DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Honest question on abortion

He don’t need to show us who u are ... u do a fine job of that all by yourself ...

Yes sir, for one.

Glad to know I still live rent free in your head.

I support woman's rights. I also support men's rights, and babies rights. You however want to discriminate only woman and not men, or children

It's not a fallacy.. things are always moving in one direction or the other, few things remain stagnant.

Doesn't matter which side you are on politically, if you oppose something you cite the slippery slope examples.. if you are for it, you mock those who cite slippery slope examples.. that's the way it's always been.. but very few things just stay where they are.

Remember 20 years ago when the rage was about gay rights and it was just about fundamental rights of gay people to wed, have property rights, hospital visitation rights, etc? That's all they wanted? Slippery slope arguments of where does it go from here were mocked and considered stupid.. all they wanted were basic rights for gay people..... Well, 9 genders, 21 sexual orientations, and people getting fired for using the wrong pronouns later.. here we are.

Except that fundamental rights occasionally get denied to those in the LGBTQ+ community.

Once again, making laws based on unproven dogma is against the very fabric and foundation of our country. I won’t use agnosticism to prevent you practicing from religion, so I’d expect anyone from any faith would do the same to me in public.

Believe what you want, just don’t control my life.

I also remember many of you arguing during that time “but then they’ll want to marry animals, marry toasters, marry kids, etc.” I could provide you receipts for those exact posts to where I constantly replied with an infographic. Those were slippery slope fallacies by many of those against same-sex rights, and none of those things have happened.

Honest question bro. Why do you think everybody who is against abortion is only against it due to religion?

Since I believe you’re asking sincerely...

My research and personal experience on this comes down to individuals making a value judgement on this topic. By no means am I trying to offend any of you when I say this, yet what truly constitutes as life? Science struggles a bit with this and even I myself am not sure.

After growing up in a version of Christianity with institutionalized racism, bigotry towards the lgbtq+ crowd, and wanting to keep women in their place...that’s where I’m at. Those in my life, along with what I’ve read up on this subject, always cling to religious based arguments by trying to define life through a higher power.

I respect your wish to have a different opinion on this issue than I do, yet I’ll probably never be one of the pro-life people due to the dogma that seems to be the back bone of the argument.

In general, I think many of the sticking points in this debate lie on previously mentioned slippery slopes. Because of that, many well-intentioned debates are doomed. It's unfortunate.

For me, I can't support taking heavy choices like these out of the hands of people that they're going to effect. I think a woman should have authority over what goes on in her body, even if that affects a baby. That baby can't speak for itself, so its mother should be the one to do so. I think the last person to decide what goes on in a woman's body is some crusty old man who has an office in a federal building. Even if they end up making a terrible decision, it's their decision to make.

Ummmm....ok, boomer.

You throw the ‘men not having choice’ argument in frequently as though the dudes knocking up women are all out to reproduce every time they bed one. My guess is a large cross section of the women seeking abortions are driven there by their significant other that’s also freaked out and not wanting to become a parent. I know I would have been the driver and paid my half, or in full if needed, back when I wasn’t shooting blanks. Stop assuming the dudes are not in the know.
Oh, and, it’s not a child. It’s a zygote/cell cluster/fetus.
To add, I don’t give my nieces or nephews at five years old huge life choices to make for other people. Why would I give a zygote more power than them?

Seems to be right to me,

I see entirely too many people wanting to stop abortion, showing pictures of a fetus, calling it murder..

But in the end, programs are being cut as we speak by the VERY people that say they are against all abortion no matter what. Those that would actually criminalize it,, those that would require Doctors that perform an abortion be arrested.

Those that would close down Planned Parenthood facilities or threaten those that work there when about 3% of what they do is related to Abortion.

The other 97% relates to health services for poor people that otherwise would receive NO Care at all... Quite a bit of what they do is help expectant mothers go through the entire birth.

