BEREA, Ohio -- Everybody knows this is a big season for Cleveland Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield.

Despite not having a normal off-season, those who follow the Browns know the offense--for the most part-- will only go as Mayfield goes.

Mayfield and his teammates are taking to the field to actually start practicing football on Friday.

Mayfield said not only is he in much better physical shape, he is in in "a much better mental state" than a year ago.

“In a much better state mentally," Mayfield said on a Zoom call on Friday before practice. "Obviously, physically, I put in the work, like you said. Just ready to roll, attack and get back to where I need to be to be the leader for this team and for this franchise. The reason I got here is because I have been myself and have been able to attack each day with 100 percent effort. Being able to do that and just have the open communication with Coach Kevin Stefanski, (offensive coordinator) Alex Van Pelt and the rest of the staff, we know what we are attacking each and every day. It feels a lot better, and we are taking it one day at a time, as we should.”

As a rookie, he was the NFL runner up for Rookie of the Year to Saquon Barkley, when he surpassed the touchdown totals of Peyton Manning and Russell Wilson in their rookie seasons with 27 touchdowns and a 93.7 rating. He slumped in 2019 to 22 touchdowns and 21 interceptions with a 78.8 rating.

Mayfield was asked if he doubted himself during the roller coaster of the last two years.

“Absolutely. I think that that is one of those things that I talked about with our team is you have to find that belief and you have to find that confidence within yourself," he said. "That is what I have based my whole story on and my whole career on is confidence in myself and taking those chances. There were times, and these guys know that everybody has their moments. You can’t just hold onto yourself. You have to have people to lean on, and we have those guys here.”

Mayfield explained a little bit more on what he meant.

“I wouldn’t say it is a ‘poor me’ type situation," Mayfield said. "Going and having success all through high school and college and having that standard so high and then the past couple years have been a rollercoaster of emotions and not nearly as much success as I am used to. I would say I lost myself not having that success, not finding out what was working. I tried different ways of trying to have that success, and I didn’t find it.

"I lost myself in that, and I wasn’t able to be who I am for these guys on the team," he said. "I have told them that, and I told them that if I am not doing that, hold me accountable. Just finding that and getting back to the basics, establish myself in this new system and attack it."

Jarvis Landry said he's seen a renewed, reinvigorated quarterback.

"He's the leader of our team, will continue to be the leader of our team," Landry said on a Zoom call. "His attitude toward this season is at a heightened level."

Landry hooked up with Mayfield for a deep sideline pass for a touchdown that went for about 60 yards.

Mayfield said he dropped some of the "bad weight" that he was carrying and Andrew Berry said that Mayfield had added four pounds of lean mass. Mayfield admitted he played last season the heaviest of his career.

Mayfield is excited to get on the field and see how the team comes together.

“Absolutely, I think it is an unbelievable opportunity for everybody in this building," he said. "With the moves that we have made, the pieces we brought in and the culture that is being built right now, I think we are really excited to get out there and show that of what we have been building behind the scenes. I am extremely excited about that.

"The doubt and all that, I expect it considering what has been going on with going from Year 1 with having some success to last year of what we thought was going to be and it wasn’t," he said. "It is what it is. It is nothing new to me, and our guys are ready to get out there and prove what we have been doing this offseason because that is all that matters is this year. We have a new team, a new staff and we are ready to roll.”

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-brow...-Now-150278531/

The only way to improve is to recognize the problem, address the problem and move forward. I see this as a very positive sign.

Yeah, Baker is the primary focus .. this is a very important year for him. Obviously the pandemic and another new system is not ideal, BUT he does need to put forth a better performance than last season. He’s a #1 overall pick entering year 3 with GREAT weapons, an improved OL, and a system that will be tailored to him

Blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah.

One would certainly hope that a first time HC would tailor his system around the talent he has to work with. But being as how Stefanski is a first time HC who has worked under other coaches, I'm not sure we actually know what "his system" is. From the limited information and interviews I have on Stefanski, let's say I'm optimistic about the possibilities.

But I feel the need to wait until I've actually seen the evidence on the field to go any further than that.

I can understand how some are not anxious about getting on the "island."

Last year most of us bought into the hype. So many will apply the "fool me once shame on you; fool me twice shame on me."

Actually I am optimistic. Baker has the talent to be a good NFL quarterback. Humble pie is good pie for many. And in his case. I think he needed it.

Now from this article and other sources. He seems like he has his head right. When that is more properly aligned then you do everything possible to be ready. The body work takes discipline but is not hard when your head is in the right place.

I truly believe Baker will be ready.

Again the big obstacle as I see it is 2020. Teams with new staffs putting in new schemes. They will be behind the 8 ball.

You can not play the reps needed. The practice time and all the OTA's lost can not be gained back.

You can not minimize that. It is a fact.

Execution will suffer.

I am not sure how KS will adjust. Maybe they start with a smaller number of plays and add as the season progresses?
Do what you know well. Instead of trying to do a lot and end up doing it all poorly.

My take is Baker will be fine. The team?

Yeah, we wont know until we see it. If his comments ring true about the Texans of 09 and Shanahan, that’s a hint at least

Let’s go Bake!!!

#Browns left guard Joel Bitonio said Baker Mayfield has told teammates he didn't do enough to help team win last year and he felt bad about it, he really took necessary steps this offseason, he understands he sets the standard as the quarterback of the team

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich

Good, keep that mindset

Getting rid of Freddie was the 1st step in getting BM better

That seems to be a popular theme around here but obviously Baker takes the responsibility. Maybe if the posters around here held him as accountable as he seems to be they wouldn't be trying to shift the blame. I'm pretty sure Freddie didn't tell him to show up to camp out of shape last year.

As a whole Freddie certainly didn't do him any favors. But it seems like Baker is stepping up and taking responsibility for his part in all of that. It's a shame some fans won't even take his word for it.

You guys think this is some flag football league??? Question is why didn't Freddie have an off season conditioning program set up for Baker. Guys don't just get out of condition, granted Baker has to take some accountability. But the more I look at last season the more I see a total lack of leadership by Kitchen's. I see a HC that was more interested in getting his playbook in rather than having the team succeed and execute. Laize Faire does not work with Football.
jmho

I agree with you. Kitchens came into 2019 and was plain lazy in his approach.
He didnt have the tennis balls to stand up to BM and OBJ. Oh yeah he tried to act like a disciplinarian with Higgins and Njoku come off like he was a real whip cracker

Freddie saw BM break Mannings record thus he went
Into the off season and let BM do anything he wanted. BM comes in not committed out of shape
Kitchens did nothing about it.

Freddie was more intrested in being a buddy buddy to the marquee guys.
He created a country club atmosphere.And it showed vs the Titans.
The Browns were not prepared on Sundays cause Kitchens was not prepared

He was a worse coach than Jackson
I've seen a lot of bad NFL HCS in my life.
Rich Kotite...Monte Clarke...Steve Spurrier..Homer Rice .....
Kitchens is the worst

So Baker is lying? Alrighty then.

Even when it comes from the horses mouth you try and deflect.

Your right ... there was 100% a lack of leadership from my boy last year .... 100%, no doubt about it ...

So thats an excuse for Bake to show up looking like he pounded brews on the beach all off season? ... who else came back with an entirely different bad body shape? ...

Blaming Freddie for Bake’s conditioning is a JOKE BRO and u know it ... did Bake forget that hard work and a major commitment is what lead to his success in hs,college and his rookie season ...

Bake’s rookie year clearly went to his head and his ego took over ... he GOT LAZY and thats on him not Freddie ...

Ang I guarantee U even if we didn’t hire a HC this off season Bake would have put the work in cause he embarrassed himself last year ... and thats not a shot at Kev as I’m sure he played a role but Bake had plenty of self motivation after last years debacle ...

I’m expecting huge things from Bake this year and it looks like he put the work in to make that a distinct possibility ...

The kids not perfect tab ... he messed up last off season and it showed during the season ... he corrected it this off season ... and thats all that matters at this point .. good on him ....

Freddie has to shoulder his share of the blame BUT NOT ALL OF IT ... PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY plays a big part also and that’s 100% on Bake ...

LETS GOOOOOOOO

And Ryan Lindley.

That picture on the boat last winter was probably the best thing that happened to 6...

Am I the only one who thinks Baker’s body type has nothing to do with his success?

I guess that would depend on if one is looking at it as a singular issue or a sign of ones overall dedication to his craft.

When you have played football your entire life, you know how important being in shape is. So to an extent, coming in out of shape does say a lot about where your head is at in terms of your dedication to your craft.

Even Mayfield called it "bad weight". So even he realized it was an issue at least to some degree.

Well put. I'm one that absolutely subscribes to the theory that subtracting Freddie from the team is the first step to getting Baker back on track... but I thought a lot more of Baker's drive to believe he would let himself go after a little bit of success. Honestly, I thought he would be one of the last people that would allow that to happen.

And that's the odd part of it. With Freddie as his OC he was playing great and the team was productive. That would lead one to believe that he would have had extra reasoning for coming back in top shape.

So while Freddie certainly did him no favors, Bakers issues started before any of that.

Baker has made it clear that a lot of these issues were his own. That he was the one who needed to address them and make them better. I'm glad he saw this and is taking the needed steps to improve.

I'm not going to claim he's a liar and use something else as an excuse for the very things he himself has taken ownership of.

It takes a lot to man up, accept responsibility and move forward for someone in the public eye. I commend him for that.

Body shape/type or physical condition?

The better condition people are in the better they feel and perform. The better they feel and perform the more confident they are. The more confident they are the better they play. I guess I can keep going.

I mean if your point is that maybe Baker just sucks so none of that will matter, but I wouldn't be in the camp that Baker sucks.

So yes, I think his condition matters.

Sometimes in football. The coach and QB mirror each other in certain aspects. A QB can be a mere extension of the coach.
Case in point.
Baker felt like he could just show up and light up the scoreboard
Freddie felt like he could just show up and
Call plays and orchestrate points.
Freddie was fat
Baker got fat.
Baker had a lack of work ethic
Freddie thought he had it all figured out.

Look at history the great QB HC tandems

Fouts Coreyell.
Brady Belichek
Graham Brown
Esiason Wyche
Mahomes Reid
Brees Peyton
Stabler Madden

A complete of mindset drive desire to win
Etc

Oh dear Lord. lmao

In that case Mahomes should have come in weighing 300#.



You just refuse to take Bakers word for it don't you? So is Baker lying?

When I coached baseball the son of a guy I coached went to what was called "speed camp."

The boy inherited his dad's shape. He was very thick from waste down. Large thighs, big butt and slow like molasses in January. I mean you could use a sun dial timing him from home to first. Other than that he was a good player. He played a good third base and could hit.

My take was "speed camp" could not help this kid. He came back to spring practice after 3 months of the camp during the winter.

I was shocked. He would never become fast. But his improvement was dramatic.

Specialized training and diet can do wonders. You can increase short area quickness. You can get lighter on your feet.

Baker had issues last year. Not all was related to conditioning. We have discussed it to death. One of things that Van Pelt wanted to do was work on footwork. That is not just what foot is back.

Baker to his credit admitted he needed to improve. He hired a dietitian and worked on becoming quicker. Quicker as in faster feet and set up. Body position and being more on balance.

So I do believe body conditioning and specialized training can help. Details. Pay attention to the smallest of details. Preparation pays off.

He looks better and he seems to be in a good place mentally.

Will it make a difference? I believe so in how he plays. However, I can not say for the entire team.

j/c:

Glad he is in shape. Now, I hope he has worked on his footwork and can suddenly know how to read coverages.

Hey Vers, I don’t know if any improvement will be made on his coverage reading, but I’ve checked out his footwork a little bit during the plays. I haven’t seen a ton, but from what I’ve noticed, his initial drop-back with his new initial stance does appear to make his release and timing more “efficient” so to speak. Where I get concerned is his follow-through with his weight distribution. He still throws too much off his back foot and his passes are still going high. I don’t know where he developed this, but I assume it was last year because I don’t recall sailed passes being a problem in ‘18. Hope he tunes that up because that’s a big INT liability.

Thanks for the info, 05. Did you happen to notice his lead [left] foot while you were watching. Is it pointed toward the intended target or is he opening up too much? Do you know what I mean by "opening up?" That's stepping too far out to the left of the target. He did that in both years and it was one of the things I said I hoped he worked on after his rookie season. It's a big reason I wanted him to work w/a qb coach. Anyway.........opening up too much affects the arm angle and subsequently, the release point. It's the single biggest reason for high throws in any sport.

Is he in shape?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGdUl_pkWYQ

I think he has a lot to go still, specially compared to how fit he was when he was a rookie.

But most alarming is Kase Keenum, he looks like a sea lion

Tom Brady camp comparison video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EPG0KQO-T8

Are you questioning shape from that video?

When compared to the rookies and his rookie season, yes I am.

I already questioned the way he looked last season. He does not look specially fit to me...better than last year though

Glad you are back. Hope all is well going forward.

Greg Cosell wrote a piece on Mayfield after looking at all his tape and breaking it down. I think it can be pulled up but the Plain Dealer now requires payment. There is a audio with Mary K. but I am not sure it covers what the article did.

In the article Cosell who is a guy that does in depth reviews stated that: in looking at his tape it is not like there is much question about throwing to the wrong guy. He throws to the right guy.

More about inconsistent footwork.

You consistently state he can't read coverages. But I don't see any links or proof. Have you read that? Or, do you have examples where he makes the wrong read on a regular basis?

lol using Brady as a benchmark..lol, he's built like a 7th grade power forward. If you actually watch anything from Baker this year, he's in 10x better shape. Whether that transfers on the field remains to be seen, but his footwork def looks cleaner so far in camp

You the scarecrow in the wizard of Oz...

What's your problem...
1. I said Baker has to take accountability.
2. Baker actually did must I repeat the obvious to you, I apologize cause I thought you had some intelligence, my BAD!

So where do you get off saying "Baker is lying" in response to what I said. And where do I DEFLECT when I said he must and Baker DID take accountability.

Nah...you would rather put your head in the sand and continue your bashing of Baker. And if anyone doesn't cow tow to your opinion you must insult them.

