone full "data guys."

Before they had a Hue Jackson-shaped "football guy" anchor, which they were against in the first place, dragging them down and trying to grab the wheel to take ill-advised shortcuts.

"Football guy" Dorsey got his "football guy" Freddie and it just failed spectacularly.

Unfortunately, our past football guys seem to have mainly got by on raw talent and aww shucks charm. Now we're moving into football guys who depended more on their brains and are willing to adapt. Guys who aren't intimidated by information and other perspectives.

We'll find out if we've got actual alignment, or Hue-Sashi/Kitchens-Monken alignment. I think this time there is a chance it is real. I'm waiting to see it before I swim towards "the Island," though.

More good news!

Start off with a false premise, reach a false conclusion.

Dorsey got Dorsey fired.

Dorsey's worst season while in charge is still 6 X better than Depodesta's best year, in charge.

The Browns current front office:

Depodesta, Haslem and Berry...

...has Whitney Haslam Johnson always been listed there? Or is that a new addition?

The GM/HC being seduced by the owners' daughter/wife would be a new way to fail and entirely in keeping with our anything that can go wrong will history.

Always liked Ron Wolf. Read his book. Has done wonderful things. I don't necessarily think that's what's happening here. Data isn't making decisions. Data assists those making the decision. I think we are closer to what he did in Green Bay more than he thinks. Maybe he's just upset for Elliot?

Analytics is infiltrating the fraternity.

That will happen when you decide on a 3 year plan and then give the new guy year 3 with a stockpile of assets.

Ron Wolf : Times are changing, Eliot. These nerds are a threat to our way of life.

Eliot Wolf : If they win the Homecoming Carnival, they'll be able to take over the Greek Council.

Ron Wolf : Yeah. And we'll be up to our asses in nerd <bleep>.

Haven't read this thread other than the title so there may be newer information but this is the most recent per cleveland.com. Most recent update was today at 2:42

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2020/01...determined.html

Browns part ways with personnel execs Alonzo Highsmith and Steve Malin; Eliot Wolf’s role to be determined
Updated 2:42 PM; Today 10:52 AM
Alonzo Highsmith of the Browns
Alonzo Highsmith is reportedly leaving the Browns front office after serving as VP of Player Personnel. (Branson Wright, The Plain Dealer)

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By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com
MIAMI, Fla. -- Andrew Berry’s impact is already being felt after only one day on the job.

The Browns and Vice President of Player Personnel Alonzo Highsmith have mutually agreed to part ways, Highsmith confirmed to cleveland.com. The Browns have also parted ways with Director of College scouting Steve Malin, a league source confirmed.

Dustin Fox of 92.3 The Fan first reported the news.

The Browns and assistant general manager Eliot Wolf are still determining his future with the club, a league source told cleveland.com. ESPN’s Chris Mortensen first reported that the Browns have also parted ways with Wolf, but later also said the two sides are still working through it.


Highsmith told ESPN’s Josina Anderson that he and the Browns parted ways because of philosophical differences.

"I wanted to go in a different direction because my philosophy on football is different from theirs,'' Highsmith said. "As far as football goes, I’ll just have to wait and see what happens. I love all parts of the game. I’ve never been a title guy. Working and contributing has always been my goal. So I do hope to return to the NFL.''

The moves come a day after new GM and Executive Vice President of Football Operations Berry officially signed his five-year contract with the Browns.

Highsmith and Wolf were the top two lieutenants of former Browns GM John Dorsey, who parted ways with the team Dec. 31 after declining to accept a demotion. They were both brought in from Green Bay, where they spent most of their NFL careers.

Highsmith, a former NFL running back, spent 19 years in Green Bay before coming to Cleveland in 2018, and Wolf spent 14 seasons there. Highsmith had a chance to join his alma mater, the University of Miami, as head of football operations, but that opportunity didn’t materialize.


Highsmith’s departure has been anticipated since Dorsey was let go, but Wolf has always had a chance of remaining with the club.

Dorsey and his top aides, particularly Highsmith, didn’t espouse the heavy emphasis on analytics to drive personnel decisions, led by Chief Strategy Officer Paul DePodesta. They were old-school, traditional scouts who rely on their football knowledge and not as much on statistics. It was a point of contention the entire time Dorsey was in the building.

It was also the reason Dorsey overhauled the Browns’ roster, dismantling most of the work done in Sashi Brown’s two years in charge. Only five of Brown’s 24 draft picks from 2016 and 2017 remain on the roster.

Imagine that, someone who knows a little something about FOOTBALL agrees with me.

Tell us again, what has Moneyball/analytics done for the Browns?

Myles Garrett and Nick Chubb?

1-31 wasn't the target, but it was a well-known possibility. Their plan was to jettison expensive players, trade down, and churn the bottom of the roster. You can't do that and then claim you're trying to win as many games as possible.

We really don’t know why Paton’s not here ... we have no clue how much the thief affect had to do with Paton’s decision making process ...

IF its true about Wolf and we really tried to get him to stay ... that’s a real black eye on what the thief’s done to the credibility of this franchise ...

The kool aid drinkers will say its no biggie .... they’ll just be lying to themselves ...

Ya, anyone would have done what KJ did as far as bringing in talent ...

I agree. Not worried about Alonzo leaving but I was really hoping we would find a way to keep Elliot. Oh well Lets see what the future holds for us.

Probably not. Some would have done better.

Theo Epstein was hired in 2011 by the Cubs. He proceeded to lose 197 games in two seasons as he took an analytical approach in stripping down the team, hoping to build up a solid foundation, by using assets he compiled in those first two years.

Fortunately the Cubs got rid of that numbers-nerd and replaced him with a guy that actually knew baseball ... in Theo Epstein, and that guy proceeded to win a World Series 3 years later.

Anyone who tries to compare the 1-31 years to any other years is just putting their complete ignorance about the subject on full display.

...

Thats as logical as macs post ... congrats ... *L* ...

Someone who has forgotten more about football than you'll ever know

Football changes. Keep up with or ahead of the changes or get left behind.

Some things stay the same. Unfortunately, they're the obvious things that even a "football guy" can figure out. How you get to those things (toughness, etc) has had to change due to changes in the CBA. "Football guys" have struggled with that part.

diam...If Haslam really wanted Eliot Wolf to stay in Cleveland, he would be here, imo.

It's Haslam's checkbook...

Now, if Haslam is simply trying to get ahead of that "blackeye"...you float the story that we tried to keep him.

Ron Wolf has already commented on how screwed up teams are that rely heavily on analytics. He didn't say that he knew the Browns were once again a mess...but he didn't need say that...everyone knows that Ron Wolf was talking about Haslam, Depodesta and the Browns.

Reminds me of a quote in ... gah, I have to say it ... Moneyball:

Why not? Just continue on your dead end road.

Takitaki was the pick most closely tied to Wolf and he didn't exactly set the world on fire. (Liked the player well enough for the record, not sure about the draft slot)

If Wolf wasn't fully on board with Berry and Stefanski, it's probably best that he's gone. Good player, wrong fit kind of deal.

What did Eliot Wolf's dad say...



Hall of Fame GM Ron Wolf said the
@Browns
and others who embrace an analytics-driven model are "out of control."
Wolf: "When something goes wrong, who takes responsibility?
"Their answer: `Well, that's what the data told us.' What a crock. That's what got 'em 1-31.""

If you can’t operate a TI-84 then you don’t matter.

He's not going to know what that is.

Rubbish!

What round did we draft him in, I don’t remember him.

Dorsey was very good. He might have missed on Freddy but you can't win them all. What Haslem did was criminal. Get ready for trade downs for crappy players.

Eliot came on board in 2018.

In 2020 the GM position was open for hire.

He did't get a whiff. Was not considered for the position?

And now Berry is hired as the GM and the Packer connections are gone.

When a new regime is brought in most of the time the old regime is let go.

That is what happens. Coaches are let go as well.

I don't think this some giant surprise.

Maybe Stefanski/Berry and Depo will suck eggs.

But when I look back it is not like we are breaking up Chuck Knoll's Steeler's teams.

If I recall correctly it's not like we even had a winning record.

Freddie dug a grave and Dorsey put him in it.

So here we are.

Ron Wolf, Eliot Wolf or not.

When September rolls around we shall see what happens.

You are getting old bub...my comment was about "evachange" saying our scouting department was gone. It's not gone. The director of college scouting is gone.

If this is the way you are going to continue, we don't even need to talk.

As to another post, you said I ignored something in your post about frequent flyer miles. Either I don't know what you are talking about or deemed the comment something that didn't need my comment. Probably I don't know what you are talking about.

Probably so...that is why people leave. It's why Berry left last year, he could see what was going on and decided to leave.

What did Elliott Wolf do for us?

I wish we could have kept him, but obviously he wasn't going to have the same pull as he had with the Dorse.

It happens all the time at the top of a business. You can't tell me you expected everything to stay the same did you?

You are correct.
The old regime,the coaches and alot of players.
That's just how it always works.

Believe it or not, 5 of the 6 qb's he coached here are still currently on NFL rosters. Maybe the qb room wasn't as bad as the Hue lovers are saying.

Drink!

I wasn't. It wasn't superior by any means, but we could have won some games.

Drink!

This is hysterical for how ironic it is.

Welcome back!

