DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Andrew Berry & FO Continued

I agree Da-man, it silly stuff. You are another. We have been brothers for 20 years or more. Sometimes brother beat the crap out of each other. At least that is how it worked with my brothers, but we still loved each other.

As the oldest brother, I could do that all day long to them, but if someone else did, "Houston, we have a problem".

The problem with this statement is, they are "the old ones".




So he built a roster that almost everyone across the country said had great talent, but he hired the wrong coach. Yeah, when you don't bat 1000 run the man out on a rail.




Every GM in the NFL wishes they had some do overs.




This is the kind of response you get from a person who wishes to accentuate a mistake without pointing out all of the good to try and make a point.

Once you see the results from this group you may wish Dorsey was back and had a chance to hire another HC. You may end up chewing on posts like these for a long time. Maybe until death.

This is not true.

I was speaking in response to the ongoing debate that the "analytics guys" wanted Trubinsky and the implication that it took a Herculean effort by Hue Jackson to prevent it.

I should be more careful with spelling out context in full sentences in the future, since parts of posts seem to be cherry picked a lot around here.

The rumors that that the Browns wanted to draft Trubisky and changed their mind because Huey cried like a spoiled brat and hung MG posters in Jimmy's office came out in the ESPN article on Jan 24, 2019.

I guess if you consider a spoiled brat someone who helped us dodge a bullet, I agree.

Nah... there was no bullet there in the first place, we were drafting Myles Garrett.

Dodging a bullet is making sure aforementioned spoiled brat doesn't trade a high 2nd round pick for a career b/u QB - hats off to Sashi for that one.

2nd AND a 3rd!!!

Did Hue help us dodge a bullet? Sounds more like he almost pushed us into a bullet because, according to some on here, the analytics guys would do anything just to spite the football guys. If that was the case, drafting Trubisky would have been a great way of getting rid of Hue. Fortunately, doing things to spite the other side has only actually been a "football guy" move, and the football Bros are gone now.

I guess that all depends on who you wish to believe. You are no different by asserting things you have no way of actually knowing.

I wasn't asserting anything. I was trying to illustrate how ridiculous that style of argument was. I thought about spelling it out, but figured the eye roll emoji was enough. I should have known better.

Of course, if I had spelled it out, I'm sure you'd still have seen something you didn't like or made something up completely that you could complain about.

Combine can't come soon enough. It'll be nice to have something substantive to consider.

Next, they will be telling us that someone did a voice over on Depo and he never really said that Wentz wasn't a top 20 qb. Then, we'll hear how D. Watson was really not available when the Browns traded the 12th overall pick. They'll say things like C. Coleman was good pick, but just ruined by Hue. Or maybe, that the Kizer, Kessler, Hogan QB room was actually very good and the coaching was the problem. They might tell us that Britt, Coleman, and Louis were a great WR corps.

Sometimes, this board is like reading a Fantasy novel.

Because Depodesta is still here.

Evidently some believe this is a reversion to the time when those two were here (it's not).

Yeah, old Bull Dawg has been on a roll lately. He thinks attacking the messenger makes him special. It's becomng quite a habit of his. It's quite unbecoming of one who has convinced himself how intelligent he is.

Yeah, when you point things out it tends to anger the crowd.

U were right .... what’s changed?

- HOPEFULLY Bake learned an important lesson last year and works his arse off this off season ... i was wrong about a lot last year and that started with Bake’s work ethic ... i thought he had a great one and he’d work hard ... he admitted as much that he didn’t .. u were right about that also ...

Hopefully he puts the time in and is capable of learning how to read D’s .. some folks just can’t process info fast enough ... hopefully he can ... if not, case closed and nuttin else really matters cause he will never be more than a one read qb and that is easy peazy to defend ...



Turns out u were right ... based off his pedigree and what he did with the O in 18 I thought he had a good chance ... problem is he was way worse than either of us thought ... being worse than i thought was an easy bar to clear but u had it set pretty high and he cleared it easily .. *L* ... he forgot everything he knew about running an O and calling plays from the year before ...

What’s changed .... I’m afraid to say this but I can’t see Kev being near as bad .. he doesn’t have the years of experience or the endorsements from some of the best ever but unless he goes brain dead were in better hands than we were last year ... hopefully much much better ones .. *L* ..

I also all ready like his DC more than the moron we had in here last year ... i was dead wrong about that also ... i thought maybe COMMON SENSE would prevail ... why we hired Wilkes is beyond me ... he took Ward and Greedy and made them play a ton of zone ... that’s the exact opposite of utilizing their talent ... the interview would have ended then if it were me ... it could have been done over the phone .. *L* ...



I don’t think that had a thing to do with last years debacle unless u want to throw Bake’s attitude in the mix ... his attitude last off season cost us dearly ...

As u we’ll know winning cures a lot of ills and I don’t believe the # of new players or how strong willed they were or how much the pups had experienced losing ... i thought Freddie, Bake, Wilkes, injuries, stupidity and penalties led to the crap we saw last year ...

