DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Free Agency Part III

I think with Delpit we have the talent to develop our own safety not to mention it would be a lot cheaper and the money can be used elsewhere. JMO

My proposition was purely about the talent on the field. No consideration of money. All things being equal if the team has enough money to sign Clowney, they have enough to sign Adams instead of Clowney. Adams and Delpit do not play the same position. Adding Adams has the potential of accelerating Delpits transition to the pro game. Adams is much more of a hybrid linebacker/safety player. Having Adams Delpit and Joeseph on the field together would allow woods to play his Nickle as his base defense. It would allow the defense to transition to the Dime base defense much sooner than otherwise possible. Adams would decrease the linebacking pass coverage weakness that everyone keeps talking about.

I don't see where investing 12-15m million in Clowney pays any more dividends than the same investment in Adams. Actually I think that Adams brings more dimensions to the defense than Clowney offers.

If he can be had with a 2nd round pick it seems very doable. I'd be surprised if the Jets are able to get a #1 for him.

I read nearly every post in this thread, some caused me to think, and I always like posts that make me think. I'll touch on some of what I sort of want to respond too.

1st I don't discount that Bake had some issues last year as was pointed out, he still hasn't shown the ability to bring the team from behind when we need a score to end and win a game. That is probably my greatest concern.

I don't think Bake had accuracy issues like some do. I think of the games he had with Landry and how they took apart Baltimore for instances. Landry was simply where he was suppose to be when he was suppose to be there. OBJ not so much. When you look at timing routes and OBJ they were non existent. If blame needs to be credited I credit OBJ. By injury or by poor route running he simply wasn't the weapon we imagined. Poor line play didn't help. Bake could have been much better, but I am not so sure I buy the accuracy thing. And no he did make some bad throws, but I don't lay the offensive struggles at his feet, at least not yet. He was part of the problem not the whole problem, IMO.

Moving forward I think the Browns have set the table to be a team that is going to pound the ball with a healthy dose of play action, and of course the occasional deep ball when teams load the box. The addition of Conklin and Wills the troublesome tackle positions have been addressed. This should open up this offense, and if any of us know anything pressure disrupts the very best QB's.

My hope is that KS works slowly to bring the O line up to speed keeps things very vanilla and works in season to get beyond basics. With this Covid-19 thing sticking to basics IMO is key to early success and expanding the offense as the season unfolds should pay off. To many new players and to little time, basics is key.

Now the defense and what I think is that we are going to see a very unique defensive alignment that will be about creating pressure in ways we haven't witnessed in the past. I am probably crazy here I will admit but when we play Baltimore I see us loading up the D line with plenty of back end speed. I see us going to a six man front when Baltimore goes to their 2-3 TE sets (primary running formations) and you know what will win those battles.

I don't think it's a Clowney, Vernon either or I think it's both with Richardson and Ogunjobi in the middle with Vernon and Clayborn, Clowney, and Garret. Speed on the outside meat and potato guys on the inside. Will win at the LOS and create pressure all at one time. We need a real thump-er in the middle (Linebacker). Some one that sheds blocks and lays the wood preferably a linebacker safety combo. I think a CJ Ward type safety would be huge in this style of defense. maybe not the best in coverage but a sure tackler in the running game who can cover long enough for the pressure to arrive, which won't take long with this alignment.

Again any retooling will take time, although I can see us running this alignment with one or 2 basics from it. In the long run I could see us dropping Garret or Clowney and bringing pressure from different angles.

I am to be sure NOT all that sure what will do on the defensive side of the ball, but based on the players they have brought in or are trying to bring in, I see us really loading up on the line to the point where LB has become almost an after thought. For sure with a six man front it's going to be awfully hard to get blockers to the second level much less win at the LOS. My crazy thought for the day.

If I had to make a choice between Adams or Clowney I would take Adams. He's one of the best in the league at his position and is a leader on D. Clowney is good but not the impact player Adams is.

Adams, a first round pick, another late round pick, and an extension or Clowney and his contract. The answer is easy.

I agree. Been beating this drum for awhile. I think being clutch is something you either have or don't but can also be developed by actually doing it and gaining some confidence. Baker is great when he's ahead and piling it on. Tightens up when the game is on the line. I want to see come back wins against quality opponents where it's his play, him putting the team on his shoulders, that is the difference in the game.

Just to add a little more to that. I want to see us hang in and win a track meet if we need to. Match scores and hang closer. Tired of blown first half leads or going in down three scores or so at halftime. An offense that can't score when needed; a defense that can't get itself off the field. Which one do you count on for wins?