J/c

Not a surprise IMO ... i dont think it’s a big deal

It isn't. It's business at the top. When the top person changes, they are going to bring in their people, just like Dorsry and all the others did.

Human nature.

I liked Wolf. Not sure why, probably because of his Dad, but I never knew much of him in a first hand way. At least it sounds like Berry tried to find a slot for the guy and it just didn't mesh.

Move on

I keep reading about what the Browns are doing, and I'm expecting somebody to tell me that this is all a joke. Like April Fools, haha, very funny. Only it's not April first. It's January twenty-whatever.

We might as well bring back Sashi Brown at this point (and no that's not something I encourage, but what would really be the difference at this point? It's basically the crew from two years ago back together, minus Sashi.)

Winner!

I think it's telling that Highsmith and Wolf wanted to move on.

It doesn’t seem like Highsmith had much of a choice. Wolf did and left. I wouldn’t be comfortable in the new setup if I were him either.

Things are different between now and then,

Mu guess is this. Depo provided Jimmy, days after the drafts the list of players he provided, round by round, in real time, which were ignored, and his list of players were better than the people we drafted. Something made Jimmy decide Depo was a voice to be heard.


Just my guess.

Blows my mind people believe this.

This isn't really a big deal. These guys were Dorsey hires and part of the old guard.

I think when it comes to NFL scouting departments there can be such thing as having too many cooks in the kitchen.

Especially if you have a number of different "cooks" with philosophies that clash.

This is almost as insane as anything mac has said.

He was joking ... your not .... that’s sad bro ....

Year 2 was the worst QB room in the history of football and u damm well know it ... how can we have a convo when you won’t admit the truth ...

Kizer, Kessler and Hogan entered the year with zero wins i believe ... they didn’t win any that year ... and i think they have 1 win since ... Cody in J-Ville and I’m not sure he threw for 100 yards in that game ... he may have been gifted two ...

And I’m not sure any of them took a snap last year ... but ya, with a rookie and two 2nd year BUMS were gonna blame Hue for 0 - 16 ... got it ...

Naaa .... nothing to see here .... the thief’s got ‘this ...

In the real world you try to collect and retain talent.

The Browns do the opposite, in the FO and on the field.

When good people don't want to be a part of what you are building that's an indictment on what you are building.

Alignment guarantees nothing. It just means there may be less arguments and people will hopefully get along. Alignment without experience means even less. The Browns are once again the laughingstock of the NFL.

I just can't shake the feeling that this will be an epic disaster.

When you start seeing they brought Hue back, that's when you can be sure you're just having a nightmare.

Sashi on the business (contract/cap) side wouldn't upset me.

EVERY team in baseball is heavy on analytics.

Literally all of them.

Ron should probably stick to what he knows.. football.

I don't see the big deal about the GM position, nor the scout/talent evaluators.

Anyone can evaluate talent. And at the end of the day, all of it is just a gamble and luck of the draw anyway.

My #1 need in the GM was ALIGNMENT with the HC. It starts there. If we have that, we're good.

Now lets go win some games!

The "football guys" cannot stand seeing the new data driven nerds threaten their livelihoods. This same thing happened in baseball 20 years ago.

Ron Wolf is upset, eh? The same Ron Wolf that gave us Mike Holmgren, who, in turn, hired a bunch of his buddies that were all associated with his agent Bob LaMonte so the good ol' boys club could all get paid.

In a 2010 conversation with The Repository, Lerner explained what led him to hiring Mike Holmgren as president of the Browns:

“The most-impactful conversation that I had was with Ron Wolf.

“He looked me right in the eye and said, ‘Randy, listen, the best guy to come in and deal with the Cleveland Browns, lead the Cleveland Browns, turn the Cleveland Browns around, is Mike Holmgren ... if you can get him.’ ”

https://www.cantonrep.com/article/20150704/SPORTS/150709715

Did he mean get Holmgren as a coach? Genuinely curious. Looking back on it, hiring Holmgren to be an executive instead of a coach was really a strange decision. He had struggled when he had powers of both but was a Super Bowl winning head coach in his own right.

JC

Things that happened the year Ron Wolf was born:


Seabiscuit beats War Admiral.

Nuclear fission discovered.

Margaret Hamilton's costume catches fire in filming of "The Wizard of Oz".

Ball-point pen invented.

War of the Worlds broadcast.

Oil discovered in Saudi Arabia.

He also helped build three Super Bowl winning teams. That's something the Browns won't see one of, as long as we insist on changing GMs and philosophies every two years - analytics or not.

I would assume and hope that Wolf knew Holmgren's intentions before recommending Lerner hire Holmgren so emphatically.

I get that you are trying to make a joke, but both scouting ability and alignment are minimum requirements. Rank them however you want. No matter how good the scouting, it doesn't matter if the coach doesn't want the player and has no intention of using them as the GM envisions.

Berry's been well thought of as a scout and has been on the GM fast track.

One of the benefits of bringing back a guy is that the guys new GMs often dump as roster turnover because they don't fit are guys that he helped bring in.

This, right here... is why I just don't post like I used to. What's the point, until Haslam decides to commit to something? All we can really talk about is the constant churn of names coming in and out of Berea, and the individual achievements of talented standouts on a perennially losing team with a perpetually fluid roster of strangers.

Another reboot.
Just getting started- again.
I just can't care like I used to any more.

Groundhog Day has ground me into numbness. Last year was The Ultimate Browns Experience®: All the promise in the world on paper, squandered by conflicting philosophies, bad executive choices, and to top it off, incompetence with the weekly on-field product. Browns are gonna 'brown.'

New Bunch: I'll believe it from them when I see it.
Haslams are the only constant in all this. Until they commit to something- anything ... for more than 15 minutes, it's like watching one of my wife's soap operas: faces come and go, but the story lines keep getting recycled, with no football product to watch on Sunday afternoons.

____________________


"Meet the new boss- same as the old boss."
As long as The Owner doesn't change.

Any system can work. Many different ones have worked all over the league since the Browns won it all. But they all had one thing in common, despite the difference in details:
they were all systems.

JimmyDee have never given the Browns a chance at a system, because a system takes time to install. They have continued the legacy established by Junior since Al passed: rookie owners doing rookie s#. This legacy in fact goes back to the days of Art Modell, as well. Art actually began the tradition of "burn & churn" back when FO stability was the norm. In fact, the Browns/Steelers dynamic took a 180° turn when the Rooneys committed to Knoll and Art committed to nothing for more than 4 years at a time.

We can fight about 'football guys' v. 'numbers nerds' all we want, but let's face it: each NFL team carries the persona of its ownership. Our is the persona of impermanence. Transience. Stepping-stone job. Because Jimmy sets the culture.

rinse.
repeat.

________________

I'm gonna watch the carnival ride this time. I used to buy a ticket, stand in line, and jump on the ride. Carnivals, by their very nature, are a rip-off. I'll resume investing in this product when it starts to produce. That's going to take more than 18 months with "the new bosses-same as the old bosses..."

.02,
clem

How so? Something made Jimmy decide to listen, or be sure Depo had more voice. Maybe my wording was sketchy. His list was given to people pre-draft. Not during the draft.

Again, just a thought.

Careful Fate I'm pretty old.

Not as old as Ron but old.

Wisdom is gained with age as long as you continue to search for it.

Ron Wolf is in the HOF.

But his son is the guy who did not want to stick around.

Analytics is used by every team that does not mean that it is the sole provider of information. Every team also maintains a scouting department.

Ron is probably more upset because Eliot was not offered the GM position.
=============================================

I have no idea how this will all turn out??

My choice if I had one was to keep Dorsey and hire McCarthy if that could have happened. At the same time I have no idea if Dorsey would have wanted McCarthy. McCarthy spent the year off looking for ways to get better. One of the avenues he pursued was analytics.

Here we are with most of the hiring done.


Owner - Haslam
Head coach - Stefanski
GM - Berry
CSO - DePodesta.
OC - Van Pelt
DC - Woods

================================================

When you look around the league and see the hires over the last two years. I don't think what has been here is somehow outrageous.

This group could fail miserable.

At the same time what we had last year didn't do all that well.
And from the candidates we looked at for the jobs needing to be filled. I don't see any combination that somehow
would have been guaranteed to succeed.

So I am willing to sit back and just see what happens without any expectations.

I get it, and I know his resume. Hearing an 81 year old complaining about analytics being "out of control" sounds like the old-timers complaining about "computers taking over the world" thirty years ago.

And then to say analytics got us 1-31? I'm thinking "only if you do it right".

But yes, he's bitter because his son didn't get the GM gig.

Sorry to hear but understandably Berry wants his own guys in here.

Thank you Elliot and Zo...all the best.

Yes, they where the last of the real football guys that we had.

Their leaving should raise some red flags, but then for many it will go straight over their heads.

So does Berry now bring back his boyfriend?

We have real football guys. Not sure what you are talking about.

Stefanski and Berry are football guys.

Thank god depo didn’t hire another Harvard geek to be the HC ... that may have been considered going a bit to far ...

It's 2020. He has a wife and kids. Are we really gonna use lame gay jokes to try to demean a guy?

Just as I suspected. No balance.

edit

Come on mac! The same bunch who support the 1-31 guys must know more than a guy who has three SB rings! Haven't you been listening?

If you think blows your mind, what about the people that think Baker is the best thing since sliced bread?

