Clowney has been a bust for being the 1st overall pick. He has 32 sacks in 75 games played, which in 6 seasons, means he's missed 21 games due to injury.
For comparison sake, Garret has 30.5 sacks in 37 games, and has missed 11 games to injury/suspension.
Clowney is a good player, but a bust as the #1 overall pick, especially with him playing opposite Watt for years.
Clowney was the #1 overall pick? ... that means nothing to me in his current situation, I’m just curious.
Yes, 2014 Draft. And he was hyped as the next huge DE mostly because of a Bowl game hit on a 160lbs RB. He is physically imposing and was a good/great college player, but hasn't been great in the NFL. Definitely a good player, but also a bust based on where he was drafted and the hype surrounding him.
I've been consistent in opposing signing Clowney but now he's got a bust label?
He's going to sign somewhere for an amount that can conservatively be estimated between $$15 mil.-$17 mil. per year, maybe more in his sixth year and he's a bust? No, he's not the right fit for this team. His injury history is as troubling as our current $15 mil Defensive End but he is an effective player.
Clowney doesn't inspire trust. I don't think he's the right fit for this team at this time but with all of that said objectively the guy can play in this league without changing much of anything about his game. Only fans would rely on the metric of his draft status to determine if he is a bust. I can't prove it but I highly doubt any Pro Personell executive in the league would share that evaluation.
In terms of Clooney, I always thought that one play against Michigan really put him into stardom ... even though he really didn’t match it with consistent production yet
Clowney has been a bust for being the 1st overall pick. He has 32 sacks in 75 games played, which in 6 seasons, means he's missed 21 games due to injury.
For comparison sake, Garret has 30.5 sacks in 37 games, and has missed 11 games to injury/suspension.
Clowney is a good player, but a bust as the #1 overall pick, especially with him playing opposite Watt for years.
That still doesn't make him a bust. Gerrard Warren wasn't a bust.
Warren may not have lived up to expectations, but you don't start 14-15 years if you are a bust.
Clowney has been a bust for being the 1st overall pick. He has 32 sacks in 75 games played, which in 6 seasons, means he's missed 21 games due to injury.
For comparison sake, Garret has 30.5 sacks in 37 games, and has missed 11 games to injury/suspension.
Clowney is a good player, but a bust as the #1 overall pick, especially with him playing opposite Watt for years.
That still doesn't make him a bust. Gerrard Warren wasn't a bust.
Warren may not have lived up to expectations, but you don't start 14-15 years if you are a bust.
Yes, seriously. The Pro Bowl vote is largely a popularity contest. Clowney is a good player. If he's the 21st pick in the draft, he's a decent choice. But as the #1 overall pick, he's supposed to be a dominant, game changing player. He isn't.
Yes, seriously. The Pro Bowl vote is largely a popularity contest. Clowney is a good player. If he's the 21st pick in the draft, he's a decent choice. But as the #1 overall pick, he's supposed to be a dominant, game changing player. He isn't.
Or your expectations for what the first pick should be are out of whack.
I didn't think anyone would disagree w/me, but okay.
We have different definitions of a bust. Giber was a bust. So was Johnny Football. Timid was a bust. TRich was another bust.
Clowney might not have lived up to expectations, but I can't even fathom calling him a bust. I pray we don't sign the guy to a big-dollar contract, but he isn't a "bust."
Yes, seriously. The Pro Bowl vote is largely a popularity contest. Clowney is a good player. If he's the 21st pick in the draft, he's a decent choice. But as the #1 overall pick, he's supposed to be a dominant, game changing player. He isn't.
How about PFF? The last three years he has received the same, and better, marks as Garrett. He is better than Garrett in stopping the run. Garrett only beats him out in sacks, though I have to check hurries. And before there is the 'only sacks?!' we are talking about 10 plays last year and 13.5 plays last year. In the mean time how many runs are there per game?
On a slightly different note. Everson Griffen, if his mental health checks out he would be cheaper than Clowney, likely to give you more sacks, also brings run defense and could possibly take a decent 1 or 2 year deal. Griffen as a rotational DE where he's not taking reps every down would offer plenty of depth.
Then there's the Viking connection, wonder why that deal hasn't gotten more traction?
Clowney is not worth the money he wants... he’s a good player but has a history of taking plays off and being relatively lazy in practice and off season... dude is a physical specimen and flashes but for as much money as he wants I don’t think it’s worth it
When healthy I think he's still a good player. I think he was miscast as a 3-4 OLB for NYG. If he avoids injury and Myles draws more double teams he'll have opportunities to make plays. I think he'll be motivated to put something on tape before entering free agency at the end of the season. I hope for Emanual Ogbah type of production from him and maybe a little more.
I think that Vernon helped open things up for Myles. I think he is a far superior player to Ogbah, and I am the guy who wanted us to draft Ogbah. I think Vernon is a quality player who can not only pressure the qb, but also defend the run very well. His outside containment is excellent. He does a tremendous job of maintaining the outside/in technique. He strings plays out which allows the pursuit to catch-up and make the tackle. I think he is vastly underrated on this board. The only concern I have w/him has to do w/his injuries.
I think many on here would agree with your post, it's just that last line that can be a sticking point for some.
But I also think some folks can't get over what we gave up to bring him in. I don't agree with that line of thinking, but I can understand the frustration.
Yes, seriously. The Pro Bowl vote is largely a popularity contest. Clowney is a good player. If he's the 21st pick in the draft, he's a decent choice. But as the #1 overall pick, he's supposed to be a dominant, game changing player. He isn't.
I hesitate to put the 'bust' label on Clowney, but I think the label has been misused far worse in other situations. Clowney was supposed to be what Garrett is, or even better, but he's not.
I’d say Clowney has been a major disappointment that hasn’t come close to living up to his draft spot ... he relies solely on his physical tools and doesn’t seem to “want it” ... IMO he’s not a bust .... he’s better than most at his position, he’s just not worth what he thinks he is ... he wants to get paid for what he should be not what he is ...
he’s fine making a great living and being an above average player at his position while at the same time being a classic underachiever who was complacent and never achieved the greatness his physical tools could have led to with effort .....
On a slightly different note. Everson Griffen, if his mental health checks out he would be cheaper than Clowney, likely to give you more sacks, also brings run defense and could possibly take a decent 1 or 2 year deal. Griffen as a rotational DE where he's not taking reps every down would offer plenty of depth.
Then there's the Viking connection, wonder why that deal hasn't gotten more traction?
I think the issue with Griffen is his age. I don't think this FO will want to throw a contract at a player over 30 when there are younger options available.
I think it has to be something else. My reasoning? Andrew Sendejo is 32 and we signed him. I would think their familiarity with Griffen because of Stephanski and Woods would provide first-hand knowledge to make them comfortable with whether he can still play. As an average fan sitting on the outside of this situation, I think Griffen can still play. Particularly as a rotational lineman. So something else is likely going on there.
I think the reasoning is they (or simply just Berry) would rather have Clowney. If that falls through, perhaps Griffen is the backup plan.
If both options fail, they can rely on hoping Vernon can stay healthy. And if they can get Griffen on the cheap, maybe they keep both he and Vernon at his current contract?
Sendejo is very much an outlier, though. He's also proof that they aren't 1000% against the idea, but I distinctly recall seeing/hearing somewhere from Depo and others that over 30 isn't where we want to put our free agency money. It's not that we won't do it, but ideally, especially with the large contracts, we want guys under 30 hitting their prime and just coming off their rookie contracts.
I have heard Depo articulate a message as you summarize. The thing is, my personal feeling is that 1) Vernon is the best option in the short term. I think Vers did an excellent job describing what he is capable of when healthy. If he plays up to his skill level I would offer him another contract at the end of the season. This is with the expectation that Garrett gets extended during 2020. Under these circumstances, if he is willing to structure a deal that is equitable I'd sign him. If not, handshakes all around and best wishes.
2) Clowney will be expensive and I don't feel confident we know what we're buying with him. It would be a mistake to commit long-term dollars in a contract with him.IMO
3) As I said earlier, I think Griffen can play and contribute nicely in our rotation. I don't think he's seeking a long term commitment considering where he is at this stage of his career. I think he can fit comfortably within our cap situation He represents excellent rotational depth.
Clowney was the #1 overall pick? ... that means nothing to me in his current situation, I’m just curious.
Yes, 2014 Draft. And he was hyped as the next huge DE mostly because of a Bowl game hit on a 160lbs RB. He is physically imposing and was a good/great college player, but hasn't been great in the NFL. Definitely a good player, but also a bust based on where he was drafted and the hype surrounding him.
I happen to agree with Verse on Clowney. He is a disruptive force just never got the acclaim and has done well wherever he has been. Matched up with Garrett would be excellent even if just one year.
I would not mind that investment at all...its not as if we got a youngster who would lose reps because of the move. We got two veteran FA (not coming here via draft) that would suffer in reps. I personally think it would keep our DEs fresh throughout the long season especially if we go to 17 games...Did we???
I would rather have a healthy Vernon than a self serving DE like Clowney, I admit the guy can stop the run and his sack total would go up opposite Garrett but this team needs to be just that ... A TEAM and he doesn't fit ... JMHO
Clowney has never lived up to expectations, he's never been that consistent. He's never been overly dominating, not like his former teammate J.J.Watt. He's shown flashes of No.1 talent but has played more like a 2nd or 3rd round pick. No way in hell would I sign him to any big contract, he's not earned it nor does he deserve it.
Has he been a complete bust, no, but for being the No.1 overall pick, I can see why some would call him that.
Yeah I'm not clear on any new offer which didn't change my opinion one way or another. Fact is we have made the best offer as of yet to Clowney and he has turned it down.
Which more than probable he is not buying into our program as he is looking to be a mercenary to a team that is Suppose to make a SB run. jmho
Yeah I'm not clear on any new offer which didn't change my opinion one way or another. Fact is we have made the best offer as of yet to Clowney and he has turned it down.
Which more than probable he is not buying into our program as he is looking to be a mercenary to a team that is Suppose to make a SB run. jmho
You could be right.
I think he has overvalued himself and is just hoping another team comes forward with a better deal.
If he wanted to sign a cheap contract with a contender, he would have already done that by now.
I am OK with Clowney in our house on a fair and lower contract. I am also OK with him listening to his ego and being out of the ;league for a year. Seems to enjoy turning people down. I don't see a real ambitious pursuit of him myself. He is turning down offers.
The question now is if another team that Clowney considers a contender will match the offer we made. Doesn't seem like it has happened yet or is likely to happen.
My bet is that is what Clowney is hoping for.
If there is no movement at all does he sign with a contender for 8-10 Million or take the deal with us?
My guess is the holdup is his agent knows Vernon makes 15 mil and knows we cut Vernon if Clowney signs, so he may just want to suck up the other 3 mil.
I'd like to keep Vernon even if we sign Clowney, at least for one year.
We could do it. I think I would rather use Vernons money to lock up Garrett for another 4-5 years. Give him that money in the form of a signing bonus.
Garrett and Clowney for the next 5-6 years sounds pretty darn good to me.
I want to get some guys locked in a year early. They have incentive to do so. They have incentive to do so, get your big payday early without risking injury this year, and the team does because we get it cheaper because taking a year of risk away from a player is worth something.