Bring the fight to them. Bakes needs to lock the killer instinct down. No mercy.

If the argument is exclusively who is easier to acquire the answer would be Clowney. But if the question is who would bring more value to the defense I believe its Adams. I also don't believe it will cost a #1 to get Adams. It's going to be a buyer's market on Adams. I think the player has some leverage here and the Jets might realize holding out for a #1 just allows a bad relationship to fester.

It’s not just about this year, that’s the point. It’s about future value also.

Who impacts the team more Clowney and the picks we don’t give up for Adams or Adams without the picks? Future value of picks is important especially with the contracts we will have to give out soon.

According to this:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=MayfBa00

He's had 5 game-winning drives in his two year career. He's played in 30 games thus far...the Browns have won 13 of those 30 games.

I can only recollect one game when HIS last play ended our chances to win a game - second Rats game in his rookie year...last game of the season.

Disclaimer: This is NOT me disagreeing with your/this theory.

I DO think he has the confidence and skills to be a very clutch QB. I also think it's too early in his career to label him as being unable/able to be a comeback-wonder at QB.

JMO

I didn't actually take offense. I just found it to be typical and how actual discussions end up going off the rails.

Most people refuse to pretend that 2019 didn't happen. Most don't blame "everything" on the coaching staff. Trying to pretend what a QB did in college means anything on the NFL level is only fooling themselves. The track record of Heisman winning QB's tells that story quite well. It's a flip a coin issue at best.

Common sense dictates that the jury is still out on Mayfield. The problem seems to be that it's not good enough for you if someone doesn't stand up and proclaim him the best thing since sliced bread. All of us as Browns fans want you to be right.

However, we watched 16 games last year and refuse to absolve Mayfield of any responsibility. I've seen parents do that with their children and it never seems to turn out well.

Some don't seem to understand just how bad the coaching staff affected our team... from the standpoint of how it seem to creep into darn near every aspect/position group. I'm not absolving Mayfield of his poor play, but I just find it really hard to make a solid determination of how bad he was, given everything that was going on around him.

Which is why I say the jury is out on whether we will get 2018 Baker or 2019 Baker.

Much as you said, I'm not absolving Mayfield of all responsibility, but I have no idea exactly how much of his performance he was responsible for. You see, some seem to think they have all the answers. They seem to claim it was all on the coaching staff. Some seem to blame Baker for most all of it.

None of these people were in the locker room, on the field or in the heads of any of our players. And while everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, that's all any of it is. So I'm taking what I consider is a realistic approach when i say I have no idea.

As such, I'm not going to pretend I do. I see how Baker will perform in 2020 as a big question mark. And if anyone else is honest, that would have to be what they see too.

2018 let us know for a fact that the talent is there. The OL has certainly been addressed and we have a new coaching staff. In saying that, we have no idea how good this coaching staff will be working as a unit. Stefanski has never been an NFL HC before. Once again, people use conjecture and opinion to try and bolster it. But that fact is, when someone has never done a job before everything you think you know is actually only something you believe to be true.

So while as a Browns fan I always hope for the best, a lot of questions remain. In fact, far more questions than answers at this point. That without a doubt is factual and it cracks me up sometimes when people get so upset when facts don't measure up to their expectations and opinions.

Far more questions than answers is always the story with this franchise.

I don't want to get into another argument, but I will just say that you are not remembering correctly.

Jamal Adams is apparently trying to force his way to the Cowboys.

Link

I wouldn't mind having Clowney or Adams, but the costs are prohibitive and apparently both want to be elsewhere.

I say that everyone has a right to their opinion. You say I'm making up "imaginary scenarios". Typical.

I'm not imagining how crappy Baker ranked among NFL starting QB's or in denial of his 2019 performance.

And once again you swing and miss. In the very post you are responding to I said this...



Keep up the personality conflict tab. It's what you do.

j/c...

Hollywood Brown is Antonio's cousin. I hope they sign him because there is basically 0% chance he stays on the straight and narrow.

I am not sure what they say but I do know what I have seen and in pressure situations with the clock running out Bake has come up short repeatedly.

The stats they gather an use I would seriously question if that is what they say?

Seattle is kind of a place where old WRs go to die haha

Stats are just stats. They rarely show a complete picture.

I still only recollect one game where Baker couldn't get the team to a late score. The stats suggest that he did do so five times in his two year career.