No, way off base. We know that Depo isn't running things and we know that we aren't in tear down mode like we were several years ago.

I think Wolf Sr. might be a bit miffed his son didn't get the job. I understand that.

If you and others want to remain in panic mode, there is noting I can do about it.

As for me, I am as calm as can be because I think we have a pretty perfect situation on our hands.

Those are the same people that don't realize that sliced bread is the best thing since Betty White, so we can disregard them as being immaterial.

That said, Baker is pretty good, but he isn't without faults and flaws in his game , for sure.

Ah, but I didn't say that. I said "the 1-31 guys". Our freshly minted 32 year old GM is included in that. But you do have a point. Haslam is the one who has been running this rudderless ship.



He might be. He also might understand you need a balance to run a team and that things here are tilted heavily in one direction. I mean his son was on the inside of everything that's gone on here. None of us are. We have guesses and theories. They have first hand information.



There's nothing "perfect" about this situation. Once again your making assumptions based on little to no evidence as I've seen you do many times when you want to paint a huge light into a dark room. But let's not pretend it's any more than that.

Panic? Why would I panic? We've both seen this same failing BS time after time for 20 years now. The difference between us I would say is a simple one. Once I've seen the same movie six or seven times, I know how it ends. You keep expecting the same movie to end differently no matter how many times you've seen it.

Oh I'm not saying Baker sucks. But to proclaim him as some great franchise QB at this point is certainly premature.

Agreed.
He has tons of promise, but he needs to step up his game.

You twisted everything I said.

Forget it. I am happy, and as long as I am happy, I don't care about the ones who aren't.

I read where Landry felt Freddie didn't handle Baker very well?

I like the quarterback background of Stefanski, Callahan and now Van Pelt.

All three have worked well with quarterbacks that have improved under them. All three are mechanics based in teaching.

The yet to be hired quarterback coach will play an important role as well.

The combo of Freddie, Monken and Findley did not appear to work for Baker.

Maybe this new group will be able to get the most from him.

Baker is a confident proud guy. I am sure he was humbled last year which is a good thing.

He has a to do list. I believe he will be highly motivated.

I am not forecasting a thing. I want to see him play and play better.

However, I do believe in his potential to be good.

The team faces many challenges this season. Baker is one of many.

The Browns defense needs to improve. Especially is situational down and distance. I was not keen on how Wilks handled certain situations during the game. Run defense must improve. Myles and Vernon need to stay on the field.

We know very little about Kevin Stefanski. This is a big step up for him. Callahan should be helpful. But we have no idea how this will work out.

I am not stressed. Firmly in the wait and see mold. It is easier than last year when I was overly confident. Reality came hard and quick when we got slapped down by the Titans.

Yet when Freddie took over as OC Baker looked very good and we went 5-3. It's actually the best he has ever looked in the NFL.



That seems like an odd comment to me. Dalton actually stunk it up so badly last year he was benched for a very poor back-up QB. Afterwords it was musical chairs from the back-up, back to Dalton towards the end of the season.



Freddie the HC I agree. Freddie the OC seemed to get the most out of Baker.



We all certainly hope so.



We certainly saw that potential with Freddie as the OC.



I'm in the wait and see mode as well. I'm just trying to provide a little balance and facts that those who are farting flowers and rainbows won't.

Giving on opposing opinion isn't twisting anything.

We have balance. We have footall guys at GM and head coach, and both agree with an analytic approach.

Is Berry a football guy? Is Stefanski? Those are the two decision makers. Everybody else is in a supporting role.

I guess that depends on who you listen to. Some of the Sashiites seem to think analytics has now taken over. Wolf, who actually worked inside the building seems to feel the same way. I guess I have to ask, if the objective is to have everyone on the same page, why is it you see Berry as a "football guy"?

I mean isn't a 32 year old guy that may very well lean more on analytics than almost anyone else they could have hired at the position? I'm just not sure how you are reaching your conclusions.

It seems both Wolf and Paton saw something that made both of them very uncomfortable. For some reason I can't imagine balance being the issue.

Ron Wolf was the Tampa Bay Buccaneers vice president of football operations from 1976 to 1978. Their record in that time period? 7-37. He resigned and then took the GM position with the Green Bay Packers where he built his Hall of Fame resume.

Andrew Berry was the Cleveland Browns vice president of player personnel from 2016 to 2018. Their record in that time period? 8-39-1.

As the OC, Freddie asked the players about plays they liked and adjusted to that.

As the HC, Freddie was Dorsey's "Yes man." If the players didn't like it, tough.

Freddie was calling plays they hadn't even practiced that week, so it seems basically impossible that they were plays the players "liked."

It appears to me that Freddie changed for the worse with added responsibility, pressure and Dorsey dictating things like, imho, taking on Monken and who to play.

It sounds like Stefanski can handle the pressure and Berry will be more collaborative than Dorsey. Now they have to prove it.

Zampese was the reason Baker looked better in his reads and mechanics in 2018 not Freddie. People forget the biggest change was the QB coach, OC/playcaller stayed same. You replaced a pretty good Qb coach that had plenty of experience with a guy that should be parking cars. Baker is in a much better situation this year from a coaching standpoint and believers in mechanics..he's not going to be able to reject broom sweepers this year, and rightfully so, he looked like a bust last year. If baker struggles this year in a QB friendly offense like Kubiak/shanahan, then its def. his issue. I mean Kirk Cousins looked good in it. If we get woods as DC, I like this staff alot more than I did last years. This year's staff is built with experienced guys to support the HC, and hopefully in contrast of last year, this HC allows himself to be helped.

I think most pro-Sashi people think analytics are a tool you should use in conjunction with football experience.

Dorsey thought analytics were something that were a pain in his behind and should be buried in a deep, dark hole (his trash can.)

Wolf and Paton weren't willing to change. No more, no less.

At least we now know who that fly on the wall was ... *L* ...

If Paton didn’t believe in analytics we wouldn’t have brought him back for a second interview ... why is the word we wanted to keep Wolf if he was so opposed to analytics ...

And u have no clue what KJ thought of analytics ..... I don’t understand why everyone is so dismayed with KJ ... MIS PLACED ANGER ...

Ron Wolf thinks analytics are out of control.

I'd say Ron Wolf's Tampa Bay Buccaneers that started out 0-26 were out of control!

I also think when he emphatically told Randy Lerner he needs to hire Mike Holmgren to turn the Browns around, Ron was out of control!

I think his ten division titles and three SB rings dictate otherwise.

I never knew so many of these dawgs lived on one way streets ...

Good thing Ron was given a second chance and wasn't labeled 'Mr. 0 and 26'

Who is it we're giving a second chance that has done their job at that position in the past ten years?

I've covered the Baker thing plenty. He had an off year, but yes, I believe he's a franchise quarterback and he'll be fine.

Dorsey was pretty bad. If you think otherwise, congrats.

I actually look at football rosters. I also watch QB play.

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding, are you arguing that John Dorsey was good and Baker is bad in the same post? Both of those things cannot be true.

Football Guy.

I'm saying the jury is still out on Baker and those suggesting otherwise aren't being realistic about that. I'm also saying that Dorsey built a roster that caused almost every Browns fan to believe we would be in contention to win the division last year until Freddie stunk it up as HC.

And now they're trying to rewrite history.

The Bengals are not a great barometer. They had serious problems obviously. Not having Green was minor compared to all the other stuff.

Aaron Rodgers had a lot of good things to say about Van Pelt.

https://247sports.com/nfl/green-bay-pack...ure--115422614/

He later stated it was his belief that Van Pelt will be a very good OC.

It is odd that Freddie the OC and Freddie the HC were at odds. I don't have an answer. The only thing I remember reading was Monken saying how messed up game prep was. Whatever it was the results were bad. Baker has to shoulder blame as well. But the offense never clicked like it did the second half of 2018.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...-clear-message/

Given all that has taken place and where we are now. Mind numbing. On one hand I can this going poorly on the other it maybe an improvement.

Back to wait and see.

We liked Paton and Wolf, but they weren't willing to adapt to the structure ("change") that the guy who would have been employing them wanted. They walked away. I'm not putting a good, bad, or indifferent label to it.

Dorsey's frequent derogatory use of the word nerds and his repeatedly saying they didn't bring in "real football players" makes Dorsey's opinion pretty clear to me. I suppose the binder in the trash can story isn't something I saw firsthand, but it seems to fit his public persona and stories that came out about his time in KC.

It's more resigned disgust than anger. If he could have set his ego aside, Dorsey was a good scout. People calling him King probably didn't help.

Yeah, Aaron Rodgers has decided that he thinks he should be making the coaching decisions in Green Bay. He's been doing that ever since McCarthy was there. They really should have kept Van Pelt in Green Bay. I mean it's not like they played in the NFC Championship game this year or anything.

Sashites....really....still leaning on that?


We had two problems....both Sashi and Hue.


Get over it man, why go back to talk 2-3 years in the past?

Let's agree they both sucked. Why not just leave it there?

Sashi made bad decision and Hue was inept a being a head coach. Sounds fair to me.

Its sashiettes .... ...

Because two of the top three in charge in the Sashi regime are back together? I mean let's face it, people wish to act as though they all worked independently of each other and somehow we're in a great situation now.



