It was publicly stated that all three men would report to Haslam every week. It was reported at the same time. I didn't see the head janitor mentioned. Did you? Yeah, Haslam made it clear that all three reported directly to him. Nobody else.
Yet what are the fans reactions? "Well that doesn't mean anything and Haslam isn't going to be micromanaging anymore."
Ignoring the obvious doesn't change anything.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
It was publicly stated that all three men would report to Haslam every week. It was reported at the same time. I didn't see the head janitor mentioned. Did you? Yeah, Haslam made it clear that all three reported directly to him. Nobody else.
He also didn't say that those three were the ONLY ones reporting to him every week.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
Yet he emphasized those three. It seems so many wish to simply dismiss that. Haslam put them on equal footing when he did that. I suppose he could have said that those three at the top rung of the structure would all meet with him on a weekly basis and it simply doesn't mean anything. I mean that's why they make public statements. Because they're not supposed to mean anything.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Do they all meet with Haslam about the same things ? Or does Depo meet about concessions, about maintenance issues, about contracts, about contractor issues, about the rent Baker pays for living in the stadium All these are issues that Depo has prior experience in.
Then Berry meets with scouting reports, about the Big Board and draft rankings, as well as interviews with coach staff.
Then Stephanski meets with Haslam about team roster needs, health of players, and progress on offensive and defensive setups. All 3 reporting to Haslam over their areas of expertise.
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
They all meet with him because they all have a set of responsibilities deemed important to the success of the organization.
You keep beating some drum that they have equal footing and equal power.
So, does everybody that meets with JH have equal power?
We get it. You want to pound it into everyone's head that DePo has too much say, Haslam is too nosy and this is some extreme deviant "structure". Since none of us here are privy to what goes on behind closed doors, it's all conjecture.
Can anyone tell us what Depodesta does to improve player talent?
I can answer that one. He does NOTHING, because that's not his job no matter how much you try claim it is. I'm waiting for you to blame Chris Stanley because we went 1-31 over 2 seasons.
gm...Depo has been in the draft room every year since 2016. ...he fired the "football scouts" ...set the draft strategy to get more bites of the apple, but more bites of apple are useless if can't judge talent. Of the 14 picks, 3 have turned out to be decent football players.
The 2016 draft room was dominated with analytics types running the show.
I believe the bottom line on Depodesta...he has been allowed by Haslam to have too much control over the franchise and has "never" been held responsible or accountable for anything he has done.
In Haslam's eyes, Depodesta can do no wrong...matter of fact, Haslam promotes and rewards Depo for brown nosing his way to more control over the franchise.
I believe most fans just want someone who actually knows football, to take control and finish building what was started two years ago.
I don't want to see this team torn down so Depodesta can play Moneyball 2.0. Over half the work has been done for the Moneyballers, surely this group can finish the work.
...but I have zero confidence in Haslam and Depodesta.
BTW, if Depodesta did nothing, the team and front office would benefit greatly.
We get it. You want to pound it into everyone's head that DePo has too much say
Actually that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying there's a reason that it was announced at the same time that all three men would meet with Haslam on a weekly basis.
What I find amazing in all of this is that people are saying that we will be more analytics based but are trying to dismiss that the top analytics guy in the organization will meet with the owner every week just like the HC and GM will.
If in fact we are going to a more analytics based way of doing things, it actually makes perfect sense to conclude that Depo will have a lot of say in the process. Those two things are not in conflict with each other.
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Haslam is too nosy and this is some extreme deviant "structure". Since none of us here are privy to what goes on behind closed doors, it's all conjecture.
Once again you are spouting gibberish that I have never said. It has been pointed out in that past however that Haslam has asked employees about each other which in the end has tended to pit them against each other. Let's all hope he's learned his lesson.
Some conjecture makes sense and some not so much.
Can you give some conjecture that makes sense that would indicate why we would be moving to a more analytics based structure and somehow our top analytics guy wouldn't be an extremely important cog in the wheel?
I mean before you go making more baseless accusations about things I never said.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Can you give some conjecture that makes sense that would indicate why we would be moving to a more analytics based structure and somehow our top analytics guy wouldn't be an extremely important cog in the wheel?
I mean before you go making more baseless accusations about things I never said.
No one has claimed he isn't important. That's another of your baseless claims.
He gathers data and tries to improve processes (often involved in gathering data.) He's not picking players. He's been in the draft room to provide and gather data. Interviewing a coach/GM is a data gathering process, of course he is involved. He doesn't have and has never had the final say in picking people. Did Haslam listen to his input this time? Yes. Has he always listened to him in the past? No. (Hue, Freddie)
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
Looking at the two teams in Super Bowl today...I wonder how much they rely on "analytics"
In Cleveland, Depodesta is listed as the #3 man in the franchise, behind the owners. Depodesta wants to be the GM and in many respects, he already has more power over the franchise than the guy just hired to be the GM, Berry.
