DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mayfield Says He "Absolutely" Doubted Himself Last Year

It's really bad.

I came off another thread where a poster was saying guys aren't open. Time for people to start listening to the guys who know what they are talking about like Burns and Orlovsky.

I have thought that Baker was slow going through his progressions since day one, but man, he is now missing wide-open guys that are right in front of him. I think he does not trust what he is seeing.

He's going to lose the team if he already hasn't. These guys know what's going on. And blaming others for his issues probably doesn't sit well w/the players/coaches.

One other thing............take a look at how deep Baker's drops were in that Oflovsky clip. Damn, I don't know if I have ever seen such deep drops. That puts a lot of pressure on your tackles.

Baker is struggling for sure, and he needs to improve, but where has he blamed others?

Not trying to argue because maybe I missed it somewhere, I've just never seen him blame his struggles on his coaches or teammates.

As for Baker, he needs to just go with it. In 2018, he was confident and would test defenses. Now he is playing much more timid. If he gets back to ripping the ball to guys, he'll be fine. If he keeps playing more reserved, he's done.

I didn't mean that Baker was blaming others. I have never seen him do that.

I'm talking about the media and fans blaming others for his issues. Freddie was a target last year. So was the OL. So was OBJ. This year, folks are all over OBJ and saying things like the receivers can't get open. Today's players are all over social media and they read/hear about these things.

IDK ... it's possible I guess.

Jake Burns wrote a ton of glowing breakdowns on Baker in his rookie year .... I don't remember Vers ever commenting on them, certainly not to highlight how Jake Burns knew football and therefore Baker was a true stud.

I guess everyone gravitates to some extent to reporting and analysis that supports their take on things. That's a proven internet phenomena.

It doesn't really mater ... Baker played badly last year. He started this year off badly. If he doesn't improve significantly in the next few games it won't matter what any of us think or want or hope.... Last year there was a lot of moving parts. This year has barely begun. The truth about Baker will catch up with all of us eventually.... I am much more concerned than ever before though. I don't know that I can say I fervently believe he is going to be a very good NFL QB, I guess what i have is I am not willing to stop believing he might be a really good NFL QB. A lot has to align for it to happen and it starts Thursday night.

I have an agenda, mac. I don't think Baker reads coverages well. I have said that for years. I think you--and others--have an agenda, as well. I think you guys attack the messenger and other players/coaches to deflect blame away from Baker.

So, while I admit I have an agenda..........does that refute the videos and analysis from Burns? Does it refute the very obvious open receivers that Orlovsky pointed out? Does it refute that Baker is one of the lowest ranked passers? Does it refute that he has an almost equal amount of picks to TD since last year? Does it change the fact that his team isn't winning despite having a ton of talent?

We all have agendas, mac. Some use actual facts to support their agendas while others resort to attacking other posters to support their agenda.

I've been thinking a bit about Baker.

Some number of years ago, I was at Training Camp... back when DawgTalkers ruled. Amy Gretsinger had gotten us the VP passes. I had a fab time watching TC and all that went into it.

At the end of the day the team went to one field for 11-11. I was just past the end zone with by back to the Berea buildings. The Offense was coning my way and the defenses backs were to me. The whistle blew and both lines bent over and assumed their stances. The QB was Jeff Garcia who was over center and facing my way.

Garcia started yelling the cadence and says HUT HUT HIKE. As soon as he says HUT HUT HIKE the offense stands up, the defense stands up, and I no longer see Garcia. He's a short guy. It occurs to me that if I can't see Garcia he sure as sheep can't see me.

When everyone stands up Mayfield can't see me either. That means he needs some way to see me.. he needs to move.

The next time we are drafting a QB we need to make sure this guy can see me. We need to make sure the next guy ticks off ALL the criteria. We need someone that is the size of a Josh Allen and athletic.

In the mean time, hopefully we can figure out how to make Baker work out.

Platform shoes and a brain maybe

I think there is something to this, Saint. I know there were posters who were making fun of the height thing in 2018, but there were legit reasons why so many taller qbs were drafted over the years. Hell, I got moved from QB to RB in high school because I was deemed too short to play the position, even though I had a stronger arm, was way more accurate, could run far better, was tougher, and smarter than the tall dude.

I think there are some shorter qbs who are doing pretty good. So, it's not impossible.