Oh they did. But have you been reading the board? Some still claim otherwise.

I don't claim that....don't talk to me about that.


If I had to take one over the other I would take Sashi over Hue simply because I felt Hue was the dividing factor.....but that is old.....time to stay current.

Currently two of the three powers that be during the sashi era are still here. As long as that situation exists it is current. It a part of the team going forward.

The least rotten of two apples is still a rotten apple.

What year did Tampa enter the NFL? Did they have free agency to help build the roster?

Don't cloud the record with more data!

Why do you keep saying 2 of 3? The top 2, Sashi and Hue are both gone.

Also, they're people, not apples. They weren't plucked off a tree. Berry's 32, he was and is still growing. They weren't permanently contaminated. Hue, maybe, at least until he's willing to learn from the experience and change.

Martin Mayhew is doing okay in San Francisco after having a similar role to what Berry had under Sashi while he (Mayhew) was in Detroit the year they went 0-16.

He just needs better players.

It wasn't the roster that made me believe we would be in contention to win the division, it was Baker. That was the reason EVERYONE felt that way. Amazingly enough, Baker had a down year and we struggled. And yes, Freddie stunk it up. That much we can agree on. But as for the rest of the roster? Dorsey did a really crappy job. He's gone, isn't he?

Feel free to continue to rewrite history...

That's why I discount your opinion on this matter. You aren't willing to give it a chance, but in the end, you have no choice.

We are back to where we should have been all along. I do understand that chaps some of you.

Last time Sashi wasn't the guy to be the lead. Hue wasn't a good coach who was never in step with the plan..

I think this time we have a good coach on board, and Berry is a highly respected "football guy". Depo is still solid support.

As has been said, there is no telling if it will work, but there is no telling that it won't. There is no reason why it can't.

All three of the main players played college football. They know what it is like to be a member of a college football team.

All three are Ivy grads, so all of them have a high degree if intelligence. I mean we can argue about intelligence, but seriously, you have to be a pretty bright person to graduate from a Ivy school. You have to be in a pretty high percentile to get in let alone graduate.

Our 2 main decision makers have vast NFL experience. Each has been in the league over 10 years. It's hard to say they don't have experience in the NFL game.

Depo doesn't have as much NFL experience, but I say that doesn't matter. The guy is at the top of his field in sports analytics.

Again my friend, it's not some Voodoo thing....it's just a process to gather and sort information. It's just a tool. It isn't the say all end all. We are still going to have scouts scouting and that will form the majority of our decisions.

It still takes boots on the ground to win wars. The drone pilots 500 miles away are great. They can provide a lot of great recon. Valuable info that saves life's but it still takes boots on the ground to get it done with the information they have.

He played the whole year and the roster changed as well.

Hue was not a part of the FO that purged talent. Somehow you have confused the coaching staff with the FO.



Berry has been gone for one year.



Mayhew is not the GM in San Fran. He wasn't given that much power.

Oh I certainly plan to give it a chance. What I'm not going to do is play make believe while farting flowers and rainbows and only consider one side of the coin like you and some others are doing.

There are two sides to this coin and pretending there isn't like some of you are doing isn't reality. There's just as much if not more evidence to believe this may fail than there is this will succeed. I'm not the one in denial of that.

What actually happened and what you believe happened are two different things.

The exact same thing could be said about you. Acting as though a HC who has never been a HC and a GM who has never been a GM is some magic formula to success isn't exactly a sound theory to rest your opinion on.

Could it happen? Sure it could. But acting as though anyone who questions that and trying to act as though they don't have some valid points and concerns to make is a pretty silly stand to take.

Forgetting the past four second, I never said this couldn't fail.

There's one x-factor here that could tear this whole thing down in the blink of an eye.

But unlike most here, I believe this is a "new" Jimmy. I'm not going to act like he pulled people out of thin air to run his team.

This was a very methodical approach and I get people don't like Depodesta, but the hires that recently took place are the best hires we've had under Jimmy.

Alignment and being on the same page doesn't always work, but acting like this is just Jimmy being Jimmy is wrong in my mind.

We've gone through a lot to be where we are right now. If I was all doom and gloom like a lot of posters here I wouldn't be here. Some people are convinced this will fail, why are you here?

The only thing I've ever hitched my wagon to is Baker. If I'm wrong about him so be it. I will follow Baker to wherever he goes if we move on from him. I don't think we're going to find a better quarterback.

1. You never said FO, you said powers that be.

2. He could have never left and it wouldn't make your contamination malarkey any more accurate.

3. Mayhew was made GM in Detroit after the 0-16 season. He was given that much power. He lasted 6 years which is more than our past several GMs can say. He led the lowly Lions to a 10 win season under his watch. He's now part of an organization in the Super Bowl whose GM had less front office experience than Berry when hired.

I understand you have "your beliefs". And everyone I'm sure has their own. On a personal note I have history and evidence showing me how Haslam has operated and his decision making up to this point.

Could this be "the magic moment" where he's changes? It could be. But putting faith that suddenly everything has taken a complete 180 isn't something that seems logical to many people.

And it's not actually about disliking Depodesta. It's about the fact that both He and Berry were at some level a part of the worst stretch of football in NFL history. Now we can sit here and debate about how much influence they had in that catastrophe. At what level their contribution was to that epic collapse. But what can't be denied is that they were ingredients in that recipe. So while many try and dismiss that, to act as though that should be dismissed and should not be an obvious concern I find to be very disingenuous.

Getting back to Haslam. This isn't the first time we've been last in line to make hires. It isn't the first time some have taken their name out of the running. Each time that has happened we've heard excuses made for it. Shanahan even gave a power point presentation why he wanted out. People mocked him and degraded him. Discounted his talent. He will be the HC leading San Fran in the SB this Sunday. There were very few of us then who saw how good of a coach he was and saw this as a strong signal for the dysfunction that Haslam has brought.

See, I view Cinderella as a fable. Much the way I view magic fairy dust. There is a wealth of evidence of the decisions Haslam has made in the hiring process since his arrival.

The fact is we elevated men at both the HC and GM position who are both new at their respective positions. No matter how you slice that, it's an experiment. One of those men was at least some part of our most epic collapse. So was Depo. At some point people need to admit that those who feel like the more things change, the more they stay the same, aren't simply pulling that out of left field.

Could it be that this is a turning point in the right direction? Yes it could be. But the evidence some are giving to try to use in order to bolster that belief is flimsy at best. At some point people should understand that a lot of us weigh the evidence and at this point the evidence regarding Haslam isn't good.

I'm not going to believe that suddenly the slipper found at the ball is going to fit his foot.

I don't see how this time around we're getting a 'new' Jimmy. If anything, 'new' Jimmy happened when Dorsey was around. He was visibly not as involved. Now, he's going to be in coaches meetings.

It's wonderful how people try and use an anomaly as evidence. Yet Mayhew was not a part of the most epic collapse in NFL history. The exception to the rule is always used when trying to bolster a weak point of view.

You act like Berry had no role in the team having the worst record in the NFL while he was here. I guess he got paid to do nothing? Just like Depo did?

Can this work? Yes it can. But you know that you gave an example that has rarely ever worked. Why don't you try and compare that with the times it's failed?

I didn't think so....

I'm normally not a doom and gloom kind of guy. In fact, through most of my time here, I've found myself often agreeing with you on a wide variety of football topics.

However, in this case, I can't help but think we have a three-headed monster (not in a good way) of Haslam, DePo, and Berry. The funny thing is, I'm actually a math/science guy and probably understand analytics better than most, but the way DePo has inserted himself into the weekly operations (where for example, Stefanski has to turn his gameplans into DePo) is dubious. Jimmy has no idea what he's doing. Berry was part of the personnel team that put together 1-31. I know there are strong mitigating factors there (Hue, and accumulating assets) but there was still this draft: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/2016_draft.htm

That was 14 draft picks, 13 of which were in the first 5 rounds. That's a lot of draft capital, to use that fancy new term, in order to get Schobert and maybe a couple contributors on other teams (Ogbah.)

2017 wasn't all that much better outside of Garrett.. and landing Garrett was really more about NFL rules and giving the worst team the first pick. If you can't find an impact non-QB positional player at #1 overall...

I just think this is going to end poorly, one way or another. Maybe Berry turns out to be a front office superstar, or Stefanski as a coach, or Mayfield turns into a transcendent QB that can overcome other problems in the organization. We'll see.

As is, don't be surprised if this alignment only lasts two years or less.. that's been the Browns M.O. since Haslam has owned the team.

I post because I've been a Browns fan as long as I can remember. It still boggles my mind what they are doing though. It's like we're the training ground for NFL ideas. Just throw whatever insane idea or setup against the (Browns) wall and see what sticks. We need a different approach.

Haus, this is incorrect and was put to bed by Stefanski in his introductory press conference. There is no requirement that Stefanski submits his gameplan to DePo.

On a side note, I would absolutely hope that Stefanski consults with the analytics department to review stregths and weakness of not only their opponents, but themesleves.

We saw what a complete disaster Freddie was (courtesy of Warren Sharp's data) as he continuously ignored the data that would have supported a team effort to succeed, i.e., personnel groupings, etc.

People will always come to their own conclusions.

For me, I refuse to believe that Jimmy likes to lose and loves firing people. Which seems to be the picture most want to paint. I think he sucks at finding and hiring the right people, which is why he was reliant on someone else to help lead his search.