Having the analytics guy with 4 yrs of NFL experience studing NFL numbers, sitting in on coaching hires and front office hires...I do believe Depo is more than an analytics guy.
Looking at the two teams in Super Bowl today...I wonder how much they rely on "analytics"
In Cleveland, Depodesta is listed as the #3 man in the franchise, behind the owners. Depodesta wants to be the GM and in many respects, he already has more power over the franchise than the guy just hired to be the GM, Berry.
Knowing everything I know about Shanahan and Saleh, I'd bet they're pretty progressive. Depo isn't just involved in analytics, and analytics are more than what you seem to think they are, though. Analytics aren't the only processes that Depo is trying to improve. Constant improvement is analytical, even if not labeled analytics.
Depo is listed between Haslam, the GM, and the HC. He provides info to and gathers data from all of them.
He doesn't want to be GM. If he wanted to be GM, he'd have told his alleged best buddy (according to some), Jimmy, to hire him for the job. He likes his current job just fine, which he explains here:
Looking at the two teams in Super Bowl today...I wonder how much they rely on "analytics"
A lot.
Originally Posted By: mac
In Cleveland, Depodesta is listed as the #3 man in the franchise, behind the owners. Depodesta wants to be the GM and in many respects, he already has more power over the franchise than the guy just hired to be the GM, Berry.
No one has claimed he isn't important. That's another of your baseless claims.
Then can you explain what the hell it is we're debating about?
All I have been saying is that Dpodesta now has a seat at the head table. One of the three that report directly to Haslam on a weekly basis. That he is one of the top voices in Haslam's ear. That analytics will be given more leverage in the decision making process. As such, Depodesta has that seat at the table.
I mean on one hand people will say that the reason these guys were hired is because they all believe in analytics has great value in a system. That they were hired because everyone can work together as a group. Then as soon as someone says their input is equal, people claim suddenly it isn't.
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He gathers data and tries to improve processes (often involved in gathering data.) He's not picking players. He's been in the draft room to provide and gather data. Interviewing a coach/GM is a data gathering process, of course he is involved. He doesn't have and has never had the final say in picking people. Did Haslam listen to his input this time? Yes. Has he always listened to him in the past? No. (Hue, Freddie)
I know we live in a society where anyone with an opposing or different opinion begin to all be lumped together. But you may wish to consider that I'm not the one who claimed Depodesta is suddenly taking over the team. Nor have I indicated that his duties with the team have changed. What I am saying is that it's a very silly debate to be waging that will rely heavily on analytics while saying the input that Depodesta has in his role isn't magnified.
But people can't on one hand say we are now going to focus on a more analytics based system and on the other hand claim that our top analytics guy won't be given an equal voice at the table.
Or maybe they can but that doesn't make a lot of sense.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Depodesta had a say in hiring the HC and in the GM. For anyone to think that he doesn't have a loud voice in this operation is flat out crazy.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I am too. I am still glad he has a voice. His is a voice of support. He isn't the guy making the picks, but I understand your point. He does have input. All three have some degree of ownership.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
If they can work together and build a winning product that would be great for all of us that have waited so long. It's just that after going through this for 20 years I'm just a little gun shy at this point.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Depodesta had a say in hiring the HC and in the GM. For anyone to think that he doesn't have a loud voice in this operation is flat out crazy.
This is pretty much it in a nutshell.
Is that good or bad?
Whether it's good or bad Haslam is the ultimate wild card. It could be good but Haslam will make it bad.
Or it could be bad all on its own.
I cannot stress this enough...alignment without competence means nothing. And alignment was just a fancy catchphrase for Haslam to be able to meddle. He could have gotten rid of Depo and kept Dorsey, Wolf, and Highsmith and stepped aside and let them do their jobs. That would have also been alignment. But Haslam would have probably had to concede some involvement and that was a non starter. So now you have alignment and no experience and an overly involved owner.
As a fan I hope it works. I'm tired of rooting for losers.
If they can work together and build a winning product that would be great for all of us that have waited so long. It's just that after going through this for 20 years I'm just a little gun shy at this point.
I understand. My attitude is one failure doesn't predict the next. Everything is stand alone.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Depodesta had a say in hiring the HC and in the GM. For anyone to think that he doesn't have a loud voice in this operation is flat out crazy.
This is pretty much it in a nutshell.
Is that good or bad?
Whether it's good or bad Haslam is the ultimate wild card. It could be good but Haslam will make it bad.
Or it could be bad all on its own.