Look at Pryor. It may sound cool to bet on yourself, but I'll bet he wished he didn't make that bet.
Mashed potato's with no milk, salt, pepper, butter and gravy aren't all that good. Face it, simply boiled potato without any seasoning isn't all that good. It isn't bad, but not good.
That's a really nice find. It definitely improves my feelings about us signing Clayborn (who I, too, forgot about). If Clayborn can be at least average against the run, then we don't need Clowney.
I'm more than just a little confused by some of what people are saying myself. Last time I checked we had around 38 mil in cap space. That would leave 15 or so for Clowney and still leave 23 to extend Garret and front load some of that money.
I honestly would rather keep Vernon this year if we decide to add Clowney.
His contract is off the books after this year and we can give that money to Myles.
I agree with this, we have the money, I would rather keep Vernon and add Clowney, but if Vernon had to be cut for Clowney, I would not do that, I like a healthy Vernon over Clowney. JMHO
I honestly would rather keep Vernon this year if we decide to add Clowney.
His contract is off the books after this year and we can give that money to Myles.
I agree with this, we have the money, I would rather keep Vernon and add Clowney, but if Vernon had to be cut for Clowney, I would not do that, I like a healthy Vernon over Clowney. JMHO
Vernon can’t stay healthy either and is not as talented as Clowney.
I honestly would rather keep Vernon this year if we decide to add Clowney.
His contract is off the books after this year and we can give that money to Myles.
I agree with this, we have the money, I would rather keep Vernon and add Clowney, but if Vernon had to be cut for Clowney, I would not do that, I like a healthy Vernon over Clowney. JMHO
Vernon can’t stay healthy either and is not as talented as Clowney.
That's your opinion and I respect that but I don't believe Clowney is better than Vernon ... JMO
SO HERE ARE THEIR AVERAGE PER YEAR IN DIFFERENT CATEGORIES: Olivier Vernon Actually Played in More Games Per Year than Clowney ...
(Games Per Year) OV-14 JD-12 (Games Started Per Year) OV-12 JD-11 (Tackles Per Year) OV-44.1 JD-39.3 (Sacks Per Year) OV-6.7 JD-5.3 (Tackles for Loss Per Year) OV-9.3 JD-11.8 (Quarter Back Hits Per Year) OV-17.6 JD-13.3
JMO. Vernon, when healthy, is a more productive player than Clowney. If we could sign JC at the right price I would like to keep OV. We can afford it for 1 year as Vernon's contract is over after this year.
SO HERE ARE THEIR AVERAGE PER YEAR IN DIFFERENT CATEGORIES: Olivier Vernon Actually Played in More Games Per Year than Clowney ...
(Games Per Year) OV-14 JC-12 (Games Started Per Year) OV-12 JC-11 (Tackles Per Year) OV-44.1 JC-39.3 (Sacks Per Year) OV-6.7 JC-5.3 (Tackles for Loss Per Year) OV-9.3 JC-11.8 (Quarter Back Hits Per Year) OV-17.6 JC-13.3
Clowney has been a bust for being the 1st overall pick. He has 32 sacks in 75 games played, which in 6 seasons, means he's missed 21 games due to injury.
For comparison sake, Garret has 30.5 sacks in 37 games, and has missed 11 games to injury/suspension.
Clowney is a good player, but a bust as the #1 overall pick, especially with him playing opposite Watt for years.
That still doesn't make him a bust. Gerrard Warren wasn't a bust.
Warren may not have lived up to expectations, but you don't start 14-15 years if you are a bust.
he did manage 36.5 sacks and 29.5 QB hits in his 10.5 year carrrer
I was wrong about how long he played. It was 11 years. Not 14. He started double digit games 9 of his 11 years, so he was a starter most of his career for multiple teams.
My only point is just because a player doesn't meet fan expectations doesn't make the player a bust. You are a bust when you are drafted high and coaches don't play you and you wash out after 4-5 years. A guy like Bosworth or Manzel, they were busts. Warren or Clowney aren't.
a healthy vernon>clowney. problem is you don't get a healthy vernon very long, and then on other hand no way in hell is clowney with anywhere near what he wants.. if i'm the browns, i just stand pat at DE, or maybe get Griffen. We need a LB more than we need DE
until we see what we have in the schemes we're running isn't sufficient, I don't buy this, at all. I think that what we have is "good enough" given that our D isn't driven by the LBers. As a group, they are the least important in the system, by all accounts I've seen so far. In fact, if the other parts do their jobs appropriately, I'm betting that the LBers we have will suddenly look like studs.
I hope you're right, but I don't think you will be..LB's are instrumental in stopping the run, we haven't done that in years, going to be even harder with this group.. Let's hope the rookie and the 2nd year guys show up well, Hope they arent counting the FA we signed to do much. I still think at least one starting LB isnt on the team yet
I hope you're right, but I don't think you will be..LB's are instrumental in stopping the run, we haven't done that in years, going to be even harder with this group.. Let's hope the rookie and the 2nd year guys show up well, Hope they arent counting the FA we signed to do much. I still think at least one starting LB isnt on the team yet
Virus, Protests, New Head Coach, New NFL rules in 2016 ish. to limit offseason two a days,
I hope at least if one startng LB isn't on the team yet, they get enough time to work together.
Young players usually either progress or fall by the wayside. And by your own reasoning I have no idea if we are "good enough" at the LB position. We have no idea of the exact system we will be running or how much these young guys have progressed. So although I'm using some of your own logic I simply can't arrive at the same conclusion.
I will also, by that same logic, not predict doom and gloom either.
I realize that I'm going out on a limb a bit here, but given the amount of thought and planning this group is known to put into each and every move, I don't think we'd have gotten this far without having done more at LB if we weren't comfortable with the young kids' level of "good enough" for this system.
I do think it is likely to be a group we address heavily next offseason, unless the young bucks stud out.
I tend to go along with your thought process of it being heavily addressed next year.
And I do think this group has done a great job assembling more talent to this point.
Yet we've seen teams built, torn apart and rebuilt several times now over the past two decades. While it has been a terrible failure I have taken one lesson from it.
No new FO can build the entire team the way they want it in one off season. It's just not possible. I do think this FO had one advantage coming into it. There was certainly more talent already on the roster for them to build on than any other FO since 1999.
But I still don't believe the roster is where they want it to be at every position. I think the LB position is one such case.
If I take just that one particular thought on it's own.
Then it means they should have given Freddie and Dorsey more time.
oh, my first reaction was, I hate the words next year. Tryin to convince me the team will do anything "next year" is an absolute crock. The time for next year is over.
I think it is over. We were aggressive and signed some key free agents and had what looks to be a very good draft. We got lucky in a few spots where BPA was also filling some critical needs.
Or we want our LBs to play downhill and throw their bodies around. They expect them to get banged up and need replaced. No sense in paying a ton for an expensive one who "can cover" if that's not what they want them to focus on.
Focus on getting in the backfield and negative plays on early downs, so you don't need more than one LB on the field in long down and distance situations.
Mack needed seasoning last year. He got some. We'll see what he does with it.
You missed the mark by a mile. It's not isolated to the Browns. Any time an entire new regime takes place on any NFL team it undergoes a lot of roster change that doesn't all take place in the first year. We will see other positions and players addressed next off season to make the talent on the roster more and more in tune with what the new coaching staff wishes to implement.
This season will be a feeling out process on where and how much will need to be done at different positions. ie... We have two very young LB'ers. Will we need to add talent there or will they progress enough to be able to avoid that? Only time will answer that question.
I'm hesitant to sign any sort of lucrative deal that would effect the 2021 salary cap. The salary cap adjusts based on the previous year's net income for the entire league. There is a high likelihood that the cap may drop next year due to the financial impact of the outbreak not only within the league but in regards to the spending money of its fans.
No doubt it will balloon in 2022 with the expanded playoffs and new television deal income, but all teams may face a hurdle to get past 2021 nonetheless.
The Cleveland Plain-Dealer's Mary Kay Cabot reports the Browns "haven't given up on" signing free agent Jadeveon Clowney.
Clowney and current Browns DE Myles Garrett share the same agent, Bus Cook, and Cook has been talking with the Browns about both players' contract situations, as Garrett is seeking a long-term deal. Clowney reportedly received his best offer from the Browns earlier in the offseason, but it wasn't close to what he was looking for, which is believed to still be around $17-18 million per year. Clowney is staying patient and playing the long game as the country continues to deal with bigger issues outside of sports.
RELATED: Cleveland Browns SOURCE: Cleveland Plain-Dealer Jun 13, 2020, 9:08 AM ET
How much does it cost to ride the pine for a season?
Any chance the agent is holding this up? Unfamiliar with his reputation and track record. I figure the longer it goes, that may be a piece of this pie. No reason to sell the farm for him. JMO.
At this point it could be that Clowney and his agent are playing the long game. In the event that a team has a major injury of a key player at the position, is value may go up.
Got the woe is us attitude as Browns fans we always hope and think we got it going finally and yet here we are.
But, just look at the football logically. Its all about talent first cause this is not High School or College where a fine oiled machine can make up for talent. No - number one in this NFL thing is talent. And logically we can break it down even further.
Rare talent.
#1 QB, I know you and others don't believe it is so. But humor me and lets say we got a Franchise QB or at least you got to give me a kid with a great arm and is a hard worker not an idiot like Manziel. All I know is Baker is the best we have had since 1999. So at the least we got an average QB (I think a lot more than avg.)
#2 LT and in this day and age RT as well the edges are so important to the pass game and run games. We got a FA that is considered one of the best RTs in the NFL. We just drafted who is considered before the draft by Joe Thomas as the #1 LT prospect in this draft. Major upgrades from last year.
#3 Edge Rushers, we got one of the best in the NFL in Myles Garrett and a healthy Vernon who is pretty darn good.
#4 Cover Corners. We got Ward who is a cover stud. We also have Mitchell and Greedy both above average.
Those are the rare positions in football. We are sitting pretty in all of them.
We are doing pretty darn good in other positions as well. OG, Center, RB maybe best group in NFL, WR top guns, TE top guns. A little light in the LB position in proven talent.
My point is never before have we had this much talent, top talent, well rounded talent since 1999 and for that matter many years before that.
So saying look at our woeful history just doesn't cut it.
Yes, be cautious, it aint so until we have seen it, I get it. But the prospects are there and that is a fact! We have talent and depth. The ONLY THING that can make it a negative is the fact that we got a NEW System in O n D so that it will take some time to gel add in the unknown on Corona Virus NFL will it be harder to gel or actually all studying together hard might have the gel go quicker when we finally get on the field.
Its an unknown that is for sure. I am cautious as well. We are at worst an 8-8 team. Cause we improved the talent from last year and so far its been visible that we have a better coaching process in.
Anyway please be cautious, I know you are a great Browns fan Vers as well. But this see our history as proof just belies the logic of Football and the value of TALENT.
Maybe so. Not arguing it may happen just like that. But his value is already up, inflated by his ego as to the deal he deserves and the money he feels he can command. Waiting for an injury seems like drawing to an inside straight. He would have little control in his decision as far as club and location.