Learn some football and then get back to me. smh

Baker looks slimmer than his rookie year to me.

That’s great question. I can’t tell from the angles I’ve seen. Has anyone else been able to observe?

No. I can not tell.

I would need to see a decent size sample.

This sounds confrontational. It's all over the place. And I think you are misunderstanding what reading coverages means. Believe what you will. I don't care.

Btw..........you should read this. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2938...eport-browns-qb

I think Baker is a BUST.

I thought we finally found the One in 2018. I was on the Baker train.

BUT

Baker got fat on bad teams and garbage time production in 2018.

Decent NFL defenses figured him out last year as a 1 read QB.

He is short, slow and not that intelligent.

And now he plans to knee the flag.

The future is Case Keenum...

How on earth is it confrontational?

A football discussion. I asked a question?

Like I stated Cosell broke his film down at length. He was asked about reading coverages? He responded. He stated I didn't see him throwing to the wrong guy.

I had to speed read it because of an errand. Maybe I missed it. I read alot of what all went wrong. Didn't see if he said mayfield consistently could not read the coverage. I said early on he was bailing to quick and rolling right.

I want to see if he has had problems reading where to throw the ball?

If you want to talk football get back to me. If all you have is personal insults like usual, and now, go back to seventh grade.

I don't have time for your stupidity.

That's deflection Tab. That's taking the very things that Baker took the4 blame for and trying to shift that blame onto someone else.

That's indicating it was more Freddie's fault than Baker's. That's saying that what Baker said is not truthful when he took the blame himself. Baker blamed only himself. It appears you find that to be false.

You may know some football, but you sure have a hard time with English.

Amen to the last line (not referring to u tabber) ...

And then u follow that post up immediately with a reply to tabber ... ...

j/c...from the article:

"...just have the open communication with Coach Kevin Stefanski, (offensive coordinator) Alex Van Pelt and the rest of the staff, we know what we are attacking each and every day. It feels a lot better, and we are taking it one day at a time, as we should.”

I'm surprised this comment hasn't yet been commented-upon. The insinuation that this is something "new" certainly confirms the notion(s) as to why the offense was so dis-jointed last year.

Freddie went from supposedly being the "open communication" type to whatever-he-was-last-year...and Baker's teacher went from Zampese to Lindley. I think the Zampese-to-Lindley factor was a much bigger deal than has been publicly let on. JMO and from reading way to much about the Browns.

I don't man. They stuff like this every year with every new staff. None of that really matters.

Just win.

Yeah, somebody had to "explain to him" what deflection was. It seems you didn't get the memo.

Now you can resort to the only two things you've managed to come up with in 20 years. 0+0=0 and MenZa.

I love that he's owning a lot of this, but man Freddie Kitchens was HORRIBLE.

He certainly was. But seeing Baker own up to his part in it I consider to be a great sign of maturity and taking personal responsibility. That's all positive.

j/c:

Oh totally in agreement there. I love his maturity. I really think he can bounce back this year. I just hope this coach knows what he's doing, he certainly checks all the boxes aside from any HC experience, and this is as talented of a browns team as we have seen in a while, especially with the improvements on the OL.

I think there are a few things here that have led to this label - [1] His height. [2] Not being asked to do too much his rookie year [3] Playing badly last year.

We've seen him look off receivers sometimes. We've seen him go through some progressions sometimes. But we've also see him key on receivers. We've seen him not spot open receivers. We've seen him scramble from clean pockets ...

My personal opinion is we don't actually know at this point. I think there is as much evidence one way as another. Rookie season breakdowns by Brian Baldinger highlighted a lot of good things ... we've all seen some of the bad. I think year 3 we're going to see early season struggles because of the lack of pre-season and impact of CV-19 ... but I think by mid-season we'll get to see what Baker's true ceiling might be. I don't ever expect him to be Peyton or Brady - but he seems to have a very natural feel for the position and game ... it's why I think he has the ability (that we witnessed rookie season) to consistently throw receivers open which is a pretty rare talent.

Can't wait to see his maturation.

You just described every single quarterback in the NFL.

I've seen Brady spend an entire game going only looking at his first read. Most of that is probably due to him knowing who is going to be open before the snap.

But the main point is you can't do those things to the detriment of winning.

Baker just needs to win.

Time will tell.

Really that is all that can be said. First year he set a record. Next year he didn't play very well.

I doubt that Buffalo or the the Jets are ready to throw away their guys. Lamar went to the best team. The Ravens built their offense around him. They were patient and the Ravens have had continuity. All good things for a young quarterback.

We shall find out over the course of this season if Baker will improve. It is to bad that this is the year of Covid .

But I expect Baker and the team to improve as the season rolls along. Hopefully the virus does not hit the team.

Next year being Stefanski's second year along with his staff should be the year that real team direction should be made clear. They should have a good feel for Baker's future with the team after the 2021 season.

when you look around at other quarterbacks like Goff, Carr, and others these quarterbacks are not easy to figure out. Lot of factors involved. Baker is no different.

I mean Mariota, Winston, Newton, and even Luck. At times they were considered franchise guys. And it is not like they were complete failures. Goff and Carr are still not fully established players.

Baker has the skills. However, your team has to win. In the end that is the dominate stat.

You're eyes may have told you that, but it's not true.

As for the rest of this reads/progressions discussion going on........LOL

Nice article. I can't tell you how much I wish I knew how Baker was going to perform this year. I just desperately want to know. It's like when I was waiting on the final season of Game of Thrones. Hopefully it doesn't turn out the same way...

Re: Brady. I have to say, I thought he was the best QB I've ever seen at reading coverages. I thought his post-snap reads were even better than Manning.

That's deflection Tab. That's taking the very things that Baker took the4 blame for and trying to shift that blame onto someone else.

Sorry you are one of the last posters on this board to be the decision maker of who is deflecting and who is being objective about Baker. Truly you are condescending setting your self up as the Posting God...hmmm maybe cause you cannot handle yourself in an actual debate so you simply fall on the OH YOU ARE DEFLECTING if anyone posts their position of what they saw last year. How dare you...you should be ashamed of yourself.

I would agree w/that. I think both Brady and Manning were great at pre-snap and post-snap reads.

Pre-snap reads are about reading the defense. What tendencies that team employs in that particular look, the down and distance, the score, field position, time on the clock, etc.

Post-snap reads are about quickly going through your progressions. It's not just about throwing to the "right guy," it's about doing it quickly.

It's hard to diss either Brady or Manning in either area, but if I were judging, I would say:

Manning was probably the best ever [Brees and Brady are right there] at pre-snap reads. Brady was probably the best ever at reading post-snap coverages.

It drives me nuts when people--and even announcers--try to make it sound like reading defenses is just one thing. There is a significant difference between pre and post-snap reads.

U never saw JOE MONTANA play .. i find that hard to believe ...

I was thinking about him as I was typing that. I chose to not include him because many of our posters never really got to watch him play.

I also couldn't recall if it was his pre- or post-snap reads that were better. I'd have to watch some games again. Also, the game was different then because of the rule changes and personnel packages on both offense and defense.

But yes, he is certainly should be put at--or near--the top.

The Great ones are just that!

and each era had multiple great QBs. Don't forget Otto Graham. just cause most of us didn't see him play it does not void his greatness. Right up there with Tom Brady, Joe Montana et al.

So much for any substance coming from you. I'm actually giving Baker credit for stepping up to the plate while you seem to be calling him a liar. Good job.

I'm not going to stoop down to your level.

No need for all that .. just take my word for it ... *L* ...

I agree tabber ... each era has its studs and there could be an argument made for a handful as to who was the best ever ... its so subjective ... well after Joe anyhow .. *L* ...

Completely agree.

Baker stepping up and owning his sh...stuff is one of many reasons why I wanted to draft him. This isn't really anything new.

Will you do the same and apologize to me for all the grief you gave me about his prep for last season? I normally would not ask, but the constant claims of me being a liar were over the top.

With that said, I am glad Baker is taking accountability and has worked harder this off-season. I also like how he is not making news w/his mouth.

I don't know if he is going to be a good qb or not, but I feel more confident about him this year than I did last year at this time.

We have the best weapons in the league. If Baker plays well, we will be an unreal team. I think he has a shot to have a really big year.

you an I got clobbered last year at this time with our opinions about Baker.

Have you apologized to me, yet?

And last year, Baker was asked by his coach to get away from football. So, doubly no.

My point was not Baker's preparation or lack there of, but rather that Baker was doing as he was asked. Did he learn from last year? Hopefully Freddie did as well.

I didn't think so. I won't bother you w/it again.

I didn't think so, either.

Why would you expect an apology if you've never given one?

And ironically, you lied and said you would, but never did.

Sometimes you need to be knocked down before you can see the truth.

These young athletes grow up, and for many years are told how special they are, treated differently, and often are miles ahead of others around them in terms of talent and ability.

I think last year was an eye opener for Baker. The NFL is the best of the best, there is no skating through now.

In hind sight, I think having a great rookie year followed by a bad last year really may help him. In his first 2 years in the league he's seen both ways, super highs and super lows, and NOW we have the talent all round him, so we need him to be on his game, and putting in the work.

'He's all ball': No excuses for Browns' Baker Mayfield in Year 3

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29745264


BEREA, Ohio -- Before knowing that the coronavirus pandemic would sweep the country, Kevin Stefanski knew he needed to go meet his quarterback. The new Cleveland Browns head coach phoned his father, a front-office executive with the Detroit Pistons, to inform him he was headed to Austin, Texas, the following morning to see Baker Mayfield.

As fate would have it, Ed Stefanski was actually flying to Austin the same February day on a scouting mission for the Pistons. The Stefanskis had even booked reservations at the same hotel.

The next day, Kevin Stefanski introduced himself to Mayfield's family, including his wife, Emily, parents and brother. Then that night, as Stefanski and Mayfield went to dinner together, Ed Stefanski dropped by the restaurant to say hello.

"Tremendously valuable," Mayfield says now of that day. "For us to establish that relationship ... getting to meet his dad ... talk about things off the field and just for him to see what I'm about and for me to see what he was about. You hear all these things, but until you can sit down and have a conversation with somebody, that's when you truly get to know someone. A big value that looking back on I think we'll appreciate."

Weeks later, the magnitude of COVID-19 became a reality in the United States. That soon transformed the Browns' offseason into a virtual one. Mayfield and Kevin Stefanski did not see each other in person again until late last month when Mayfield reported for training camp. But that meeting in February set the foundation for what the Browns are hoping will be a bounce-back campaign for Mayfield heading into his pivotal third season in the NFL.

"From that moment until now, I've been very impressed with Baker," Stefanski said. "He's all ball."

From that moment in 2018 when they picked Mayfield No. 1 overall in the draft, the Browns have been all Mayfield.

Since then, Browns owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam have fired a general manager, three head coaches and two playcallers in an attempt to find the right combination for Mayfield, even if all the turnover hampered his development along the way.

This offseason, new general manager Andrew Berry doubled down on the franchise's belief in Mayfield and broke the bank to upgrade the offense around him. Berry committed a franchise-record $63 million in guaranteed money to sign Pro Bowl tight end Austin Hooper, right tackle Jack Conklin and backup quarterback Case Keenum -- the latter primarily to serve as a sounding board for Mayfield. Berry also used the 10th overall pick in the draft on Alabama tackle Jedrick Wills Jr., selected to be Mayfield's blindside protector.

Prior to that, the Haslams, with chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta leading the search, handpicked Stefanski, who once coached Mayfield's childhood football hero, Brett Favre, in Minnesota. Stefanski will try to help Mayfield fully realize the potential he flashed as a rookie, which then dissipated in a dismal and dysfunctional season in Cleveland last year.

Now, despite Mayfield being just the fourth quarterback in NFL history to endure four different head coaches in his first three seasons with one team, the pressure has shifted squarely on him to deliver.

The supporting cast, featuring Hooper, wideouts Odell Beckham Jr. and Jarvis Landry, and running backs Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt -- all Pro Bowl players -- might be the envy of any quarterback. The offensive line, behind Conklin and Wills, could be the most improved in the league. The Stefanski scheme, heavy on play-action, seems better suited to Mayfield's skill set.

With all of that in place, the excuses of the past are gone. The onus is on Mayfield to prove he is indeed Cleveland's franchise quarterback and capable of turning the Browns into a winner.

"I think it's an unbelievable opportunity, with the moves we've made, the pieces we brought in," Mayfield said. "I'm extremely excited about that.

"All that matters is this year. A new team, a new staff -- and we are ready to roll."

Mayfield, known for his flag-planting swagger, acknowledges that he lost his way last year. After tossing 21 interceptions on a 6-10 team, he even confessed to doubting himself -- a rare admission from the former two-time college walk-on so defined by self-confidence no matter the doubters.

"Not having that success, not finding out what was working, I think I tried different ways of trying to have that success, and I didn't find it," he said. "I lost myself in that, and I wasn't able to be who I [needed to be] for these guys."

The virtual offseason away, Mayfield says, provided him with time alone to rediscover himself mentally and recommit physically. Time he didn't always have last summer.

Coming off a season in which he broke an NFL rookie record with 27 touchdown passes, Mayfield became an even bigger star than he was at Oklahoma, where he won the Heisman Trophy. He spent time socializing in California. He got married there, as well. He filmed commercials and appeared on magazine covers, including ESPN The Magazine's.

This offseason, Mayfield turned down numerous media opportunities and agreed to only one interview -- a Zoom call in late May with Cleveland media arranged by the team. "Moving in silence," he called it then. "That's how I used to do it before getting on a bigger stage."

Instead of gallivanting on the coast, he and Emily stayed with Mayfield's parents while the house the couple bought on Lake Travis on the edge of Austin, Texas, was being renovated.

Following their meeting, Mayfield poured his energy into consuming Stefanski's playbook. With offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt, who tutored Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay, Mayfield revamped his footwork, which cratered at times last year.

Mayfield led a players-only Zoom meeting every Thursday to foster locker room chemistry. He crashed other position group Zoom meetings to study what they were doing. He invited several of his offensive teammates to Austin in mid-May so they could finally work out together.