The one thing that hasn’t changed YET is the talent is still there ... hopefully that a few good additions and coaching do the trick ... KJ certainly lest one hell of a foundation regardless of what the dolls are saying and i have no clue what there saying ... i haven’t been on or reading much ... i only posted this cause i told u i would ...

Thanks for responding, Diam. Good post.

Did you make it back to SC okay?

Let me begin by saying I wasn't asking to see who was wrong or right on Baker, Freddie, and team chemistry. I just thought they were the three most important factors on how well the Browns played. I was asking if you agreed that those were the three biggest factors in how the Browns performed last year.

I feel like I am not stating that right. I am saying that I didn't say Baker and Freddie would fail. I just thought that both would either lead us to the top or be the main source of our struggles. I'll get to the chemistry thing in a bit.

I'll start w/Baker. I think this team has as much talent as any in the league. Dorsey did a great job of assembling a talented roster. I actually considered placing a bet on Baker being the league's MVP last year. LOL...no kidding. I still think he has a chance to be very good due to his moxie and arm talent. I just think his attitude is terrible, he panics too early in the pocket, and he can't read coverages. He did a bad job w/blocking protections, too. Thus, I still think that he is biggest key to the team this upcoming year.

Coaching: I agree w/you that it can't get much worse than Freddie, but the new dude has never been a HC and his personality does not seem suited to handling large egos and big personalities. Hell, he couldn't handle Diggs, Theilan, and Cousins. The "Yes Man" part of his duties is troublesome. He might be a great HC. He might not be. Thus, I think the HC is still a huge factor in how the team does this year.

Chemistry: When I talked about chemistry, I wasn't really referring to how guys got along. I was referring to all the new pieces, some egos, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, a team who had to overcome a terrible losing culture that was the result of the Analytics guys thinking this was baseball or basketball. I told you when that group first came here that it's just so hard to overcome a losing culture in football. Additionally, we didn't have many guys on the roster who won a lot. That hurts when things get tough. Further compounding the problem was that there were such high expectations for the team. Thus, I questioned how the team would react if they struggled early on. I think that was a huge key to the season. I think it should be a big part of this season, as well.

I think all three keys are still question marks for this upcoming season. Nothing has been answered. We still have a QB who we are not certain as to how he plays. We still have a HC and staff that has a ton of question marks. And we probably still have a locker room that could melt down just as easily as unite.

There is another caveat for this upcoming season. Yes, we still have great talent....but, the guys who made one poor roster decision after another are back in charge. Who the hell knows what the hell of an influence they will make? Can you imagine if they start making stupid cuts and trades again? These guys [according to players on the team like Joe Thomas] don't understand a locker room.

Unless we go on a fire sale and get rid of guys like Chubb for beans, in my opinion I think you might be over estimating the impact of cutting players. I think if we were shown anything last year is that there was no singular person that the entire team rallied around. I'm just having a hard time picturing which of these guys on the roster is so popular that it would have such a demoralizing effect beyond the annual "it's a business" player response.

For me the most important component is going to be Stefanski. Its going to be his job to keep whomever is not let go focused and ready for the next play. Just like when a player goes gets hurt during the game.

Just what kind of and how effective of a leader will Stefanski be is something you've previously questioned and rightly so. But if he's doing his job well, DePo, Berry.. even Jimmy... it really won't matter what they are doing as the team will be insulated by Stefanski.

Unless they bring in some real d-bag type players with craptastic attitudes.

But we'll see.

You may want to continue to criticize them for 1-31 and that's your prerogative, but while those players may have lacked in talent, many of them were high character, hard working types. I don't think that was an accident.

I'll try and be more clear. I am not over or under-estimating anything. I am not speaking about things that are known, as in this guy is good or this guy is bad. The entire premise of a series of posts is about question marks moving forward. Things that will be key to success/failure of the team next season.

I don't remember if it was on this thread or another, but in a previous post I mentioned that the previous rendition of this FO was not afraid to spend in FA when the numbers told them to do so. I brought up Zeitler as an example, and cited from memory an article about the thought process that gave KZ that behemoth (at the time) contract.

I have been trying to dig up the article where I read it, but ultimately failed. The OBJ/Vernon trade kind of washed away a lot of the older stuff. Here is the best I could find.

https://lastwordonprofootball.com/2017/05/03/sashi-brown-turning-browns-around/

There's a paragraph near the bottom mentioning how OL was hard to evaluate in the draft, which is why Sashi and co. decided to lock it down in FA (Zeitler, Tretter, Bitonio extension).

Thanks for finding this! It's definitely an interesting read but I don't know if I reach the same conclusions in reading it that you do. I think Sashi Brown's front office signed Tretter and Zeitler because there were huge holes at their positions and it was a bad offensive line draft (according to the article you posted). Overall I think the article was a little too simplistic in what the "numbers" actually mean.

It wasn't the article I recalled, but it was the closest I could find. It mentioned that drafting linemen was tough (in any draft), which partially informed the decision to address the line via FA.