It's clear to me that those that support Trump don't really care. They are single or double issue voters... They worry about Abortion and they worry about Prayer in School (don't even get me started on that)

But, hey,, these same Trumpians complained about the Deficit and Debt under Obama. Even given the fact that during his admin we had to dig out of the mess that Bush and his Cronies left us with. (funny, you never heard him speak of the previous Admin the way That Trump does, in fact, in my lifetime, I've never heard anything like the BS that comes out of Trump)

But look,,, The deficit is climbing at an alarming rate, the debt is climbing at an alarming rate,, and for some damn reason, it's perfectly OK.....

it's not just an ODD situation, it's an idiotic one.

I read somewhere today that using that phrase is agist and discriminatory.

We know about conception, when the heart starts to beat, when the brain is developed, when it's viable.. we have all that data... people (inside and outside of the science community) just disagree and they probably always will.


So you will never be pro-life because you don't want to side with the Christians?

When I was younger and not yet a Christian I was 110 percent against abortion. Yet I heard the same arguments you or others present today. That I am trying to shove my religious beliefs down their throats.

I have ZERO ill will towards anybody who disagrees with me. I understand their point of view and I respect it. However do you really think those who disagree with me show the same respect?

You were once a baby. Do you think it was OK to murder you just because you clouldn't talk yet? If you do why do you not support killing a baby when the wife is 9 months pregnant and ready to give birth?

I know we bash heads all the time over this subject and that's fine with me bro. I still respect you and I do listen to your reasons for why you feel like you do. We just disagree and that's cool with me. We also agree on many other subjects.

You always want to call the baby a zygote/cell cluster/ or a fetus WHY..... IMO it's because you don't want to admit it's killing babies. It's much easier for you do deny that than to admit the truth. (once again IMO)



You also don't murder them. Why is that??? You have no problem killing them off when they are in the womb, yet you draw the line at killing them after they come out of the womb. They are the same in either case.

If one of your nieces or nephews was ever in a bad accident and unable to communicate, you would assume they wanted to live and rush them to care... you don't give the baby that same consideration.

It's more of an agnostic thing. I'm not anti-Christain. I actually considered being a pastor in my youth.

I want proof. I have a hard time relying on just faith. I'll accept any religion once there is verifiable proof beyond "just believe" or "hey, it can't hurt to believe".

I hope you understand. It's nothing personal, and I try to aspire to stick to proven facts rather than the dogma.

People will probably be disrespectful towards you. People should remain as tolerant of differing views as this is how we learn.

I'm not sure if you're calling on me to police those who are idelogically similar to me? If you are, I'll do that when others start policing those who try to sow dissension and chaos around here.

You come across as not liking Christians IMO Maybe I am wrong. But that's how I read your posts. I personally have zero problems with you on a personal level. We just disagree about God. I do however wish nothing but great things for you and your better half

I understand and I have no hard feelings... but there is a reason they call it "faith".. if there was proof, it would be easy.

It just bothers me when people are on the road to faith and have it blown up by PEOPLE around them who don't live into their faith.. it bothers me because those people weren't abandoned by God, their faith was ruined by other people... or people who rely on the media which is quick to report on church scandals, while never reporting on churches good work.

I'll give you an example.. my 16 y.o. daughter has a friend who is transgender (born a female) he goes by Calvin. Her parents are the kind of Christians you defined earlier. Both of Calvin's older siblings are gay, got kicked out of the house as soon as they made that public. A few weeks ago my daughter called me in a panic... Calvin's father decided to see what this social media thing was all about, got into Facebook and found Calvin's page... Calvin was outed. Dad called Calvin a litany of horrible things and told him he was gone (at 16 years old) as soon as the mom got home. Calvin's only family is in Florida and Chicago.

It took a little prying to get my daughter to ask me the question but finally she did.. and I said yes, of course Calvin could stay with us, at least for a week or two so he could figure out what he was going to do long term. Obviously as a junior, Calvin wants to finish school with his friends... well fortunately Calvin's mom must have stood up because Calvin was allowed to stay at home so nothing had to be done (for now)... I can't imagine how painfully awkward it must be living in that house with a father who called you "an abomination"...