Seems to have many better choices as I see it in FA. But I still wonder how genuinely helpful his agent is being. But the wait and see leads us back to my first question, how much does riding the pine subtract from a contract after rejecting offers and having to scale back bloated expectations? Seems well on the road to a "show me" which has all the features he wants to avoid. Can't be a star if you don't suit up. Maybe he is gunning for retiring.
We don't actually see this all that differently. Maye in a couple of places and one major misgiving you seem to have on one of my opinions.
That misgiving would be Baker. I'm not one to say that Baker, "may not be" a great QB. What I do look at is the difference between 2018 and 219. While the systems and coaches were different, his accuracy was certainly starkly different. So to me the jury is out an what Baker will become. I don't make the claim that some do by either predicting greatness or a failure from him because the jury is still out. To me it could go either way but as a Browns fan I am staying cautiously optimistic.
And I do agree that talent is the driving force to success. Yet at the same time I look at it sort of like an auto race. No matter how great your car has the potential to perform, without a great driver, that car isn't going to win any races. I compare that driver to the HC.
You also have your pit crew and mechanics. I liken that to the coaching staff as a whole. Without them having your car in top shape, being able to adapt and perform at peak ability, your car will not win any races.
We haven't see this HC ever drive a car in a race before. While we all hope for the best and many claim they know how he will perform, we really have no idea.
So while we agree that the talent is a must have from the very beginning, I see how important other parts of this equation are. And there are a lot of questions still left unanswered.
The Cleveland Plain-Dealer's Mary Kay Cabot reports the Browns "haven't given up on" signing free agent Jadeveon Clowney.
Clowney and current Browns DE Myles Garrett share the same agent, Bus Cook, and Cook has been talking with the Browns about both players' contract situations, as Garrett is seeking a long-term deal. Clowney reportedly received his best offer from the Browns earlier in the offseason, but it wasn't close to what he was looking for, which is believed to still be around $17-18 million per year. Clowney is staying patient and playing the long game as the country continues to deal with bigger issues outside of sports.
RELATED: Cleveland Browns SOURCE: Cleveland Plain-Dealer Jun 13, 2020, 9:08 AM ET
In no world is Clowney worth more than Calais Campbell..I don't care how long he waits. I'd throw 15 mill/year at Griffen way before Clowney
It just seemed like he was never comfortable ... whether that was the offense, the need to get OBJ the ball, a lack of trust in the OL, etc .. he was “off” from the get go
It just seemed like he was never comfortable ... whether that was the offense, the need to get OBJ the ball, a lack of trust in the OL, etc .. he was “off” from the get go
You listed three possible reasons why he was uncomfortable. None of those reasons mentioned Baker himself. That's not very realistic or fair.
PFF's Steve Palazzolo was interviewed on local sports talk yesterday, and he mentioned Beckham "rounded off" his 18-yard dig routes (square-in) "so many times" and that it was one of the reasons for Mayfield's difficulty connecting with him. On timing routes, a receiver needs to be where the QB expects him to be, and that wasn't always the case. Maybe Beckham's injury prevented him from accelerating out of breaks like he used to?
It was a wide ranging interview, worth listening to, but the parts about Beckham were between the 5 and 7 minute mark.
It just seemed like he was never comfortable ... whether that was the offense, the need to get OBJ the ball, a lack of trust in the OL, etc .. he was “off” from the get go
You listed three possible reasons why he was uncomfortable. None of those reasons mentioned Baker himself. That's not very realistic or fair.
well I ASSumed that goes without saying haha .. I mean everyone’s still in charge of their own performance
The Cleveland Plain-Dealer's Mary Kay Cabot reports the Browns "haven't given up on" signing free agent Jadeveon Clowney.
Clowney and current Browns DE Myles Garrett share the same agent, Bus Cook, and Cook has been talking with the Browns about both players' contract situations, as Garrett is seeking a long-term deal. Clowney reportedly received his best offer from the Browns earlier in the offseason, but it wasn't close to what he was looking for, which is believed to still be around $17-18 million per year. Clowney is staying patient and playing the long game as the country continues to deal with bigger issues outside of sports.
RELATED: Cleveland Browns SOURCE: Cleveland Plain-Dealer Jun 13, 2020, 9:08 AM ET
In no world is Clowney worth more than Calais Campbell..I don't care how long he waits. I'd throw 15 mill/year at Griffen way before Clowney
No world except the sports world. You're not paying for past production, you're paying for future production in a system where the pool of money constantly increases.
Clowney hasn't benefited from exceptional secondary play. His time in Seattle was post-Legion of Boom. Houston didn't really have a shutdown secondary, either.
I'm curious to see what he could do with QBs having to hold the ball longer.
He's the only name you mentioned that isn't over 30. In sports, that matters when it comes to cost.
The Cleveland Plain-Dealer's Mary Kay Cabot reports the Browns "haven't given up on" signing free agent Jadeveon Clowney.
Clowney and current Browns DE Myles Garrett share the same agent, Bus Cook, and Cook has been talking with the Browns about both players' contract situations, as Garrett is seeking a long-term deal. Clowney reportedly received his best offer from the Browns earlier in the offseason, but it wasn't close to what he was looking for, which is believed to still be around $17-18 million per year. Clowney is staying patient and playing the long game as the country continues to deal with bigger issues outside of sports.
RELATED: Cleveland Browns SOURCE: Cleveland Plain-Dealer Jun 13, 2020, 9:08 AM ET
In no world is Clowney worth more than Calais Campbell..I don't care how long he waits. I'd throw 15 mill/year at Griffen way before Clowney
No world except the sports world. You're not paying for past production, you're paying for future production in a system where the pool of money constantly increases.
Clowney hasn't benefited from exceptional secondary play. His time in Seattle was post-Legion of Boom. Houston didn't really have a shutdown secondary, either.
I'm curious to see what he could do with QBs having to hold the ball longer.
He's the only name you mentioned that isn't over 30. In sports, that matters when it comes to cost.
You absolutely use past performance to determine value, and hes never been worth 15 million let alone the 17-20m..he's never had elite numbers and 20m a year is elite territory. I've said before, if thats where hes at, I roll with vernon/Clayborn. Or if I'm looking for a 1/2 year stop gap Griffen. If Clowney wants to be reasonable and we can get some type of package deal down with Bus then that benefits the browns long term, but if he's feeling lowballed at 15m thats just not real life. But I admit, him and a motivated MG could be scary.. Clowney needs a stud on the other side to be productive. In the end its not my money, but I don't think DE is an area we are weak enough to worry about, I'm more concerned about LB
I don't like car racing so it is impossible for us to agree...lol
Baker will be just fine. Even with last seasons Baker which is almost impossible with the work he has put in to not duplicate. But even if the worst Baker out there is in play we still win 8 or more!
I think we have a coaching staff who may be able to game plan around "2019 Baker" if that happens. I also agree the kid has enough talent that he can overcome the sophomore slump.
With a new coaching staff being held back from working with the players to install new systems and verbage on both sides of the ball, I think all teams, including ourselves, are put at a distinct disadvantage with the virus.
he mentioned Beckham "rounded off" his 18-yard dig routes (square-in) "so many times" and that it was one of the reasons for Mayfield's difficulty connecting with him.
The amount of practice time our QBs and WRs spent on the practice field to get the timing right...it was not enough time together.
The injury absolutely was an issue, no way he could be effective with a serious sports hernia. I expect everyone to be on the same page this season even though it is a new offense.
I don't put the blame solely on coaching or Baker has to have his system or he cannot play.
I agree a good coach will try to take advantage of the talents that they have and that does not start and end with the QB.
the FO has already created a better working environment with acquiring a Pro Bowl RT and drafting a top LT prospect. By all accounts at least according to the PFF stuff put out the Browns had one of the worst performance of RT n LT positions for the Air game. It is not everything but it sure do help and in case of last year it helped in the negative results as well.
But Baker was off last season for sure. But I see why and with that am not too about it. Some your reactions are just in my eyes ridiculous. I think we have a system that is being put in where an AVERAGE QB like Garapollo (49ers) looks great. Its going to be all about the run...jmho With teams playing the run Baker should tear them apart.
Thanks for the answer. Hadn't heard. The way this has been handled by him, his agent, or the pair of them makes me feel like this is a problem if he is signed. There are some 'dudes up with which we should not put. Get somebody else in unless The Numbers on The Deal are worth issues. Going to be hard to keep folks happy getting their prime time, a "problem" when you have depth in talent.
I am willing to risk it if he buys into playing hard here.
Random thought...I'd rather trade for Jamal Adams than sign Clowney. Adams would have a greater positive impact on our defense than adding Clowney.
What is the compensation required to get Adams versus getting Clowney?
Clowney: My guess is that it will take $18 million\yr. Likely a 2 year contract. No draft pick compensation as he is a free agent.
Adams: will need to rework his contract. My guess is $15-18 million\yr for 4 years. We also need to trade for him as he is currently a jet. We would definitely have to give up our 1st rounder next year and some additional compensation. A 3rd or a 4th most likely. Maybe Njoku instead of that 2nd pick.
Only included the part of the article that is relevant to Adams. Click the link at the bottom for the rest of the article
What about Jamal Adams? How will offense work? Let’s talk Cleveland Browns! Today 5:32 AM
By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer WHAT ABOUT JAMAL ADAMS?
Some Browns fans have been wondering about the Browns dealing for Jamal Adams. After all, he is a big time safety. The Browns need a safety, right?
Adams reportedly is demanding a trade from the Jets. He makes $7.7 million this season, and $9.9 million in 2021. Adams wants to be the highest-paid safety in the NFL, meaning more than $15 million annually.
Adams is a fierce tackling safety, especially effective in the Gregg Williams blitzing system. He had 6.5 sacks and 13 QB hits in 2019. The Jets supposedly turned down a first- and third-round pick from Dallas for Adams last season.
Here’s what the Browns have to be thinking:
1. Is Adams worth at least one first round pick and other stuff?
2. Along with the picks, is he worth a new contract that would raise the bar for other Browns young stars coming up for extensions?
3. Is safety where you want to put your big money? Why haven’t the Jets signed him? The Jets have $24 million in salary cap space, according to overthecap.com.
One of the big arguments for an Adams trade is the Pittsburgh Steelers ... as in their 2019 deal for Minkah Fitzpatrick. They sent a 2020 first-rounder to Miami for the Alabama safety, and he delivered five interceptions and was an All-Pro selection. There were swaps of other lesser picks, but the key was the Steelers trading a first-rounder – something that organization hates to do.
Why did they do it?
1. When the Steelers traded for Fitzpatrick, he had been in the NFL for only one season. He had three years and a modest $6 million left on his original deal. He received a $10 million signing bonus.
2. Fitzpatrick isn’t even eligible to start talking about a contract extension until the spring of 2021. The Steelers have an option to keep him through the 2022 season.
3. Unlike Adams who wants a new deal and is eligible for that now, Fitzpatrick came with no contractual complications.
THE BIG PICTURE
The Browns have the NFL’s most salary cap room with $37 million. They also know they aren’t going to win the Super Bowl this season, although they don’t say it.
Let’s think about the situation:
1. The Browns have a new coaching staff, new offensive and defensive systems. No matter what they say, COVID-19 knocking out the on-field workouts is a huge setback. Zoom is one learning tool, but so much of football is muscle memory.