You are saying because Jimmy has quickly fired a bunch of people in the past that the odds are high he'll fire these guys soon as well. I'm always trying to find out why. Why were these people fired? I believe it plays a role. A rather large role. And these guys odds of being fired quickly is much lower than you believe.

There are no other examples to compare to. 0-16 has only happened twice.

You started this whole business with your bad rotten apples analogy.

There is no rotten apples rule. It's some BS you made up. I'm not finding the "only exception" because your claim doesn't have any evidence.

I'm not acting like Berry had no role. I think he did his job well, but he had no decision making power. That's why he was wanted elsewhere. You're the one holding someone else's decisions against him.

Depo wasn't making decisions, either. They were both providing information that Hue, and later Dorsey, didn't heed. (Perhaps Sashi, too.)

Jimmy's not the brightest, but if the information they were providing had proven bad, he's smart enough to get rid of them (and has shown a willingness).

Based off what? ... seriously ... based off what? ...

something u read .... something u heard .... or is it simply WISHFUL THINKING cause u had no clue what it was he did ....

Sorry to pick on U ... there’s a bunch of dawgs running around acting like they know things they don’t ... my man Peen is leading the pack in that regards ... and as far as i can tell its 100% WISHFUL THINKING ....

The things we actually know about Berry are few and far between .... here’s what we know for sure ...

- about 10 or so overall years in the business”
- came here at 28 ..- was a part of a disaster here ...
- went to Phili for a year ...
- he’s back here now ...

That’s really it ...

He’s young and he’s moved up the chain EXTREMELY QUICKLY ... is that good or bad ... like most things in life ... prolly both ...

Now ... Ill wait to see what your basing your opinion that he did a good job here ...

Again ... sorry i picked on U ... it could easily have been Peen ...

Based on the fact that other teams were eager to hire (he signed with the Eagles) him and we were eager to bring him back. Bringing back a guy who you think didn't do his job well makes no sense.

While I think Jimmy has made bad decisions, I don't think he's dumb. Even if it turns out he is, it seems like he's listening to Depo this time who I'm confident isn't that big of an idiot.

Okay, maybe one sucked a little less than the other. That doesn't mean they didn't both suck. Is that better for you?



Yeah, Sashi didn't listen to anyone around him. The other two had no input. They are 100% innocent and resolved of everything that happened here during the 1-31 period. Mmmmmm hmmmm....



You mean like getting rid of Berry last year only to bring him back this year?

And something else you said which had to be something you made up.....

Nobody said Haslam "wanted to lose". That's just some made up BS you posted. Nobody "wants to, lose". There's just people who have no clue what it takes to win.

Now suddenly we are supposed to think that changed in an intstant.

But what else do we really have to go on, at this point? There is very little as far as solid evidence with which to judge the Berry hire. Everything is going to be either wishful thinking or doom and gloom. I think a select few people have really gone off the deep end, but those are easy to spot. :-p

My big question regarding Berry is his time here. Weren't those years run by The Consensus? I thought that was Sashi, Hue, and co. If so, by definition, Berry would have had a voice and it would've been heard. How that whole thing really worked (translation: it didn't) I don't know. There doesn't seem to be any accountability for draft and FA misses, of which there were many.

Yes, the entire "everyone reports to Haslam" method has been tried before with dreaedful results.

Thanks for the reply .....

I’m on board with your first point ... who were the other teams interested in him? .... That’s not near enough for me ... especially in todays nfl ....

your 2nd point ... ..

I think the thief is an extremely intelligent person ... prolly smarter than me ... I also think he is an absolute moron when it comes to running a football team ... to this point he’s been the worst owner in the history of sports ..... and his history of hiring GM’s is also the WORST EVER .... but hey ... if u want to ignore that and claim he cant be that stupid more power to u ...

I’m sticking with wishful thinking ... *L* ....

Are you old enough to remember Nick Mileti?
He beats Haslam by a country mile...

I’m 60 .... never heard of dude ... who’d he own and for how long? ...

A country mile .... that’s not possible ... *L* ...

Founded/Owned the Cavs, Crusaders, Barons, Partial owner Indians, Cleveland Arena and the Coliseum and some Las Vegas Posse team. CFL I think...

Lousy man, worse owner.

Some will talk him up and maybe did do few ok things but always maneuvered people into spending the majority of THEIR money to operate things.

If your first made up argument didn't work, make up another, I see. Then claim I said things I didn't. I remember why I stopped responding to you in particular and bothering to post on the boards at all there for awhile.

I'm tempted to break out the scarecrow/straw man gif, but apparently that's frowned upon.

I admit there is no guarantee on how he'll do at his new job, but your constant unsubstantiated attacks on how he did his old job are tiresome. Empty guilt by association claims don't make sense to me. I can't figure out your agenda. In the context of the old Sashi/Dorsey/Hue wars I kind of get it. From the context of moving forward, it just looks like you're doubling down on a played out argument that doesn't matter any more when you don't know anything that Berry (who worked for/with all of them) has actually done.

Read my post again. I admitted he could be that dumb.

As for other teams, I've found mention of the Panthers (link)

That's not the reference I was remembering. Still trying to track it down.

Edit- maybe this tweet by Dustin Fox ( link ) mixed with other stuff in my head. I was thinking other specific teams were mentioned. Still looking.

Just for clarification, I've never guaranteed he'll be good at his new job. People implying, or outright saying, he was bad at his old job seems made up, though.

Maybe it's just too simple for you.

Out of the top three in the front office during our 1-31 record, two out of those three are once again in powerful positions in the FO.

Everything you are trying to use in order to deflect from that won't change it. Trying to act like they didn't have some important input and influence into the decisions made during that period make zero sense.

I mean it's a convenient tool to try and turn the attention away from that and try to focus on me, but that won't change it.

So he stunk in all sports ... *L* ...

And you have ZERO idea as to how much influence they had then...nor how much influence they have now. You cannot even say what they contributed to those losses

Anything you have is a GUESS.


to generally everyone:

0-16 | 1-31 was not the result of 2 or 3 guys. There are 53 men in the locker room that had to do with it. There were coaches that had something to do with it. There were FO people that had something to do with it...It wasn't 2 or 3 guys.

So what is the point of all this bickering? It is irrelevant and there is NO power in it. Nothing will come of it. Jimmy Haslam is not going to come on to the board and say Oh wow. PitDAWG or MilkMan...(or whoever) is right...Let me fire all the guys I have and lets start over again...lets follow their plan.

Everyone's argument in this thread is full of conjecture.

Here are the FACTS:
Highsmith disagreed philosophically with the new regime. They mutually parted ways. Same with Dorsey. And eventually same with Elliott Wolf (whom the Browns did try to keep) All three did good things, and all three failed at things. We don't KNOW the extent analytics plays in the organization. We just know it is more than those three were comfortable with. Here is another thing. We don't KNOW what level of disdain the three had with analytics or if it is just certain analytics or what. All we do know is that Ron Wolf...with no affiliation to Cleveland, blasts an organization that just released his son after only 2 years....Oh and we know he is completely Old School...you think he has an ax to grind???

Another Fact. Berry is and has been highly regarded in the NFL starting when he was a scout. That has been widely documented.

Sashi takes a big beating here....maybe he should....maybe he shouldn't...I mean we were 1-31 and John Dorsey was available...seems logical to me....Even though the job was to tear down the team and increase draft capital....which he did. I don't think anyone expected or wanted 1-31...Who is to say what their draft plans were now that they had the money to spend...And who among you knows exactly what happened behind the closed doors of Berea.

This has been an organization of disfunction...Conflicting plans, conflicting ideas, poor communication. Jimmy may have been a little fast on the firing button...but were any of those firings really a bad call?

Look I don't know if all this "alignment" talk is going to work...I do know it is something any organization should strive for. I do know that analytics has a place in football. Who of us TRULY knows how we are going to use it?

So what is this bickering all about? Is it that important for you to be "right"??? Well guess what....in this discussion NO ONE will ever be right because we don't know what happens.

The end of the line is, lets start acting like tough Brown's Fans (seriously...who else can take this much punishment and be back every year) and stop acting like whiny Pittsburg Fans...

I agree on his old job ... no one has no clue how good or bad he was ...m all we know is the results were beyond horrible .... but him being low on the totem pole he more than likely had very little input ...

Even if he did ... he was 28 when he came here .... a pup ... he put in 3 years here and 1 in Phili ... he’s still a pup but now he knows not to pee in the house ... *L* ... hopefully he learned what not to do under Sashi and learned from KJ and Roseman in Phili ...

No biggie on who else was interested ... it don’t matter ... it wouldn’t sway my opinion one way or the other ...

And my opinion is ... he made just as much sense as any of the other unknowns out there ... i think he’s still way to raw for this job but I’ve been wrong before ... *L* ...

I wish him and well and get used to hearing the Andy Griffith theme song ... no clue why but it just seems to fit here ... *L* ..

If the bolded part was what you had said earlier (it wasn't) and all you had said, I'd have had to agree. But, I'd have still asked, so what?

Berry was never the shot caller. Neither was Depo.

I agree they had input. How much that input was used you don't know or at least haven't shown any evidence.

You just keep making new stuff up and ignoring all the factual evidence and pointing at the team's record like that explains something.