Before that, he helped recruit Hooper to join Cleveland, and in two phone calls over a 24-hour span, convinced No. 3 wide receiver Rashard Higgins to re-sign with the Browns, even though Higgins was being offered more money to play elsewhere.

Perhaps most impressively, though, Mayfield reshaped his body.

With so much happening last summer, including his wedding, Mayfield wasn't able to put as much time into his conditioning. By design, he also added weight to help him withstand the punishment of an NFL season, and to his credit, Mayfield has now started more consecutive games than any Browns quarterback since 1999.

But that extra weight also sapped his quickness and his ability to evade tacklers and scramble outside the pocket last season. Mayfield was sacked more often per passing attempt than any quarterback in the AFC. On top of that, Mayfield was fighting nagging injuries, which prevented him from working out as much he hoped.

"I was heavier than I was ever playing before," he said. "I needed to be able to have the scrambling ability and to be able to move in the pocket." Mobility is a requisite in Stefanski's offense, which relies on a quarterback's ability to roll out off play-action.

"As the quarterback of this team, you are the standard and you are what people follow, and I think he understands that now. We are ready to help him push that standard."
Joel Bitonio on Mayfield
After the season, Mayfield altered his diet to rely on his wife's healthy home cooking, dishes they often post on Instagram. He committed to working with a nutritionist and a trainer. And when he arrived to camp, he had added four pounds of lean mass and cut his body fat. Beckham proclaimed this week that Mayfield even "has like four-pack" abs now.

"Physically, he did a hell of a job in the offseason of getting ready," Van Pelt said. "A lot of that is leaning down, losing a little bit of weight, and that is going to help him as far as his movement skills go. All the work that he has put in the offseason is definitely showing up on the field now in training camp."

The talent surrounding Mayfield on offense is undeniable. ESPN recently ranked Cleveland's running back unit No. 1 in the league, its wide receivers fifth, its offensive line sixth and its tight ends seventh.

The biggest looming question is whether Mayfield can make it all work in Stefanski's system, which figures to begin with making it work with Beckham.

After then-general manager John Dorsey traded for Beckham last spring, the Browns became one of the heaviest bet-on teams to win the Super Bowl in Las Vegas. But together, the pairing failed to sniff its own expectations. And while Mayfield and Beckham always had each other's back in the media, the two struggled to find a rapport on the field. Beckham's sports hernia injury, suffered in training camp, prevented them from developing their chemistry in practice.

Playing through the injury, Beckham ranked 15th in the NFL with 132 targets, but just 131st in receptions per target, with a catch rate of only 56%. The duo's failure to get on the same page culminated in a loss at Denver in November. On a game-deciding fourth-and-4, Mayfield was criticized for not throwing to Beckham, who had dashed open along the sideline. Although neither Mayfield nor Beckham has commented on it, Mayfield had been expecting Beckham to run a mesh route across the middle of the field and cross paths with Landry, according to multiple sources from last year's team. Mayfield still tried to squeeze the ball to Landry, but the pass fell incomplete, dropping the Browns to 2-6 while turning their playoff aspirations into a long shot.

This week, Mayfield told NFL Network that his chemistry with Beckham is "sure as hell going to be a lot better than last year." Beckham, healthy again and thriving in training camp after undergoing surgery in January, agreed, then praised Mayfield's physical and mental state this camp.

"Of course, I'm going to say it's going to be better than last year," Beckham said. "As far as him, he looks great -- mentally, physically. He's doing great. He's just in a good place. As a teammate and as a guy who has always been a fan of Baker and as a brother, it's great to see him in this place."

Adding Hooper should only help in creating more favorable matchups for Beckham out wide. More crucially, Hooper should improve Mayfield's efficiency by giving him a reliable target over the middle and underneath the coverage that he desperately lacked in 2019.

Even though the Browns didn't have a tight end finish with more than 15 receptions last season, Mayfield was still more effective when two or more were on the field. According to ESPN Stats & Information research, Mayfield averaged 8.3 yards per passing attempt with nine touchdowns to just three interceptions and a QBR of 62 with multiple tight ends. With one or none, those numbers plummeted to 6.9 yards per attempt and a QBR of 49; Mayfield also threw 18 interceptions with just 13 touchdowns with one or no tight ends (Stefanski utilized multiple tight ends on the field 57% of the time as offensive coordinator in Minnesota last season, the highest rate in the NFL).

Before Hooper signed with them, the Browns pitched him on being the type of tight end that Baltimore Ravens Pro Bowler Mark Andrews was for Mayfield at Oklahoma, according to a league source. In 2017, the year Mayfield won the Heisman and the Sooners topped the nation in offense, Andrews led the team with 62 receptions, even as OU boasted a pair of future first-round wide receivers, Marquise Brown and CeeDee Lamb.

So far in camp, Mayfield and Hooper have been connecting as though they've played together for years.

"I got in contact with him early on in the process so when I did sign, I already had an idea of where am I going, who is my quarterback and what is he all about," said Hooper, who had 75 catches, 787 yards and six touchdowns -- all career highs -- playing with quarterback Matt Ryan in Atlanta last year. "Baker, obviously talented, a strong arm. He has a real competitive fire. That really made me want to sign here."

Hooper immediately went to work out with Mayfield in Austin after signing, then returned in May with the other Browns players.

"Banked a few hundred reps with him, had a good time with him on and off the field and just kind of got a feel for him, his personality, his wife, his family and his friends and just kind of really see Baker the person," Hooper said. "I definitely think that was the initial spark that really helped our chemistry."

Mayfield addressed his teammates the first week of training camp. He told them that he didn't do enough last year to help them. He asked them to hold him accountable. And he vowed to be better in 2020.

"He let us know it was not enough last year, and he felt bad about it," Pro Bowl guard Joel Bitonio said. "From a leadership perspective this year, he has done everything right. He is trying to lead by example.

"Just looking at him when he showed up, he looked a lot better. His body looked better. He looked like he was moving really well. He looked strong. All the things you want to see in a quarterback. As the quarterback of this team, you are the standard and you are what people follow, and I think he understands that now. We are ready to help him push that standard."

That has translated to the practice field.

A flashpoint manifested last training camp when Mayfield cursed and screamed at his receivers, including Beckham, for not running back to him on a scramble drill. This year, Mayfield has remained vocal, but shown a softer touch. This week, he pulled Donovan Peoples-Jones aside and put his hand on the rookie wide receiver's helmet as he spoke to him.

"Baker is a really good teammate," Stefanski said. "I think he really understands his teammates. I think his teammates play hard for him. That just goes back to that thing he has that nobody can put a finger on and that the quarterback position has to have. You have to have 'it.' You have to make sure you bring your guys along."

Then, channeling his father, Stefanski utilized a hoops analogy.

"The No. 1 job of a quarterback is to make the guys around you play better. There are a bunch of ways to do that. It is like the point guard on a basketball team."

Stefanski wasn't the only candidate for Cleveland's head-coaching job to fly to Austin to visit Mayfield. The week of the 2018 draft, New England offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels made the trip to Texas to tell Mayfield in person that the Patriots would be interested in drafting him, should he slide at all.

Before hiring Stefanski in January, the Browns interviewed McDaniels at their practice facility for eight hours. Given the previous relationship, Mayfield was intrigued by the possibility of playing for McDaniels this time. But so far, Mayfield couldn't be more impressed with Stefanski, dating back to their time together in February.

"That's the most important relationship on a team, between the head coach and the quarterback," said Browns backup quarterback Garrett Gilbert, who grew up with Mayfield in Austin. "And I think you can see the beginnings there of a very solid relationship. And I'd say you'd probably have to take that back to Coach Stefanski flying down to Austin. That shows a lot about him, but also, if you know Baker and understand Baker, a couple things that are most important to him are loyalty and, obviously, his family."

As one of the NFL's youngest head coaches, Stefanski, 37, is all ball, too. And together, he and Mayfield will attempt to achieve the NFL version of mission impossible: end the second-longest playoff drought in all of professional sports, now up to 18 years.

"I see a very committed football player who is ready to lead and who is excited to play," Stefanski said. "Baker has embraced all of that -- since the moment he and I got to know each other."

Definitive proof that Baker is the best! LOL

You are doing nothing but attacking my opinion at every front in regards to Baker. If I do not Blame him for EVERY thing and point out other variables that contributed to his bad play...you just say "DEFLECTING" as if that voids my opinion.

It does not...just cause you don't have much knowledge on the subject it doesn't mean all must dummy down to your level. Sorry I will not. I continue to state that Baker had an off season last year. I just don't wish to put all the blame on him cause there were several contributions to our poor season on O. None of which is deflection. Of course it gives a POSITIVE outlook for our young franchise QB. But you wish to make it a shadow of a possible bust instead...then you pay an off compliment and state that you are complimenting him.

Proof is you claim " while you seem to be calling him a liar. Good job."

By posting that you actually void yourself of any credibility on the subject. So by your thought process if I state a fact of something other than Baker that contributed to the poor display by the O somehow in your warped way of thinking I'm calling Baker a liar. smh
Shame on you, you have sunken pretty low.

Why do u waste your time replying to him bro? ..

I make a football post on the exact same topic and u ignore it and reply to him with ZERO FOOTBALL in it ... it happens on multiple topics and has been going on for years ...

If u come here to talk football .. why?

There’s no need to defend yourself ... everyone knows who he is and who u are ...

All your replies to him does is make everyone quit reading everything u say to him .. u did the same thing with Vers awhile back ...

Come on man. Get back to football ...

I'll chime in w/what I think is fair on this subject.

Baker talks about putting the work in this year, being a better leader, being in a better mental place, etc this year. I know I tried bringing up that he didn't work hard enough last off-season. And his recent comments combined w/his play seem to confirm that.

This year he is in better shape. You can see that even his face is thinner. He is keeping his mouth shut about coaches, opponents, the media, and teammates. These are positive things. I truly believe all of those things were negatives last year. But, I respect a person who can learn from their mistakes.

I don't know if all of this will translate into him becoming a really good qb or not. There are still some questions. But, I do think he is in a better place both physically and mentally this year.

Baker manned up. It's about time you do the same. Trying to make it sound like you know everything and anyone who disagrees with you doesn't know anything sounds pretty stupid.

I agreed with what Baker said. I gave him credit for manning up and working to do better. It seems you think Baker is a liar and if someone doesn't agree with you, you claim they're dumb.

You do understand just how that makes you look, right?

You see, I don't know if you simply don't read through the threads or have a problem comprehending what is posted. Not my problem. But I have stated that Freddie only made matters worse. That he had a part to play in all of this.

I didn't lay all of the blame on Baker. I'm simply happy to see he accepted responsibility for his part of it. I'm amazed that accepting responsibility has become a bad thing and giving someone credit for accepting responsibility is a bad thing.

So you just keep ranting tab. I'm sure others can read the thread ans see what's been posted. Your superiority complex is not becoming of you.

jc -

I've tried to watch as much of training camp as possible.

I think Baker gets maybe 20-ish 11-on-11 reps during the course of a practice. They are not always with the 1s and not always against the 1s.

Is that enough to get these guys ready for the season? Man, it doesn't seem like it.

As I was typing this, Baker just threw a laser to Odell for a TD during practice down at the stadium.

Baker to Hooper TD.

Practice seems like an awful lot of "teaching" and very little "practicing".

Ugh. This is maddening. Doesn't appear to be much sense of urgency. Would love to see a Ravens practice for comparison purposes.

Live tackling happening now!

And that's what puts teams with new coaching staffs so far behind.

When you have an established system, the veterans can pick up some of the load in helping the rookies and those just signed along. You can actually work right away with practicing an established system.

When the entire system and coaching staff is new, the new system must first be established in order to practice it.

All teams with new coaching staffs are severely behind the eight ball in a year where much of the early time when the system can be taught has been very limited. And no preseason games only amplifies the situation.

Nothing wrong w/teaching. I believe in quality of reps over quantity. I never allowed bad practice habits. If we saw them occur, we stopped and taught.

I have no idea if the teaching is good or not w/the Browns, but teaching is more valuable than a ton of reps. Especially, early on.

Hard to talk about football with really not much to see except Virtual crap.

I don't respond to you if you are spot on. The kid will take some time in the system to do good. The less street ball the longer it will take.

His routes are usually longer than CKs and he then will check down where CK has knowledge of the system and takes on shorter routes. Baker I see looking for the longer and isn't satisfied with the dink and dunk available.

I heard he had a 3 n out with his first drive. The second was a nice 70 yard drive without any incompletions except a Trow away near the goal line. What I didn't like to see was trick plays, why do our coaches get tempted to do trick plays...they never seem to work...lol

Oh well still not much football to look at and its not our starting D out there as we are protecting the meat of our D (the DL) and the rest is put together with spit and mud.

later... I'm fighting another battle here. so not involved with my Browns as I should be.

God bless and good luck bro ...

Thanks for the response ....

In fairness, the Ravens have a lot less "teaching" to do, which concerns me - as it should fans of any team with a new staff - regarding how well we play against teams that have had more stability in place with the type of offseason we've had.

So there are some new Mayfield Progressive commercials i stumbled upon on YouTube. Gotta admit they are pretty damn funny.

Bob the grounds keeper is awesome.

j/c...



Somewhere, Memphis' #FreeToddMonken is smiling with vindication.

Justice is served!

Additional commentary from Brent....

Funny how many people defended Freddie on here last year.

Before or after we/they thought he was bad?

j/c:

A couple of questions and comments:

--Who is Brent Slobeski? I went to his page and let's just say he doesn't look like a real journalist. Here is his description:



I think that there are a lot of so-called experts out there that are being used to further agendas.

--Who was calling the non-scripted plays during the second half of the 2018 season for Baker Mayfield?

I don't think Freddie was a good head coach. However, I think cherry-picking stats is pretty lame. I also don't think Baker's situation was all that bad last year. He had a ton of talent around him that most qbs would love to have.

I think Baker was terrible last year. I think others were terrible, too. I just don't buy all the excuses by amateurs who are painting a one-dimensional picture.

I am undecided on whether or not Baker will be good this year. I am not writing him off. I am also not blaming most of his problems from last year on others. I could see Baker having a big year. I could see Baker struggling again, although not as bad as last year. I do think that a lot of excuses have been made for the guy.