2. The Browns are talking about a massive contract extension for Myles Garrett. You’d rather put money into a pass-rushing defensive end than a safety.
3. This season is a chance to find out about QB Baker Mayfield. He isn’t eligible for a contract extension until 2021. But if he has a big year, Mayfield will be expensive at some point.
4. Nick Chubb and Denzel Ward also are eligible for extensions in 2021. Ward has to show he can stay healthy and be the Pro Bowl cornerback he was as a rookie in 2018. Chubb is simply the best Browns running back I’ve seen since the Jim Brown/Leroy Kelly days of my youth.
5. Larry Ogunjobi is eligible for an extension. The new front office likes him and values defensive linemen.
6. It’s hard to imagine the Browns putting huge money into a safety such as Adams. The Browns want and expect improvement over the 6-10 record in 2019. But they also need to find out about some of their younger players and plan for contract extensions.
THEN THERE’S THE DRAFT
The Browns were thrilled to get Grant Delpit in the second round. I’m told they had a first-round grade (or at least a very high-second round grade) on Delpit. They think the LSU safety can be an impact player while on a rookie contract.
After the draft, Kevin Stefanski gushed about Delpit: “You can play him in every job in the back end (defensive backfield) except corner. He can be in the post. He can be down low. He can play the nickel. He can play the dime. A guy who can play across the defense is impressive.”
Lots of football jargon, but point is the Browns were already imagining different ways to use Delpit.
“He is a playmaker and something we’ll stress is making plays on the ball,” added Stefanski.
There are issues with Delpit’s tackling beyond the fact he played with a high-ankle sprain part of last season. But the Browns believe that will improve. GM Andrew Berry loves Delpit’s “toughness ... he played with that injury that would have put a lot of players out of commission.”
Delpit was the Jim Thorpe Award winner as the nation’s top defensive back.
“He’s a very accomplished football player,” said Berry. “His skillset is very difficult to find. It allows you more flexibility as a defensive coordinator.”
FACT: They want Delpit to play and believe he will make an immediate impact at safety.
The Browns signed veterans Karl Joseph and Andrew Sendejo. Joseph is a hard-hitter, best against the run. They have Sheldrick Redwine left over from the 2019 draft. He showed a bit of promise. They signed Elijah Benton (Liberty) as an undrafted free agent. I heard he was one of the Browns’ top targets in that market.
My proposition was purely about the talent on the field. No consideration of money. All things being equal if the team has enough money to sign Clowney, they have enough to sign Adams instead of Clowney. Adams and Delpit do not play the same position. Adding Adams has the potential of accelerating Delpits transition to the pro game. Adams is much more of a hybrid linebacker/safety player. Having Adams Delpit and Joeseph on the field together would allow woods to play his Nickle as his base defense. It would allow the defense to transition to the Dime base defense much sooner than otherwise possible. Adams would decrease the linebacking pass coverage weakness that everyone keeps talking about.
I don't see where investing 12-15m million in Clowney pays any more dividends than the same investment in Adams. Actually I think that Adams brings more dimensions to the defense than Clowney offers.
If he can be had with a 2nd round pick it seems very doable. I'd be surprised if the Jets are able to get a #1 for him.
I read nearly every post in this thread, some caused me to think, and I always like posts that make me think. I'll touch on some of what I sort of want to respond too.
1st I don't discount that Bake had some issues last year as was pointed out, he still hasn't shown the ability to bring the team from behind when we need a score to end and win a game. That is probably my greatest concern.
I don't think Bake had accuracy issues like some do. I think of the games he had with Landry and how they took apart Baltimore for instances. Landry was simply where he was suppose to be when he was suppose to be there. OBJ not so much. When you look at timing routes and OBJ they were non existent. If blame needs to be credited I credit OBJ. By injury or by poor route running he simply wasn't the weapon we imagined. Poor line play didn't help. Bake could have been much better, but I am not so sure I buy the accuracy thing. And no he did make some bad throws, but I don't lay the offensive struggles at his feet, at least not yet. He was part of the problem not the whole problem, IMO.
Moving forward I think the Browns have set the table to be a team that is going to pound the ball with a healthy dose of play action, and of course the occasional deep ball when teams load the box. The addition of Conklin and Wills the troublesome tackle positions have been addressed. This should open up this offense, and if any of us know anything pressure disrupts the very best QB's.
My hope is that KS works slowly to bring the O line up to speed keeps things very vanilla and works in season to get beyond basics. With this Covid-19 thing sticking to basics IMO is key to early success and expanding the offense as the season unfolds should pay off. To many new players and to little time, basics is key.
Now the defense and what I think is that we are going to see a very unique defensive alignment that will be about creating pressure in ways we haven't witnessed in the past. I am probably crazy here I will admit but when we play Baltimore I see us loading up the D line with plenty of back end speed. I see us going to a six man front when Baltimore goes to their 2-3 TE sets (primary running formations) and you know what will win those battles.
I don't think it's a Clowney, Vernon either or I think it's both with Richardson and Ogunjobi in the middle with Vernon and Clayborn, Clowney, and Garret. Speed on the outside meat and potato guys on the inside. Will win at the LOS and create pressure all at one time. We need a real thump-er in the middle (Linebacker). Some one that sheds blocks and lays the wood preferably a linebacker safety combo. I think a CJ Ward type safety would be huge in this style of defense. maybe not the best in coverage but a sure tackler in the running game who can cover long enough for the pressure to arrive, which won't take long with this alignment.
Again any retooling will take time, although I can see us running this alignment with one or 2 basics from it. In the long run I could see us dropping Garret or Clowney and bringing pressure from different angles.
I am to be sure NOT all that sure what will do on the defensive side of the ball, but based on the players they have brought in or are trying to bring in, I see us really loading up on the line to the point where LB has become almost an after thought. For sure with a six man front it's going to be awfully hard to get blockers to the second level much less win at the LOS. My crazy thought for the day.
If I had to make a choice between Adams or Clowney I would take Adams. He's one of the best in the league at his position and is a leader on D. Clowney is good but not the impact player Adams is.
If I had to make a choice between Adams or Clowney I would take Adams. He's one of the best in the league at his position and is a leader on D. Clowney is good but not the impact player Adams is.
Adams, a first round pick, another late round pick, and an extension or Clowney and his contract. The answer is easy.
1st I don't discount that Bake had some issues last year as was pointed out, he still hasn't shown the ability to bring the team from behind when we need a score to end and win a game. That is probably my greatest concern.
I agree. Been beating this drum for awhile. I think being clutch is something you either have or don't but can also be developed by actually doing it and gaining some confidence. Baker is great when he's ahead and piling it on. Tightens up when the game is on the line. I want to see come back wins against quality opponents where it's his play, him putting the team on his shoulders, that is the difference in the game.
Just to add a little more to that. I want to see us hang in and win a track meet if we need to. Match scores and hang closer. Tired of blown first half leads or going in down three scores or so at halftime. An offense that can't score when needed; a defense that can't get itself off the field. Which one do you count on for wins?
Bring the fight to them. Bakes needs to lock the killer instinct down. No mercy.
If I had to make a choice between Adams or Clowney I would take Adams. He's one of the best in the league at his position and is a leader on D. Clowney is good but not the impact player Adams is.
Adams, a first round pick, another late round pick, and an extension or Clowney and his contract. The answer is easy.
If the argument is exclusively who is easier to acquire the answer would be Clowney. But if the question is who would bring more value to the defense I believe its Adams. I also don't believe it will cost a #1 to get Adams. It's going to be a buyer's market on Adams. I think the player has some leverage here and the Jets might realize holding out for a #1 just allows a bad relationship to fester.
If I had to make a choice between Adams or Clowney I would take Adams. He's one of the best in the league at his position and is a leader on D. Clowney is good but not the impact player Adams is.
Adams, a first round pick, another late round pick, and an extension or Clowney and his contract. The answer is easy.
If the argument is exclusively who is easier to acquire the answer would be Clowney. But if the question is who would bring more value to the defense I believe its Adams. I also don't believe it will cost a #1 to get Adams. It's going to be a buyer's market on Adams. I think the player has some leverage here and the Jets might realize holding out for a #1 just allows a bad relationship to fester.
It’s not just about this year, that’s the point. It’s about future value also.
Who impacts the team more Clowney and the picks we don’t give up for Adams or Adams without the picks? Future value of picks is important especially with the contracts we will have to give out soon.
1st I don't discount that Bake had some issues last year as was pointed out, he still hasn't shown the ability to bring the team from behind when we need a score to end and win a game. That is probably my greatest concern.
I agree. Been beating this drum for awhile. I think being clutch is something you either have or don't but can also be developed by actually doing it and gaining some confidence. Baker is great when he's ahead and piling it on. Tightens up when the game is on the line. I want to see come back wins against quality opponents where it's his play, him putting the team on his shoulders, that is the difference in the game.
He's had 5 game-winning drives in his two year career. He's played in 30 games thus far...the Browns have won 13 of those 30 games.
I can only recollect one game when HIS last play ended our chances to win a game - second Rats game in his rookie year...last game of the season.
Disclaimer: This is NOT me disagreeing with your/this theory.
I DO think he has the confidence and skills to be a very clutch QB. I also think it's too early in his career to label him as being unable/able to be a comeback-wonder at QB.
I'm not sure what you see in my opinion that was "ridiculous"?
I was simply trying to have a conversation with you about the topic. But I should have known better.
No opinion is ridiculous. Yeah I know I used a word "ridiculous" and it is the only thing that concerns you...got it.
Ridiculous to me is the ASSUMPTIONS made on 2019 after we saw what we saw in 2018. This isn't a Joe Carbaneau situation. One time wonder. And he didn't just have a good season, he did things NO OTHER ROOKIE QB did before him. The stance you take of him being a Possible bust is to me Ridiculous, I could have searched for a better word as to not insult you. But it is the word that came to my head. Sorry you took it as a major insult to the discussion. And your view is not by yourself but by several posters many who are trolls and no I'm not talking about your buddy Vers, but others.
But You should have known better is maybe more of an insult than my use of the word Ridiculous. You opinion is not Ridiculous but some of your implications are. That's that. I'm not going to BS you. And I'm telling you why and in what context I meant the use of the word Ridiculous. I thought you were a mind reader and could know how I meant it...too often that is the case in a "DISCUSSION" on a message board. I would say hey take a chill pill but I have taken a similar response to an accusation made by a poster that I took offense to...lol
I didn't actually take offense. I just found it to be typical and how actual discussions end up going off the rails.
Most people refuse to pretend that 2019 didn't happen. Most don't blame "everything" on the coaching staff. Trying to pretend what a QB did in college means anything on the NFL level is only fooling themselves. The track record of Heisman winning QB's tells that story quite well. It's a flip a coin issue at best.
Common sense dictates that the jury is still out on Mayfield. The problem seems to be that it's not good enough for you if someone doesn't stand up and proclaim him the best thing since sliced bread. All of us as Browns fans want you to be right.
However, we watched 16 games last year and refuse to absolve Mayfield of any responsibility. I've seen parents do that with their children and it never seems to turn out well.
Some don't seem to understand just how bad the coaching staff affected our team... from the standpoint of how it seem to creep into darn near every aspect/position group. I'm not absolving Mayfield of his poor play, but I just find it really hard to make a solid determination of how bad he was, given everything that was going on around him.
