I would totally be down with Trent for a 5th and then draft the LT of the future. Callahan is the key to this. If he thinks Trent can help, them you bring him in. Simple as that.
Trust your draft board for the rest.
“It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do; we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.” -Steve Jobs.
RG is also an issue, though I don’t know if Hubbard is a fit there? I don’t know enough about OL play.
I think signing Conklin and drafting the best OT is the way to make the offense most improved immediately
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
I believe Hubbard played Tackle and Guard as a Steeler. I could be wrong, bt I thought he was the 6th man on their O-line backing up LT, RT, LG, and RG.
Coaching was certainly an issue, but Baker did hold the ball too long. He did abandon clean pockets. He did drop too deep and into the path where the tackles are supposed to guide the Edge rushers. Those things cannot fairly be denied. Baker was a big part of the problem.
The OL was not good, but they were not nearly as bad as most folks on here make them out to be.
I agree with that. BM did plenty to to make bad habits worse and make the line look stupid bad.
I guess patty of my gripe last year is if you are going to become as pass happy as we were, then some of the basic crap should have been coached out. He got worse IMO.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
Watch this play. Baker's drop is too deep. He has a clean pocket. Njoku is open earlier. Baker decides to not throw it to him. He then leaves the clean pocket and bails to the right. He finally throws late to Njoku who is now covered. Njoku gets destroyed and ends up injured. This type of poor qb play happened over and over and over again.
Coaching was certainly an issue, but Baker did hold the ball too long. He did abandon clean pockets. He did drop too deep and into the path where the tackles are supposed to guide the Edge rushers. Those things cannot fairly be denied. Baker was a big part of the problem.
The OL was not good, but they were not nearly as bad as most folks on here make them out to be.
But those weren't as big of problems the year before, so it seems fair to wonder how much of his problem was lousy coaching. What was Lindley having him work on (stepping up in the pocket)? What plays were they practicing during the week vs the plays they were calling on Sundays (holding ball too long)?
You mentioned coaching briefly, but I think most people are/were thinking about coaching in terms of the macro/big picture and not enough of the micro/details. Both are important. It's like we added plays, but didn't spend enough time on the details of the plays. We didn't brush up on fundamentals when they started to slip on film.
I'm not excusing Baker, but the coaching didn't inspire a lot of confidence. He did do those things. It does not appear the staff did much/anything to correct them during the season. Instead of trying to do what they had done better, they seemed to constantly be trying to do something new. No one on the team seemed to have confidence (comfort/familiarity) in many of the plays that were called on offense. How long it took us to get to the line probably didn't help as it contributed to us constantly seeming rushed.
Better coaching will hopefully help give us a better Baker. Both sides of that equation have to work.
We need to constantly work on an identity and not just constantly try to come up with magic bullet plays that will instantly fix things.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
The Browns should trade Mayfield. He will never be anything more than a backup caliber QB in the NFL. He is a poor leader, he doesnt do anything well besides throw the ball hard. His atheltic skills are non-existent. He cant read a defense. He had tbe best weapons in the NFL last year and flat out sucked. And save the OL garbage. There were plenty of times, he had 5-7 seconds to throw and couldnt hit the broad side of a barn
The Browns should trade Mayfield. He will never be anything more than a backup caliber QB in the NFL.
I don't want to get lumped in w/that line of thinking. I believe Baker can improve. I'm not sure if he will or not, but he has a chance to. Giving up on him right now would be dumb. I do think this is a huge year for him.
I just wanted to point out that Baker played a role in what was going on. I keep reading how bad the OL was. I read comments like "keeping Baker upright."
The OL does need to improve. So does Baker because his pocket presence was awful last year. That Njoku play was a good look of him bailing the pocket and running right. He did that countless times. There was absolutely no reason to leave the pocket.
I dont know of any team that would even want him on 2nd thought. If Rivera wasnt the new HC, i would say the Redskins could be a team dumb enough to trade for him. Heck maybe try trading him to the Panthes. Their new owner seems like hes a dumb as Haslam.
If the OL was as bad as alot of fans think it is, then there is no way Chubb could have gained 1000 yards. Yes i know run and pass blocking are 2 different things but it isnt as bad or as big of a need as this brainwashed fan base makes it out to be
Watson and Wilson had no problem overcoming an OL that was subpar and yet they still put up great numbers. Both were sacked way more than Mayfield was.
