here's what Vers is talking about. starts at the 2 minute mark
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
One thing if for sure, Baker has to be top 5 in the amount of time afforded to throw..He should be able to read the whole field in the time hes been given. The line this year is amazing
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
Hahaha. I should clarify. I'm more surprised his rating was as high as it was earlier in the game. His misses usually stick out more, in general (for me).
I was struggling to start figuring out what exactly is happening to our offense in the second half of these games, but those numbers definitely support the argument that the issue is largely (things like this never have just 1 root cause) with the QB position.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
new system, 4th head coach, and already have playmakers and some Olinemen shuffling in and out.
bad QB play means were aren't 4-1 right now. we're 1-4.
is growth being shown? yes
is accuracy being shown? yes
has he become a better leader? yes
is the arm talent being shown? yes
the frustration is that this is his 3rd year, and he's making decisions like a rookie, but thats because when you have this much change in such a short amount of time, i can't expect too many QB's to thrive in that situation.
and all things being considered....he's thriving. hopefully with Njoku back, and makes the reads a bit easier. hopefully with his boy Higgins back in the lineup, it makes the reads a bit easier.
people brought it up in the post game thread; when Higgins is in the game, good things just happen.
next week we have pittsburgh. as long as Baker continues to show growth, especially against good teams, then at the end of the day, He's the undisputed guy.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Here is a link to what Orlovsky was talking about. It wasn't for just the last two games. It's for the year.
In the 4th quarter, Baker is 7 for 18 for 82 yards and a 38.9 completion percentage. 1 TD and 2 picks. With a rating of 27.8.
I'll provide a link so you can see for yourselves. But, for comparison sake, his QBR in the first quarter is 90.8 2nd quarter is 124.3. Third quarter is 58.8.
A player doesn't look at the clock and suddenly start playing different; they don't have some weird inner thing that says "it's the third quarter, it's time to forget how to throw for the next twelve minutes". The coaches have DEFINITELY been calling things different, however. We've been playing with leads and going almost "prevent Offense" to try to burn clock. We've been doing a ton of Run-Run-Pass-Punt; especially yesterday during the second half doldrums. When you run into a wall on 1st & 2nd downs, you're using some clock, but you're making it tough on your guys for 3rd down. The offense as a whole got WAY too conservative in the second half and I do not put that on any of the guys standing between the lines; that's on the guys calling things in.
As a note, until that last drive where Johnson finally got a little success, it felt like all the effective pull blocking we'd seen in the first half had disappeared and we were just trying to straight-up man block while running Metcalf up the Middle. Then, suddenly, the pulling guards and all that resurfaced and the offense started to click again.
Just my thoughts on those percentages by quarter; yes, those are his numbers, but those are also numbers that require the offense to be clicking in the same manner.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
I tend to agree with people on both sides of the fence. I think Baker's confidence was all but shattered last season. I see a coach taking the slow lane in the restoration process. I really don't have a problem with that as long as I don't see constant egregious mistakes. "Trust your eyes" has been caught on mic a few times already, so I don't think Stefanski doesn't trust his QB.
Did he trust him on 3rd and 9 yesterday? The short answer is "no". But we have also been trained to judge our coaches while watching them play checkers. Stefanski plays chess.
Here are Baker's last three pass attempts:
3rd & 8 at IND 36 (7:41 - 4th) (Shotgun) B.Mayfield sacked at CLV 48 for -16 yards (B.Okereke).PENALTY on IND-B.Okereke, Defensive Offside, 5 yards, enforced at IND 36 - No Play. Colts dial up fierce blitz, defenders in his face, sacked and slow to get up.
3rd & 3 at IND 31 (7:16 - 4th) (Shotgun) B.Mayfield pass short middle intended for J.Landry INTERCEPTED by A.Walker [J.Houston] at IND 19. A.Walker pushed ob at IND 30 for 11 yards (O.Beckham). Baker got CRUSHED.
2nd & 9 at CLE 43 (2:30 - 4th) B.Mayfield pass incomplete short left to A.Hooper. Baker has two defenders in his face the second he turns from play-action, gets rocked and smashes his hand into defender's helmet.
Checkers: Do what everyone in the world knows you will, attempt a pass to pick up a 1st down.
Chess: -- Your OL is tired, defense has created pressure at will. -- Your QB is hurting, has made more mistakes in the second half, is "rattled" by the constant pressure. -- A conservative play call all but eliminates a disastrous outcome which may directly cost the game and directly affect the "restoration process". -- Keeping the clock moving eliminates the "free" TO at the 2:00 warning and you take 25 seconds off the clock. -- Your punter can pin them deep as he did the last possession. -- A run is the last thing they're expecting, especially when they don't see Hunt in the backfield.