I cannot stress this enough...alignment without competence means nothing. And alignment was just a fancy catchphrase for Haslam to be able to meddle. He could have gotten rid of Depo and kept Dorsey, Wolf, and Highsmith and stepped aside and let them do their jobs. That would have also been alignment. But Haslam would have probably had to concede some involvement and that was a non starter. So now you have alignment and no experience and an overly involved owner.
As a fan I hope it works. I'm tired of rooting for losers.
That is your version of alignment. Mine is with what we have today.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
What we have today is a first time head coach, first time GM, an analytics guy with enough power to influence football decisions (as witnessed by the recent hires), and the worst (and most meddlesome) owner in all of sports. I'll also add the analytics guy has no track record of success in the NFL.
Did I miss anything? What do you think we have today?
A first time head coach with an extensive career in dealing with players, coaching, coordinating, and play calling. A GM whose job it was, for 7 years to scout prospects! Then manage a team as president. A data guy, who no-one on this board knows what he provides for the team.
What we have today is a first time head coach, first time GM, an analytics guy with enough power to influence football decisions (as witnessed by the recent hires), and the worst (and most meddlesome) owner in all of sports. I'll also add the analytics guy has no track record of success in the NFL.
Did I miss anything? What do you think we have today?
That's one way to look at it.
You could also say we've got a guy who has usually been right in Depo, and Jimmy finally listened to him and gave him his coach and GM at the same time.
*shrug* We'll see how it goes. I'll try to send positive, but not over confident, energy towards Berea.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
A first time head coach with an extensive career in dealing with players, coaching, coordinating, and play calling.
Who? Stefanski has a 19 game resume as an OC/play caller. That's hardly extensive. That's not much more experience than Freddie had when he he became head coach.
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A GM whose job it was, for 7 years to scout prospects! Then manage a team as president.
Umm ... when was Berry a President?
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A data guy, who no-one on this board knows what he provides for the team.
I’m ok with this.
Yep. No one knows, except for the last round.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I'm not here regularly enough, but who's claiming he won't be given an equal voice?
The way I see it, there won't be any one meeting or at least very few where all 3 heads will have "equal" say. I fully expect each of them to have more influence than the others depending on the time of year and where they are in their process.
In the off season during the player acquisition phase I can totally see Berry and DePo having more influence than Stefansky. Because that is when the player analytics are front and center.
During the season I can see Stefansky and DePo having a little more influence than Berry as Berry's role will then be more of player/coach assessment with Stefansky coming up with game plans informed by the data presented from DePo.
Again, I've always seen DePo's role as that of providing information to make informed decisions. Despite mac's insinuations, he doesn't want to be the one making the player decisions.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things." -Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
I found this video last night that was posted only recently (Jan 2, 2020).
It's pretty long at nearly 40 minutes but it's a really good presentation by DePo about the basic process of what he has been doing, to include challenges they faced when implementing it in Oakland. It really doesn't talk about what they are currently doing with the Browns, but when you listen to the hurdles they had to overcome, I think they are lessons learned for what they are trying to do in Berea.
A couple high lights:
-His presentation doesn't actually start until about the 8 minute mark -He talks about humility being a key component, a serious humility that it takes to take a step back and ask questions about what they are doing, why they are doing it, and if it can be better -He talks about the challenge of trying to introduce the concept to the experienced traditional types within the organization and how to bring them on board -He talks about how analytics isn't going to get it right all the time.
Oh, in the beginning the presenter shows video of hundreds if not thousands of people waiting in line at this conference of MIT types hoping for 5 minutes with among a handful of people, Browns execs hoping to get a job
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things." -Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
gm...Depo has been in the draft room every year since 2016
Yes he was.
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he fired the "football scouts"
Yea right, and I am 7 foot tall, skinny, handsome as hell, and well endowed.
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set the draft strategy to get more bites of the apple, but more bites of apple are useless if can't judge talent. Of the 14 picks, 3 have turned out to be decent football players.
Was he involved in the discussion on the draft strategy.... yes, as were many others. Did he set the strategy..... no more than you or I did.
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I believe the bottom line on Depodesta...he has been allowed by Haslam to have too much control over the franchise and has "never" been held responsible or accountable for anything he has done.
I know your beliefs are wrong.
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In Haslam's eyes, Depodesta can do no wrong...matter of fact, Haslam promotes and rewards Depo for brown nosing his way to more control over the franchise.
Wrong again bro.
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I believe most fans just want someone who actually knows football, to take control and finish building what was started two years ago.
Some do I can agree with that. But MOST fans don't care who we hire as long as we WIN. BTW the plan started 4 years ago. not two years ago.
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I don't want to see this team torn down so Depodesta can play Moneyball 2.0.
No worries there since Depo is not in charge.
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...but I have zero confidence in Haslam and Depodesta.
