DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Comparisons

He didn't say you were name calling. He asked for names of the people who don't respect Baker.

You're reading it wrong.
The logic is perfectly sound because it is pointing out that just because you start out poorly or slowly doesn't mean that is your end result. Brees is the perfect example of that.

And that was really the whole point of quoting Brees and all those other players first 3 years. Not all of them played more than 8-9 games a season in their first 3 years ... some sat, some had 3-4 starts and I ignored those seasons (although clearly a benefit to a rookie QB to sit and learn).

Past performance of other QB's doesn't guarantee success or failure of Baker... But reviewing past performance (and progress) of other QB's provides a good argument to suggest we shouldn't think Baker "today" is going to be the finished product. I have the same high regard for Brees that Vers has ... but I am 100% certain that Bree's processing speed and ability to diagnose the go to receiver based on post snap D was not as developed and fast in his 2nd and 3rd year as it is now.

I was at the games while Brees was in San Diego. He was hampered by an offensive line, and I do not think that Norv was running the offense.

When Rivers was drafted Brees spent the off season with LT working on core training. He was stronger and better.

Marty despised him after year 2. Too many int's.

I don't see the fascination with comparisons. Any comparison can be both scrutinized and verified to various degrees.

Baker is Baker. His sample size, to this point, provides both promise and confusion as he's regressed in some areas and excelled in others.

There is no question he has all the tools needed to be an NFL QB from the waistband to the neck. His athleticism is adequate to fill the position. He will never be a threat to run on NFL defenses but it is in no means necessary as a prerequisite for an NFL QB.

The jury's still out on whether he has the mental capacity to be an elite QB (the next step beyond having the physical skills required)... We've seen nearly two season of evidence that he both does and doesn't on any given Sunday. Seeing that he has in the past tells us that he can again in the future. To be blunt -- I'm not worried about it. I think he is the type of person that will work his butt off until he is a finished project.

I think (nearly) the only reason he is compared to Brees is because of his size.

My only comparison would be Brett Favre -- similar arm, similar physical attributes, similar moxie and leadership values, throws well on the move, gunslinger mentality.

Bob Griese.

Things get turned around on here and become personal. Thanks to ref for deleting a couple of those posts. I am going to go back to the comment that sparked the conversation and I'll try harder to explain what I was talking about.



I originally said that was an absurd comparison. I should not have done that. Sorry super. You're a good dude and I should not have used the word "absurd." You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree w/it and I will try to explain why.

When I compare players at any position, I don't look at stats at particular points of their careers as my main measuring tool. I might look at them, but I don't put too much weight into them. Instead, I focus on things like skill set, strengths, weaknesses, athleticism, intelligence, drive, etc.

I think Brees has some attributes that Baker has not displayed. Things like reading coverages pre and post-snap. Throwing w/anticipation. Staying calm in the pocket. Keeping his head up when pressured. Stepping up in the pocket and seeing downfield. Moving to the left or right to find throwing lines in the pocket. Identifying the blitz per-snap and exploiting it. Being more productive when under pressure.

I was not talking about stats. I was talking about their skill sets.

Baker definitely needs to work on those things. Maybe if he finally gets to stay in a system for a year or two he will improve.

There is a lot in there that has the potential to get better with experience in running an offense over time. He has had the polar opposite of that opportunity until 4 games ago. (Italicized.)

I recollect thinking that Baker's rookie-year pocket movement was very good - for a rookie. Then it all went south last year and is a point of emphasis this year.

If it's fair to say his rookie year was an anomaly, it's equally far to say that last year was also an anomaly. He/they are undoing a year of awful play/coaching...and that's not going to occur overnight. He's a long way from being a finished product.

Because this is a discussion board and it's what people have already done. All I did was post the actual statistics from other QB's first 3 years as starters + the 'bad throw' %.

Baker is entirely his own man - but in any competitive arena people's/player's performances are ALWAYS going to be analyzed in relation to others who play the same position.

You said a lot of what I was going to say.

Agree that the Brees comparison is due primarily to their size. I also like the Favre comparison but I tend to think Baker won't be the turnover machine Favre was...

Baker is unique and I still believe he will be very good to excellent at this level.

I wanted Baker for several reasons. He was the consensus #1 for several reasons. One reason I liked Baker was his ability to read a defense, to work thru his progressions and find the right receiver. His ability to look off receivers, or to pump fake to bait the receivers.... he was an absolute gem in college.

1, I do think he struggles to read a more complex defense with a lot of motion, etc. But I believe there's a learning curve with all young quarterbacks in that regard. Our franchise hasn't done much to help him in this regard.

No excuses.

2, I believe he knows where to go with the ball and where he should throw it. I also believe he doesn't throw it there all the time because he's looking for the big play, the homerun. I believe his issues with this were exacerbated last season. If you want to blame coaching, or OBJ, or whatever, fine.

3, I believe Baker feels a lot of pressure quarterbacking this team. We're the Browns. We have a ton of offensive weapons that want the ball. He wants to be a hero.

Baker lost confidence. If you want to say he regressed (I'm not), I won't stop you.

