DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Player movement, off-season

That could be a fit, sure.

Tampa is interesting. Do they pony up for Jameis or go with Brady/Rivers

Guys, don't get your hopes up about the Browns being very active in Free Agency or making big trades. That ended with Dorsey leaving the building. Analytics says never spend big in FA or on older players. They build through the draft, trade-off or cut big salaries and amass lots of cap space which they really hate to spend. I suspect they will wait until all the big name FA's are signed and then spend very small amounts on a low tier player or two.

You just described the Patriots.

Do you think we have Bill Belichick on staff? Do you think these guys have the TIME to slowly and methodically build a team? Haslam doesn't have the patience and we don't have Bill Belichick or Tom Brady. What we need to do is keep spending(not stupidly but be willing to take some chances) and building this team to win NOW. Or this time next year or the year after we will be hiring a new HC and GM and rebuilding the entire thing AGAIN. We were on the way to having a really great team. This team has more talent now than at any time since the return. That didn't happen by playing it safe.

jameis is a turnover machine, Arians won't stand for that.. I truly think they will try to get a vet in there and make a run while Arians still coaching, then when he retires rebuild

By the way .. Didn't Arians say the Browns would be his dream job and wanted to come out of retirement to be head coach here.. but noooooo Dorsey wanted Freddie .. kinda makes you wonder

The argument that data driven front offices are unwilling to spend is not a valid one.

Please lay out for me these awesome free agents and trades that Dorsey engineered. I'll start:

FA

Sheldon Richardson
?


TRADE

Jarvis Landry
?


Biggest splash:

Zeitler, Peppers 1st Rd Pick for OBJ & Vernon - A trade I would unwind in a heartbeat if I could.

Free agents JD created...unnecessarily...meaning released

Nassib
Reiter
Perriman

What am I missing besides trading a disgruntled Duke?

Perriman needed to go, and Nassib wasn't cutting it any longer.
Reiter is just a guy whose position was backfilled by the same.

IIRC, Perriman asked for his release after the Beckham trade, so we might reasonably include him in the package for Beckham and Vernon.

The one that bugged me was trading Genard Avery. He could have helped a lot after Vernon's injuries and Garrett's suspension. For some reason he never saw the light of day once Freddie took over.

Perriman had agreed to a contract with the Browns, but had not signed it. He asked to be let out of the agreement, but the Browns could not have done anything to make him stay, because no deal had been signed at that time.

Perriman had a pretty good year in Tampa and was the downfield threat we gave away...6 TDs;

Nassib was a team captain for Tampa...6 sacks;

Reiter is the starting center for the Chiefs and will play in the Super Bowl tomorrow.

I left out the JD-created-free agent TE Fells...7 Tds

But the trade for Beckham preceded his backing away from the agreement - correct, or am I mis-remembering?

They had a verbal agreement from what I've found. Maybe the day before the Beckham trade?

Verbal, but not signed. Worthless, really.

He did back out once the trade for OBJ came through, because he didn't want to be the #4 receiver.

Oh what might have been:

Zeitler, Perriman, Peppers, Ogbah, Fells, and Dillard (LT, perhaps)

vs

Corbett->Kush->Teller, OBJ, Burnett, Vernon, Harris, and Robinson.

Things that make you go hmmmm.

Kind of bang-bang. I think they traded for Beckham and then mutually-agreed with Perriman to cease with the verbal agreement...an agreement that they had come to very-shortly before the trade. Maybe the same day.

It was a verbal...but my recollection of the "reporting" was that the Browns let him out of the contract. Which isn't really the case with a verbal. But who cared?

It's interesting because the timing makes me think JD would have liked to have/keep both...but did Perriman a solid after the playing field changed...so to speak. That...or he didn't think the OBJ trade would go through.

Come on guys....it's the time of the year, but could have beens an should have beens aren't productive conversation. Both are based on subjective opinion.

Lets talk about what is and if to speculative, maybe what we need to do.

We can't change what has already happened, no matter how hard we advocate one side or the other..

It was reported that Perriman was signed, then we did the OBJ deal, and Puff, Perriman wanted out

LOL, you're describing about 90% of the threads and posts in Pure Football. Sashi, Depo, Hue, Dorsey ... pro's and con's; football people vs analytics (as if they're mutually exclusive) ... ad infinitum, ad nauseam. It has become boring, predictable, unreadable.

Earlier, I added a post to this thread listing potential free agents hoping it might spur some discussion that was forward looking, instead of the usual, and it turned into a Dorsey critique. Then, after pretty much staying clear of the various bash-fests in Pure Football for a while now, I pipe up with a couple of minor peeves about Dorsey (who I wish was still here), and someone says "Guys, we need to be looking ahead, not backwards. I had to laugh, because that ship sailed some time ago, but all it took was one innocuous complaint about Dorsey from someone who supported him. I'm not criticizing you for saying that, just thinking it could have been said a lot earlier.

Yet Depodesta has used that exact method in both baseball and football. That doesn't mean that is what will happen moving forward. What it does mean is he would have to do a complete 180 moving forward. And people base their opinions on the evidence they have seen, not the predicted theories going forward that in no way resemble what they've seen to this point.