Edit: I am not answering those who try and make this about me, rather than talking about Baker, Sobo, Freddie, or the Browns.

I think how this particular stat is being interpreted is MOSTLY correct. But like most things (especially last season) there's more to the story than just coaching. That stat could just as easily speak to Baker's abilities when deviating from scripted plays. Could also speak to the preparation of the players around him when going off-script (looking at you over there in the wrong spot, OBJ...).

From the followup tweets, it sounds like this particular talking head wants to shift blame off of Baker onto Freddie. Freddie deserves blame, but so does Baker. So while I'm all for blaming Freddie for last year, I'm also not taking any of that blame off of Baker (if that makes sense).

Brent Sobleski is no different than anyone on here.... he's a poster on a website. The OBR isn't journalism, but, like here, you do get people that have a clue and do some pretty good analysis. He's generally one of them.

Brent S is an "insider" at OBR (not that that means much).

I've read a lot of his articles over the years and he knows his stuff (doesn't mean he's always correct). I've read him being critical of Baker. I've read him being critical of the whole franchise. I didn't take the above as his shifting blame away from Baker as much as him spreading the blame around.

The whole Browns QB thing is so typically exhausting for us diehards to consider/evaluate...when was the last time we had a "normal" situation in-which to evaluate our QB? I don't think that has been a thing STR.

Oddly enough, when you showed the SOBO and beer snob parts of his bio, I realized that I'm friends with him on Untappd because of a mutual friend we have. Had no idea this whole time that's who he was. Just thought it was funny.

j/c

So to sum it all up, Baker was lying about the role he played and the issues he owned up to and somehow Brent Sobleski knows more than Baker.

Well played!

Rish posted this article in the Postgame thread. It's by Jake Burns and he wrote it after yesterday's game. I have to post the link because there are a lot of videos in it. However, Burns is pointing out many of the things I have been saying about Baker for quite some time.

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-brow...ield-151465806/

It was more clear yesterday everything coming out of camp about Baker, can't process, slow eyes, happy feet. He's a 1 read QB at this point and that craziness of his feet when he's "reading the field" no clue what that is. Being that OBJ is OBJ and who knows what goes on in his head, I think he's probably sick of bad QB play. It probably leads to him being less invested and taking plays off. That needs to get fixed. Baker is going to lose the team if his play keeps up as it has. I honestly think Baker is just too short and doesn't know how to move in the pocket to see the throwing lanes. If you watch brees, hes stands in pocket sometimes on his tip toes and just does subtle moves to get a better view of the field. I'm willing to let him get a few games in this new system but I think at some point you have to just try something else before bad QB play costs another HC a job, or is it bad HC costs us a QB..who knows at his point

jc...

The agendas pick up right where they left off last season...somethings never change.

So mac, can you provide a better breakdown than Burns did? Can you provide videos like he did? Can you explain to us why his analysis is agenda driven and your opinions are not agenda driven?

I think it's a great article and breakdown of Baker's struggles. Hopefully Bake improves over the next several weeks. If he doesn't and can't we are in the market for a new QB in the off-season which would suck.

Mac, the article was very fair. I suggest you read it.

Burns is spot on in his assessment.

Unless it’s like last off-season when every QB was available.

Andy Dalton, Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota or Derek Carr, and/or Alex Smith will all be available next off-season.

Of course this is all premature. It’s week one. Things should get better.

I read it (and enjoyed it for its info and breakdown but not its message and what it means for the team)... it does beg the age-old question, though.

Can Mayfield improve in these areas once he (and his pass-catchers) get comfortable in the offense? Once Mayfield gets comfortable with where his receivers are supposed to be, does that then free up more processing power to focus on the defense? When he no longer has to learn/focus on learning his own offense, will the extra prep-time allowed for the defense he'll be facing improve his performance?

I have tried to explain the differences in pre-snap and post-snap reads many times. I have tried to explain that it's easier to get better at pre-snap reads, but quickly reading pre-snap coverages is a completely different animal.

It's up to you on whether or not to believe those things or not.

J/c

We all want Baker to be the guy ... but simply put: he stinks. Could he improve? Maybe. I’m not a guru or evaluator. I just know that he can’t read a defense, isn’t comfortable, and seems shell shocked. His results are putrid for a #1 overall pick.

Baker does not even know how to read his own offense... Just look at how much time we need to line-up, and how Baker looks confused pre-snap with his own team.

Just bench him and let other QB do it. We actually have a good offense.

I like his chances of being the 3rd QB in NFL history to throw for 3500+ yds and 20+ touchdowns in their first 3 years.

Vers, Baker does not even know where is own offense is supposed to line-up, kid is a mess, he does not prepare.

I am almost wondering if game time just unravels him. I hope coach actually calls plays they practice. This should not be the first time he runs the play.

You can't survive on confidence, swagger, and playing with house money. We are seeing the results of someone who can't overcome when those things go away. We were all swayed by his rookie year where he had those things in abundance. Look, no one cared about how many wins we got that year or if we made the playoffs. There was zero pressure. He went out and beat up on bad teams and got us excited. He overstepped with the bravado his second year and got punched in the mouth. He has yet to make a counter punch. And at this level the counter punch becomes cerebral. He's yet to show he has it upstairs. There could be some physical limitations as well. Maybe he doesn't feel comfortable going through his progressions due to his height.

As his confidence begins to fade, his play will continue to decrease. I would pound the Bengals hard this week if you are a betting person. Burrow is playing with the same house money and zero expectations that Baker had his rookie year. He put together a game winning drive yesterday that got negated by a bogus call (the titans of the league would not have had that called against them). The Bengals are going to give the Browns all they can handle. And it doesn't look like our staff, who is supposed to be detailed and organized, has earned the benefit of the doubt that they will out coach the other side.

But can it improve (improve enough, if at all) is my question.

I don't know, oober. I'm concerned because the post-snap reads have undone many qbs. However, I'm not saying it's a done deal.

I do want to add that I am not blaming Baker for the pre-snap stuff and getting guys lined up. I don't think the not getting guys lined up is fair.

j/c

I've read Jake Burns for a long time. This is not the first time he has laid out some of Baker's issues. He's really good (Jake) at these types of breakdowns.

Some will complain about "excuses" and some see reasons...but perspective is in order here:

#1 - What Baker did his rookie year was not a fluke. It is also not a guarantee that he can continue playing like that;

#2 - Since his outstanding rookie year, he got a big head and a bad HC coach who was running a circus. HC #3 mid us.

#3 - His 3rd season - and 3rd training camp - he's on his 4th HC and limited COVID training camp.

First time HC calling plays, another new offense, a Center that didn't practice until a couple days before the game and new footwork in the mix. No pre-season games...and a #1 WR who isn't playing/hasn't-played any better than a #3.

His first offensive "system" in his rookie year suited him after the head coach was canned. His second year offensive "system" was build for something other than the 2019 Browns team. The 2020 offensive "system" is brand spanking new...again.

I mean...what could go wrong?

Lamar Jackson went to a solid, consistent, perennial playoff team with as much consistency in HC and front office as can be built. He's had (1) head coach in his NFL career going into year #3. His offense has been built to suit him from his first NFL snap.

Josh Allen went to a solid team that wasn't a playoff regular because they had Tom Brady in their division. His HC has been there before him and was able to do something with Tyrod Taylor. He's had (1) head coach in his NFL career going into year #3. His offense has been built to suit him from his first NFL snap.

Sam Darnold went to a team that was juuuuust behind us in the #1 loser department. His team and head coach are a train wreck. He looks like a rookie on the filed.

Josh Rosen went to a bad team who gave up on him in less than a year. He's toast.

If all we had to work against was COVID - like the other succeeding QBs listed above - I'd throw out that excuse. However, the situations that LJ & JA were drafted into are polar opposites from what Baker was drafted into.

We are starting over...AGAIN...but with some real talent on the team for a change. But this is going to take a minute. Starting with the Ravens did us no favors, but might be the best thing that happened to us in the long run.

In the end, we learned essentially nothing yesterday...other than we have a long way to go to complete with the likes of the Ravens.

You HAVE been regularly posting about the reads issues. I've also read it elsewhere beyond you and Jake.

I simply cannot blast Baker for his weaknesses in that area because he's been on such a circus of a team. Maybe the reads will be his undoing. Maybe not. But as I point out above, his situation in the NFL has been ridiculous. We don't do anything well and he has been at the wheel for (4) different coaches in 2 years and a game. It's remarkable.

I agree w/you about changing coaches, schemes, etc. It's just that I have always said [long before Baker every got here] that reading post-snap coverages is more of an innate thing than a learning curve. It's all about processing speed.

I liken the reads thing to foot speed. A person can get faster (running) with the right training, but in the end they have what they have to a point.

I think the processing thing is very similar. For Baker, the training has either been all over the place or non-existent...and his prep and coaching for 2019 was just pitiful.

I'd like to think that his reads would be much better if the circumstances he's played under looked more like LJ and JA than what he's had to date.

I think that's a good analogy. I don't know that we've seen Baker's ceiling yet because he's not been given the stability/platform to be coached up to his ceiling (if we are seeing his ceiling we are in trouble) ... he's not Peyton or Brady ... but hopefully he's better than we've seen.

That's the question I was trying to ask. I don't think it's too much to ask to see improvement in this regard throughout the season.

I think a part of the problem might be that our WRs struggle against physical corners. It sounded from some of the camp pressers that timing/connecting Baker's steps with where guys are in their routes was an important part of our offense. Getting jammed can throw off that timing. Marcus Peters and Marlon Humphrey are one of the better duos at cornerback in the NFL. Not an ideal matchup for a new offense.

I kind of would like to see us use more motion to try to get OBJ free releases. Fortunately, I think the rest of the secondaries (CBs specifically) on our schedule aren't as good as the Ravens.

vers...so you don't deny that the agendas pick up right where they left off last season?

Here in Cleveland, Ohio, we are blessed with such a wealth of coaching talent, be it from some "shock jock" who has been rewarded with a platform based on his...what?...based upon his/her professional experience coaching football...

...ah, eer, SORRY, THAT WOULD BE A FREAKING LIE OF "GIGANTIC PROPORTION" because those who are the most opinionated and outspoken have NO PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE.

Nearly all are nothing more than amateurs with an agenda.

One freaking question for all you "message board", "radio" and "internet" shock jocks who are pushing your personal agendas...

...how many QBs in the NFL have been handed a new playbook from a new HC and/or OC EVERY FREAKING YEAR THEY HAVE BEEN IN THE NFL?

TAKE THE FLOOR YOU SHOCK JOCKS...give us the answer.

mac,

I'm not saying you are wrong or non-warranted in your position here. BUT...THIS Jake Burns guy does a really good job of breaking down this stuff.

I don't see what he sees real time, but...it's interesting to read his stuff and go back and re-watch a game thinking of his points.

JMO

Actually it was a rational breakdown. Now you may not agree with the conclusions Jake Burns came to, but it certainly did not appear to be based on an agenda or shock value.

We would all be interested in you breaking it down and your evaluation. However, attacking the messenger does none of that.

j/c:

The Burns article is a very fair assessment of Baker's performance yesterday. He didn't play well and mirrored many issues from last year. Anyone alluding to agenda needs to get a better grasp of Burns earlier, and also, fair breakdowns.

Mood booster! Not really.

The pass Baker made that Calais Campbell dropped into coverage on is an easy read. Every QB in the NFL should be able to make that read.

Add the fact that a 6'8" guy stands out a bit. Had Landry open on the other side of the field. May not have got the first down, but never took his eyes off of Hodge.

Wasn't Mayfield the highest rated PFF QB coming out of college ever or something?

Not good that PFF is jumping ship. Also, not a good look for Cleveland, where careers go to die. If we traded for Mahomes, he would all of a sudden suck. Just the way it works in Cleveland.

I want Trevor Lawrence so bad, but Cleveland would probably ruin him too.

mac, why do you always answer questions w/a question? LOL

But anyway, Yes, I do think the agendas have picked up right where they left of last season. Your posts are proof of that.

Baker doesn't trust his O Line and he should because they gave him clean pockets yesterday. Run the ball more and more play action . Get Baker rolling out or sit him out. The play calls weren't Bakers strengths.

Not sure if there are any strengths left in him.

The coaches have to show him the film and point out the pocket and that his line were doing their job

Which i dont get because I thought the whole point of hiring Stefanski was to DO THAT STUFF with baker

Baker will have his highs and lows. We may as well pick up Josh Rosen.

I think in 21 Baker will be fine. 3rd OC in 3 years is brutal as a QB.

I want to at least watch the Bengals game before we start indicting the playcalling.

We were down early to B'more, and nothing was working. Hard to get a good read on Stefanski and Co. under those conditions.

Impossible to have any playcalling when your QB can't even read his own offense. He was completely unprepared,again, he does not know what he is doing under center.

Looks like he's still doubting himself.

I don't think that is fair. I don't even know what "read his own offense" means. Makes no sense. And how do you know he was unprepared? I don't believe that.

I think Baker's struggles are because he struggles reading coverages post-snap. I think he was prepared. He's in better shape and his coaches have praised him for how he is learning. It's not fair to make things up.

and he’s doubting himself more now because everybody else doubts him, no doubt

I have been thinking about this quite a bit. Not sure if this is right or not, but it makes some sense.

We all saw how accurate Baker was in college and as a rookie, especially after Freddie took over as OC.

Last year, we noticed some issues w/accuracy.

In game one, we saw more issues w/accuracy and some of his passes are even fluttering.

What would explain that? I have a theory:

I think he threw to wide open receivers in college. As a rookie, Freddie changed things up and called for him to typically make quick, one-read throws and not read more than half the field.

Last year and in game one of this year, Baker has been asked to read post-snap coverages. I think his struggles w/this have led to some doubt and hesitation. Remember Darnold's infamous quote last year during the New England game where he uttered something like I'm seeing ghosts? I think Baker's confusion is leading to some doubt and those things are adversely affecting his accuracy.

I think it makes sense. I never played football, but have played/coached basketball all my life. I Was a very good shooting guard and can teach that position very well. I know if a team changes defenses it can throw you off. If your rhythm is off, your percentage will decrease, etc.