Now you can use the term "I believe most fans" as I agree that most fans have zero confidence in Jimmy.
Actually that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying there's a reason that it was announced at the same time that all three men would meet with Haslam on a weekly basis.
Depo's job was set up from day one in 2016 so that he reported directly to Jimmy. It's been that way for 4 years, it's not something new for this year.
In Cleveland, Depodesta is listed as the #3 man in the franchise, behind the owners. Depodesta wants to be the GM and in many respects, he already has more power over the franchise than the guy just hired to be the GM, Berry.
Funny since we have 4 owners Dee, Jimmy, Whitney, and JW.
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Having the analytics guy with 4 yrs of NFL experience studing NFL numbers, sitting in on coaching hires and front office hires...I do believe Depo is more than an analytics guy.
Your right he is not just an analytics guy. He is our Chief Strategy Officer.
Found some information that answers the question...How much analytics do the Chiefs and 9ers rely on?..
KANSAS CITY CHIEFS Coach Andy Reid’s traditional background, having worked under Mike Holmgren and Ron Wolf on his way up, might fool you. He’s progressive, which is reflected in the way the franchise has grown over the last few years. Coming from Philadelphia, perhaps the league’s most analytically inclined franchise over the last two decades, Reid brought Mike Frazier, now the team’s statistical analysis coordinator, from Philly with him. With GM John Dorsey departed, the next scouting boss will inherit three analysts. As one staffer put it, “We’re still 85 percent Atlanta Braves (touch it, smell it, feel it) and 15 percent Oakland Athletics.”
SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS Chief strategy officer Paraag Marathe is a pioneer in analytics, and the Niners continue to invest in it. Director of football administration Brian Hamptonoversees a four-man staff headlined by football research and development analyst Kwesi Adofo-Mensah. And the team is very advanced in business analytics. Yet Marathe would tell you that, even after all these years, analytics is still largely a supplement to the football side’s traditional methods of running a team. L
Yea right, and I am 7 foot tall, skinny, handsome as hell, and well endowed.
Wait, so you're saying he *did* fire the football scouts?
Several Browns scouts high on Carson Wentz were reportedly fired before the draft
by Rob Tornoe, Posted: September 18, 2016
The successful debut of Eagles rookie quarterback Carson Wentz and the loss of starting quarterback Robert Griffin III to injury have combined to flood Browns fans in a wave of buyer's remorse.
After all, the Browns entered the off-season in desperate need of a franchise quarterback, and could have drafted Wentz with the second overall draft pick. But the team's new chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta preferred Jared Goff, and didn't think Wentz was "good enough to be a top 20 quarterback in the NFL."
So when the Rams made it clear they were selecting Goff with the first pick in the draft, the Browns traded away their pick to the Eagles in exchange a number of draft picks in a deal Pro Football Focus initially rated an A for Cleveland and a C+ for Philadelphia.
Now, it seems not everyone who worked for the Browns agreed with DePodesta's assessment of Wentz.
CBS NFL Insider Jason La Canfora reports that the Browns fired six members of their scouting team just three weeks before the draft, even though their contracts were set to expire after the draft.
La Canfora also reports that the scouts that were let go disagreed with the team's newly-empowered analytics department and DePodesta that Goff was a greater pro prospect that Wentz. L
La Canfora also reports that the scouts that were let go disagreed with the team's newly-empowered analytics department and DePodesta that Goff was a greater pro prospect that Wentz. L
But was it the reason they were let go?
Or was it just a cherry picked fact?
Did they ask to be let go because they didn't want to change the way they scouted to something more analytical?
Did they also pound the table for the guys that didn't meet analytical thresholds and failed miserably here?
Did the players they graded consistently end up getting drafted later than their grades?
I'm pretty sure they didn't get fired just for disagreeing on one player. The way they showed their disagreement? Perhaps.
If you call the guy you work for a nerd and say he didn't draft real football players, he probably won't keep you around.
*shrug*
Last edited by Bull_Dawg; 02/03/2010:41 AM. Reason: Probably should reword some of that based on the timing, but I'm still waking up and need coffee
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
If numbers guys want to do my taxes or give me financial advice that's fine. When it comes to sports however, I don't trust them to build a winning team. We shall see.
La Canfora also reports that the scouts that were let go disagreed with the team's newly-empowered analytics department and DePodesta that Goff was a greater pro prospect that Wentz. L
1st off Depo didn't let a single one of them go. 2nd some of them thought Wentz was was going to be a franchise QB, and others didn't . Aligo, Depaul, Hagen, Holland, Kirkland, and Ritcher all had contracts that were expiring after the draft anyway. I know a couple of them, and I gaurante you Depo didn't fire them.
All these are issues that Depo has prior experience in.
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