Drew Brees is the first guy who comes to mind. However, he makes post-snap reads as well as anyone ever. He is a master of pre-snap reads. He throws w/great anticipation. He knows tendencies. He is extremely cerebral. He finds passing lanes to overcome his short stature. We've all seen him throwing on his toes. It's freaking crazy that he can do that. LOL

R. Wilson is extremely mobile. He escapes pressure w/his pocket presence and feet. He is also good at reading coverages. He is also clutch. Big time clutch. He makes plays out of nothing, time and time again.

Kyler Murray is really short. This guy is my surprise guy of the year. I think he is going to have a huge year. He still makes dumb decisions, but he is a playmaker. I saw something the other day, but he ran the ball around 11 times and only got hit twice. I probably have the exact numbers off, but the point is that he rarely gets hit. He runs out of bounds, slides, or scores before he is hit. His ability to escape pressure also allows him to make more throws outside of the typical 2.5 second window.

I don't think Baker will ever be confused w/Wilson or Murray as athletes. Thus, he would have to be more like Drew Brees. The problem is that he isn't reading coverages, throwing w/anticipation, and finding passing lanes like Brees.

He's going to have to find a niche or his days will be limited.

On the plus side, I do think he has a plus arm. Much better than Brees. I think he can be accurate when he trusts what he sees. I like his moxie and confidence.

It's crazy that you mentioned Garcia, because when Baker was in college, Garcia was the guy I said Baker could be if things turned out right. I never saw him as a Brees. Being Garcia would be more than good enough. I hope he gets there.

The more I think about it, I would consider benching Baker. Not as a punishment but as a wake up call. I'm not sure continuing to start and continuing to lose confidence will be something he can recover from. Let him watch Keenum play the position. Baker has never had anyone on his team that he can watch play quarterback. Think about that. He's had no example to follow.

I wouldn't bench him, Rish. I don't want to ruin his confidence.

I do wish that he would miss a game [not due to injury] just so we could see what the team would look like w/out him. If they look as bad as they have w/Baker, then maybe we need to make other changes. But, if the stars start to shine and the offense looks more cohesive, even w/a below average Case Keenum, then maybe it's time to start rethinking the qb position.

Dude. Not even a week ago you were talking about how people need to be patient, how Baker deserves another year after this one regardless of what happens.

Now we should bench him??

Can. not. make this stuff up lmao.

I was looking forward to "Dawgtalkers" once some football started so I could quit reading Trump, trump, trump, trump, trump... Pffft. It may have been better before lol.

I understand your frustration. I feel the same way when people say stuff about OBJ.

Hopefully, they both have huge games on Thursday.

I'm not saying permanently bench him. You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. Give him a chance to watch. His QB room has been Tyrod Taylor and a bunch of nobodies. I think he could at least learn something from Keenum. Taking a step back is not the worst thing in the world.

And I still believe what I said. Ride it out with Baker this year and next. Unless you are in a position to draft Lawrence. After this past Sunday, we might just be. Baker's issues had zero to do with playing the Ravens.

I am going to take grief for this, but I think this year is the year Baker proves himself one way or the other.

Just watching every single QB that beat us. He has to see how differently he plays than "smooth" QB's do. Jarring to watch. I might consider Keenum if BM looks thatcrappy Thursday.
A game plan that we stick with is a help;

I absolutely don't trust BM yet. And this messaging about forget that shambles of a game and soldier on sucks eggs. Don't ignore it; don't gloss it over and easily forget it, or "flush it" like OBJ says. These are snappy quotes, nice that they come so easily by two of the lousiest performances Sunday. Dwell on the wrong. If not, how do you learn from the mistakes? Succeed. Show us better than "we really practiced well" and "Look at the new unis!"

The placekicker did more to make players around him look better than OBJ and BM did.
Pound the Bengals.

Do you think he's so used to taking the deep drops to artificially give himself more time, more pocket as a PTSD from last year? Now there's no reason to do that.

My guess that his deep drops are tied to his lack of height. That would allow him a better opportunity to see over taller d-linemen.

The problem is that it two-fold in that it takes more time before the release and also OT's are taught to "guide" Edge rushers deep and outside the pocket.

If last year wasn't the wakeup call he needed, I HIGHLY doubt a benching will get the job done.

I do understand. It's just mind-blowing how this contrasts with your previous comments after one game against arguably the best team in the league... with no real practice time... with no preseason... with a new staff and playbook.

Listen, I get it - it's frustrating - and I'm as concerned as the next guy, but talk about over-reaction lol. Can we at least give it another week? We'll see tomorrow if "Baker's issues had zero to do with playing the Ravens."