I’d imagine that if I was used to more open shots ... or catch/shoot against a 2-3 zone ... and suddenly our offense changes and teams play me a triangle and 2 and I’m shooting more off the dribble and reading/reacting ... my percentage would decrease ... and my confidence/comfort would too

That's when you need to be able to create your own shot and do other things without the ball. The counter punch.

Baker has yet to fix the areas the punch in the mouth exposed. He hasn't been able to provide a counter punch.

I'll say that is pretty clear to even the untrained eye that Baker has no idea what is going on once the snap has been made. I'm starting to think he has no idea what is going on presnap as well. I think he just calls the plays given to him and tries to execute those to the best of his ability, including trying to hit his first read. He's not recognizing anything at all presnap. He's lost.

When you are that lost presnap, now your height becomes an issue. You have to have some idea of where you are going with the ball presnap, even if it is different than the play call by what the defense is showing you. Once that breaks down, slow eyes and lack of height really hurt him.

I've said much the same thing myself. You can get away with what Freddie did by making Baker that one read QB for a while. But it simply won't last in the NFL. Once your opponents get film on you and figure it out, you will have to expand that offense. At that point he will have to begin reading D's post snap and go through his progressions quickly. The speed of the game simply will not allow for anything less.

This is the point where many QB's who were highly successful in college struggle. It's where Baker has struggled. IMO this is an area where he will improve over the season or we'll be headed in another direction. Not because I say so or that it's my desire. But because the ability to do those things is dependent on Baker and not everyone around him.

Every NFL HC tries to teach their QB's to do this. So it's not about the coaching when it comes to post snap reads and progression. It's exactly as you have been describing it for quite some time. It's about the ability to mentally process it.

Until fans can get a grip on how that works, we will continue to see fans create scapegoats out of every HC and WR in sight rather than recognize the actual issue.

Stefanski and company didn't draft Baker. He isn't married to Baker in that way. So people may wish to consider the fact that Stefanski may not go down with the Baker ship. He may make a change at QB before he feels all is lost for this season.

We all hope Baker progresses and becomes the answer. But people may wish to prepare themselves in the event that doesn't happen.

When watching the training camp videos you could see the stark contrast on how baker and keenum process. Keenum would be scanning and starting his progressions while dropping back and Baker would wait until finishing his drop. So he would be late or wouldn't go past first read.. You see that alot in games. Vince Young was exactly like that...tons of talent but mentally couldn't see more than one side of the field

Case Keenum may look like he knows what he’s doing but he doesn’t. He’s bad and he’s limited physically.

This season needs to be used to have Baker figure it out (or not).

And that's the saddest part. If we could put Keenan's ability to process into Baker's brain, we would probably have a damned good QB right now.

If Keenum is bad, what does that make Baker, when Keenum has better career numbers in every single category and actually led his team to an NFC championship game.. Not saying Keenum is the end all but come on now, he's not a worse option than baker, far from it.. Baker should be hearing footsteps because there is no allegiance with this staff and I really don't think they care where he was drafted. If we are losing games because the QB position is holding the offense back, just like any position I'm sure they will make a change. I think everyone's hope is the light comes on for Baker and we go on our merry way and start playing to the potential this offense should have. I just don't think his leash is as long as it was in years past. I think keenum could run this offense well with the weapons we have

Might be more of the same. Riddle me this: Later in the game, and we have seen it with some regularity, why the hitch during the wait? It looks like he is going to deliver on time off his drop, then freezes, often while continuing to stare down the receiver. The ball is up in his hands, but then he pulls it down and then backup, still staring down one receiver. These often end up in him taking a sack. Or overthrowing. As a sidecar to this, he seems to pre-select his receiver, often on the shortest route. An additional downside is he misses or ignores more open receiver, usually outside who seems to be ,at least, as open as say OBJ to whom we kept forcing the ball for a stirring pile of drops.

Baker was drafted not because of his superior QB talent or arm, but because he was a winner, mental fortitude and chip on his shoulder.

I am now sure we drafted the wrong QB, because the worst part of Baker game its his lack of preparation, mental fortitude and winning mentality.

What's the point on waiting for Baker, he is not going to grow 10 inches, develop a better arm or suddenly develop the work ethic and mental attributes to make him Brees 2.0

Baker is a slight better QB than Colt McCoy with much worst mental and work ethic, if he was the QB he was supposed to be he wouldn't be struggling in this areas.

You don't draft a winner and then wait for him to develop the traits. After 3 pre-seasons and Baker still does not know where is offense is supposed to line. He does not know how to read a D pre-snap, he does not have command of the Huddle. When he is called to step up to the plate he always messes up.

Baker is a bust, the sooner we realize it the sooner we can move on.

We know what Keenum is, there is hope Baker can be something positive. That’s the difference. If Baker doesn’t improve he is a career backup just like Keenum is.

Baker has played two years and one game in the NFL. His first year he broke the rookie TD record. His second year, his 3rd head coach got fired.

This is Keenum's 9th year in the league.

How are Darnold & Rosen fairing on their clusterteams?

You know why he was drafted based on what?

He's a bust? After 4 HC's and 2 seasons? You're talent evaluation is needed in the NFL. You can see things others can't.

j/c...

I agree with this. Baker was good in the pocket on Sunday. Didn't really panic or scramble unless needed.

The issue continues to be his slow recognition and when the ball leaves his hand. It makes the whole offense out of rhythm and leads to inaccuracy.

I think it has more to do with trust (or lack thereof) in his receivers than it does with how open they are. His rookie year he was just letting it fly, and Jarvis was making him right. Last year the guys were frequently making him "wrong": drops, deflected INTs (i.e, the Calloway TD turned pick), miscommunications/bad adjustments. He started pretty accurate this season. Then Calais made a play, which he's been known to do. Then OBJ had his drops and ran out of bounds on his own. Then we were playing from behind and never able to get back in a rhythm.

Hopefully, they can figure it out. They're Browns. They're not immune to feeling like anything that can go wrong will anymore than fans are. It's hard to stay confident when things go wrong with this team's recent history.

A little success could go a long way with this team. Here's hoping for a fast start Thursday.

It's really bad.

I came off another thread where a poster was saying guys aren't open. Time for people to start listening to the guys who know what they are talking about like Burns and Orlovsky.

I have thought that Baker was slow going through his progressions since day one, but man, he is now missing wide-open guys that are right in front of him. I think he does not trust what he is seeing.

He's going to lose the team if he already hasn't. These guys know what's going on. And blaming others for his issues probably doesn't sit well w/the players/coaches.

One other thing............take a look at how deep Baker's drops were in that Oflovsky clip. Damn, I don't know if I have ever seen such deep drops. That puts a lot of pressure on your tackles.

Baker is struggling for sure, and he needs to improve, but where has he blamed others?

Not trying to argue because maybe I missed it somewhere, I've just never seen him blame his struggles on his coaches or teammates.

As for Baker, he needs to just go with it. In 2018, he was confident and would test defenses. Now he is playing much more timid. If he gets back to ripping the ball to guys, he'll be fine. If he keeps playing more reserved, he's done.

I didn't mean that Baker was blaming others. I have never seen him do that.

I'm talking about the media and fans blaming others for his issues. Freddie was a target last year. So was the OL. So was OBJ. This year, folks are all over OBJ and saying things like the receivers can't get open. Today's players are all over social media and they read/hear about these things.

The vers agenda continues...

IDK ... it's possible I guess.

Jake Burns wrote a ton of glowing breakdowns on Baker in his rookie year .... I don't remember Vers ever commenting on them, certainly not to highlight how Jake Burns knew football and therefore Baker was a true stud.

I guess everyone gravitates to some extent to reporting and analysis that supports their take on things. That's a proven internet phenomena.

It doesn't really mater ... Baker played badly last year. He started this year off badly. If he doesn't improve significantly in the next few games it won't matter what any of us think or want or hope.... Last year there was a lot of moving parts. This year has barely begun. The truth about Baker will catch up with all of us eventually.... I am much more concerned than ever before though. I don't know that I can say I fervently believe he is going to be a very good NFL QB, I guess what i have is I am not willing to stop believing he might be a really good NFL QB. A lot has to align for it to happen and it starts Thursday night.

I have an agenda, mac. I don't think Baker reads coverages well. I have said that for years. I think you--and others--have an agenda, as well. I think you guys attack the messenger and other players/coaches to deflect blame away from Baker.

So, while I admit I have an agenda..........does that refute the videos and analysis from Burns? Does it refute the very obvious open receivers that Orlovsky pointed out? Does it refute that Baker is one of the lowest ranked passers? Does it refute that he has an almost equal amount of picks to TD since last year? Does it change the fact that his team isn't winning despite having a ton of talent?

We all have agendas, mac. Some use actual facts to support their agendas while others resort to attacking other posters to support their agenda.

I've been thinking a bit about Baker.

Some number of years ago, I was at Training Camp... back when DawgTalkers ruled. Amy Gretsinger had gotten us the VP passes. I had a fab time watching TC and all that went into it.

At the end of the day the team went to one field for 11-11. I was just past the end zone with by back to the Berea buildings. The Offense was coning my way and the defenses backs were to me. The whistle blew and both lines bent over and assumed their stances. The QB was Jeff Garcia who was over center and facing my way.

Garcia started yelling the cadence and says HUT HUT HIKE. As soon as he says HUT HUT HIKE the offense stands up, the defense stands up, and I no longer see Garcia. He's a short guy. It occurs to me that if I can't see Garcia he sure as sheep can't see me.

When everyone stands up Mayfield can't see me either. That means he needs some way to see me.. he needs to move.

The next time we are drafting a QB we need to make sure this guy can see me. We need to make sure the next guy ticks off ALL the criteria. We need someone that is the size of a Josh Allen and athletic.

In the mean time, hopefully we can figure out how to make Baker work out.

Platform shoes and a brain maybe

I think there is something to this, Saint. I know there were posters who were making fun of the height thing in 2018, but there were legit reasons why so many taller qbs were drafted over the years. Hell, I got moved from QB to RB in high school because I was deemed too short to play the position, even though I had a stronger arm, was way more accurate, could run far better, was tougher, and smarter than the tall dude.

I think there are some shorter qbs who are doing pretty good. So, it's not impossible.

Drew Brees is the first guy who comes to mind. However, he makes post-snap reads as well as anyone ever. He is a master of pre-snap reads. He throws w/great anticipation. He knows tendencies. He is extremely cerebral. He finds passing lanes to overcome his short stature. We've all seen him throwing on his toes. It's freaking crazy that he can do that. LOL

R. Wilson is extremely mobile. He escapes pressure w/his pocket presence and feet. He is also good at reading coverages. He is also clutch. Big time clutch. He makes plays out of nothing, time and time again.

Kyler Murray is really short. This guy is my surprise guy of the year. I think he is going to have a huge year. He still makes dumb decisions, but he is a playmaker. I saw something the other day, but he ran the ball around 11 times and only got hit twice. I probably have the exact numbers off, but the point is that he rarely gets hit. He runs out of bounds, slides, or scores before he is hit. His ability to escape pressure also allows him to make more throws outside of the typical 2.5 second window.

I don't think Baker will ever be confused w/Wilson or Murray as athletes. Thus, he would have to be more like Drew Brees. The problem is that he isn't reading coverages, throwing w/anticipation, and finding passing lanes like Brees.

He's going to have to find a niche or his days will be limited.

On the plus side, I do think he has a plus arm. Much better than Brees. I think he can be accurate when he trusts what he sees. I like his moxie and confidence.

It's crazy that you mentioned Garcia, because when Baker was in college, Garcia was the guy I said Baker could be if things turned out right. I never saw him as a Brees. Being Garcia would be more than good enough. I hope he gets there.

The more I think about it, I would consider benching Baker. Not as a punishment but as a wake up call. I'm not sure continuing to start and continuing to lose confidence will be something he can recover from. Let him watch Keenum play the position. Baker has never had anyone on his team that he can watch play quarterback. Think about that. He's had no example to follow.

I wouldn't bench him, Rish. I don't want to ruin his confidence.

I do wish that he would miss a game [not due to injury] just so we could see what the team would look like w/out him. If they look as bad as they have w/Baker, then maybe we need to make other changes. But, if the stars start to shine and the offense looks more cohesive, even w/a below average Case Keenum, then maybe it's time to start rethinking the qb position.

Dude. Not even a week ago you were talking about how people need to be patient, how Baker deserves another year after this one regardless of what happens.

Now we should bench him??

Can. not. make this stuff up lmao.

I was looking forward to "Dawgtalkers" once some football started so I could quit reading Trump, trump, trump, trump, trump... Pffft. It may have been better before lol.

I understand your frustration. I feel the same way when people say stuff about OBJ.

Hopefully, they both have huge games on Thursday.

I'm not saying permanently bench him. You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. Give him a chance to watch. His QB room has been Tyrod Taylor and a bunch of nobodies. I think he could at least learn something from Keenum. Taking a step back is not the worst thing in the world.

And I still believe what I said. Ride it out with Baker this year and next. Unless you are in a position to draft Lawrence. After this past Sunday, we might just be. Baker's issues had zero to do with playing the Ravens.

I am going to take grief for this, but I think this year is the year Baker proves himself one way or the other.

Just watching every single QB that beat us. He has to see how differently he plays than "smooth" QB's do. Jarring to watch. I might consider Keenum if BM looks thatcrappy Thursday.
A game plan that we stick with is a help;

I absolutely don't trust BM yet. And this messaging about forget that shambles of a game and soldier on sucks eggs. Don't ignore it; don't gloss it over and easily forget it, or "flush it" like OBJ says. These are snappy quotes, nice that they come so easily by two of the lousiest performances Sunday. Dwell on the wrong. If not, how do you learn from the mistakes? Succeed. Show us better than "we really practiced well" and "Look at the new unis!"

The placekicker did more to make players around him look better than OBJ and BM did.
Pound the Bengals.

Do you think he's so used to taking the deep drops to artificially give himself more time, more pocket as a PTSD from last year? Now there's no reason to do that.

My guess that his deep drops are tied to his lack of height. That would allow him a better opportunity to see over taller d-linemen.