Which is why I say the jury is out on whether we will get 2018 Baker or 2019 Baker.
Much as you said, I'm not absolving Mayfield of all responsibility, but I have no idea exactly how much of his performance he was responsible for. You see, some seem to think they have all the answers. They seem to claim it was all on the coaching staff. Some seem to blame Baker for most all of it.
None of these people were in the locker room, on the field or in the heads of any of our players. And while everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, that's all any of it is. So I'm taking what I consider is a realistic approach when i say I have no idea.
As such, I'm not going to pretend I do. I see how Baker will perform in 2020 as a big question mark. And if anyone else is honest, that would have to be what they see too.
2018 let us know for a fact that the talent is there. The OL has certainly been addressed and we have a new coaching staff. In saying that, we have no idea how good this coaching staff will be working as a unit. Stefanski has never been an NFL HC before. Once again, people use conjecture and opinion to try and bolster it. But that fact is, when someone has never done a job before everything you think you know is actually only something you believe to be true.
So while as a Browns fan I always hope for the best, a lot of questions remain. In fact, far more questions than answers at this point. That without a doubt is factual and it cracks me up sometimes when people get so upset when facts don't measure up to their expectations and opinions.
The stance that some of us (dont confuse me with Devicedawgs stances) just refuse to say Baker had a bad season. And yet in almost every post I make I state that he was off, that he must make adjustments.
But actually ironically it is you who pretends that 2018 didn't happen. Then you bring up college football as our standard to judge Baker...why make up a statement to make you look smarter than what you are on the subject. There are some facts that come with Baker from college after all that is what made him the overall #1 pick. But the STANDARD I and others judge Baker with in a positive manner was his play in 2018. you know actual NFL FOOTBALL not this pretend statement about College football. If you're going to play, play fair don't make up scenarios that do not exist to make you look Correct.
That to me says you don't have a leg to stand on so you make up imaginary scenarios and then stat that is my and others stance on the subject. smh
Most people refuse to pretend that 2019 didn't happen. Most don't blame "everything" on the coaching staff. Trying to pretend what a QB did in college means anything on the NFL level is only fooling themselves. The track record of Heisman winning QB's tells that story quite well. It's a flip a coin issue at best.
Again you make up what I state to mean and then make comments like "SWING AND MISS" as if it is so cause yo say it. That is how you discuss and debate...insult and claim victory in by making up FALSE scenarios that do not exist in my discussion at all.
Once again you show your inferior knowledge on football and try to debate in a flim flam manner by making up stuff. Try again...smh
I am not sure what they say but I do know what I have seen and in pressure situations with the clock running out Bake has come up short repeatedly.
The stats they gather an use I would seriously question if that is what they say?
Stats are just stats. They rarely show a complete picture.
I still only recollect one game where Baker couldn't get the team to a late score. The stats suggest that he did do so five times in his two year career.
I do recollect the Bills game last year where he was clutch in getting a TD pass that gave us the lead on what would be our last possession - outside of taking a knee?
I also look at his performance in his first real NFL game. He came in unfazed and led the team to a W on national primetime TV - and on a team that had won (1) game in the previous (35). The pressure was tremendous and he delivered...not a last second play to win, but ridiculously impressive nonetheless. He's got "it" in him.
Do you recollect a game where he didn't deliver at the end to win? A game that he could have turned at the last minute and did not? I honestly don't other than the Ravens game I mentioned above. That doesn't mean I'm saying there wasn't one...just that I don't recollect one.
In the end, I think it's too early to say whether he will be clutch at the end to bring home the W.
Start with the number of wins - 13 out of 30. So he's losing way more than he's winning.
Then add in the fact his record is better against teams with losing records than winning records. He really seems to be beat up on the bad teams. He spent the second half of 2018 doing just that. Last year his best game was against Miami. I will admit that sometimes he doesn't even get a chance to be clutch against good teams because the team gets down so big so fast. But a lot of that is on him too. You can probably point to four or five games where this is the case, Texans 2018, KC 2018, SF 2019 just off the top of my head. Guess what? They were all good teams.
in terms of come back wins against good teams, you have failures against the Ravens 2018, Rams 2019, Seattle 2019, and the Titans 2019 just off the top of my head. We still had a chance to win that Titans game last year before he fell apart. All four teams are good teams. There's a theme here. The Bills win was great and he deserves a notch in his belt for that one.
His very first game was great but the Jets are a terrible team and rival the Browns in futility. It was still a lot of fun and he played great and brought the team back. I think the Jets drafted 3rd after that season.
I trust what my eyes are telling me. Baker struggles with confidence and production when the level of competition is upped, the score is tight, and the team needs him. He doesn't appear to possess that extra will and ability to get it done against the best when it matters most.
I hope I'm wrong. I'm in Baker's corner. I am just commenting on what I see.
1. Needs to play better against better competition throughout the game. 2. Needs to produce late in games when the game is still in doubt and win the game, especially against good teams.
I will fully admit that last year was a complete cluster. But I've had this concern with Baker since I saw him play in the playoff game in college against UGA.
Start with the number of wins - 13 out of 30. So he's losing way more than he's winning.
Then add in the fact his record is better against teams with losing records than winning records. He really seems to be beat up on the bad teams. He spent the second half of 2018 doing just that. Last year his best game was against Miami. I will admit that sometimes he doesn't even get a chance to be clutch against good teams because the team gets down so big so fast. But a lot of that is on him too. You can probably point to four or five games where this is the case, Texans 2018, KC 2018, SF 2019 just off the top of my head. Guess what? They were all good teams.
in terms of come back wins against good teams, you have failures against the Ravens 2018, Rams 2019, Seattle 2019, and the Titans 2019 just off the top of my head. We still had a chance to win that Titans game last year before he fell apart. All four teams are good teams. There's a theme here. The Bills win was great and he deserves a notch in his belt for that one.
His very first game was great but the Jets are a terrible team and rival the Browns in futility. It was still a lot of fun and he played great and brought the team back. I think the Jets drafted 3rd after that season.
I trust what my eyes are telling me. Baker struggles with confidence and production when the level of competition is upped, the score is tight, and the team needs him. He doesn't appear to possess that extra will and ability to get it done against the best when it matters most.
I hope I'm wrong. I'm in Baker's corner. I am just commenting on what I see.
1. Needs to play better against better competition throughout the game. 2. Needs to produce late in games when the game is still in doubt and win the game, especially against good teams.
I will fully admit that last year was a complete cluster. But I've had this concern with Baker since I saw him play in the playoff game in college against UGA.
You can only play the teams on your schedule.
I'd argue the turning point of last season was the Greg Robinson kick game. Baker got teed off on that game.
I'm hoping with better protection and more experience, hopefully more structure and healthy receivers, he'll bounce back this year.
I still only recollect one game where Baker couldn't get the team to a late score.
There are several games where Baker failed at the end. I'll start w/two and see if you want to continue. Seattle and the Rams this past year. Do you want links?
I am not going to review both those games versatile, but I did look at 15-20 minutes of the Seattle game. Seahawks went ahead with 3:30 still on the clock. These highlights did not show all the plays but they showed baker throwing the ball to Hilliard. Ball was behind him but it hit him squarely in both hands. Should have been caught but was instead intercepted. Seahawks ran out the clock because our defense could not stop them. This was not an example of baker failing to perform in crunch time imo.
I still only recollect one game where Baker couldn't get the team to a late score.
There are several games where Baker failed at the end. I'll start w/two and see if you want to continue. Seattle and the Rams this past year. Do you want links?
Is it Baker or the offense in general, don't answer it's Rhetorical
Even in 2018, during Both Coaching manifestations, It was notable how the Offense was poor duing overtime drives, I recall maybe every first possession was a 3 and out, or a 5 and out, 50% or less on drives in OT to get into scoring position.
BUT! Baker has a Way higher percentage of converting 2nd and very longs, or 3rd and longs than the ENTIRE LAUNDRY LIST of Browns QB's preceding him
What do ya want to Go Back to a version of Colt McCoy?
McCoy, IMO, was about the most consistent, as far as being able to matriculate 6 yards on a 3rd and 7-8, BUT, he sure as heck couldn't get the team out of 2nd and very long or 3rd and longs with anywhere near the percentage Baker offers you.
Another thing:
Like in the late drives vs Baltimore near the end of the season, (2-3 years ago, and or last year) The offense goes very bland
Seriously? They are rushing low percentage quick passes with no cuts by the receiver, as if too worried about a turnover or whatever the freak, I don't know,
BUT WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT? Isn't the OC supposed to have a plan, (scoff/laugh) Do you see basketball teams in a last minute time out, come to the side of the court, and IT'S THE COACH, that's got the dry erase board out diagraming how he wants the ball inbounded and the last shot set up.
If the Browns, come out and play less dynamic than they had for many earlier posessions,
IS THAT BAKERS' FAULT or IS THAT THE OFFENSIVE COORD. AND COACHES FAULT
Or is that just preparations fault, Or is that just the continuity of a years(plural years) long working relationship not being present's fault
I already don't believe it coul be a talent fault, because at the NFL level I don't believe talent wins in those situations, it's chess match outthinking/scheming
Because everybodys talent is already 110% , in these end of game drives in the NFL, it's not how in College there may be a talent advantage that can be exploited,
Now, (because you always have to explain on Dawgtalkers), NOW! it's not to say there aren't some instances of lesser talent that doesn't belong on the field, like Browns bad linebackers from Ben Taylors rookie year, where Jamal Lewis ran for 900 yards in 2 games, Not to say that, But to say, those instances lead to blowout games which don't end in the situations we're talking about here.
End of game drives to win.
As I proofread I guess I have to go back on my point of view,
There is the case where there could be a talent advantage to be exploited on these snaps, in these end of game drives that decide the games, (But figuring out where the flip that matchup is in place on the Snap, and showcasing the moves on the dance that is that final deciding snap to prove that talent, by working together as a group, or at least duo,
Figuring that out and doing that, that's not talent, that's scheming, thinking, coaching, chess, and exploiting a weakness through knowledge.
(Watch the Patriots Super Bowl win on a goaline defending interception by aggressively pounding the Receiver out of his spot to the ball, positioned in a parallel, shoulder to shoulder sideways hit, which didn't come as a hit in his back, so that there was no chance for a penalty
Was that a 4.3 40 time? Was that someone 3 inches taller? Was that a super wide hand width?
I think with Delpit we have the talent to develop our own safety not to mention it would be a lot cheaper and the money can be used elsewhere. JMO
Ok I didn't respond 2 days ago when I read this because it's pointless and I wasn't as angry, But, ? kidding me, really think it matters.
Oh, they have Delpit? OM freaking goodness!!
What about Eric Wright, What about TJ Ward, What about Mike Adams, What about Tashaun Gipson, That Player they tried to tell us was good enough to replace Gipson, What about what's his name from Michigan they traded for Odell
YOU REALLY THINK THE BROWNS ARE GOING TO DEVELOP DELPIT? After all these times of parting away with players about to reach their prime.
Sure. They got a rookie development guy at Safety, He's a real good one, this time it's going to be different.
It's because you post is at the top of the page, and I keep seeing it every time this loads.