It explains what the group as a whole generated. They were a part of the decision making group. Unless of course it is your contention they were paid extremely high salaries in NFL offices not to have input.

That's nothing made up. The funny part in all of this is, you were trying to deny they were actually a part of it. Now you openly admit they were a powerful part of the FO and say so what?

It seems to me, we were told when it all started, "We are going to lose. It won't be pretty. Do not expect anything for a while, but it will be worth it." So why in the world is eveyone so upset ? I'm far more upset about the Dorsey years than the Sashi ones, because we expected to win with Dorsey."

Well, that is good to know. I stand corrected.

I do think that Stefanski should consult with the analytics team to review strengths/weaknesses of their opponents, and themselves. That would be very nice, and indeed Freddie's personnel usage was maddening.

Guess we'll see what they can do.

You don't need to tell me there are two sides to the coin. How could a coin only have one side?

I am not in denial of anything. I know that all these guys could flop.

Maybe some of you are farting crap because you don't think it can work, or don't want it to work for some strange reason.

It's not that you or others disagree. It's the manner in which you disagree.

I liked Dorsey for the most part. He could still be here if he wanted, but no way Haslam could allow him to select the next head coach unchecked. But with some, it's Haslams fault, Depos powerplay, etc.

You talk to me about looking at both sides of the coin. How about talking to some of the people you agree with, people who have become unhinged about looking at the other side of the coin.

Everyone knows what Depodesta did..
...and everyone knows what kind of man Jimbo is

Both are what their record says they are...losers.

So was Dorseys. It is what it is.

Of course, Wolf and Highsmith are out. They were part of the Dorsey regime that brought us more talent in two years than all of the others combined since the return. We can't have bums like that in Cleveland. Heaven forbid. They might want to draft football players instead of athletes. No room for that kind of thinking. We need guys that know 40 times are more important than actually playing the game. They also might want to spend money in FA or make some trades to get us more talent and Analytics says never spend cap room on players other than fill-ins. Talent comes from the draft. Period. Dump big contracts and hoard cap space at all costs. Plan on seeing the Browns dump every big contract they can. OBJ and Landry... I don't see them here very long. MAYBE this coming season but it would not surprise me if they are gone by the start of camp. Remember how Sashi ran things? That was how things will be done again. Cut salary, amass a huge cap space and never spend it regardless of team talent. "Build through the draft" and draft according to the numbers not necessarily football talent.

Yeah? A team that Dorsey had a big hand in building is in the Super Bowl on Sunday. But football guys like Dorsey are bums and we should just let the Baseball guy run everything because he has HOW many rings? If Dorsey HAD to go the FIRST guy on my list to be the next GM would have been Elliot WOLF. He didn't even get an interview. We can't have guys like him around. He didn't go to Harvard and knows a little something about FOOTBALL. I am actually glad he's gone though... He has a chance to land somewhere that won't destroy his career. I think he will be a great GM somewhere that actually wants that. Good luck to both of you. Thank you for your hard work over the last two seasons. You helped to make this Browns team the most talented since the return and you did that in two years time! Bravo!

I don't disagree. I have already said I hoped he would stay, but losing records were brought up and it is what it is.

The FO that had all the ammunition that the previous regime collected for them brought in a bunch of talent with it? Incredible. He was able to hit on the first and fourth pick in the draft...we thought. Some of the shine has come off. He hit on Chubb. Other than that, 2018 looks like a nightmare:
Corbett-gone.
Chad Thomas-high 3rd rounder with meh (generously) production.
Callaway-gone.
Avery-gone.
Ratley-*shrug*
Simeon Thomas-gone
2019:
No 1st rounder
Greedy Williams-shows potential. Missed time with injury
Takitaki-3rd rounder that hardly saw the field until late in the season
Redwine-another underwhelming guy from Miami
Mack Wilson-Had a nice preseason then petered off
Seibert-Time will tell.
Forbes-went on IR
Donnie Lewis-not sure if he's still around or not

How did Dorsey's free agent decisions work out? When he didn't have a stacked deck? His coach choices?

He downgraded Fells to Harris.

Overpaid Hubbard.

Brought in Kush who he had to spend 2 future picks to replace during the season.

He did find a talented punter as a UDFA.

Swapped Zeitler for Vernon which seemed to kill Baker's mojo and Vernon was hurt most of the season.

The trade for Randall was good, better when he wasn't in the dog house.

I still have some optimism about the OBJ trade, but the season didn't make it the slam dunk we expected.

I'm probably missing something, but I'm not sure why so many people wanted to crown him.

Landry was a good if expensive trade. No complaints.

Lining them up side by side (mentally, formatting is a pain). So far Sashi and Dorsey look pretty close in bringing in talent through the draft. Neither overly impressive.

Dorsey got to pick his own coach and landed on Freddie.

Sashi never got to pick.

Except for you.

Except it is true Mac....you don't listen. Moneyball doesn't apply because in baseball, teams can spend what they want. Some like the Yankees can spend as much as they want. Teams like the A's or Indians don't have unlimited funds. They have to make their money count.

In the NFL, you have a salary cap and a minimum as average over 3-4 seasons. That minimum might be close to 90%. Every tam has to spend the money.

Depo isn't trying to do things cheaper as he did in baseball because they had to do it that way. He is simply applying the same things he did in baseball to help us find better players, or call better plays, or give us a better idea of knowing what other teams run in various situations.

Because you gave a prime example of what's so wrong with debate these days. Just because someone gives examples of how things could work out the opposite way you are presenting them, you make dumb comments like "they're unhinged".

I have said all along that they have a chance to succeed. I've actually never said anything contrary to that. But we have quite a few who seem to object and often times deny there is any validity in the opposing opinions of how many things that can go wrong. Of obvious factors that could turn this into a disaster. And you call those with an opposing opinion unhinged?

Mmmmm hmmmm.

Seems valid to me, Peen.

Just a little different slant to consider. I welcome more analytics if it only does one thing: Makes us stop doing the crap that gets us beat; our losses seemed so similar, so deja vu, and some of that was more of the same. We didn't seem to learn from a loss. One of the first rules of triage is first, stop the bleeding. The things that beat you don't have to be the biggest things, littler stuff will do.

Avoiding the same mistakes seem valid to me at every level.

j/c...

Update...

Update to the update...

Good for them. I'm glad they are apparently landing on their feet.

Looks like the Seahawks are getting the package deal, too.


I know that they're paid just fine and everything, but I do always feel a little sad when people get swept up in FO changes. By all accounts, these 2 guys are tops in their field, but that doesn't mean diddly when their boss gets tossed and the new boss is on their way in. Again, not much sympathy for people that are getting paid out the nose (and still getting paid by us now), but a little sympathy.

Good to hear egis. Best of luck to them.

The Seahawks are a model franchise and just hired two guys the Browns didn't want. LOL

I think the Browns wanted Wolf to stay from what I understand.

The Browns didn't want them? Can't find anything that ways the Browns didn't want them.
And two years before, the Browns, a craptastic franchise, hired the same two employees from a model franchise in Green Bay. Also, nothing that says the Packers didn't want them.

Weird.

I agree. Both have their talents. I don't like to see anybody left high and dry.

It's that way in almost any business. You know that, and you didn't berate anybody. When the person at the top leaves for whatever reason, the new person has those on his or her coattails. Not to mention we may have offered a position to both. Maybe the same positions, I will stipulate to you they not have been. We don't know.

It's been that way for centuries. At least we don't chop off heads anymore....well...at least in a civilized society.

I like Rish. He has been acting weird lately. Give him a pass.

I think we would have kept both, but for the same reasons Berry left, they left.

It's how it works. Both are talented guys who have worked in the FO for a long time. They want upward mobility. They want to be GM's.

In any business, if you are passed over without a interview, it is time to go. That isn't bad on you or them.

It is what it is.

Are you seriously saying with the regime change the Browns wanted to keep those two from the previous regime? Really?

If the Browns wanted them to be here, they would be here. Unless of course they were fed up with Haslam's house of rotating cards.

You'll probably know better than I and I'm probably wrong, but weren't those two here before Dorsey? If they were then that means they weren't really married to "that regime".

They were both hired right after Dorsey.

GOtcha, thanks!

They also employed Ryan Grigson for the last two years.

My point is a bigger one.

Dorsey, Wolf, and Highsmith were an accomplished, experienced, well thought of trio. Haslam could have and should have rolled with them but that would have meant the end of Depo. Instead he chose Depo, Stefanski, and Berry...a collection of inexperience in all positions.

I think that was a foolish choice and that this won't end well.

So its better that they didn’t want anything to do with this org ...

Weird.

No. It's the "facts of life" of the NFL. It's like musical chairs when you were in kindergarten, but tens times busier.

All that experience and they did a crap job. Apparently experience isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Other than Freddie, what's the crap job they did?

Depends who you ask around here...

Do you believe they missed on the #1 pick or is Baker a franchise quarterback?
Ward and Chubb are fine.
I believe Corbett, Chad Thomas, Callaway, Genard Avery were all poor selections. Most of the 2018 draft is no longer here.

They weakened the offensive line as opposed to strengthening it.
Trading away Zeitler and Peppers created holes that were not filled.
A 3rd rd pick for Tyrod Taylor.

Oh yeah, and Landry is overpaid.