The problem is that it two-fold in that it takes more time before the release and also OT's are taught to "guide" Edge rushers deep and outside the pocket.

If last year wasn't the wakeup call he needed, I HIGHLY doubt a benching will get the job done.

I do understand. It's just mind-blowing how this contrasts with your previous comments after one game against arguably the best team in the league... with no real practice time... with no preseason... with a new staff and playbook.

Listen, I get it - it's frustrating - and I'm as concerned as the next guy, but talk about over-reaction lol. Can we at least give it another week? We'll see tomorrow if "Baker's issues had zero to do with playing the Ravens."

I wouldn't give you grief over this one at all. But then again I don't have any idea as to who your comments pertain to. Year three is normally where players begin to blossom and show the greatest improvement. But there's been nothing normal about the situation Baker has had to face. Being on your fourth HC at the beginning of your third season is not anything close to normal.

So on a personal level, I would like to see him get another year after this one. But there has to be some limitations or caveat attached to that. It can't be a "no matter what" situation.

The one thing I'm sure we can both agree on is that we as fans have no say in the situation. The decision will certainly not rely on what we think or feel. So I think the fan base must take an objective look at the facts of the situation. And this is one thing I KNOW we agree on! If the season goes belly up, there will be a sacrificial lamb. At least one. We've seen this movie too many times before.

As an owner, Haslam will have to find a reason to assign blame. That's how he will sell the 2021 season to fans who have yet once again have been disappointed the year before. "It's a marketing world."

This FO and coaching staff are not married to Baker. With possibly the exception of DePodesta. They didn't draft him. He was not their choice or their pick. With the mass amount of coaching changes and FO changes, that ship has sailed in regards to making them the scapegoat. And with a second bad season in 2021, they would also be on the chopping block. So does anyone really think they will risk losing their careers by sticking with Baker if they don't believe he's the QB they can win with?

Then to complete the trifecta, we have the media. As we can see, they are already beginning to focus the attention on Baker. Fair or not, this is his third season and the microscope is on him.

This combination creates the perfect storm for Baker's exit in the event things don't get better. Before people go crazy about this post, this isn't something that expresses my wishes or desires. It's me stepping outside the fan box and looking at how things are done and seeing things from the perspective of ownership, the FO and the coaching staff.

In life we see that people will resort to desperate measures in desperate times. And if they stink up the city of Cleveland this season, something will have to give. Trying to look at this from an objective perspective, I see that something may very well be Baker.

It's mind blowing? LOL.

I was thinking of ways to fix Baker. You concentrated on the bench part and not the reason why. It occurred to me that he's never had a teammate he could watch and learn from. Is that such an alien concept?

In my mind I was only thinking about a few games. I have no interest in seeing Keenum quarterback this team, but if there could be some long-term benefits to Baker I'm all for it.

This sounds all very mind blowing, I know.

As for your other point, I have not changed my stance on Baker but I'm going to gripe and moan about his play and Stefanski's coaching until they give us something to be happy about. You give both another year unless you are staring at Trevor Lawrence, in which case you move on from Baker. That will also mean the wheels have fallen completely off and he's shown no improvement at all because we are picking number one.

I don't believe it's some mind blowing concept. It's just an idea that could prove to work in either direction. I lean on the side that it would only act to further erode his confidence. I don't believe it's impossible to consider the fact that it could help.

On my part I don't feel it would work that way. However, the season may get to the point where they see it as one of the only hopes they have left to try. We'll just have to wait and see.

Mind blowing may be a bit extreme. My rant was a product of more than what just you have said, so my apologies for sounding like an arse.

If I were to read what you just wrote above, five weeks from now... Browns at 2-4, Baker looking lost, I may agree.

It is waaay to early for that talk. There is no way the benefit would outweigh the harm right now... not just to Baker - to the entire team. We've got to let this new offense, these new coaches, this new season, breathe a little... before we move to any drastic measures.

Would there be benefits? I'm not so sure. If Keenum looks good, Baker may learn something, but what would he learn that coaches couldn't teach him by watching tape? That he sucks? If Keenum looks anywhere from average to crap: we have yet another QB controversy, another broken locker room, etc, etc...

Wouldn't it make much more sense to give this dude a fair shake? Like an eight game minimum fair shake before you add all these new layers of "Cleveland being Cleveland" crap to the recipe?

I don't disagree with what you said, but I have a slightly different take on it. It really sucks that he has had multiple coaches, GMs, and systems to contend with. I think he's been dealt a crappy hand in that regard. But I don't feel his issues have anything to do with that. His issues are much more cerebral, much more foundational. If you are confused every time you drop back once your first read is gone, I don't think the system matters.

I would expect to see the effect of multiple systems and coaches to play out in a much different fashion. Like being competitive every game but a handful of plays a game that misfire. Being slightly off on timing with receivers but making the correct read. Coming up short on a game winning drive because the timing is off but still being in a position to attempt a game winning drive.

That's not what we are seeing. We are seeing foundational breakdowns that are needed to play the position regardless of who is coaching you or what system they are running.

Could his head be spinning and that's just got him wound up? Sure, but that's why I thought a step back might help.

Nothing will make me happier if he comes out tomorrow, throws 3 TDs, and looks awesome in the process. I'm not anti-Baker. I'm anti-sucking.

j/c:

I would like to say that I have been impressed w/Baker's statements to the media this year. He isn't trashing anyone. He's saying the right things. Being respectful. I like that he learned from his mistakes. I also like that he is in much better shape this year. Hopefully, his game will improve, too. It was just one game in a new season w/a new coaching staff.

I see I've made your sig line. That part is impressive enough lol. Quick questions for anyone that can answer... Preface - I'm not some x's and o's guru like many here.

Wouldn't it take a QB a little while to work past his "first read" in a new offense?

In other words, running a new scheme, with new plays, I would think there would be a bit of a learning curve before you look comfortable. A first read is just that for a reason (right?). In a perfect world of well designed plays, crisp execution, and great play-calling a QB would never really have to look further. IF you truly could wipe the slate clean from 2019, would we be having this conversation right now? After one game?

If the answer is no, I think it's only fair to let this entire team play a few games before we even begin to pass judgement.

Let me back up and say - this is not to make excuses, Vers and others have voiced these concerns since the beginning, with good reason. Baker's weak spots have been made evident, if not exploited, and we all need to see constant progress. But making judgments after one game (in a new system), against elite talent, just don't make much sense to me.

This is a good question. I'm willing to discuss, as long as most of you will not allow the guys that resort to personal attacks come in and take over the conversation? I just came off the General Election thread and dayum.

So, if most of you will agree to stick to the topic and not allow this turn into another character attack thing, I'm all for trying to discuss it. I say this because it's a really good question and it could spark conversation that would allow people to learn. I just don't want to waste my time w/those who come running in screaming "agenda."

You know I'll play.

I'm curious to see how the route trees compare to the previous offenses that Baker has experienced. Are the routes contingent upon certain defensive looks? How long do some of the routes take to develop in Stefanski's offense vs the others?

These are all questions I have on this topic.

I couldn't resist.

Well, I'll just say what I think, because I am "wet behind the ears". For the sake of discussion, I'll act like I know what I'm talking about, go ahead and call me a loon if need be.

First, it seems like there would be a lot more to "going through progressions" than what we think as fans. And then, besides the mechanics of it, there's the necessary trust with your personnel.

There are pre-snap reads which would have a very direct influence on the post snap reads... That is to say, a pre-snap read may influence the likelihood of what will happen after the snap without being a dead giveaway.

There's an immediate reaction necessary if a QB has misdiagnosed the pre-snap read.

There are windows of many different types (time-wise and size-wise) depending on your personnel, the defense's personnel, and the scheme they're running.

Then there's the fact that, in many cases, these routes are adjusted, changed, etc, on the fly, depending on what the receivers see. (Wow, seems like it would take a while to get everyone on the same page!)

In a new offense - there are new plays, new terminology and a learning curve that goes beyond the QB himself.

Am I missing anything?

How would this be easy and why does it seem so much easier for some than others? Are they just smarter? Are the offenses designed better? A little of both?

I'll shut up now lol.

No bro, those are all good points and you even brought up some that I wasn't thinking about. I think that was an excellent post.

I'm just saying that if I invest the time in order to properly try and address your question, I don't want the rest of the board to allow certain posters to derail the discussion w/their personal attacks. I think we all know who those posters are.

I say this because your question is a great one and it got me to debating w/myself. That is what great questions do. Thus, it will take some time and thought to adequately discuss this. I will gladly embark on that and I do not have all the answers, but I don't want to have this conversation derailed by guys who continually think making things personal is a way to win debates.

Tell me if you guys want to stifle the personal attack narrative and just talk football. Or not.

If anybody tries to derail the convo, I'll punch them square in the face.

LOL................okay bro. I will wait until tomorrow to reply to your question. It's a really good one that I think has complex answers and I am not even sure if I am right in what I'm thinking. I worked more than I should have today and I'm really tired. Got a bit of a buzz on too, mainly because I am so exhausted.

I will try and answer your question. It might take some back and forth among multiple posters to get there. But, it really was a good question. You got me thinking, that is for sure.

Interesting perspective.

fate...IT IS GAME ONE!

Totally different NFL.

Just look at those pass attempt comparisons!

This is not not being able to read coverage. This is being blind.

4 open recievers and one for a huge gain if he just sets and throws..that DB is dead on that deep out. And baker threw it 10 yards out of bounds to the right side

I wonder if Baker is only focused on the deep route and does not even see the open WRs underneath causing him to throw it away?

I dunno. I think it is as simple as it looks. He was clearly looking at the open deep route, and had to have seen the 2 open receivers in front of him. He instead flipped to the other side of the field and chucked it.

If he had time to flip and chuck it away, wouldn't he also have time to set his feet in the direction he was already pointed?

Probably. I'm still in the 'Denial' stage of the 5 Stages of Grief.

Probably move on to anger after tonight.

Slobeski is a tool. He's the same guy who posted the scripted play stats w/out any context recently.

Anyone who has played football knows that that play should have resulted in an easy completion.

Ha. I thought it was as simple as it looked as well.

He was staring right at the wide open guys.

Here's more Sobleski for you!



Brent Sobleski
@brentsobleski
No pressure. Easy read. Result? PBU by LB clearly in position to make the play.

That pocket is a thing of beauty, as well.

I don't want to analyze too much into it, as I've never played QB... but it looks like it would've actually been faster/easier to set his feet and take a shot at any of those guys he was looking at rather than flip to the other side of the field.

This is why Mayfield is broken.

The out has probably been his best throw since he's been in the league. Quick decision, outside away from DL traffic, and he's great at timing on those throws.

The fact he's not taking that makes me think his head is swimming.

Zero confidence.

Not good.

I'm not going to post the article because it is about possibly benching Baker and I think that it is too early for such a thing, but in the article, it was said that Baker had more time in the pocket than any other qb in week one. Does anyone know if that is true or not?

I read that somewhere as well ... or maybe just that he had WAY more time than the average game last year.

It sucks. Every indication (including our own eyes) shows that Baker sucks. He simply can’t read coverage and that’s a fatal flaw.

On to the next IMO

I'm pretty sure that before the season started I read that you wanted to give Baker a fair shake this year? I think we have to wait the next few weeks to see what he can do. It's entirely feasible that he lights it up the next 2 games ... that wouldn't be the proof we need that he's "got it" ... and he could then struggle against Dallas who are much better, Colts? who knows, and he might STINK when we play Pit because their D is really good also. If he stinks in ALL those games, I'll be ready to move on. But not yet.

Yeah I mean, he's on his FOURTH head coach in less than THREE years. That's gotta be at least tied for a record.

Whenever I start a new job I need like 3 months to get acclimated, can't even imagine if my boss changed twice a year.

I'm willing to wait until mid season. If we're 3-5 or worse and Baker is still stinking it up, then I'll be alarmed.

I just have to ask. What does that have to do with scanning the field looking for an open WR? I mean isn't that what all NFL QB's are supposed to do no matter the system they play in?

I'm willing to wait and see myself just like you are. But at the same time it doesn't mean some of these are not legitimate questions.

Maybe. I really don't know the answer to that. I can tell you a couple of things I do know and we can go from there if people are interested.

--Route trees come w/options. Depending on the coverage, a receiver can make a choice whether to break the route off or continue.

--Once the ball is snapped, it's really chaotic. The corners might give you a look like they are in Cover 1, man press and then all of a sudden retreat and play Cover 3. Linebackers can drop into the intermediate middle zone when you thought that area of the field would be open during your pre-snap reads. For guys like you and me, all we would see is one huge blur. Pros have to process all this information in 2.5 seconds or less.

--Fate, reading coverages has always been about recognizing where the defenders are. You have keys and the safeties are almost always in those keys. Yet, you can't stare at the defender or you get tunnel vision. Instead, you have to look for passing lanes while seeing your key[s] in that line of vision. Typically, you have a route tree that includes 3 receivers in a certain side of the field. They are your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd reads. Thus, when you drop back, you have your vision focused on that particular area. The great Sid Gillman used to refer to this as "reading the square." Thus the coverage dictates which read is the correct read. The speed of NFL players is crazy, so you better not be late. Often times, either the qb or receiver will be too early or too late. We have all heard of rhythm throws and that is what I'm referring to. Also, rhythm throws involves the qb ready to release the ball as his plant foot hits the last step in this 3, 5, and 7 step drops. [Sidenote: do you remember me mentioning about how deep Baker's drops were in game one? That can disrupt the rhythm or timing of a play.]

I'll stop there. There is a lot more to discuss. We'll see if people are interested or not.

Btw....I'm not going to proofread this, so I apologize for any errors.

Myka - yes it is a record for any NFL QB starting his career with the same team. They mentioned that on Sunday pre-game.

Pit - there are real and legit concerns. It comes on the back of a bad season of poor prep, conditioning and play last year.