It's no coincidence the same folks who thought Hue should get a third season after 1-31 are the same ones who are ignoring the extremely poor coaching during Baker's second season.
Sure, it's entirely possible Baker sucks... and he obviously made mistakes along the way. But to ignore the inept coaching of 2019, a guy who told his quarterback to step away from football during the offseason, a guy who pretty much ignored the things his team does best, and place blame on a second year player is very very very disingenuous.
I'm not surprised by the polar opposites here, however. When we drafted Baker, I've always said people are going to love or hate him. No middle ground. After Baker wins us a Super Bowl there will still be Browns fans who will want to get rid of him.
I agree with you about the coaching. It matters in a big way.
But four chances from first and goal at the 5 (Rams game, for example) is about the players. The play don't matter. The coaching doesn't matter. You either make it happen or you don't. Things break down, you improvise, you get it done. You want it bad enough, you figure it out.
That's the kind of clutch I'm talking about. I don’t think Baker's clutchness had anything to do with Freddy's coaching. I think Baker's year in general had a lot to do with Freddy's coaching.
But I'm in Baker's corner in a big way. I think brighter days are ahead for him and the team.
There really are no "polar opposites" on here. There are those like myself who think there's enough blame to go around. Some rests on Freddie but some if it also rests on Baker. Trying to blame it all on either one of them is short sighted.
Then there are those who wish to absolve Baker of everything and blame everything on Freddie. Those two things are not "polar opposites".
It seems like you're focusing on the times he didn't rather than the times he did.
You're not going to win every game. Tom Brady has lost super bowls. Dan Marino has never won a super bowl. Peyton Manning has failed in the clutch...as have Brett Favre, John Elway, and Drew Brees.
I would also argue Baker is clutch. He has that trait. He's special.
It seems like you're focusing on the times he didn't rather than the times he did.
You're not going to win every game. Tom Brady has lost super bowls. Dan Marino has never won a super bowl. Peyton Manning has failed in the clutch...as have Brett Favre, John Elway, and Drew Brees.
I would also argue Baker is clutch. He has that trait. He's special.
I will subscribe to this line of thought when the team consistently wins more than it loses, consistently makes the playoffs, and wins big games against quality opponents at the last minute on the shoulders of Baker.
Otherwise I think what you're saying doesn't carry much weight. In two seasons he's won 13 out of 30 games with many opportunities to win at the end in those losses. While I recognize there are many factors that contribute to those losses, that doesn't paint a picture of clutch.
You forget you were an advocate for Hue to get another year as HC.
It seems to be you who forgets. I wanted him to get a shot with some actual talent on the roster. When it was obvious that didn't change anything, I was fine when he was fired. It didn't take me the entire season to figure out it was he who was the problem.
I'm not so sure Cam is as good as some think. I'd still consider giving the ball to Hoyer.
But if it's Cam, at least he's used to not having any good WR to throw to.
Kind of along these lines... are they planning on putting together a different type of offense for Cam, or is he expected to fit into the Patriot's existing O? How does their scheme look after TB walking?
I'm not so sure Cam is as good as some think. I'd still consider giving the ball to Hoyer.
But if it's Cam, at least he's used to not having any good WR to throw to.
Kind of along these lines... are they planning on putting together a different type of offense for Cam, or is he expected to fit into the Patriot's existing O? How does their scheme look after TB walking?
It's belichick,so I think it's safe to say Cam will have to fit his system....
The last time we played Carolina, I remember watching Cam and thinking "this guy can't throw anymore". The shoulder was obviously giving him trouble back then. Not sure its still an issue, but it looks like the League thinks it is.
The last time we played Carolina, I remember watching Cam and thinking "this guy can't throw anymore". The shoulder was obviously giving him trouble back then. Not sure its still an issue, but it looks like the League thinks it is.
His shoulder was supposedly healed last year and then he hurt his foot.
I'm not so sure Cam is as good as some think. I'd still consider giving the ball to Hoyer.
But if it's Cam, at least he's used to not having any good WR to throw to.
Kind of along these lines... are they planning on putting together a different type of offense for Cam, or is he expected to fit into the Patriot's existing O? How does their scheme look after TB walking?
It's belichick,so I think it's safe to say Cam will have to fit his system....
This is the exact opposite to how Belichick operates.
There really are no "polar opposites" on here. There are those like myself who think there's enough blame to go around. Some rests on Freddie but some if it also rests on Baker. Trying to blame it all on either one of them is short sighted.
Then there are those who wish to absolve Baker of everything and blame everything on Freddie. Those two things are not "polar opposites".
Gee whiz, what a fair and impartial judge you are. Your side is pure and clean as can be. The opposition to you. Just narrow minded and absolve Baker of EVERYTHING. If you cannot see you false narrative here then I feel sorry for you...smh
I'm not so sure Cam is as good as some think. I'd still consider giving the ball to Hoyer.
But if it's Cam, at least he's used to not having any good WR to throw to.
Kind of along these lines... are they planning on putting together a different type of offense for Cam, or is he expected to fit into the Patriot's existing O? How does their scheme look after TB walking?
It's belichick,so I think it's safe to say Cam will have to fit his system....
This is the exact opposite to how Belichick operates.
Agreed. Belichick is the master of adopting new things to fit his personnel and to combat the other team's strengths. I also think Josh McDaniels is one of the brightest offensive minds in the league.
If--and it is a big if--Cam is healthy, the Pats will changer their offense to highlight the things he does well and to mask some of the areas where he isn't as proficient.
Browns were the only other team to speak w/ Newton.
That’s good to know. I like that we are at least exploring all options.
True. Nothing wrong with that I suppose.
In the end, I think Cam said to himself that he has a better chance of starting in NE than here...shocking. At least for his next contract, his potential production ceiling seems higher there than here.
Who knows what would have transpired from media that loves QB battles during the preseason. It would have made for interesting story lines, that's for sure.
Well glad to see you recognize your post as a joke.
back to the thread:
Wow. I don't think Cam was obtained to be the starter although he might win that position.
I happen to think Cam is a lot better QB than many here.
The Panthers never built around him as in protection.. yes, over the years he has become damaged goods because of the lack of protection. But just like the Pats didn't have Brady run they will not build and offense where Cam will have to run. But...in case things break down he will be much more mobile than Brady and more apt to gain the yardage by running. No he won't be as accurate as Brady but he just might revive his career with the Pats.
jmho good luck to him except of course when we play them. Oh but against the Ravens and Steelers be play like a HOFer!
You take shots on reclamation projects and sometimes they pay off, other times they're Josh Gordon.
Players will take less money to play for a winner. That team has been bleeding talent for awhile, though (players and coaching). No Tom Brady, either. We'll see how it goes.
Maybe Cam can regain his MVP form, but it's been awhile since he showed it. I can't even say I know who his weapons will be anymore.
J/C. This is an interesting move to say the least. I don’t see Cam as the type of QB that Bill would want or one that fits that offense. I think going from Brady who is deadly accurate to Cam who is not makes me think they are gonna run a totally different scheme. When Cam was at his prime in Carolina they ran the ball and played good D. That is Old School Bellichick from back in the Cleveland days, maybe this is what he is gonna try again in NE this season.
With a host of notable free agents available to sign, a look at five teams with the most current cap space: 1. Browns: $38,705,703 2. Washington: $36,539,030 3. Lions (pre-Okudah): $29,188,916 4. Eagles: $24,577,909 5. Bengals: $24,236,690
Plus we are in the top half of the league in spending. I'm not so sure I'd continue to spend, although if it helps us win the Super Bowl this year... I'm all for it.
The Cleveland Browns currently have the most salary cap space in the NFL with $38.6 million. While often attributed to the Browns not spending and potentially being cheap, the Browns are currently slated to spend $201 million on salaries in 2020, which ranks 14th in the NFL. They have the most cap room in the league, but are nowhere near the bottom of the league in terms of how much they are spending on their team this year.
Creative accounting and an understanding of the salary cap has allowed them to create an excellent financial situation, which should enable the Browns to be one of the best teams in the league in 2021 and 2022.
The Pittsburgh Steelers have enjoyed sustained excellence for years, always flirting with the salary cap limit from year to year, coming up with creative solutions to move money and keep themselves under the cap. Going back to 2016, the Browns tore down their team in terms of salary, creating a ton of salary cap, rolling it over from year to year, creating a massive cushion to operate.
The result is the following.
2020 Salaries Cap Space
Browns $201.6 million $38.6 million
Steelers $206.3 million $5.69 million
The NFL is set up to make sustained excellence really difficult to achieve. Despite the fact the Steelers are only paying five million more in salary, the Browns are in a comfortable position from a salary cap standpoint.
So, the question is how?
Let's use some really nice, round numbers to illustrate how it works. Say the Browns had $50 million in cap space in 2016 after tearing the team down to the studs to rebuild. There comes a point when teams can rollover their unused cap space into the next year. In 2016, the Browns would've rolled over that $50 million. Assuming all other expenses remain constant, the Browns would then have the $50 million in space and $50 million in rollover cap, giving them $100 million in cap space total to start out 2017.
Now, add in the adjustment in the salary cap, which has tended to be about $10 to $12 million per season. For the sake of simplicity, add $10 million to the $110 million figure. So in 2017, the Browns have $110 million in cap space. The Browns could then sign players in that offseason, but as long as they only spend that rollover cap figure of $50 million, they aren't really losing any meaningful space. Yes, they could roll over the whole $110 million if they didn't spend a time, but they can add players while still growing their cap.
They signed players like J.C. Tretter, Kevin Zeitler, Jason McCourty, (sigh) Kenny Britt. Again, for the sake of simplicity, assume they only spend the $50 million of salary cap they rolled over into 2018, allowing them to maintain the original $50 million they started with in 2017 plus the $10 million in additional cap space. Now, getting ready for 2018, they roll over that $60 million.
Between the $60 million they had and the $60 million they rolled over, they find themselves with $120 million. Another year of the salary cap increasing $10 million and it's $130 million. The team has more cap space but increased the amount they are paying in salaries for free agents to improve the team.
Make a few trades, adding Jarvis Landry, Damarious Randall and a few free agents, adding $50 million worth of salaries. That would still leave $80 million of cap room and only $60 million of that is real cap. The rest is unused rollover space. Heading into 2019, that's $160 million in cap space plus the $10 million the cap increased, giving them a total of $170 million in cap space. The team has increased their salary base every single year and improved their talent pool, but they have also gained cap space.
It doesn't take long to amass a significant amount of salary cap space, allowing for teams to operate far above the actual salary cap, enabling to make a run. As an example, the Indianapolis Colts, who had been amassing cap space for a few years went from over $100 million in space last year to now being scheduled to spend $231.2 million in salary. With the additions of players like Philip Rivers and DeForest Buckner, the team now hopes they can get to the Super Bowl.
It's a little curious that the Las Vegas Raiders and Buffalo Bills are scheduled to pay out over $220 million each this season, but let's get nuts.
The Browns are paying out $201.6 million this year and have a significant amount of talent on their roster. They also have $38.6 million in cap space. While adding more talent isn't out of the question, the goal is to rollover a significant amount of that space into 2021. If they roll it all over, they'd have $77.2 million in space heading into 2021.