Pretty much everything was sub par last season. (Chubb excepted.) I won’t say terrible, because there were some bright spots. The OL could have played better, as could have every position.. As well as the coaching, and play calling.
Trying to put the responsibility on one player or facet of the team is a fools errand.
Watch this play. Baker's drop is too deep. He has a clean pocket. Njoku is open earlier. Baker decides to not throw it to him. He then leaves the clean pocket and bails to the right. He finally throws late to Njoku who is now covered. Njoku gets destroyed and ends up injured. This type of poor qb play happened over and over and over again.
Without knowing what the QB reads are, who is primary, secondary and so forth, we are simply guessing at what the play is designed to accomplish.
The Browns are 2nd and 8 at the 50yd line and imo, I doubt that Njoku is the primary target on this play. Njoku was open early 4yds downfield but running into the LB coverage.
I'm not even sure Baker's pass was intended for Njoku. Five yds behind Njoku is Landry and he is open. Landry may have Baker's primary receiver on the play.
I don't believe the play was meant to be a 5 yd pass to Njoku, but a pass to Landry just past the sticks, for a first down if completed.
Also, it's unfortunate that Njoku was injured on the play, but as a receiver in the NFL, anytime you leave your feet to go up for a pass, you run the risk of being cut.
The only person responsible for the injury was the Jets DB who cut Njoku, but imo, the DB did his job. You see alot of receivers get tackled like that without being injured.
That just football in the NFL...
The play design is poor imo, too many receivers in the area, just to mention one issue with that play.
Coaching was certainly an issue, but Baker did hold the ball too long. He did abandon clean pockets. He did drop too deep and into the path where the tackles are supposed to guide the Edge rushers. Those things cannot fairly be denied. Baker was a big part of the problem.
The OL was not good, but they were not nearly as bad as most folks on here make them out to be.
I agree. The question was why was he holding the ball? He didn't do it under the Haley O. My guess is the receivers and QB had different ideas on where they should be.
Baker bulked up. The problem was it wasn't beef, it was more blubber. I agree. He needs to get serious about things this season.
I don't know how good or bad the line was. I do know we need 2 tackles and probably a guard to step up, be it a drafted player or a existing player.
To continue after reading other comments, on the Njoku play. Baker checked his deep reads to the left first. Not sure who the receivers were, it looked like 1 was breaking open, but couldn't see what the D had over the top.
Baker could have stepped up just before be broke right. My guess is stepping up reduces his sight lines. He wasn't that far back. That would be my guess. One of the hazards of having a shorter QB. There didn't look to be any throwing lanes in front of him. That may be a defensive strategy teams start using against Baker. Have the middle hold their lanes on the pass rush, not allowing passing lanes, leading to reduced vision and tipped balls.
I think the Browns need wider splits along the O-line. That will help create more passing lanes for our QB. We seemed to be in tight splits most of the time.
Last edited by Ballpeen; 03/07/2011:50 AM. Reason: To continue a thought
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Believe what you will, but there is no sense talking to you if you don't think Baker was was part of the problem because he held the ball too long at times and also left the pocket too early.
I don't know how good or bad the line was.I do know we need 2 tackles and probably a guard to step up, be it a drafted player or a existing player.
peen...you answered your own question!
I know. That is my way of not disagreeing with another poster. But in fairness, Baker did break early...go back, I added comments to my earlier post. I do think we need to get better, but our guys weren't horrible.
I think the Freddie/Monken O was horrible. Freddie and Monken never meshed as a team of coaches.
We will run your offense, using my language and me calling the plays, not really knowing the design of your O. LOL
That brings a lot of confusion to the players when the top coaches don't really understand what the other is doing.
It was doomed from the start.
I give Stefanski credit in allowing Van Pelt to call plays in preseason. Stefanski knows how to call his O. He is finding out if VanPelt picks it up and understands why you might call one play to set up another..heck, hopefully Van Pelt shows Stefanski other ways of setting up plays. That is good coaching/teamwork, football or not. You don't worry about who is the boss and who isn't, you don't worry about who had the idea. You learn from each other and grow as a team in any avenue of sport or business.
I think both of those guys are pretty sharp in what they do. I think it will be a good teaming of coaching strength.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Believe what you will, but there is no sense talking to you if you don't think Baker was was part of the problem because he held the ball too long at times and also left the pocket too early.
vers...without knowing what the purpose of that play call was, both of us are simply guessing.