That said - what does a constant change at HC and play calling have to do with how fast Baker progresses through his reads? Probably not having a ton of confidence and having to think about what he's seeing and how it fits KS's O and philosophy, which has to be different that Haley's which was different than Freddie's "half court" offense, which was evidently different than HC/OC Freddie ... I mean that's not to say he's going to get faster, but I think having to engage the brain to think about something instead of having repeated it enough time that it's "automatic" has to have a restricting/limiting factor? jmo. *Assuming Baker plays better in weeks 2 & 3 ... I can see more wobbles playing some of the better teams but by week 8 or 9 we might have a much better idea of how fast Baker can process what he sees post snap.

I think every NFL HC, in every scheme, on every team tries their best to teach and work with a QB going through his reads. It's something that should be common practice. Not something he wasn't working on since he first began his rookie year.

I certainly agree that there have been distractions and he has been through a lot of coaching changes. I also agree that covid has put major constraints on preparing the entire team. But just like a WR should be able to catch the ball and run routes, an NFL QB should be accurate and going through his progressions in his third season at the position.

It's a fundamental part of being an NFL QB. It just seems odd to me how many here will pile on a WR for not doing the basics while making excuses for Mayfield not doing the basics. And all with the same coaching over the same time period.

I think most posters think Baker needs to improve - accuracy, reading the D, reading the plays as they develop and going through progressions to find the open guy. I think most think OBJ has underwhelmed since he's been here. It's not either or. It's not one causing the problem for the other. I think they both need to step up. I give OBJ props for playing through injury last year, getting 1,000 yards - but he dropped balls and didn't know where to line up.... as someone said he's immature. Oddly Baker *seems* to have matured some - but I'll wait to see 16 games of "maturity" under his belt before crowning him!

Here's to a good game tonight and progress from both.

Maybe so, but I think his mind is made up pre-snap. Locks on and waits. Going through his progressions is a laugh. Like this example, he has chosen to throw into multiple coverage windows and ignores open out and seam receivers. I thought the TE routes and a commitment to a bully running game would help him out. Either he is failing to choose well or the choice has been made for him to force it to someone, explaining the waiting and taking sacks again.

Based on nothing but my own impressions, Baker degrades more and gets worse the later in the game we go, especially when behind. Consider how that can be helped.

Thanks for posting. Those are the things that I have been trying to point out. The deep drops. Being late. Not being quick w/his reads/progressions.

I think that video provided some visual evidence of what I was talking to Fate about in my last post. I wish I had the ability to post videos when I am trying to discuss things. It helps make things a lot more clear.

This makes me wonder what Baker is being taught and whether Stefanski and staff have the experience to teach it.

The only thing I am not sold on - when he says all the OL are "securing" the rushers and Baker is bailing ... the OLB who is rushing Baker's right is most definitely not secure. Baker needs to step up into the pocket and the OLB will not get to him, but if he stands pat, I think the OLB gets to him ... but there is a window to throw to Landry for sure, I can't see OBJ on his route.

In addition to improved fundamentals, designed rollouts would dramatically help Baker Mayfield. According to
@NextGenStats
, since 2018, Mayfield completes 72.2% of his passes on designed rollouts as compared to 64.4% from the pocket.

https://twitter.com/RealTannenbaum/status/1306719472787632128

Van Pelt was stressing his footwork the moment he was hired. In Bakers rookie year, if you go back and look, when his back foot hit, he fired the ball. He is not doing that anymore. I don't think it is a coaching problem, I think it is Baker not taking it good.

I talked about this in the Post Game thread, but I think Baker played very well last night. He looked much more confident. His accuracy was very, very good. He was hitting guys in stride last night. He threw the ball very well on the run, and I think Stefanski was smart to roll him out.

Most of his throws were one-read, but I do remember one play in particular when he was rolling left and he went from progression number 1 [deeper option] to the second read. That was encouraging.

I also liked his interview w/the NFL Network crew after the game. He said something about it be "over" when the Colleen Wolf asked him how he felt when he woke up. He said all the right things. He's been much better this entire summer and in the early season regarding his comments to the media. Glad to see the maturity.

I liked his interview at the end as well. I wanted to go to sleep haha, but wanted to listen to him. Way more humble than he probably wanted to be LOL, but I liked it

Ryan Clark today called Mayfield a front runner. He said he didn't mean it in a derogatory fashion, but he really did.

He said the same thing I've been saying about Mayfield. He's great when things are going great and he's piling on, usually against bad teams. But he's not so good when he's down or there's adversity, usually against good teams.

And I disagree with with you guys about his post game interview with the NFL Network. When he said "the Mayfield household doesn't forget" I thought that same immaturity was creeping back up. I wish he would have said "I deserved to be criticized last week because I played like crap." He was being ridiculed for that comment on shows this morning. It's false bravado and fake tough guy stuff.

I think last night was a good step and a win feels very good, but Baker still has to play his best against the best. He needs to shed the frontrunner label.

Baker is good playing against bad teams, but then most of the QBs are.

Last night he played OK, considering the Bengals D is so bad, and limited his mistakes to 2. One rookie inexcusable intentional grounding penalty, and the 3th Quarter INT.

He is clearly the worst QB in the division, which is something most people are forgetting, and Joe and Lamar are young... rookie JB is already better than Baker.

I think people need to pump the brakes on this.

Baker was the next coming less than 2 seasons ago.

Burrow has looked composed. Like Baker, he's playing with house money. I think his arm is average and at some point he's going to have to start taking shots down the field.

He's the new shiny toy in the NFL like Baker was 2 seasons ago and look where we are now.

I did not like the Mayfield household comment, but overall, I thought he did a great job. He's been a lot better w/his media comments this year.

And I get that the Bengals are bad, but he was very accurate and got rid of the ball quickly. I saw progress.

I recall that play. I believe Baker initially was looking downfield to OBJ and came back to either Hooper or Bryant.

Just posted in 'Post Game' - I believe the play where he throws to OBJ over the middle and OBJ jukes and spins to a 1st down (Hooper got held on the play) - pretty sure OBJ was his third read.

This play you are talking about (I think) is actually the first play of the game where Baker rolls left ... looks deep, dumps off for 9 or 10 years to the guy hitting the sideline underneath. It's a good throw as the guy underneath has a guy half a step behind him.

No joke, I’m encouraged that YOU are encouraged.

jc -

I'm not a Doug Gottlieb fan, and he's generally been very critical of Baker because he's good friends with Cowherd, but I thought this was a really good take.

That is an awful take. I don't agree with much of what he's saying.


Oh by the way, Baker was the highest rated QB of week 2 and he's a top 10 rated QB overall for the season.

I bet he ate his words like many will continue to do so.

(Burrow isn't better than Baker)

I agree that Burrow is not better than Baker.

As for eating words, I don't think it was that kind of take. He wasn't overly critical of Baker.

Also, no one is eating words after week 2.

The performance against Cinci might not mean Baker has proven he is the answer as a franchise QB.... but there were a lot of posters that pronounced him a bust after week 1. Unequivocally. I know the Cinci D is not great - but there are a lot of QB's in the NFL that would not be capable of having the level of game Baker had against Cinci. . . . Let's hope the maturation and progress continues.

Baker is better for now. Burrow looked pretty good out there and it was his second game. I think Baker could be elite, but Burrow might get there too, and maybe sooner.

IIRC. Baker won his first game, a big comeback vs the Jets where he didn't start,

and he may have won his 2nd game he played too.

We know Baker Won vs. Burrow, yesterday- or a couple days ago now,

and Burrow lost his opener too. 0-2 to start his career.

So...

Yes.

Rookie Joe Burrow couldn't sniff Rookie Baker Mayfield's underpants. Burrow isn't in the same zipcode as Rookie Baker. Baker took an 0-16 team to 7 wins. Let that sink in.

What's actually humorous to me are those who took Baker's earlier comments and spun them as immature while now they're taking his recent comments and spinning them that's he's matured. Please stop.

We drafted a flag-planting, crotch grabbing quarterback. We need that guy to return. I want my Baker Mayfield back. I want to win, not "look good" and lose.

It didn't take any spin.

You missed it.

I think you missed the fact we actually won last week.

these new few games are gonna say a lot about this team.

Eh.... I don't think it comes down to "the next few games". In a new system I think he'll get more rope than that. But who knows?

I do think it will boil down to this season though and maybe even by mid season or a little later. Now I don't want people to think that's my opinion of what "should happen". I just think the odds are high that it will.

And for exactly some of the reasons Cowherd stated. These guys didn't draft him. They don't have to make excuses for themselves as to whay he's here or why he should stay.

One thing I've learned after watching this game for so many years is that a new regime isn't going to lose their jobs losing games with the prior regimes QB. They'll use their own QB before they sit back and watch the ship sink.

I wouldn't discount any of that at all. These guys don't strike me as your typical egomaniac front office/coaching types; they're all mega-intelligent and only really care about whether or not the player will work.

To that end, I don't think bottom-line W-L results in 2020 are what will determine his future, but instead whether or not they see from him that he is grasping and executing the way they expect him to. I think that as long as he is showing a knowledgeable command of the offense and what he is supposed to be doing in it, then he is here for the long haul.

Yeah, I don't feel it will hinge on the W/L column but on Mayfield himself.

A couple of thoughts:

--Cowherd is being a bit dramatic.

--The stats on Baker under pressure are meaningful. Can't hide from those facts.

--I get that Dorsey drafted Baker, but Berry and Depo were there at the time and it was said that the entire organization was unanimous in wanting Baker. So, I'm not so sure the statement about Berry not drafting Baker applies as much as in other situations. Now, Berry and Depo might not have wanted Baker and they just went along w/the narrative to present a united front, but that's not a given.

--Personally, I think Baker will get the entire season unless he is totally stinking the joint up. He stunk last year. He stunk game one. But, he played well last week. As long as he has some good games, I figure that he gets the entire season. I could be wrong, but that is the way I see it.

Absolutely ... I have tried to stay away from all the Baker Drama, but he has shown enough to get an extended look and a fair evaluation... The rookie year was memorable, last year forgettable. I wasn’t to see how he performs under a stable coaching situation..

Good points about the FO then and now. IIRC, I thought it was mentioned at the time that Baker also hit it out of the park on the analytic side of things too?

Sometimes I wonder if we as a collective have over simplified the conversation about whether or not Baker will show he is "the guy". I think the conversation tends to focus too much on the extremes: is he going to take us tot he Super Bowl or are we destined for more double digit loss seasons? Clearly we hope for the former, but what if Baker turns out to be just.. ok?

If we go double digit losses with a large part of that being his performance its obviously easier to cut ties with him. But what if he ends up ono a Andy Dalton-sque trajectory... he can get us in the playoff hunt most years but just can't get us over the hump? What would we do then?

Good points and questions.

I am at the point where I give the guy the entire year unless he absolutely bombs. I don't think that will happen, though. I think he deserves a fair shot to prove he is the guy.

I have kinda given up on him being this great qb that so many thought he was. But, I don't think he has to be great. We have a ton of talent on O. Our skill guys are awesome and our OL is looking amazing. Baker just has to be competent. Thus, I think he will do well enough to keep the job all year.

The big question for me is whether or not they go all-in on the second contract? That's a much different question on him getting this entire year or being replaced.

We? I don't know, I can't speak for everyone. Me personally? I'd be torn -- torn between shooting myself in the face and having my wife run me over in the driveway.

He can't be great until he puts the team on his back when it matters most and delivers some wins against the best competition.

I think he for sure can be that next tier down absolutely. With the right pieces that can be championship level.

I read where he is getting similar coaching now as he was in 2018.

I expect a big game on Sunday.

Baker is surrounded by a ton of talent right now, there is really no excuses at this point for failing the team. His interception last week was one of the worst QB decisions that I have probably seen in a long time and that is concerning because it has nothing to do with migrating to a new system. I would be shocked to see many mediocre college QBs make that same decision, so I am sure that Stefanski and Barry are wondering about what is between Baker's ears after that throw. If Baker can't understand situational football by this point, then he is simply not capable of grasping it and the organization will have to move on.

Interesting take.

JC...

I agree on a lot of everyone's opinion on Baker...My fear is his ceiling may be that of maybe Andy Dalton...Maybe Ryan Fitzpatrick is a closer comp? His game needs to keep improving, because he has on hand I think perhaps the best supporting cast as far as weapons and protection are concerned.

Baker has demonstrably more arm strength and arm talent than Dalton...Dalton played for one head coach his entire time in Cincy until/except last year when they foolishly and essentially discarded/gave-up-on him.

The comparisons to Dalton and Fitzpatrick are way off base IMO.

Not many Qbs of Baker's size have his arm talent. He's a difficult QB to draw comparisons to.

I agree.

If Baker can just figure some things out between the ears, we will have something.

If he can learn from his mistakes, he will be golden. just want to make sure he gets what good he can from negative episodes. Turn it all loose!

Unleash the Elf!

I'm sure tru will clarify if needed but I think the comparison to Dalton and Fitzpatrick isn't a comparison of QB ability rather than comparing Baker to 2 guys who can carry a team through a season, but just can't quite get them beyond Week 17.

I would say you are correct. Tru is a straight shooter who doesn't play agenda games. He is one of our better football minds on this board. I don't think he was comparing arm strength and other physical characteristics. Probably, just general overall effectiveness.

On the other hand, I can see why WSU took it that way and I am not bad-mouthing him, either.

Agreed on both counts.

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused...

As others have stated (thank you Devil and Vers...I appreciate it, as always) My thinking was more Baker may be more than serviceable, but never elite or upper echelon. Dalton/Fitzpatrick comp was more based on that, and I think all can agree both those guys could get the job done, but then again won't ever be in the same breath as Brady/Brees (Baker had a lot of Drew Brees comps, coming to the NFL) And trust me I really hope I am wrong, last thing I want for OUR franchise is having to resort to drafting another QB at the top of the draft. I think he still has time to turn around, and I hope he does (as his supporting cast is perhaps the best in the league)

I can't put all the blame on Baker...I think the regression shown has been with the constant shuffling of philosophies, coaching, etc Continuity breeds consistency, and consistency breeds continuity...As an organization we never either, so obviously Baker probably won't have it as well.


But my hopes are that we found the right FO for this team...the right coach for this team...and the right QB for this team. I cannot wait for the day that we here, can sit and brag about our team...as it has been far too long for us all.