They also will have a number of free agents, who signed one-year deals, which will have them with more space. The salary cap may not go up and actually could go down this coming year, but the Browns would still be in a position to add premium talent to their roster as they potentially make a push for the Super Bowl in 2021 and 2022 even after they extend Myles Garrett's contract.
And there is the value of the Sashi years, as painful as those were. The teardown got that ball rolling and the build-up was done within the structure of that.
Plus we are in the top half of the league in spending. I'm not so sure I'd continue to spend, although if it helps us win the Super Bowl this year... I'm all for it.
winning the super bowl this year won’t be very significant..but I’d still take it.
I could be wrong but I don't think we will sign Chubb - just too much money for a RB.
jmho
I agree. I just didn't want to say that. I'd like to keep him, but they take a lot of wear and tear.
If you have the right system, and a decent O-line, backs are a dime a dozen. We cut Raheem Mostert who is now ripping it up for the 49ers.
You can always find a good back. Sure, every once in a while you have a Emmitt Smith or Bo Jackson, but finding guys who can gain 7 yards isn't all that hard. You don't need Herschel Walker back there.
I could be wrong but I don't think we will sign Chubb - just too much money for a RB.
jmho
At some point teams will be able to sign running backs to extensions for pretty cheap. Even Henry’s deal is pretty cheap compared to what a running back of his caliber used to get.
I still believe, despite what others have argued, that Chubb is a grounded, loyal person. You don't have to break the bank. Pay him fairly, and he will stay with his team.
I still believe, despite what others have argued, that Chubb is a grounded, loyal person. You don't have to break the bank. Pay him fairly, and he will stay with his team.
I think the term fairly is what the market determines it to be for a similar player at the position. Chubb and Henry went down to the wire for the #1 and #2 RB in the NFL last year. If this year turns out the same, fair is a contract that would be very similar to Henry's.
I think the term fairly is what the market determines it to be for a similar player at the position. Chubb and Henry went down to the wire for the #1 and #2 RB in the NFL last year. If this year turns out the same, fair is a contract that would be very similar to Henry's.
The market is determined by revenue. If we don't play this year, rates may actually drop. I think that is why we are seeing a flurry of extensions. It might not be as good in a year or two. All include some signing bonus that is paid in 24-48 hours, or whatever the standard might be.
If you may not get game checks this year, it is comforting to know you just had $millions deposited in to whatever type of account you are using as your primary.
Chubb isn't even a FA until 2022. If we could get him at 12 million by that point I would go for it.
i think a lot of the reason I’d favor signing him would be his attitude and how he represents the team. IMO that’s a big difference between he and, say, Leveon Bell
Yeah, I don't know the dude, but Chubb comes across as a great, great dude. He's quiet, humble, grounded, and polite. He is also a bad-ass on the football field.
I doubt that there is any fan that dislikes Chubb. What do you think? Do you think anyone dislikes him? I can't fathom a reason for not liking him.
Before the pandemic our summer vacation was taking 3.5 weeks and driving cross country to take the kids to Disney World. I had planned a stop in Chubb town as part of our trip. I would say Chubb, Bitonio, and Ogunjobi are my favorite players currently. Great players and great dudes. Hard not to root for.
I agree about the first two. I liked Schobert a lot, too. But, he's gone. I like Ward quite a bit. I know you probably won't agree w/this one, but I like Landry a lot.
You may have a point. But I think Chubb is under contract through the 2022 season. If that's the case and under your scenario, I would never sign a deal next year and wait until 2022. I'm sure both the agents and the players understand this.
You may have a point. But I think Chubb is under contract through the 2022 season. If that's the case and under your scenario, I would never sign a deal next year and wait until 2022. I'm sure both the agents and the players understand this.
Right, and to be honest, I don't think I would ever want to sign a back to an extension before their final season.
Too much risk, and you can always find a running back. I am not going to look through the teams, nor expect you to. Just in our division, the Bengals have Mixon, Ravens Mark Ingram, Steelers, James Connor.
One can bicker over who is better, but you can win with any of those guys. It's just not that hard to find a lead back. Being a good lead back is more about carries than having some super superior skill.
No doubt every now and then you get a Emmitt Smith, but for the most part most are about the same.
For the most part we agree. The only real difference I think we have here is I believe that as of now, Chubb is an elite back.
I mean we could make the same argument about every position on an NFL team. Teams win the SB without elite QB's. They win without elite WR's. They win SB's without great defenses and without great OL's. I mean that has happened and will happen again.
So we can minimize the idea of having elite players at every position if we try hard enough. I just feel the more elite talent you can accumulate at every position the better your odds of success are.
I mean where do you think the Titans would have ended up with "an average back" last season?
Part of what I'm saying is that although I would want Chubb to become a Brown for life. He would probably hit the FA market and we would only offer a conservative contract that might be Fair just not what he can get on the outside which he would then sign??? He's a good guy but I doubt he would turn down a lucrative offer made to him and sombebody will.
There are certain positions that we just won't brake the bank for, we showed that with Schobert as MLB is not a position to brake that bank. If we are talking best ever type then possibly we would in those positions that are a dime a dozen for good players. RB is one that we will not invest much in. Assuming we are going to sign a lot more big contracts.
Part of what I'm saying is that although I would want Chubb to become a Brown for life. He would probably hit the FA market and we would only offer a conservative contract that might be Fair just not what he can get on the outside which he would then sign??? He's a good guy but I doubt he would turn down a lucrative offer made to him and sombebody will.
There are certain positions that we just won't brake the bank for, we showed that with Schobert as MLB is not a position to brake that bank. If we are talking best ever type then possibly we would in those positions that are a dime a dozen for good players. RB is one that we will not invest much in. Assuming we are going to sign a lot more big contracts.
jmho
I agree. Second contracts for backs is risky. Spending big dollars on a position that is likely going to get hurt before the term of the contract is up is bad business.
Just draft a college kids every 4-5 years and go on the cheap.
In this past draft 1 RB was taken in the first round, Clyde Edwards-Helaire by the Chiefs with the 32nd pick. Three backs were taken in the 2nd round.
You are going to be able to draft a RB.
If we want to extend him, I wouldn't go over 2-3 years. Probably 2, and I would do it now, if possible.
I've been re-watching games from 2019 recently. I'm no Xs and Os guy...but...the play of Chubb and Landry last year was very good and very consistent...especially given the chaos that surrounded that team.
Here's what continues to stand out to me:
Chubb is a special back...I think every bit as special as was Emmitt Smith et al.
Landry showed excellent hands and regularly made plays.
OBJ was abysmal. The number of drops he had last year was maddening. I think/hope his play was a result of playing through that injury.
Chubb is a special back...I think every bit as special as was Emmitt Smith et al.
I think this might be something that we can all agree on 100%. Emmitt is a good comparison because one of the things I like so much about Chubb is his patience and ability to read the blockers in front of him. That coupled with his deceptive speed is a wonderful combination. As many have said, he's special on off the field and an individual of great character.
I feel like Nick is going to demand serious money in 2 years. The better play may be, get a hometown discount from Kareem. Running backs may be a dime a dozen, but Kareem has great hands out of the backfield, assuming he stays correct.
The #Cowboys are adding a big-time pass-rusher, signing former #Vikings DE Everson Griffen, sources tell me, @TomPelissero and @SlaterNFL. With Minnesota for a decade, Griffen now heads to Dallas. A surprise.
I feel like Nick is going to demand serious money in 2 years. The better play may be, get a hometown discount from Kareem. Running backs may be a dime a dozen, but Kareem has great hands out of the backfield, assuming he stays correct.
Vegas oddsmakers probably have us losing both.
I doubt we keep both. Too expensive. We will probably trade one. Get the best we can get. 3rd rounder up. At least I would think. See who teams want, go with the best offer and stick with the other guy.
In todays NFL you really only have room for one stud running back. You have one on a lead back contract, and then some complimentary guys on rookie contracts.
That doesn't mean the other guys aren't good. They just aren't in to that second contract. Second contracts cost money. Most teams don't have 2 backs in to a second contract unless you are talking a blocking back.
No way we keep both Chubb and Hunt on the team very long.
We just paid MG ... when Bake studs out we’ll need to pay him ... were gonna need to pay Ward ... it’ll be interesting to see if they’ll pay for a RB ...
They both may get “Shoberted” ... i think we wanted to keep him just not at that price ...
We just paid MG ... when Bake studs out we’ll need to pay him ... were gonna need to pay Ward ... it’ll be interesting to see if they’ll pay for a RB ...
They both may get “Shoberted” ... i think we wanted to keep him just not at that price ...
Probably so...you have to pick and choose. Trade the others for a pick. None of us like it, but it is what it is
We just paid MG ... when Bake studs out we’ll need to pay him ... were gonna need to pay Ward ... it’ll be interesting to see if they’ll pay for a RB ...
They both may get “Shoberted” ... i think we wanted to keep him just not at that price ...
Probably so...you have to pick and choose. Trade the others for a pick. None of us like it, but it is what it is
The Chiefs were capped out and signed Mahomes, Tyreek Hill, Chris Jones, and Travis Kelce to extensions. We should be able to sign all our guys easily. If we don’t someone failed.
Chubb fer me, thanks. He got screwed over last year IMO for the title. He could make this year special for himself. What might the NFL plan to do following this pandemic? I am thinking in terms of next year's roster, PS, and cap. It's just a business, but a different one going forward. Money still talks.
CINCINNATI — The Browns went after free agent defensive end Jadeveon Clowney this offseason, but the former No. 1 pick has yet to sign with a team.
Cleveland is likely out of the Clowney sweepstakes after restructuring Oliver Vernon's contract, but that doesn't mean Cincinnati won't have to deal with the three-time Pro Bowler this season.
Another one of the Bengals' AFC North rivals is considered the favorite to sign Clowney according to Tony Pauline of Pro Football Network.
“A lot of people in the league believe that in end, he’s going to end up with the Baltimore Ravens,” Pauline said on the NFL Draft Insiders podcast. “The Ravens need an upgrade with their pass rush. The belief from league insiders is don’t be surprised if he ends up with the Baltimore Ravens.
“Clowney, right now, the belief is he’s just going to sit out of training camp because he doesn’t like training camp. He had an issue with training camp when he was with Houston. He’s going to wait until the end of training camp unless someone blows him away with a huge contract.”
Clowney, 27, played for Seattle last season after spending the first five years of his career in Houston. The Ravens have nearly $17 million in cap space after releasing safety Earl Thomas on Sunday.
Adding Clowney would be exactly what the doctor ordered for Baltimore, who has one of the best rosters in the NFL. They traded for Calais Campbell this offseason in hopes of boosting their pass rush. Clowney could put them over the top.
The Bengals play the Ravens in Week 5 and Week 17 this season.
Clowney would be a luxury, but I’m hoping we can address the secondary and LB units in some way before the start of the season. Hoping we land a guy or two from other teams’ cuts.
The #Chiefs are finalizing new six-year contracts with coach Andy Reid and GM Brett Veach, tying both to the reigning Super Bowl champs through the 2025 season, per sources.
#Bucs are giving RB Leonard Fournette a 1-year deal worth a max value of $3.5M, source said. He gets a $2M base salary and incentives are based on rush yards & play-time. Plus, with no off-sets from his #Jaguars deal, Fournette can double dip if he wins his grievance & add $4.2M.