With that said... I really wanted McDaniels to be the head coach. However, I now believe Stefanski was the best fit for this team. I love what Stefanski is doing. Yes, we can run the ball. It's not that we're running the ball because we don't believe in Baker, we're running the ball to alleviate the pressure on Baker to win games with his arm. Baker can most certainly do that, but we don't need him to. Once he realizes that and he gains confidence back, he and we are going to be pretty darn good.

The "Baker can't read a defense" claims are not 100% accurate. Don't believe them. Is he great at it? No. Will he get better? Yes.

Stefanski is doing an awesome job with this team and Baker. Kudos to those who pinpointed him as a stud HC. Yes, stil too early to tell, but I love what I see so far.

I agree with everything you are saying Vers. Don't get me wrong, it is not fair to compare Baker to anyone as Eve mentioned. I went with the Brees comparison because it helped me outline my thought process with Baker. Once Brees got protection, bulked up, and landed in a system that suited him, he was lights out. One of the most prolific passers in the game. All I was saying that it took him a while to get to that point.

I think Baker is is finally in a system that suits him, and he has talent all around him. I think we will see abetter version of Baker by the end of the season, and next year we will see what Baker can become. If he is still showing the things that are holding him back now, it may be time to plan for the future with someone else. I just think he needs more than 4 games in this system before we start truly evaluating him. He has looked much better this year than last IMO.

I used to think people were tearing down our players/coaches so quickly because they were sick of losing, but here we are at 3-1 and our QB has 3 straight 100+ rated games and so many still talking about how terrible he is.

We beat the Cowboys by ELEVEN, and people are acting like we lost.

"But they ALMOST caught up!", yeah, but then our guys say no, and won the game.

The Patriots have won tons of games (Super Bowls included) by 3 points or less. W is W.

After years of watching us ACTUALLY blow lead after lead, I'm not going to get mad that they ALMOST ALMOST blew it. hahaha, I'm gonna live in the moment and enjoy being "IN THE HUNT" after 4 weeks, which usually isn't a big deal for most teams but for Browns fans it's a much needed respite from losing.

Baker moved up three spots in PFF's weekly QB rankings. He went from 27th overall to 24th. His 68.2
The top 3 are:

Aaron Rodgers: 96.3
Russell Wilson: 95
Tom Brady: 90.7

Interesting, Joe Burrow is ranked 9th overall, w/a score of 79.9. That is fairly incredible given how bad Cinci's OL is.

Are these numbers influenced by amounts of pass attempts? I ask because if they are, wouldn’t that naturally skew the number higher for guys who are throwing mor often?

I am not positive, but no, I don't believe they are. That would be shallow and their rankings are based on analytics and go much deeper than those kinds of stats. For example, they identify things like who was responsible for pressures and sacks. Things like adjusted completions and interceptions. Passing efficiency, etc...

Maybe someone like cfrs, Milk, or Memphis can provide more details on exactly how they arrive at their grades.

I just did a quick search and there is info out there. Here is one link. I could post others if you like. I would like to post the article, but it has photos in it.

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-how-pff-grades-quarterback-play

So, perhaps you are suggesting that the maturation to success, the gaudy statistical guys, are improved by their success or the club's culture helping them achieve the next step. The individual improves, but to a degree it is a self-fulfilling prophecy in part. Just a thought about why some make the leap and others never do.

Just clicking; but...

...

Who the (sl)udge is Drew Brees!

we agree on about 95% of the things when it comes to QB's.
I was looking a lot at stats because I remember Brees pro bowlyear. he looked pretty good. not Breese great yet and he wasn't pumpkin chucking the ball everywhere in the USA.
They both have that moxie and both had great RB's LT and TE's Gates


you can't tell me they don't look somewhat similar. even the way they act and run (Brees TD catch) as an example.


here are his stats that year
65.5% Completion
3159 Yards
27 TD's
7 INT's
Y/G 210
104.8 TG

Here is what Baker is projected as
62.2% completion
2916 Yards
28 TD's
8 INTs
93.7 RTG
182. Y/G

If he has a few big games, he will definitely be on point with Brees year 4.

Okay bro...……..we disagree about the comparison, but you made a sound argument w/out any of the personal crap. I hope you end up winning this debate.

Interesting. They are quite thorough in their grading. I really like the fact that they grade on the actual pass, not thevresult

Me too. They are like that w/all their gradings.

I don't think they are an end-all. I have seen some crazy grades from them. The worst ones I have seen over the years are w/DBs. I think they sometimes ignore guys being in the wrong spot. I could be wrong about that, though.

J/c After watching the Brees highlights, I’ll be happy with a “Brees-esque” Mayfield.

Now, to split hairs, if BM can only develop into 80% of DBs skills, will that validate his pick to posters here? Let’s give him a break and say he makes the playoffs 6 times, and the AFC championship twice.

The 2018 Baker had better receiving options after #1 and #2,
Landry
Louis
Callaway
Higgins
Coleman and
Willies, not even including Perriman,

The 2020 Baker apparently has
Odell
Landry
Hodge
Higgins (who never gets used)(so does not exist)
Peoples-Jones (who only has had special teams snaps and has proven very little so almost does not exist)



... Callaway was on FIRE, and Coleman and Louis were experienced, (shoot, Let's not forget Higgins actually got used, in 18 and he was probably more solid than even Callaway,
Louis was the most experienced, and Willies always had a rapport with Baker,

I miss the 2018 Wr's They really had something.