But my point is, if this was one of those things that hit the news and went viral..... who do you think the news is going to focus on? The Christian who kicked Calvin out... or the Christian who took Calvin in?

isnt the part the news focuses on based on the atmosphere of the country?

because to be honest, i can see a lot more of Calvin's father around the country than Calvin's mom.

and abandoned by god is most certainly by perspective, because people reference God's book as a justification to their beliefs, right?

so if people are learning through the bible that trans/gay is an abomination, and the bible is the word of God......well 2 +2 = they were abandoned by God.

In my walk of life, I've met just as many far right Christians as I've met center to leaning left Christians.

The United Church of Christ has a large LGBTQ+ outreach wing. They're a decent denomination

in my time so far, ive seen a bunch of scumbags, and others who you dont know their beliefs because they smartly keep their nonsense to themselves.

I saw more once liberal Christians once I broke away from my church, so I totally get where you're coming from.

Wow. My church is UCC. Well, was. Years back the congregation voted to leave the UCC due to the UCC's acceptance of gays.

Not one thing has changed though. We still have gays attend, every Sunday.

I can absolutely see both sides. I grew up Mennonite. Divorce was cause for being, in a sense, shunned.

Let's just say isolation, or ignorance was the impetus.

Having a son that even at the age of 4 made me wonder "what? Why's he like that?" He had the same upbringing I did.

It was one thing back then to look at gays as "not normal", but times are changing. Probably not quick enough, but they are changing.

Ad I've told several people recently, I won't judge others on a religious basis until I'm perfect, so don't hold your breath.

I WILL, however, disagree with people.

did your dad have a super long beard?

No, we were (they are) Mennonite, not Amish or Dunkard. The Mennonite church has come a long way, truthfully. In high school, my dad was the first Mennonite around here to play h.s. basketball. Probably not far enough have they come, but they are moving.

Which reminds me: A number of years ago I did some work for a Dunkard family. I got done, and the wife and I were talking about whatever, and a topic came up. And I said "So, how do the DRUMKards feel about......." Total slip on my part, and I said as much. She just laughed.

a boomer probably said that because, you know, they like to go on about how great their generation is and blah, blah, blah.

Nah. It's a real thing apparently.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-saying-ok-boomer-at-work-can-be-age-discrimination/

So, you enlightened libs best be forewarned. It's not just you that get to be offended by stupid things.

Anyone who doesn’t know slippery slopes are real is in denial.

You conflated slippery slope as a phenomenon and as a fallacy

Because Libs conflate EVERYTHING

Cool. But, we are not at work...this is a football message board and GM said a totally ridiculous comment in response to my post so it deserved a ridiculous reply.

Nah., It's a lesson that people "need" to take to heart: In todays liberal world, ANY phrase or statement can cause "damage, harm, etc", and can be used back against the sayer, regardless. Hey, it's your world, I'm just living in it trying to play by your rules,. (not you specifically)

Ok, boomer.

(even though I know you are prob Gen X).

sorry you don't know the difference between a slippery slope and a slippery slope argument fallacy

a Slipppery slope, not to be confused with a slippery slope fallacy, is a dangerous and progressive course.

So you did an equivocation fallacy.



https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/slippery-slope

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/slippery+slope

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/slippery-slope

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/slippery-slope

Yes it is a real thing. Some people don't know the difference between a slippery slope and a slippery slope fallacy. They need to consult a dictionary. Plenty of good ones online that give a definition of slippery slope. Example, I personally was on the slippery slope of drug abuse until God set me free

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/slippery-slope

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/slippery+slope

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/slippery-slope

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/slippery-slope

It's a slippery slope of him equivocating. Doesn't know the difference between a slippery slope and a slippery slope fallacy. You both need to buy a dictionary

Well said. People need to think through their arguments.

I really don't know what/how I am labeled. And I don't care. Just saying, when you toss out labels, be aware dome people will judge you on that. If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander, and right now, in my best liberal stance, you come across as an ageist.

See how easy it is to toss names?