It is true that we can't change what's happened to this point. What we can do is look at what has happened to this point and who is still involved from that past that helped get us to where we were not so long ago.

And the one big mouth guy who isn't here...or anywhere of significance for that matter.

Depo...Berry...Sashi...all employed working for - or with - professional sports teams. Hue?

Yeah, basketball is the same thing.

Maybe you should take a look at the roster they assembled before you laugh. Then you would have something to really laugh about.

Professional basketball...kind of a big deal...all over the world. Check it out.

I'm kind of enjoying watching you twist in the wind over Depo, Berry, Sashi and the still-unemployed Hue...something I rarely do...but for you...I'm making an exception.

I lol every time I read your signature.

It's quite odd you find humor in accuracy. But I think I understand it. Sometimes reality is stranger than fiction.

I agree. In fact don't be surprised if they get rid of some of the big name players Dorsey signed or traded for if they don't meet the new analytical standards.

I disagree.

Zeitler, Tretter, Reiter (he didn't play because of injuries, just won SB w/ KC as their starting center).

That's just off the top of my head. Zeitler is the biggy because they full-on Brinks-Trucked that signing. Most lucrative for a guard, at the time, I believe?

While analytics does tend to tell the purse-string-holders to not sign big-name FA's, analytics also told our FO at the time to hit (interior) Oline hard in FA, which they obviously did.

Re: the blockbuster trades, however.... I think you're right. Dorsey seemed to like to swing those big trades. I'll hold back breaking down my opinion of why I thought he was decently good at it.... but that said, I think I'm ok going back to a more conservative approach to acquiring and retaining players vs a bunch of big newsworthy moves.

I think a lot of things are being attributed to analytics that are just plain common sense. None of us are statisticians, but we know that the Browns need a right guard. We also know the Browns need better offensive tackles, linebackers, and DL backups. Now, statistics may tell us which we need to go for in which order, and which Free Agent may help us more, but all the statistics do is quantify which is needed more, in case there is any doubt.

Arguments happen all time over which is needed more, a Defensive End or a Right Guard, Dorsey felt that a good Defensive End, Vernon, was needed more than a Pro Browl Right Guard, Zeitler. He felt he had RG covered. Mistakes happen. I do not know if statistics would have backed him up or not, we will never know, but it is nice to be able to say that the numbers added up that backed up his choice. Unfortunately, as far as we know, this didn't happen.

I will say that I wasn't too happy about the return of some of the same faces that led the 1-31 campaigns, but my angst is wearing off.

I believe that ESPN article that came out a couple years ago that detailed the dumpster fire that was Berea during the Sashi-Hue era and how Haslam was fighting the fire with gasoline. While I think The Consensus did a pretty poor job with the picks that they did make, in the end their goal was to amass draft/FA ammo at the expense of the win-loss column. You can argue the intention of the mission (I do), but you can't argue they succeeded in their endeavor. From this perspective, I'm trying to give them a chance (maybe when they turn their intention towards actually winning, they'll succeed again).

As for your post, IIRC the data told them 2 things:
1. While the LT is the 'rock star' of the OL, the interior is where the most dangerous pressure comes from (up the gut)
2. It's hard to reliably develop young talent, even though they can be had for cheap.

With the data telling them that, they threw big bucks at those positions. With that, I'm confident they won't be cheap just for being cheap's sake.

Analytics said to trade down in the 2016 draft, and trade down some more.

We had the #2 pick in that draft, and could have drafted Carson Wentz, but instead chose to trade down with the Eagles so they could draft him instead.

We chose to follow analytics, and trade down more and more, getting "more bites at the apple".

Here is what that #2 overall pick turned into .....

Corey Coleman
Shon Coleman
Cody Kessler
Derrick Kindred
Spencer Drango
Ricardo Louis
Jordan Payton
Jabrill Peppers
Deshone Kizer
Denzel Ward
Chad Thomas

Umm ..... we really cleaned up there, didn't we?

I'm still not, and never will be convinced that the pressure your QB can't see coming, which the LT protects him from, is a bigger danger to your QB than the pressure he can see coming.

Trading down and making good picks are not the same thing.

Furthermore, if you are bad at making picks, wouldn't you want to have more picks?

(Everyone hits on less than 50% of their picks. Everyone.)

Well .... on the picks gained from trading away the 2nd overall pick ..... Sashi added ....... ZERO players who contribute to this team.

Dorsey added Ward.

Wow! What a great set of trades!

Ward is an all-pro and Thomas showed a lot of promise this season so it wasn't a total wash ...

Sashi Brown signed Kevin Zeitler as a free agent. At the time it was a record amount of money paid to a guard in free agency. Zeitler became the highest paid guard in the NFL.

Sashi Brown signed Joel Bitonio to a five year, $50 million contract extension. He is the currently the 9th highest paid guard in the league by guarantees (11th by his average annual salary). Bitonio was 27 when he signed his extension.

While in the long run it was a failed transaction, Sashi Brown signed Jamie Collins to a four-year contract extension, worth $50 million, with $26.5 million guaranteed. At the time Collins was the fifth highest paid linebacker.

The trades were good. The picks were bad.

Chad Thomas was the worst rated edge player in all of the NFL according to PFF.