I wouldn't give you grief over this one at all. But then again I don't have any idea as to who your comments pertain to. Year three is normally where players begin to blossom and show the greatest improvement. But there's been nothing normal about the situation Baker has had to face. Being on your fourth HC at the beginning of your third season is not anything close to normal.

So on a personal level, I would like to see him get another year after this one. But there has to be some limitations or caveat attached to that. It can't be a "no matter what" situation.

The one thing I'm sure we can both agree on is that we as fans have no say in the situation. The decision will certainly not rely on what we think or feel. So I think the fan base must take an objective look at the facts of the situation. And this is one thing I KNOW we agree on! If the season goes belly up, there will be a sacrificial lamb. At least one. We've seen this movie too many times before.

As an owner, Haslam will have to find a reason to assign blame. That's how he will sell the 2021 season to fans who have yet once again have been disappointed the year before. "It's a marketing world."

This FO and coaching staff are not married to Baker. With possibly the exception of DePodesta. They didn't draft him. He was not their choice or their pick. With the mass amount of coaching changes and FO changes, that ship has sailed in regards to making them the scapegoat. And with a second bad season in 2021, they would also be on the chopping block. So does anyone really think they will risk losing their careers by sticking with Baker if they don't believe he's the QB they can win with?

Then to complete the trifecta, we have the media. As we can see, they are already beginning to focus the attention on Baker. Fair or not, this is his third season and the microscope is on him.

This combination creates the perfect storm for Baker's exit in the event things don't get better. Before people go crazy about this post, this isn't something that expresses my wishes or desires. It's me stepping outside the fan box and looking at how things are done and seeing things from the perspective of ownership, the FO and the coaching staff.

In life we see that people will resort to desperate measures in desperate times. And if they stink up the city of Cleveland this season, something will have to give. Trying to look at this from an objective perspective, I see that something may very well be Baker.

It's mind blowing? LOL.

I was thinking of ways to fix Baker. You concentrated on the bench part and not the reason why. It occurred to me that he's never had a teammate he could watch and learn from. Is that such an alien concept?

In my mind I was only thinking about a few games. I have no interest in seeing Keenum quarterback this team, but if there could be some long-term benefits to Baker I'm all for it.

This sounds all very mind blowing, I know.

As for your other point, I have not changed my stance on Baker but I'm going to gripe and moan about his play and Stefanski's coaching until they give us something to be happy about. You give both another year unless you are staring at Trevor Lawrence, in which case you move on from Baker. That will also mean the wheels have fallen completely off and he's shown no improvement at all because we are picking number one.

I don't believe it's some mind blowing concept. It's just an idea that could prove to work in either direction. I lean on the side that it would only act to further erode his confidence. I don't believe it's impossible to consider the fact that it could help.

On my part I don't feel it would work that way. However, the season may get to the point where they see it as one of the only hopes they have left to try. We'll just have to wait and see.

Mind blowing may be a bit extreme. My rant was a product of more than what just you have said, so my apologies for sounding like an arse.

If I were to read what you just wrote above, five weeks from now... Browns at 2-4, Baker looking lost, I may agree.

It is waaay to early for that talk. There is no way the benefit would outweigh the harm right now... not just to Baker - to the entire team. We've got to let this new offense, these new coaches, this new season, breathe a little... before we move to any drastic measures.

Would there be benefits? I'm not so sure. If Keenum looks good, Baker may learn something, but what would he learn that coaches couldn't teach him by watching tape? That he sucks? If Keenum looks anywhere from average to crap: we have yet another QB controversy, another broken locker room, etc, etc...

Wouldn't it make much more sense to give this dude a fair shake? Like an eight game minimum fair shake before you add all these new layers of "Cleveland being Cleveland" crap to the recipe?

I don't disagree with what you said, but I have a slightly different take on it. It really sucks that he has had multiple coaches, GMs, and systems to contend with. I think he's been dealt a crappy hand in that regard. But I don't feel his issues have anything to do with that. His issues are much more cerebral, much more foundational. If you are confused every time you drop back once your first read is gone, I don't think the system matters.

I would expect to see the effect of multiple systems and coaches to play out in a much different fashion. Like being competitive every game but a handful of plays a game that misfire. Being slightly off on timing with receivers but making the correct read. Coming up short on a game winning drive because the timing is off but still being in a position to attempt a game winning drive.