Two weeks in a row, the game was iced with an unexpected play call. While I'm not going to try and gauge what percentage of that decision was based on our coach not trusting his QB, I won't ignore the fact either. He also didn't trust our OL or receivers at that point; the line was gassed and getting "outworked", trusted receivers were dropping easy passes.
Take advantage of upside / mitigate risk. THAT'S winning football. THAT'S a breath of fresh air in Cleveland.
Do you agree w/Orlovsky and me about Baker is going to have step-up and win games?
If the answer is yes, how confident are you in him given what we have seen?
My eyes have not lied to me yet, even when folks ridiculed me about him holding the ball and being slow w/his reads. We now have guys who have analyzed those things and displayed visual evidence. We have Next Gen stats confirming those things the last two years. So, please don't dismiss what my eyes are telling me in regards to being very nervous about Baker in the clutch and perhaps Stef is a bit reluctant to put the game in his hands in crunch time. Not asking you to agree w/me, but maybe just keep your eyes open?
I have to laugh like hell at those who NIT PICK..pretending that they are some kind of football guru.
This "make believe pretending" that some do..it's just some fantasy game you're making up in your head, making a 50-50 bet that you might have guessed right, so you can say..look at me, I'm so damn good at this "fantasy game".
As for the talking heads on TV...they just play "the same make believe fantasy game" with more people listening to their 50-50 predictions.
The "make believe game", inside the real game. IMO
I tend to agree with people on both sides of the fence. I think Baker's confidence was all but shattered last season. I see a coach taking the slow lane in the restoration process. I really don't have a problem with that as long as I don't see constant egregious mistakes. "Trust your eyes" has been caught on mic a few times already, so I don't think Stefanski doesn't trust his QB.
Did he trust him on 3rd and 9 yesterday? The short answer is "no". But we have also been trained to judge our coaches while watching them play checkers. Stefanski plays chess.
Here are Baker's last three pass attempts:
3rd & 8 at IND 36 (7:41 - 4th) (Shotgun) B.Mayfield sacked at CLV 48 for -16 yards (B.Okereke).PENALTY on IND-B.Okereke, Defensive Offside, 5 yards, enforced at IND 36 - No Play. Colts dial up fierce blitz, defenders in his face, sacked and slow to get up.
3rd & 3 at IND 31 (7:16 - 4th) (Shotgun) B.Mayfield pass short middle intended for J.Landry INTERCEPTED by A.Walker [J.Houston] at IND 19. A.Walker pushed ob at IND 30 for 11 yards (O.Beckham). Baker got CRUSHED.
2nd & 9 at CLE 43 (2:30 - 4th) B.Mayfield pass incomplete short left to A.Hooper. Baker has two defenders in his face the second he turns from play-action, gets rocked and smashes his hand into defender's helmet.
Checkers: Do what everyone in the world knows you will, attempt a pass to pick up a 1st down.
Chess: -- Your OL is tired, defense has created pressure at will. -- Your QB is hurting, has made more mistakes in the second half, is "rattled" by the constant pressure. -- A conservative play call all but eliminates a disastrous outcome which may directly cost the game and directly affect the "restoration process". -- Keeping the clock moving eliminates the "free" TO at the 2:00 warning and you take 25 seconds off the clock. -- Your punter can pin them deep as he did the last possession. -- A run is the last thing they're expecting, especially when they don't see Hunt in the backfield.
Two weeks in a row, the game was iced with an unexpected play call. While I'm not going to try and gauge what percentage of that decision was based on our coach not trusting his QB, I won't ignore the fact either. He also didn't trust our OL or receivers at that point; the line was gassed and getting "outworked", trusted receivers were dropping easy passes.
Take advantage of upside / mitigate risk. THAT'S winning football. THAT'S a breath of fresh air in Cleveland.
I think your post here and Swish's last post are spot on.
No-one is saying Baker is perfect. Baker is being coached, he has shown improvement. The OL play has been great but there were plays at the end of the game yesterday with subs in along the OL where Baker was getting hit quickly. The second interception he got hit brutally as he was throwing, pretty sure that was what caused the pick ...
Pittsburgh are another good D - they know Baker. Should tell us a little more about he maturation and development of Baker.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
First, I'm NOT dismissing your eyes, I trust yours better than my own lol.
Do I agree Baker is going to have step-up and win games?
YES. All QBs are put in that position. It may look different on this team because we have two great RBs and our run blocking is among the best in the league thus far. "Put the team on his back" moments won't be a way of life by any stretch. Is preserving a win and "stepping up to win a game" the same thing? I don't think they are. Preserving a victory is game-manager type situation, and your coaching and play-calling is totally different in each.
How confident am I that he can, given what we have seen?