Does anyone think that Ha Ha is a better option for us at FS than Harrison of that other old white dude we signed?
Maybe. HaHa joined McCarthy when we signed Sandejo. So he wasn't available quite available to us. I think we always hoped to get ourselves a FS in round 2, so we didn't wanna invest much in the position. Unfortunately, Delpit got injured.
Harrison and HaHa are at different points in their career though. One is ascending, on the cheap for two seasons, another is a veteran on the downslope.
I'm sure Dallas tried to trade HaHa before cutting him. So there's that.
Mary Kay Cabot said we did try to get Logan Ryan, for awhile. Yet, we didn't show enough interest in HaHa (to trade for him), so there's that.
The #Raiders are releasing veteran S Damarious Randall, sources say. The team owes him a $1.5 million fully guaranteed base salary, though that’ll be reduced by whatever he gets from his new team.
The #Raiders are releasing veteran S Damarious Randall, sources say. The team owes him a $1.5 million fully guaranteed base salary, though that’ll be reduced by whatever he gets from his new team.
Not a great look for Randall. He lost his mind last year and now he can’t make the Raiders. His career is probably close to over. Weird because he was great for us in his first season with the team.
Its official now ... i read the other thread first so posted it in there also ...
DAMARIOUS RANDALL DB, UNSIGNED FREE AGENT
Raiders released S Damarious Randall.
Signed in April, Randall was guaranteed $1.5 million from the Raiders despite failing to make it through camp. A former first-rounder who totaled 61 tackles and a career-high 2.5 sacks in his final year with the Browns, Randall is still likely to sign elsewhere as a potential starter before the weekend comes to a close. The 28-year-old has 14 interceptions across five seasons.
SOURCE: Mike Garafolo on Twitter Sep 4, 2020, 11:17 AM ET
His natural position is actually FS. That's what he played in college. Due to team needs, he played corner in GB and was mediocre. When he came here, it was to play FS again, and he did very well. Raiders picked him up to play corner again, so....
I really liked Butler as a mid-round prospect. Wasn't he hurt all of last year?
Yeah he spent his entire rookie year on IR, hand injury if I recall...I remember his size and ball skills jumped out. And he's still on a cheap rookie contract with 3 years left, so I'm sure someone will jump on him. I know Arizona drafted him , Andy Isabella, and Keesean Johnson all last year...Added with Nuke Hopkins, Christian Kirk, and Fitz...he just got buried on that WR core.
Thanks. I really liked him when he was at Iowa State. I thought he would be a very good 4th--maybe 3rd-- WR. He wasn't polished enough to be a starter in my opinion, but I thought his size, high-point catching, ability to break tackles, and make big plays w/YAC would be a nice addition to a team that already had WRs who were good route runners and had good hands.
Thanks. I really liked him when he was at Iowa State. I thought he would be a very good 4th--maybe 3rd-- WR. He wasn't polished enough to be a starter in my opinion, but I thought his size, high-point catching, ability to break tackles, and make big plays w/YAC would be a nice addition to a team that already had WRs who were good route runners and had good hands.
I hope he doesn't go to the Steelers or Ravens.
Yeah I thought his ability with 50/50 balls would be out of this world with his frame...And agreed, Last thing I want is him going to an AFC North foe...Hoping the Pats or Packers (both of whom need some WRs) will grab him.
Thanks. I really liked him when he was at Iowa State. I thought he would be a very good 4th--maybe 3rd-- WR. He wasn't polished enough to be a starter in my opinion, but I thought his size, high-point catching, ability to break tackles, and make big plays w/YAC would be a nice addition to a team that already had WRs who were good route runners and had good hands.
I hope he doesn't go to the Steelers or Ravens.
Buddy I work with, his brother is an asst. coach at Iowa St, and he said Butler is a great kid too.
I've always thought you were one of the more football savvy posters on this board, tru. Once again, you didn't disappoint.
Always appreciate it bro...I have had many great discussions with you over the years, and likewise...You share a vast amount of knowledge and insight, and I always enjoy reading your posts as well.
Let me ask you a question. What do you think the main key and/or 3 main keys are for the Browns this season?
As odd as it may sound, in no specific order and off the top of my head.
I think its key that we finally field a healthy and rather strong rotation (most notably upfront on the Dline) For many years, it always seems apparent to me we over-use our own players....to the point they are washed out in games. I never have figured out why this was never assembled prior. Perhaps it was in the works, but I'm sure the changing of coaches and FO tears everything down. As you know I'm not just a Browns homer, and tend to watch other games just as much. I'll just pick the Eagles as an example...The past several years they are like 4 deep at DE and ditto for DT...They can rotate in and out so easy, and always seem to have guys fresh or fresher through the game...A reason why their front can bring pressure all by themselves. Heck there was many times last year I noted Myles Garrett sucking air in the 2nd quarter...Obviously you aren't nearly effective when your winded or worn down. Obviously it wasn't just him, but Sheldon/Ogi were the same at many points. I truly believe this was a lot of issues regarding literally no ability to rush the passer, or preserving block and or gap assignments...Talent and understanding plays a role as well.
I think on paper our LB core is god awful. They will have to at least play at a rate of good-very good for us to have success. I have little faith in this group, and hoping they prove me wrong. If we are to do anything this year, a lot hinges on this group proving themselves as NFL starters...And I don't mean the Cleveland Browns norm (starters, because that's all we have there to play...I want legit NFL starters)
Obviously I can't go on any further without the mention of our QB and how instrumental that he must play much better this year. No more running backwards to clear space to see, thus throwing himself right into where our OT's push their defenders right to...which always resulted into something horrible happening. I for one, always wandered why that continued nearly all year. Baker has to improve greatly for us to have any chance. He has to do a much better job reading the field, and taking what the defense gives him. Obviously we all want quicker more accurate throws. If he doesn't improve greatly from the disaster he was last year, then we are bound for troubled future(s).
I will throw something else out there...OBJ. When we traded for OBJ, I have never EVER seen this board so happy. Everyone was on cloud nine, and there was nothing but happiness here. I was really disappointed by him, heck I had Kareem Hunt as our 2nd best receiver on our team behind Jarvis. OBJ is finally healthy, he better be rather improved in all areas as well...
So I would say our Dline needs to stay fresh and rotated to keep the opposing running O limited...Hinges on that LB core playing beyond what I sadly expect.
On O, Baker has to take big strides this year with one of his weapons (OBJ) taking strides as well. Obviously there's more than that...But those are the main things I want to see rectified this year. I think we have a great running game, with a nice Oline in place. Was hoping to see Delpit in that young secondary...but I hope they will be ok back there, FS is a concern once again.
I’m surprised they couldnt get anything for Rosen. At the end of the day, he’s still a gifted passer and a top 10 type pick. I mean, I’d take him over Trubisky if I were the Bears
Rosen didn't look very good in his three starts last year, but I still expected much more of a test drive for a team that seemed to be tanking. He still has a higher ceiling than many QBs in this league.
I expect that he'll get another shot somewhere. I don't think he (mostly his situation) fits on a team trying to groom a rookie. There is nothing he's going to do (or may be willing to do) to help... and many young players who feel they haven't really been given a fair shake seem to be too condescending to that end.
I was a Darnold guy but Rosen was my second choice and Baker third.
Rosen threw a great ball. I thought for sure he would have a good NFL career. There were some things I did not like about him. But I sure didn't foresee he would bottom out like he has.
Makes you wonder why? What happened with him? He was always perceived as a bright guy. I have not followed him much since the draft. So I don't now what has been said about him. Must be clear inside the NFL that it just isn't there.
I read a quote from Flores just yesterday I think on Rosen. Said he had the best arm of the three QBs, but wasn't as good as processing information. It was brutally honest and I was surprised to read it.
Crazy what the NFL will do to a player. Before the draft Rosen was considered the least physically talented of the five first round QBs but the most mentally strong.
Crazy what the NFL will do to a player. Before the draft Rosen was considered the least physically talented of the five first round QBs but the most mentally strong.
I know.
I think this really speaks to the situation you are drafted into.
Arizona completely destroyed this kid from the start.
Keim surrounded him with worst OL in the league, one of the worst offensive coordinators (who was fired very early into the '18 season IIRC), and was put into an offensive system that wasn't what was advertised before the season.
Being out west, I never read anything about his attitude other than that he was a good locker room guy and didn't complain.
All this and the way the front office treated him with the Murray thing (imo) sealed his mindset going into Miami.
The guy has a strong accurate arm. Were there complaints about him? Leadership? Slow to process? Inability to move? Not accurate outside the pocket?
I am interested what went wrong with him?
Does poorly when things breakdown/he's under pressure. Kind of has a tendency to spazz out and chuck it. Lacks mobility to run away from people as well.
When it happens like it's drawn up, he's pretty good. Unfortunately, things don't always go as drawn up in football.
He looks good for most of this game, but there are a few illustrations of what I'm talking about here:
It must have been clear to those who saw him every day in Miami.
A first round pick is not easy to give up on. It is one thing to struggle some. But if you show improvement and there is a sense of "hey he will improve and is getting it" they may demote him to second string.
Miami is saying basically "we see no future for him."
I watched that video. I don't think he looked all that bad, considering.
His line and receivers started going to crap before he did. He looked great until his receivers started dropping balls and the rush started getting to him. He started looking really bad late in the game down 20, with those 2 questionable decisions on throws early. Other than that, there were quite a few easy throws.
I'm not saying it was a good game, but if that's an example of one of his worst games, considering what was going on in Miami, I don't think it's all that bad.
I think what one has to consider, and as was discussed on this very board is what Rosen is. He is a pocket passer type QB. He isn't mobile. The very definition of system QB. That system would be to have a very strong OL and setting him up with max protection.
Neither of the teams he played with has anything that resembles close to that type of a system. I can't say with certainty that's all of his problems because I haven't followed the situation that closely. But what I can say is when he went to both Arizona and Miami I knew they were not set up in a manner conducive to Rosen's success.
Jadeveon Clowney is expected to sign with the Tennessee Titans sources tell ESPN. He rejoins Mike Vrabel who was on the Texans defensive staff for Clowney’s first 3 years in the league in Houston. The Saints, the other main suitor, made a very strong case. This was a close one.
Not really sure. I don't buy the processing thing. That was a strength.
I do think he tried to force some throws and he threw some dumb picks as a result. I also didn't see him making many big plays. I agree w/the AZ that he was in a horrible situation w/the Cardinals. I really didn't watch him last year very much. But, Fitz played better than he did. I wonder if he has leadership issues. No proof, but it might make sense.
And, you do not need to persuade and convince everyone; just the one right person will do.
It does seem that there's more than enough lather around this individual's soap opera. I thought I read that he fired his agent, might have been yesterday? Sorry, dawgs; I have trouble reading the small print crawl on the fly anymore on TV. Just sign something already. No longer al that, bruh.
When Jadeveon Clowney told the Tennessee Titans on Saturday that he was signing with him, as @diannaESPN reported, he was given a one-year deal worth up to $15 million, per source. https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1302588449308934145
about it. Some your reactions are just in my eyes ridiculous. I think we have a system that is being put in where an AVERAGE QB like Garapollo (49ers) looks great. Its going to be all about the run...jmho With teams playing the run Baker should tear them apart.
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