If the primary purpose of the play call was to complete a short dump off toe Njoku, then yes, Baker missed this man.
BUT...imo, Baker's pocket was not going to hold up long enough if he was looking to complete the pass to Landry who was running an out toward the sidelines and Landry was open.
A short dump off to Njoku...? or A pass to an open Landry for a first down...?
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
I've not read one comment or opinion on any message board nor have I talked with someone in person who thinks Baker had no fault in the 2019 debacle.
The OL play and lack of consistency was every bit as bad as they've been blamed for being. The 2020 starting lineup will feature a 60% turnover from the 2019 starting lineup.
Remember all the talk in TC about how Devaroe Lawrence was unblockable? They cut him during the year and when we were bringing in PS guys to play on the 53 & DLine. Baker was intimately aware of how poor his OL could pass block...watching Devaroe Lawrence be unblockable surely gave him mounds of confidence to stay in the pocket...my goodness. Corbett was a bust, Kush only slightly better, Robinson got benched for being so darn inconsistent.
Baker played a part in the debacle and he was not alone in that participation. It is unreasonable/misleading to pick at one of his flaws without discussing why he so regressed from his rookie year...which includes Baker himself and the poop-show around him.
Any thought about my comment about going to wider O-line splits?
We know our QB is on the short side of ideal. I think wide splits would create wider sight lines.
I think simply using playaction will help more. Wide splits risk giving up penetration.
In pass pro, our OL got knocked back a lot (significantly, though also frequently) which I believe contributed to Baker drifting back. Our interior wasn't as stout without Zeitler, so he may not have been confident in stepping up into a pocket (on the rare occasions a clean pocket even existed).
Also our OTs struggled so much with speed they kind of "cheated" by anticipating speed and taking hard drops which made them vulnerable to inside moves. That might also have contributed to Baker not stepping up. Getting hit by someone bending around the outside hurts less than someone coming inside straight through your chest.
Linemen tend to get knocked back less on playaction as they start forward like they are run blocking. Also can suck up LBs and safeties making easier reads behind them. I'm not sure why we didn't use playaction more. I'm still trying to track down the actual frequency of our use of it.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
mac, this is my last post to you about this. You, and another poster, are twisting my words around yet again. I have never once said that Baker was the only one who deserved blame. I have said he deserves part of the blame.
I was talking about that it was well-known that Baker held the ball too long and bailed to the right from clean pockets. I used that video to illustrate that point.
If you don't think that was a clean pocket and ran himself into trouble, than I have no idea what to tell you.
You could do a search and see how many references there are to him holding the ball and leaving the pocket. It's not news. Instead, it's folks on here trying to suppress it.
Here is one such example:
Quote:
His completion rate has dropped from 63.8 percent in 13 games as a rookie starter to 56.9. He’s thrown just three touchdown passes and five interceptions. At times, the 24-year-old has either held the ball too long waiting for receivers to get open or bailed too quickly from the pocket to improvise.
Mayfield grew defensive when asked if he’s giving up on plays before he should.
“Did you take that one straight from the commentators or what?” he asked a reporter. “There was one play that I feel like I could stick in there. Other than that, here is the thing: people are going to commend when I extend the play and make a scramble play. And if I leave the pocket too early, they are going to harp on it.
“I couldn’t really care less. I am going to do my job like I said and continue to improve.”
This is from earlier in the season, but it is another example that I am not just making things up.
Quote:
Mayfield’s average pass attempt took 2.57 seconds in 2018, and it took an average of 3.26 seconds to sack him. Those numbers have climbed to 2.74 and 3.61 seconds, respectively.
It isn’t just that Mayfield’s waiting longer to throw in 2019, however; it’s how he has stood in the pocket. Mayfield has been unusually skiddish, limiting his receiving options by bailing to the right side of the field. Far too often he has scrambled despite standing in a clean pocket.
Here’s an example from the last drive of the Browns’ loss to the Rams: Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield bails out of a clean pocket and throws a pass out of bounds.
The Rams did well in coverage on the play, but Mayfield puts pressure on himself by leaving the pocket. He also eliminates his two options on the left side of the field and shrinks the windows to his three receivers on the right. (It doesn’t help that those receivers bunched together.)
That’s why the extra time that Mayfield can buy with his legs isn’t helping.
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