It was a constant staple in my criticism of Dorsey, he didn't have a plan, he just added a collection of players without having any real direction. Perhaps it would have been great if he stays here as a lead scout or something, but putting him in charge of running a franchise, no thanks. We were heading for disaster.

If a person thinks Baker is a bust then John Dorsey is/was a colossal failure.

That's my biggest issue with Dorsey (and personally, I wanted to keep him). His two biggest decisions were to get the right QB in a draft where he could get his first choice, and to get get the Head Coach pick right. He failed miserably at picking the head coach and depending on who you talk to, potentially drafted a dud in Mayfield.

If you don't blame Dorsey, then who do you blame? Most people point to either the coach, the QB or the O-line, and Dorsey had direct influence over what happened to all those positions.

j/c:

The Browns had the worst roster in the league when Dorsey took over. In two short years, the roster improved dramatically. Guys who have played and coached the game talked about how talented that roster was on national tv and in national publications. They are not Brown's homers who emphatically supports one regime and hates on another. They are more objective than we are.

What kills me is people act like two years are all a guy needs to complete the job. The Browns lost 31 games in two years under the previous regime. They lost 13 fewer in the two years Dorsey, Highsmith, and Wolf were here. Not sure how anyone can take a stance that says that they couldn't have kept improving the roster?

Those of us who are supporting Dorsey are not saying he was perfect. We are saying he did not deserve to be fired. We are also saying that replacing him w/the same group of guys who were epic failures is mind-boggling.

Btw------I don't think too many people are calling Baker a bust. I know I'm not. I questioned the pick mostly due to his personality. I also didn't agree w/folks who anointed him as a great qb. I consistently stated that a lot of qbs fall off in their second year. I think this is a huge year for Baker. I think he has the talent, but I have strong questions about his attitude and temperament.

Yet that's all Sashi was given and it was presented that things would get worse before they got better by design at the time of his hire. Plus, he was handcuffed to Hue when the coaching search committee wanted McDermott. Your hypocrisy is ironic.



I don't think anyone has claimed that he wouldn't add talent. The problem isn't adding talent. The problem was lack of a coherent plan for utilizing the talent and general organizational disfunction which he was a major contributor to.

Dorsey got the benefit of Sashi's plan without any of its downside (Sashi only got the downside and a coach he didn't want), but he managed to make his own problems despite more talent at his disposal and being able to add his choice of coaches. Dorsey's problems weren't going away. He's a steamroller, not a work with-er.

Yes, Dorsey used our collected assets to buy a bunch of Dynamite to get the mountain out of our way, but he left a giant mess and sprayed shrapnel every where while he was at it. Now we need some engineers to clean up the mess and construct the best route to where we want to go utilizing the materials at hand.

"Isn't it ironic....don't you think?"



You seriously cannot make this stuff up.

j/c


I see this a lot: Dorsey needed more than 2 years to "fix" the roster. While I agree we need to pick a lane and stay in it, the roster Dorsey inherited wasn't "broken." It was also year 3 and 4 of fixing an actual broken roster.

Some of Dorsey's moves were unnecessary. I mean sure OBJ is the most talented WR on the roster, but was he necessary? I remember myself and one other saying we didn't need him. I also don't think we needed Vernon. We added two very talented players, sure. We also gave up 2 talented players, Peppers and Zeitler and neither were replaced with "better" assets.

It may have been Dorsey's first or second year, but it was year 3 and 4 of the rebuild. We didn't need an overhaul. We needed someone with a keen eye for talent to grab us some much needed top tier talent. Yes, he brought us some talent. But some of it came at a price.

I liken our situation to the Eagles. They had what we did in the front office in Howie Roseman. Then they hired Chip Kelly, he made a lot of "unnecessary" lateral moves, including moving on from Foles for Bradford and McCoy for Demarco Murray. They regressed and Chip was fired. They went back to Howie and hired a first time head coach and a short time later the Eagles won the Super Bowl.

Folks, we're going to be alright. When we win the Super Bowl in couple years will anyone care that Dorsey, Highsmith, and Wolf weren't here?

No, OBJ wasn't necessary. Corey Coleman, Ricardo Louis, Jordan Payton and Rashard Higgins were necessary.

OBJ gave us 4 TDs. Higgins has done the same in a season.

Higgins didn't cost us a 1st round pick, players, and a hefty contract.

We didn't pick Coleman in a vacuum. We also got more picks with the trade down. Coleman hardly played with the QB we drafted him to play with.

OBJ came into a team with high expectations. Coleman came into a team heading for rock bottom. CC still only had one less TD than OBJ his rookie season which he spent mainly with Kessler as the guy throwing him passes and he didn't have Landry to draw attention away from him.

We spent more on OBJ than those four guys combined.

OBJ could still work out fine for us, but I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make with that post.

This is why this place is beyond stupid ...

OBJ played hurt all year ... he had no explosion and that’s a major part of his value ...

Yet U who used to know better tries to compare that acquisition based off this years results to what Higgs cost us based off his career results ...

That’s beyond having an agenda .... its ignorant ...

Then u talk about the CC pick being in a vacuum cause we got other picks ... that makes even less sense than the OBJ/Higgs portion of your post ... its actually not factually true ...

When we picked CC we ALL READY HAD THE EXTRA PICKS ... the CC pick had ZERO TO DO WITH US GETTING EXTRA PICKS .. the argument there would be passing on Wentz got us extra picks ...

And one of your fellow sashiettes liked your post ...

Let me guess ... u also believe that VG IS OVERPAID ...

Why are you trying to compare one of the top WR's in the NFL who played with a sports hernia the entire year to a healthy WR?

And for some reason I thought actual reception yardage were valuable as well. Maybe I'm missing something?

You keep looking at this so myopically. It was the worst roster, but it was also the worst roster with a plan for it to get better. Dorsey had the most cap space, most draft capital and youngest roster core of any other GM. How could he NOT improve the roster? Quit acting like Year 1 of Sashi's teardown is in any way relate-able to Dorsey's Year 1 of the buildup. They are vastly different situations. You don't go into a construction project and call the Demolition crew garbage because the house looked terrible on Day 1 and 2, but looked so much better on Day 3 and 4, when the construction crew started putting things together.


Okay fine, I agree with this. I think they are talented too, and Dorsey did a pretty good job of amassing talent. But please answer me this: Why were we so bad then? Was it the coaching? The Oline? Baker? We had all this talent, yet we regressed have less wins than an interim head coach? What was the problem? And who made the changes that caused that problem?


But he wasn't fired. He quit. Like I was saying in my above post. His two biggest jobs were to nail the QB pick and to nail the HC hire. He failed terribly in at least one of those ventures. But rather than admit a mistake or look to correct it, he appeared to just double-down on it to the point where all the talent on the team basically quit the final couple weeks of the season. Then when it's insisted that he take some help for the hiring of a new coach, since he whiffed so terribly on the last choice, he quit himself.



Which is funny and ironic, because just one paragraph ago you said:



I wish they would have stuck with Dorsey and company another few years, but he did quit. I was hoping they would retain Highsmith and Wolf as well but I think they wanted different situations as well. I was also hoping they would stick with the original regime as well for more than 2 years. Especially when they told him beforehand, "Look, this is a 5+ year plan and the first few years are going to be rough"



I agree with you here as well. It's funny that you mention his temperament though, because I saw similarities between him, Freddie and even Dorsey. I felt all three of them displayed a bit of arrogance last season, like they could do no wrong, and didn't need to change anything, and it came back to bite us.

What I am still asking, and have not gotten a good answer for is, why didn't Dorsey try to take control of the situation, call Freddie in and tell him that obviously him calling plays was not working, perhaps he had too much on his plate? Why wasn't Freddie told to allow the Monken to call plays? To me, this is a failure to supervise and is every bit as big of a failure as choosing the wrong coach in the first place.

I was comparing the two sides because you put them in consecutive sentences in the post I was replying to.

Coleman actually missed six games his rookie season.

OBJ got most of his yards and TDs in the 4th quarter of blowouts. OBJ situational stats link

Coleman also had about half the targets (133-73 on pro-football-reference.com) and as I mentioned earlier they were from Kessler rather than Baker.

But, again, the only reason I posted about the two groups is because you posted a flippant 2 sentence post with them next to each other and nothing else. OBJ is clearly the better receiver, but strictly based on their contributions to the Browns compared to the cost OBJ doesn't look that great. Admittedly the injury played into it. Dorsey's guy wasn't the only one that had to deal with injuries though. Sashi lost the most important player on the team (starting QB), and his backup, the first few weeks of his first season.

Because Dorsey and Freddie were tied at the hip.

Because Dorsey desperately needed to be right on Freddie to one up Depo.

Because Haslam creates a culture where one upping your coworkers is more important than doing what is best for the Browns.

That was actually only one season of Higgins stats (2018) that I referenced. I purposely didn't go with career since OBJ only has the one season with the Browns.

The vacuum I was referring to was the team around the players. The picks were a separate idea, not a "cause."

VG might be a little "overpaid", but I'm not complaining about it. He was probably Dorsey's best move with Chubb a close second.

Was it a strange comparison? Sure, but it was in response to a strange, vague post that appeared to be intended as a shot at the Sashi stint (2 years isn't long enough to call an era) FO.