I just want to say that I certainly didn't take offense to your Baker comparison...I was just throwing my thoughts out there.

Reading thru some of these posts it's nice to see that most have limited the bashing of Baker. I'm thankful for that.

I understand the mild concerns. It would difficult for any quarterback to survive what Baker's endured his first 2+ season's. It's unprecedented. I'm confident Baker will come out off this on top. I'm sure no one thought Brady would be elite in his first couple of seasons either.

Browns fans have been patient but need to remain patient, changing quarterbacks and blowing this up, as has been much of the talk in recent years, would be bad. Stay the course, we are in great shape.

I agree but this will be dependent on Baker, number of wins, Stefanski, and Berry.

We need to have enough wins so that Stefanski and Berry aren't seduced by someone in the draft because it will be their guy.

Stay the course. Develop Baker.

Was listening to Ken Carmen this morning. Also watched a YouTube clip of Dan Orlovsky's take on Baker's play yesterday.

On the Ken Carmen show most callers were acting like we lost the game. People are very upset that we are winning and it's not because of Baker. The town has been starved for a franchise QB for so long that anything less is a failure. Orlovsky basically commented on how Baker is being asked to run a system, not be a quarterback.

However on both shows they all agreed it doesn't have to be that way forever. Baker won't always just be running a system. He will eventually be quarterbacking it if you develop and build it up the right way.

Baker is two years behind because of the upheaval with coaching staffs and FOs. Hopefully his trajectory is like Josh Allen's. No one was wrong about Josh Allen. He came into the league with an incredible physical skill set and a bunch of question marks around quarterbacking, all of which were legit. But the Bills have brought him up and developed him the right way. Unfortunately the Browns just weren't as stable Baker's first two years.

I am going to be uber critical of Baker's play every week, but I hope I don't lose sight of this. I hope Stefanski and Berry don't either.

I don't know that we're in danger of seeing this. Baker was one of the reasons why coaches wanted to come here. The quarterback position wasn't seen as a liability. To give up on a guy as talented as Baker and have to develop another quarterback could be detrimental. This team is meant to win and win big within the next couple of years.

No issues whatsoever, sorry if it was confusing (when I reread it, I can see why it seemed that way as well) Hopefully he keeps on improving, and we can finally all enjoy a successful team.

Neither Allen nor Jackson would be doing here what they're doing elsewhere.

This is the biggest problem for fans. They just see a quarterback we "passed over" doing really well while we struggle with the one we drafted. I can assure you had we drafted Lamar Jackson he wouldn't have been the league MVP last season.

I'd hate to bring it up again because of the consequences, but imagine where we'd be had we hired McDermott to coach instead of Hue.

I hope you're right.

On the first point I quoted you on - that's just totally whack as far as I am concerned. Fans should be happy we are winning. I prefer that to losing while watching a great QB performance.

On the second point, I agree 100%. Stefanski is coaching Baker to be a QB that plays the offensive system... I think it's what any ROOKIE in a well run stable franchise would have to do ... and then from there, once the system is grasped and skills/chemistry/timing/knowledge/instincts have developed and refined .... you let the young QB cut loose a little more. Just me but I think this is what Baker has clearly lacked since joingin the NFL ... Just me, but I think some of the slowness in Baker's progressions is because he is being asked to THINK first and foremost. As long as we are winning and Baker isn't throwing Ints and costing us the game I think in the LONG TERM this will aid him and the Browns.

Lack of processing speed IS absolutely a concern - and I agree with others that have said that this attribute is somewhat innate. But I also think that any ability Baker has in processing post snap along with going through progressions has been hampered tremendously by being on his 4th HC in 3 years and by what Stefanski is trying force him to do now, which is long term good for Baker but doesn't let Baker free wheel and try to "ball".

But then I am optimistic on Baker's ceiling being higher than what we currently see. I actually want him to succeed and STAY with the team. Not everyone shares that perspective.

If Baker stays with the team it means both he and the team will be doing well. It means we will be making progress. I really don't feel there are any Browns fans that are actually rooting for it to turn out differently than that.

I love that from every indication we see and from what he has, and in some cases hasn't said, that he is even more dedicated to the game than ever. I think we are seeing signs of that dedication on the field.

We've seen posters state that their #1 loyalty is the Buckeyes and they can't wait till Baker is gone. I think there are a handful of posters whose evaluation of Baker and desire for him to succeed are influenced by "Baker the Person"

I think the biggest problem is that Baker thrived in a system that was extremely simplified and geared toward his strengths, but wasn't geared toward sustainable success in the NFL. We became used to his success in that system and expected that out of him on a consistent basis in 2019, and again this year.

Since then, Freddie implemented a more NFL pro-style of offense, which caused more of a learning curve with Baker. There was the double-edged sword of Baker needing to evolve into the system while Freddie was overwhelmed with calling plays and sticking to his game plan. What's more is that Lindley was a bad QB coach. Baker definitely had his own issues in adapting to this style, but this whole dynamic stunted his growth as well, and shunted his confidence.

Now Baker is in yet another system. He has shown some great throws and displays a great arm. He also has shown some increase in his ability to read through progressions, but also struggles very much with it at times. He definitely needs to show improvement in certain areas to make him an elite, NFL-style QB. If that is slow and gradual, I'm fine with it, as long as it is continuous overall improvement.

I really hope things slow down for him on the field, to use the terminology that Vers did.

I try to ignore you, but man..........you are constantly telling lies.

Show us proof of this:

[1] I'm not trolling through posts to verify this. But you've insinuated this ... does it really matter that much? I guess I'll give it 3 or 4 minutes tonight.

[2] Isn't it telling that you refute that you've indicated that your number 1 loyalty is the Buckeyes but pass on the point that you can't wait till Baker has gone from the team?

Have you ever considered just voicing your own opinions and allowing others to voice theirs? Why does everything have to be a war? Baker will not be a better player just because you convince others that I don't like him. I have absolutely nothing to do w/his performance. Grow the hell up.

Btw---I am not responding to you again because it will only result in another war that will ruin yet another thread. But, I never said that thing about the Buckeyes. It's something you and another poster made up.

For being in his third season, man he definitely does not trust his eyes. With the success of Josh Allen right now I can definitely see why people would say we made the wrong pick, but let's be serious for a second:

The Bills are actually a very solid organization right now as a whole. We have had what 3? 4? Regime changes since McDermott was hired in Buffalo. Allen has had the same staff and the same system more or less his entire career to this point. I don't think Allen would be what he is here, I just don't.

Ever started a new job and it just seems like you can't possibly remember all this crap? Then 3 years later you throw away that notepad because it's all second nature now? Baker has started a new job every off-season.

I agree with the patience comment, but that's contingent on Baker showing something over the course of the season. I know we argue the "he doesn't know the system yet and has to think too much out there" theory, but let's just say we take that assumption... that would mean he should show tangible improvement as he gets more and more comfy within the system and with his receivers. If he's still not trusting his eyes, struggling with staring down receivers, etc at the end of the year like he sometimes does now, I can tell you I'll be impatient. If he's doing all of that, and we're in position to make a play for a legit QB prospect (which means the season went really poorly), then I'll be very impatient.

Next 3 games are huge.

We could be staring at 2-4.

The colts game is huge IMO. That can save us at 3-3 and then we have a stretch of 50/50 type games

I saw a thing earlier today that we have the 4th easiest remaining schedule in the league. So, that's good.

Well, Baker did make the last HC lose his job... And its not the HC job to make sure he is in top form when he starts teh season.

3 years in the league and Baker still can't figure out when he is out of the pocket or where his O is lining up...

Baker has no talent, he has no work ethic, and he has no drive anymore... he is just a meh QB...

What’s this?

2-4?

I concede nothing until I have to.
Which is often, lol.

The Cowboys are average. we can beat Dallas... let’s see if they’re capable of stopping our ground game for 60 minutes.

I just re-watched the game was going to comment on the high number of accurate passes Baker made ... he was not perfect but his struggles came when under pressure. That seems like something that is still a hangover from last year when I think he was statistically worst in the NFL under pressure ... he's running when he doesn't need to and the accuracy is way off. The near interception where OBJ made a great play to swat the ball down was on a play where Baker was under pressure, as were the other bad throws. But man he threw the ball really nicely on when it was on time/in time/decent protection.

The replay was on the Sunday Ticket app so they don't show slow mo replays ... last week I saw at least 3 plays where Baker went to a 2nd or 3rd read, I couldn't tell from the replay today if he made any progressions, but it was a decent performance.

All Qb's can play great without pressure... Its how you play under pressure that defines a great QB. Baker is the least athletic player on the field, and his football IQ is not very high...

No - they most 100% definitely don't and can't.

I agree that playing great under pressure might separate the good from the great. But the book isn't written on Baker. If you don't want to consider his 4th HC in his 3rd year (4th HC in essentially 2 years and 3 games) a factor worthy of consideration in this discussion ... we can disagree. If you don't think the CV-19 impacted training camp is a limiting factor ... we can disagree. And if you don't think a new O and no pre-season games is a factor ... we can disagree. Lots to like about what Baker has done this year, and lots to improve in order for him to be a legit franchise QB.

Jc

I get the argument that as long as we’re winning, it doesn’t matter if baker mayfield turns out to be a game manager.

That’s cool, and I agree. But just like Devil made the very credible point that OBJ can be both a distraction and a good teammate, that same logic says that while we can win a title with a game manager, you don’t draft a game manager #1 overall.

And i openly admit that the new game manager label on baker upsets me because we could’ve had Wentz, Watson, Mahomes, Jackson, or Allen as our QB. But instead, we drafted a guy #1 overall that just really isn’t special. He’s short, not athletic, doesn’t have the strongest if arm, and doesn’t even have great pocket awareness.

And what sucks even more is that he USED to have great pocket awareness. it completely disappeared, and I don’t know why.

He’s bailing out of clean pockets. We all watched him run into a sack yesterday, just like he did against the rams last season.

Look, we have great talent around him and a good OL. So baker should be good enough to lead us to the playoffs, and I will always take that.

But I just can’t help but watch the QBs who are actually special that we damn well could’ve drafted and dream about how much better our team would’ve been.

So it’s cool he’s our QB. But Kirk cousins was drafted in the 4th round for a reason. Case Keenum went undrafted for a reason.

I just don’t believe he’s a #1 overall kind of QB.

Did you think he was a #1 overall talent in 2018?

Maybe he can recapture that.

That guy's voice sounds like someone that has people locked up in his basement!

Because of his accuracy in college, yes.

But you know who I wanted #1 overall that draft.

I guess it doesn’t matter anymore, but I do wonder if he’s about to get the Dak Prescott treatment by the FO.

Are the 3 easier schedules teams that get to play the Jets twice?

LOL...the Jets are really pathetic. But, it went Dallas, Cinci, Can't Remember, Cleveland, and I think Baltimore.

Swish, here are some of my thoughts on Baker, the game manager, and your post.

--I don't think his pocket presence was ever very good in the pros. He looks good when his first read is open. He often loses his downfield sight lines when he has to go to his second or third target. Btw...I haven't seen the plays where he went to his third read multiple times against the Bengals. I could be wrong, but I didn't see those plays. I think Baker can improve in this area. He needs to learn to step-up in the pocket and/or take a step or two in either direction. Dropping his head and running in those little loops or circles are a no-no, because he is not the runner that guys like Russ, Lamar, Rodgers, Mahomes, Cam, etc are. I said it after his rookie year, I wish he would spend time w/a qb coach in the off-season working on his footwork. That would help both in the pocket and w/his throwing motion. I know he worked on some pre-snap footwork things that Van Pelt came up with, but I'm talking about post-snap things.

--Game managers are fine, I guess. But, will Baker be the kind of qb who doesn't throw picks? I don't know the answer to that.

--My biggest thing is that to be a really good team, you need your qb to make plays in big moments of the game. Baker's inability to read post-snap coverages makes me wonder if he will ever be that guy. I am not ruling it out, but I just haven't seen it yet. And we really haven't seen him making plays in clutch situations. Thus far, it seems like Baker does well when we are rolling against lesser teams. He has not been at his best when we are playing good teams and we needed him to make plays in big moments.

--My bottom line is that this year should answer a lot of questions. He might succeed in the areas I mentioned above. I just haven't seen him do it yet.

I think the type of pressure also plays a role. If a D is trying to blitz you to death, that's exploitable. Finding the open guy (because there is one coming from the area of the blitzer) is much easier than when a teams front is just naturally getting pressure via their front.

Baker is the best rated QB in the AFC.

https://twitter.com/CLE_SPORTS_FANS/status/1310983798943866880

AFC North QB ratings through week 3:

Baker Mayfield - 75.6
Lamar Jackson - 69.7
Joe Burrow - 51.6
Big Ben - 51

It's early and a lot can happen - plus we've just played two pretty poor teams - But damn, I coulda sworn I've seen multiple posters state as fact that Baker is already the 4th best QB in the AFC North.

QBR and QB rating are not the same thing.

Not to mention that we essentially just played the equivalent of our 3rd Preseason game. Hopefully we keep showing progression and development of talent - something we've singularly failed to do for so so so many years. Early indications are that Stefanski is destined to be a good HC - even if he stumbles and falls in Cleveland, he looks like he belongs in the NFL as HC from the little we've seen so far. jmo

Pitts has played two pretty poor teams, and one wonders who Houston is this year. That is yet to be determined.

No kidding huh, they are a real head scratcher. Unlike Wentz who seems to be a real ? as to how good he is, Watson seems legitimately very good. I think it's their HC that is holding them back ... but we'll see.

j/c:

For some perspective:

Baker is ranked 27th out of 35 ranked qbs by PFF.

this was after the Ravens game Game #1.

Note it was the first year of our O (again) with a Pandemic environment. It comes as no surprise that the O would be off.

What I like is that in game 2 there was improvement and then game 3 even better execution.

We are in the tip of an Iceberg regarding the O and Baker's comfort level within the new system.

Also the Ravens are one of the best NFL Defense who has worked together for years.

We are looking good.

Eh, we'll never know, but what if we had hired Stefanski in 2019? Surely we could unanimously agree we'd be way ahead of where we are now. To quote a great philosopher: "It is what it is."

Here's to continued progress.