As for the article itself, I'm not a fan of the piece as a whole, but there are informative nuggets sprinkled throughout.

I think probably what makes drafting lineman so tough is what appears to me to be a consistent over estimating just how versatile a lot of these guys are alleged to be. It's like a death sentence to get drafted with a reputation of being "versatile" because when they get to training they get spread out instead of focusing on the position they were successful at. Yes, players must be familiar with what other positions are doing, but being familiar and pushing for proficiency are two different things.

It used to be that it was "safe" to choose offensive linemen high in the draft. That's changed a lot mostly due to the amount of Spread offenses in the college game.

It's a transition to constantly go from playing in a 2-point stance in college to having to play from a 3-pt stance in the NFL. Also, in college, offensive linemen are typically asked to be human shields w/the body positioning to create running lanes. In the NFL, they are often asked to move defenders against their will. This physicality can often separate guys.

You also have to factor in that many guys are asked to switch formations and even positions once they get to the NFL. We often read a comment like, draft [insert a LT's name] and play him at RT for a couple of years until he's ready. That sounds easy, but it can be quite an adjustment.

I just think that it's hard to get a really good look at many collegiate offensive linemen due to the differences in their game and the NFL. The same can obviously be said for QBs, but that is another discussion.

You could argue that we "ruined" Cam Erving and Austin Corbett by shuffling them all around the line in order to find them a spot. By trying to find them a spot, we ensured that they would never find a spot.

But it doesn't appear that either of them (Corbett is still TBD) will make a breakthrough with their new teams. KC's line is not good, and Erving wasn't on the field for the SB.

It could just be they're not that good. Similar situations with how many of the "can't miss" tackle prospects that have flamed out.

this.

I would hope tjis is a scenario that will happedn.

Coach: We need to upgrade our ILB

Analytics: Our numbers indicate we have three ILB's that top the list who fits that need

Scout ; After watching film, talking to players and doing the eye test this is how we rank those three.

GM: based on this Player A is the one


I know very simplistic, but you get the gist.

I'm highly skeptical of this FO, but my hope is that this particular blend/rendition of the 'nerd-FO' is a much better blend of analytics and football experience.

Before it felt like we had a collection of people that were either "all-stats" or "all-football". Hue was all-football. Sashi and DePo were all-stats. Very oil-and-water.

Now, each person seems to be familiar/comfortable with both.

This is not accurate.

What was their football experience prior to taking on their jobs in that FO?

What does that have to with relying only on stats to make decisions?

Were Berry and scouts not there for input?

The ongoing inaccuracies continue to, well, continue.

Nothing.

Just more proof of the common misconception of the previous regime.

A lot of people didn't "get it."

Cam was moved around the line because he was horrible wherever we tried him. He has his chances at each position. He was just bad.

Sashi and DePo were the key decision-makers. Sashi was the salary cap guy before being elevated to whatever the position it was that made him the final decision-maker. DePo was from baseball. Those two had no more football knowledge than Hue had stats knowledge.

They did have Berry and scouts and so forth, but those guys weren't the decision-makers, which is why I left them out in my first comment. I don't think I made that part clear, though. However, you took exception with my general characterization of Sash and DePo as being "all-stats", and I stand by it, as they didn't have the football FO experience.

Depo and Sashi both played football at Harvard. Depo always wanted to be a coach. His first job out of college was in the CFL. Then guess what, he was hired by the Indians, yes, the Cleveland Indians. Depo has been a part of the Browns organization's Front Office for 3 years now, but people are still treating him like a rookie. Plus, Berry is in charge of the 53 man roster.

Take a look at the first draft they did ,... try doing it OBJECTIVELY for a change ..

Never mind ,,, i forgot all u know about the game is numbers ...

I don't disagree with anything you said about decision-makers. I've gone on record several times that Brown was THE decision maker. He obviously was.

But they weren't only "all stats" guys and decisions were not made in a vacuum like that. I'm sorry but input came from Berry and scouts, and unfortunately, even Hue when it came to decision-making. In fact, Brown was on record saying they were going to rely on Hue for the QB spot, to quote you, the "all football" guy. Ex- RG3 "moved the ground beneath his feet" comment?

Go ahead and believe the opposite if you'd like....

I feel it's a good time to go back and point out my earlier post.

I mentioned that the first go-around of this FO was more of an oil-and-water setup. Now, we have guys in decision-making roles that are more well-rounded (Kevin, Berry, hell even DePo has now been in a football org for a few years).

I have no interest in doing a full re-hash of the Sashi era. If you're arguing that Sashi and DePo, individually, had a blend of stats and football experience, then we're probably not going to find much common ground on this little tangent we're on.

I am saying... that regime didn't rely on "all-stats" to make decisions.

That's not was I was trying to communicate either.

Then that's my bad.

Probably my bad too. I need to be more clear when I mention that regime and making comparisons. It's too easy to devolve into the old arguments.