To me, if Freddie had been called in and told to allow Monken to call plays, and it worked, it would have saved EVERYONE'S job. If it didn't work, Dorsey could have pointed at it and said, "I even tried to give him guidance during the season, it just didn't work out," and it would have saved Dorsey's job. Once again, failure to supervise, and that is on Dorsey.

People keep saying this, but it's not the structure that causes the culture. It's the egomaniacs inside the structure that feel the need to try to "drive the bus" that cause the disfunction. Have Jimmy's poor hiring decisions caused/allowed that to happen? Sure, but it's not the structure causing the problems, it's the people that were in it.

It blows my mind that the only people responding to my post are guys I don't want to talk to.

I don't care if folks agree w/me. I just want honest conversation where we can go back and forth w/honorable intentions. I am not going to talk to those who lead w/insults and personal attacks.

Anyone interested in a civil discussion on the matter? Again, I have no problem if we disagree. Hell, I think an honest debate is a good thing. Hearing an argument from both sides helps folks learn. Pathetic insults and character assassinations do not.

Actually, it was you I was referring to. You also said we didn't need OBJ and that we were good to roll with the receivers we had.

But go ahead and change your story...

#agendamuch

(He doesn't either, he's just here to disagree)

I have no clue what your talking about ... i hardly read your replies to me much less anything else u say ... I’d rather try and talk to the dog than u ...

Change my story .... naaa ... here’s my story with OBJ ...

1st take ... nuttin to with the prima donna .. all the talent in the world with a 2 cent head ... i believed his price tag would be way to high ... at least two 1st rounders ...

2nd take ... WOOOOHOOOO .. we stole him ... thanks Dave ... THANKS KJ ...

3rd take - he should have been at OTA’s but that’s who he is ...

4th take - this ones new in that i haven’t shared it yet ..

Bummer on the injury ... great job handling yourself and the injury/adversity this year .. HORRIBLE JOB lining up .... not sure where that came from ... cause i always said he was a GREAT TEAMMATE despite being a prima donna ... all his teammates rave about him and his work ethic ...

And I’m not sure what any of that has to do with Bull’s well beneath him agenda post .. comparing OBJ to Higgs ... ...

U must be the sashiette that liked it ... u dan man ..

My explanation wasn’t for u ... it was to clear my opinions up ...

I’m sure your just upset that VG hasn’t been cut yet ... ...

I'm sorry, where did I use an insult or personal attack? I said I agreed with what you were saying through much of my post, and even asked you some specific questions that I'm generally curious what your answer is.

I would like to. Because I honestly wasn't sure about Dorsey.. Before i posted to you I did some research.. It's long I can't detail everything and some things are missing...I'm trying..

Dorseys FA signings...

2018 :

T.J. Carrie, CB.
Carlos Hyde, RB.
Chris Hubbard, OL.
Chris Smith, DL.

2019 :Sheldon Richardson, defensive tackle.
Demetrius Harris, tight end.
Kendall Lamm, offensive line.
Eric Kush, offensive lineman.


Draft picks..

2018 :
Round 1, No. 1 overall: Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma
Round 1, No. 4 overall: Denzel Ward, CB, Ohio State
Round 2, No. 33 overall: Austin Corbett, OL, Nevada
Round 2, No. 35 overall: Nick Chubb, RB, Georgia
Round 3, No. 67 overall: Chad Thomas, DE, Miami
Round 4, No. 105 overall: Antonio Callaway, WR, Florida
Round 5, No. 150 overall: Genard Avery, LB, Memphis
Round 6, No. 175 overall: Damion Ratley, WR, Texas A&M
Round 6, No. 188 overall: Simeon Thomas, CB, Louisiana-Lafayette

2019 draft picks
Round 2, No. 46 overall: Greedy Williams, CB, LSU
Round 3, No. 80 overall: Sione Takitaki, OLB, BYU
Round 4, No. 119 overall: Sheldrick Redwine, S, Miami
Round 5, No. 155 overall: Mack Wilson, LB, Alabama
Round 5, No. 170 overall: Austin Seibert, K, Oklahoma
Round 6, No. 189 overall: Drew Forbes, OL, SE Missouri State
Round 7, No. 221 overall: Donnie Lewis Jr., CB, Tulane

2018 Trades
March 14, 2018: Traded DeShone Kizer, 2018 4th round pick (101st overall subsequently traded, Ian Thomas) and 2018 5th round pick (138th overall, Cole Madison) to Packers for Damarious Randall, 2018 4th round pick (114th overall subsequently traded, Da'Shawn Hand) and 2018 5th round pick (150th overall, Genard Avery)
March 14, 2018: Traded 2018 4th round pick (101st overall subsequently traded, Ian Thomas) and 2019 7th round pick (234th overall, Myles Gaskin) to Dolphins for Jarvis Landry
March 14, 2018: Traded Danny Shelton and 2018 5th round pick (159th overall subsequently traded, Daurice Fountain) to Patriots for 2019 3rd round pick (95th overall subsequently traded, Oshane Ximines)
March 14, 2018: Traded 2018 3rd round pick (65th overall subsequently traded, Brandon Parker) to Bills for Tyrod Taylor
March 15, 2018: Traded Jason McCourty and 2018 7th round pick (219th overall, Danny Etling) to Patriots for 2018 6th round pick (205th overall subsequently traded, Trevon Young)
April 27, 2018: Traded 2018 2nd round pick (64th overall, Tyquan Lewis) to Colts for 2018 3rd round pick (67th overall, Chad Thomas) and 2018 6th round pick (178th overall subsequently traded, Christian Sam)
April 28, 2018: Traded 2018 4th round pick (114th overall subsequently traded, Da'Shawn Hand) and 2018 6th round pick (178th overall, Christian Sam) to Patriots for 2018 4th round pick (105th overall, Antonio Callaway)
May 18, 2018: Traded Jamar Taylor to Cardinals for a 2020 6th round pick
August 5, 2018: Traded Corey Coleman to Bills for a 2020 7th round pick
August 31, 2018: Traded Shon Coleman to 49ers for 2019 7th round pick (243rd overall subsequently traded, Nick Scott)
September 1, 2018: Traded 2019 7th round pick (231st overall, Alize Mack) to Saints for Devaroe Lawrence
September 17, 2018: Traded Josh Gordon and 2019 7th round pick (243rd overall subsequently traded, Nick Scott) to Patriots for 2019 5th round pick (170th overall, Austin Seibert)
October 19, 2018: Traded Carlos Hyde to Jaguars for 2019 5th round pick (144th overall subsequently traded, Marvell Tell)


2019 trades
March 13, 2019: Traded Kevin Zeitler to Giants for Olivier Vernon
March 13, 2019: Traded Jabrill Peppers, 2019 1st round pick (17th overall, Dexter Lawrence) and 2019 3rd round pick (95th overall, Oshane Ximines) to Giants for Odell Beckham Jr.
April 2, 2019: Traded Emmanuel Ogbah to Chiefs for Eric Murray
April 26, 2019: Traded 2019 2nd round pick (49th overall, Ben Banogu) and 2019 5th round pick (144th overall, Marvell Tell) to Colts for 2019 2nd round pick (46th overall, Greedy Williams)
August 8, 2019: Traded Duke Johnson to Texans for a conditional 2020 pick (3rd or 4th-round pick)
August 29, 2019: Traded a 2020 5th round pick and a 2020 6th round pick to Bills for Wyatt Teller and a 2021 7th round pick
August 30, 2019: Traded David Blough and a conditional 2022 pick (7th-round pick) to Lions for a conditional 2022 pick (7th-round pick)
August 31, 2019: Traded a conditional 2020 pick (7th-round pick) to Packers for Jordan McCray and a conditional 2020 pick (7th-round pick)
August 31, 2019: Traded a 2020 7th round pick to Titans for Taywan Taylor
October 15, 2019: Traded Austin Corbett to Rams for a 2021 5th round pick
October 28, 2019: Traded Genard Avery to Eagles for a 2021 4th round pick

I really don't want to do all the acquisitions .. Players like Hunt and Robinson etc...

I don't want to be lazy.. I just don't want to go back and look at who is still on the team..who Dorsey signed and drafted then cut or traded.

Sure seems he likes pot heads..lol just kidding. I'd rather see the NFL get rid off the pot test. It's okay for the team DR to take a player off the field..give them a shot of who knows what to get them back on the field so they can make the org win and money.. But the player in pain can't smoke a little natural weed to help the pain.. Yeah that's another discussion.

I didn't remember the Tyrod Trade was Dorseys.. I do like the Chubb and Landry pick ups.. Others are still on the question mark with myself...Not saying good or bad. Just got to see what happens this season.

I was referring to this.

I'm beginning to think you're a closet sashiette.... it's all starting to make sense.

From your link.

He also explained in the same link he didn't want OBJ.

Then explained here how he didn't like him, liked him, didn't like him and now likes him.

Doesn't get any more wishy washy, back and forth than that... gotta cover all bases.

Carry on.

U think i clicked on your link ... ...

I got new info (STEALING OBJ) and the new info led me to change my mind ... and u call that wish washy ... BRILLIANT! ... awesome way to go through life ...

Difficult to have a reasonable conversation with a handful of you.

Good luck.

I know how you feel.

Eliot Wolf lands with Patriots...

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/nfl-rumors-patriots-hire-former-175441225.html