I do recollect the Bills game last year where he was clutch in getting a TD pass that gave us the lead on what would be our last possession - outside of taking a knee?

I also look at his performance in his first real NFL game. He came in unfazed and led the team to a W on national primetime TV - and on a team that had won (1) game in the previous (35). The pressure was tremendous and he delivered...not a last second play to win, but ridiculously impressive nonetheless. He's got "it" in him.

Do you recollect a game where he didn't deliver at the end to win? A game that he could have turned at the last minute and did not? I honestly don't other than the Ravens game I mentioned above. That doesn't mean I'm saying there wasn't one...just that I don't recollect one.

In the end, I think it's too early to say whether he will be clutch at the end to bring home the W.

Start with the number of wins - 13 out of 30. So he's losing way more than he's winning.

Then add in the fact his record is better against teams with losing records than winning records. He really seems to be beat up on the bad teams. He spent the second half of 2018 doing just that. Last year his best game was against Miami. I will admit that sometimes he doesn't even get a chance to be clutch against good teams because the team gets down so big so fast. But a lot of that is on him too. You can probably point to four or five games where this is the case, Texans 2018, KC 2018, SF 2019 just off the top of my head. Guess what? They were all good teams.

in terms of come back wins against good teams, you have failures against the Ravens 2018, Rams 2019, Seattle 2019, and the Titans 2019 just off the top of my head. We still had a chance to win that Titans game last year before he fell apart. All four teams are good teams. There's a theme here. The Bills win was great and he deserves a notch in his belt for that one.

His very first game was great but the Jets are a terrible team and rival the Browns in futility. It was still a lot of fun and he played great and brought the team back. I think the Jets drafted 3rd after that season.

I trust what my eyes are telling me. Baker struggles with confidence and production when the level of competition is upped, the score is tight, and the team needs him. He doesn't appear to possess that extra will and ability to get it done against the best when it matters most.

I hope I'm wrong. I'm in Baker's corner. I am just commenting on what I see.

1. Needs to play better against better competition throughout the game.
2. Needs to produce late in games when the game is still in doubt and win the game, especially against good teams.

I will fully admit that last year was a complete cluster. But I've had this concern with Baker since I saw him play in the playoff game in college against UGA.

You keep doing you man.

You can only play the teams on your schedule.

I'd argue the turning point of last season was the Greg Robinson kick game. Baker got teed off on that game.

I'm hoping with better protection and more experience, hopefully more structure and healthy receivers, he'll bounce back this year.

There are several games where Baker failed at the end. I'll start w/two and see if you want to continue. Seattle and the Rams this past year. Do you want links?

I am not going to review both those games versatile, but I did look at 15-20 minutes of the Seattle game. Seahawks went ahead with 3:30 still on the clock. These highlights did not show all the plays but they showed baker throwing the ball to Hilliard. Ball was behind him but it hit him squarely in both hands. Should have been caught but was instead intercepted. Seahawks ran out the clock because our defense could not stop them. This was not an example of baker failing to perform in crunch time imo.

I give Baker a (partial) pass on the Rams game due to the incompetence of the HC.

First and goal from the five, you have Nick Chubb at your disposal and instead go empty backfield?

It’s hard to imagine an NFL coach being that stupid.

Run the ball on 4th and 12?? Savvy move!

Is it Baker or the offense in general, don't answer it's Rhetorical

Even in 2018, during Both Coaching manifestations, It was notable how the Offense was poor duing overtime drives, I recall maybe every first possession was a 3 and out, or a 5 and out, 50% or less on drives in OT to get into scoring position.

BUT! Baker has a Way higher percentage of converting 2nd and very longs, or 3rd and longs than the ENTIRE LAUNDRY LIST of Browns QB's preceding him

What do ya want to Go Back to a version of Colt McCoy?

McCoy, IMO, was about the most consistent, as far as being able to matriculate 6 yards on a 3rd and 7-8,
BUT, he sure as heck couldn't get the team out of 2nd and very long or 3rd and longs with anywhere near the percentage Baker offers you.

Another thing:

Like in the late drives vs Baltimore near the end of the season, (2-3 years ago, and or last year) The offense goes very bland

Seriously? They are rushing low percentage quick passes with no cuts by the receiver, as if too worried about a turnover or whatever the freak, I don't know,

BUT WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT? Isn't the OC supposed to have a plan,
(scoff/laugh) Do you see basketball teams in a last minute time out, come to the side of the court, and IT'S THE COACH, that's got the dry erase board out diagraming how he wants the ball inbounded and the last shot set up.