That's not what we are seeing. We are seeing foundational breakdowns that are needed to play the position regardless of who is coaching you or what system they are running.

Could his head be spinning and that's just got him wound up? Sure, but that's why I thought a step back might help.

Nothing will make me happier if he comes out tomorrow, throws 3 TDs, and looks awesome in the process. I'm not anti-Baker. I'm anti-sucking.

j/c:

I would like to say that I have been impressed w/Baker's statements to the media this year. He isn't trashing anyone. He's saying the right things. Being respectful. I like that he learned from his mistakes. I also like that he is in much better shape this year. Hopefully, his game will improve, too. It was just one game in a new season w/a new coaching staff.

I see I've made your sig line. That part is impressive enough lol. Quick questions for anyone that can answer... Preface - I'm not some x's and o's guru like many here.

Wouldn't it take a QB a little while to work past his "first read" in a new offense?

In other words, running a new scheme, with new plays, I would think there would be a bit of a learning curve before you look comfortable. A first read is just that for a reason (right?). In a perfect world of well designed plays, crisp execution, and great play-calling a QB would never really have to look further. IF you truly could wipe the slate clean from 2019, would we be having this conversation right now? After one game?

If the answer is no, I think it's only fair to let this entire team play a few games before we even begin to pass judgement.

Let me back up and say - this is not to make excuses, Vers and others have voiced these concerns since the beginning, with good reason. Baker's weak spots have been made evident, if not exploited, and we all need to see constant progress. But making judgments after one game (in a new system), against elite talent, just don't make much sense to me.

This is a good question. I'm willing to discuss, as long as most of you will not allow the guys that resort to personal attacks come in and take over the conversation? I just came off the General Election thread and dayum.

So, if most of you will agree to stick to the topic and not allow this turn into another character attack thing, I'm all for trying to discuss it. I say this because it's a really good question and it could spark conversation that would allow people to learn. I just don't want to waste my time w/those who come running in screaming "agenda."

You know I'll play.

I'm curious to see how the route trees compare to the previous offenses that Baker has experienced. Are the routes contingent upon certain defensive looks? How long do some of the routes take to develop in Stefanski's offense vs the others?

These are all questions I have on this topic.

I couldn't resist.

Well, I'll just say what I think, because I am "wet behind the ears". For the sake of discussion, I'll act like I know what I'm talking about, go ahead and call me a loon if need be.

First, it seems like there would be a lot more to "going through progressions" than what we think as fans. And then, besides the mechanics of it, there's the necessary trust with your personnel.

There are pre-snap reads which would have a very direct influence on the post snap reads... That is to say, a pre-snap read may influence the likelihood of what will happen after the snap without being a dead giveaway.

There's an immediate reaction necessary if a QB has misdiagnosed the pre-snap read.

There are windows of many different types (time-wise and size-wise) depending on your personnel, the defense's personnel, and the scheme they're running.

Then there's the fact that, in many cases, these routes are adjusted, changed, etc, on the fly, depending on what the receivers see. (Wow, seems like it would take a while to get everyone on the same page!)

In a new offense - there are new plays, new terminology and a learning curve that goes beyond the QB himself.

Am I missing anything?

How would this be easy and why does it seem so much easier for some than others? Are they just smarter? Are the offenses designed better? A little of both?

I'll shut up now lol.

No bro, those are all good points and you even brought up some that I wasn't thinking about. I think that was an excellent post.

I'm just saying that if I invest the time in order to properly try and address your question, I don't want the rest of the board to allow certain posters to derail the discussion w/their personal attacks. I think we all know who those posters are.

I say this because your question is a great one and it got me to debating w/myself. That is what great questions do. Thus, it will take some time and thought to adequately discuss this. I will gladly embark on that and I do not have all the answers, but I don't want to have this conversation derailed by guys who continually think making things personal is a way to win debates.

Tell me if you guys want to stifle the personal attack narrative and just talk football. Or not.

If anybody tries to derail the convo, I'll punch them square in the face.

LOL................okay bro. I will wait until tomorrow to reply to your question. It's a really good one that I think has complex answers and I am not even sure if I am right in what I'm thinking. I worked more than I should have today and I'm really tired. Got a bit of a buzz on too, mainly because I am so exhausted.

I will try and answer your question. It might take some back and forth among multiple posters to get there. But, it really was a good question. You got me thinking, that is for sure.

Interesting perspective.

Totally different NFL.