What?

I'm basically looking back on why 1st year Baker Mayfield had 29+ touchdowns and looked like a world beater; compared to 2019 and 2020 Baker Mayfield.

People may forget, Antonio Callaway had up to 7, between 4 and 7, I'm not sure, Touchdowns called back, because of ticky tack penalties often, like questionable holding or crack back block penalties; to go along with the touchdowns he had.
Issues... but on the field? Dang, I miss Callaway and the 2018 Wrs.

Im not sure if you're being serious or not.

I mean if we really missed them that much we could probably go get them. Other than Landry and Higgins who are still here, I don't know that Coleman, Callaway, or Willies are with any other team, are they?

Baker's issue isn't necessarily the receivers. Baker has lost his moxie. Stefanski is doing a great job of building Baker's confidence. Just sit back and watch. It's going to be fun.

I think this is more the case than many realize. We've talked about the (4) head coaches in BM's career...what we haven't talked much about is that we are on the (3rd) iteration of BM himself.

Year (1) we had carefree, record-breaking, grip-and-rip BM...Year (2) we had a WTH all-around year including a WTH happened to BM... Year (3) is a new and rebuilding BM. It's so Browns (hopefully old Browns) that it's not even funny.

We change(d) coaches and FOs and QBs like underwear...then we finally/maybe/hopefully find a QB and we get (3) different versions of him in less than (3) years. I am encouraged all around (with the exception of our perpetual inability to cover the middle of the defense) but this ish is going to take a minute to completely turn around.

Jake Burns, who I respect for the way he sees the game, did another breakdown of Baker after the Washington game. He has the good, bad, and ugly. I have to post the link due to videos w/in the article.

I am posting this because he is seeing things in a similar manner as I am. The video evidence might help make the points more clear.

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-brow...ek-3-152242736/

I wish brady, wilson, and rodgers numbers were there too to compare.

33 Touchdowns was fun.

In a very strange way I thought that Baker was nearly always on time with his throws his 1st year here. My eyes didn't lie to me and I saw that as a real asset.

But lets step back in the 3 quarter of the Cowboy game he completed a pass to the right hash to OBJ, and if you truly noticed OBJ had great seperation but by the time Bake let it fly the DB has closed on OBJ. OBJ had the DB drapped all over him by the time the ball arrived and that is something I watch for. The play was where OBJ jumped up and ran and was tackled again at the goal line. That play didn't work as well as it would have if Baker had been on time with the throw. It's something I have been noticing quite a bit from Baker, this isn't college.

Anyway something to watch for.

Without doubt in year 1 Baker made an absolute ton of throws where he was releasing the ball before the receiver was looking for the ball. Obviously depending on the depth of the route, air pass yards, the release was sometimes before/as the receiver made a cut. That's what I call throwing the receiver open - something Brown's QB's have lacked the ability to do most of the time. It's one of the reason's I was so excited. Baker's success was absolutely not based on a "chuck it up and hope" & whether or not the play calling and reads were limited or not - Baker threw with anticipation to a spot where receivers broke to and caught the ball. Baker did it more in year one than I remember any other QB's doing for the Browns since 1999.

IN the game against the Cowboys (and the week before), there were a couple of sideline throws where Baker is doing the same thing. Releasing the ball as the WR makes his cut ... making it much harder for the corner back or safety to react and make a play. I am hoping we will see more and more of this as we get more acclimatized to the offense. In my mind - throwing with anticipation and throwing receivers open is skill not that many NFL QB's have. (Or maybe my expectations have lowered thru watching so many bad QB's play for the Browns).

It's a tricky thing for a lot of people to recognize. Baker was struggling under Haley. If you remember, it was Hue who suggested that we alter the offense to incorporate some things that Baker did well at Oklahoma. That did not happen. Haley said it was "a process." When Freddie took over, Baker flourished. Freddie cut the playing field in half, went w/max protection, went w/a lot of quick plays where Baker threw to a spot. He also asked his players which plays they preferred. This led to a lot of quick throws where Baker to his first read.

However, he did struggle w/processing when that first read wasn't open. I talked about it all the time and most did not want to hear it. DC's adjusted in year two and started to try and take away those plays. Ironically it was Gregg Williams who set the blueprint. I kept saying it last year and was told "you hate Baker," as if that is a reason for Baker's issues.

I brought it up again this year and it wasn't until there were video evidence when guys broke down plays on tape that some started to admit to it.

Baker is doing some good things. He is still very accurate when that first read is open. He is doing well when on the move. He makes some very tough tight-window throws. He is still struggling w/stepping up in the pocket, keeping his eyes up when pressured, and is not quickly going through his progressions.

I posted a link to a video breakdown of all that a few posts up. Check it out. Sometimes it helps to see visual evidence instead of just reading words on a device.

I think the offense is better when a couple plays here and there get sprinkled in with 3 WR's, or more, on the field.