If the Browns, come out and play less dynamic than they had for many earlier posessions,

IS THAT BAKERS' FAULT
or IS THAT THE OFFENSIVE COORD. AND COACHES FAULT

Or is that just preparations fault,
Or is that just the continuity of a years(plural years) long working relationship not being present's fault

I already don't believe it coul be a talent fault, because at the NFL level I don't believe talent wins in those situations, it's chess match outthinking/scheming

Because everybodys talent is already 110% , in these end of game drives in the NFL, it's not how in College there may be a talent advantage that can be exploited,

Now, (because you always have to explain on Dawgtalkers), NOW! it's not to say there aren't some instances of lesser talent that doesn't belong on the field, like Browns bad linebackers from Ben Taylors rookie year, where Jamal Lewis ran for 900 yards in 2 games,
Not to say that,
But to say, those instances lead to blowout games which don't end in the situations we're talking about here.

End of game drives to win.

As I proofread I guess I have to go back on my point of view,

There is the case where there could be a talent advantage to be exploited on these snaps, in these end of game drives that decide the games,
(But figuring out where the flip that matchup is in place on the Snap,
and showcasing the moves on the dance that is that final deciding snap to prove that talent, by working together as a group, or at least duo,

Figuring that out and doing that, that's not talent, that's
scheming,
thinking,
coaching,
chess,
and exploiting a weakness through knowledge.

(Watch the Patriots Super Bowl win on a goaline defending interception by aggressively pounding the Receiver out of his spot to the ball, positioned in a parallel, shoulder to shoulder sideways hit, which didn't come as a hit in his back, so that there was no chance for a penalty

Was that a 4.3 40 time? Was that someone 3 inches taller? Was that a super wide hand width?

Heck no it wasn't, Heck no it wasn't.

Ok I didn't respond 2 days ago when I read this because it's pointless and I wasn't as angry,
But, ? kidding me, really think it matters.

Oh, they have Delpit? OM freaking goodness!!

What about Eric Wright, What about TJ Ward, What about Mike Adams, What about Tashaun Gipson,
That Player they tried to tell us was good enough to replace Gipson, What about what's his name from Michigan they traded for Odell

YOU REALLY THINK THE BROWNS ARE GOING TO DEVELOP DELPIT? After all these times of parting away with players about to reach their prime.

Sure. They got a rookie development guy at Safety, He's a real good one, this time it's going to be different.

It's because you post is at the top of the page, and I keep seeing it every time this loads.

j/c

Coaching is severely underestimated around here.

It's no coincidence the same folks who thought Hue should get a third season after 1-31 are the same ones who are ignoring the extremely poor coaching during Baker's second season.

Sure, it's entirely possible Baker sucks... and he obviously made mistakes along the way. But to ignore the inept coaching of 2019, a guy who told his quarterback to step away from football during the offseason, a guy who pretty much ignored the things his team does best, and place blame on a second year player is very very very disingenuous.

I'm not surprised by the polar opposites here, however. When we drafted Baker, I've always said people are going to love or hate him. No middle ground. After Baker wins us a Super Bowl there will still be Browns fans who will want to get rid of him.

I agree with you about the coaching. It matters in a big way.

But four chances from first and goal at the 5 (Rams game, for example) is about the players. The play don't matter. The coaching doesn't matter. You either make it happen or you don't. Things break down, you improvise, you get it done. You want it bad enough, you figure it out.

That's the kind of clutch I'm talking about. I don’t think Baker's clutchness had anything to do with Freddy's coaching. I think Baker's year in general had a lot to do with Freddy's coaching.

But I'm in Baker's corner in a big way. I think brighter days are ahead for him and the team.

There really are no "polar opposites" on here. There are those like myself who think there's enough blame to go around. Some rests on Freddie but some if it also rests on Baker. Trying to blame it all on either one of them is short sighted.

Then there are those who wish to absolve Baker of everything and blame everything on Freddie. Those two things are not "polar opposites".

It seems like you're focusing on the times he didn't rather than the times he did.

You're not going to win every game. Tom Brady has lost super bowls. Dan Marino has never won a super bowl. Peyton Manning has failed in the clutch...as have Brett Favre, John Elway, and Drew Brees.

I would also argue Baker is clutch. He has that trait. He's special.

You forget you were an advocate for Hue to get another year as HC.

It is what it is...some probably still want Hubert as coach.

Today he might be 5-65-1


The guy won 1 game a season....lol. It's so sad it's funny, now.