Again, by wording your questions and statements the way you have, I assume you mean the following type situation: Browns down by a TD or more late in a game, no time to run or run has been ineffective, Baker needs to win the game. The truth? Not overly confident. Do I like our chances? While I could easily pick a handful of QBs I'd rather have in the backfield right now, I not going to "pucker". I like Baker in that role and look forward to seeing him in those situations. I still think he will be that guy sooner rather than later. I'm not going to judge him in that regard by comparing how he has done, or how much the coach trusts him, in game-manager-preserve-the-lead type situations. I think those are two different things.
My eyes are wide open, waiting for the chance to present itself, it hasn't yet this season. We've been blown off the track in one game and have had healthy leads in the other three.
Here's what I watched yesterday. We built a lead during the stretch where we threw the ball at a 2-1 ratio compared to running. Baker made mistakes, had a few bad passes, a few really good passes, as far as "throwing the football", he was better the week before. But he still got it done. We moved the chains, he was good on third down, we scored. We didn't punt til 3:58 in the third -- with a non-existent running game.
When you called Baker the "weak link" in this offense, I didn't take it to be such a crazy statement. It's just as much a reflection of the great talent we've assembled on offense as it is an indictment on Baker. I've heard others in the media say as much. I want Baker to be great, I am resigned to the fact that it will be more of a progression than the overnight success we thought was the trajectory in 2018. I'm okay with that and willing to cut him some slack.
Watching the game yesterday, there were two players most responsible for the victory (imo)... Myles Garrett and Baker Mayfield. I'll take the "W" and move forward without the wouldas, couldas, what-ifs and yeah-but-what-happens-whens.
a couple of thoughts swish. I do not think you can average 30+ points per game with mediocre qb play. baker is showing improvement and after seeing the comparison of his first three years to some other guys who went on to be a pretty good Qb I feel pretty good about where we are going.
does anyone else find it ironic that orlovsky cited the end of games drives the past two weeks as failures on baker’s part. I may be wrong but didn’t we score on both those drives to put both games out of reach?? isn’t that the goal of the game. Since we were not behind I do not think the coach was putting winning of the game on baker’s shoulders. I think coach was pretty happy with how each drive turned out.
As I said on and earlier post I believe Baker is improving each week albeit slowly. Obviously he is in his 3rd year and not a rookie but he is on his 4th coach and at least his 3rd system. For a 3rd year QB he's as close to a rookie as you can get with all the coaches and systems. As he gets more comfortable with the system he's in now he should get better as the season progresses as he is doing. JMO
Baker has not yet shown he can win a game late with it all on the line.
He has played great at times. He has made great throws at times.
However, he has not been consistent. Some of that comes from all the changes and not being in the same offense.
The deal is. He is learning how to play for this team in the NFL. It does not come easy. Experience is a great teacher.
I don't know what Baker will become as a quarterback. Right now I am patient.
He is playing better and improving. That is a big step.
Winning is important and it means something.
This season will add experience. Winning breeds confidence.
I am happy to be where we are. I look forward to watching this team. I believe Baker will continue to improve and grow with this team.
I think Stefanski, Van Pelt, and Callahan will coach this team up.
It will be a source of tremendous satisfaction if we can keep growing as a team. Whatever, happens this year to open camp next year with this team playing in the same systems will only makes us better.
This is the best I have felt about the Browns and their future since the Bernie days.
The one thing I notice this season over seasons past, is I am not waiting for that blunder that loses the game or lead, and I have more confidence we can win.
In years past, up by 17 at the half was still not a confidence boost that we would win. In fact, in years past, it was almost a given that the opponent would make halftime adjustments and the Browns would roll over and die.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
I have twice today typed out at length a few times today these exact thoughts in different ways, but then decided to not bother posting.
We just finished Game 5 in yet another regime change, and for the first time since The Return, we are 4-1..... with a team that is just learning how to play the way the new coaches want them to play. Absolutely NONE of this is settled or a final product and we are only getting flashes and glimpses of what this can become. We have a coach giving us the offense we expected under Freddie, and we have players learning to execute it, and we have coaches that actually appear to be coaching our players.
We are 4-1. We are not 4-1 DESPITE our QB. We are 4-1 WITH our QB. We are 4-1 WITH our Defense.
This thing is a real TEAM.... and it's getting better by the week.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
I think people need to move on... Baker is the QB until he is not. I can't stand the Keenam references and postulations, and certainly do not want to see any more names added to that jersey.
There is one thing that cannot be overlooked. Baker has brought stability to the most important position in the game and that has eluded the Browns since the days that Tim Couch played.
Get with it, wish him well, and we hope that he improves as an NFL QB.
Last edited by ChargerDawg; 10/12/2006:37 PM. Reason: typo
There will be no playoffs. Can’t play with who we have out there and compounding it with garbage playcalling and worse execution. We don’t have good skill players on offense period. Browns 20 - Bears 17.
We are 4-1. We are not 4-1 DESPITE our QB. We are 4-1 WITH our QB. We are 4-1 WITH our Defense.
This thing is a real TEAM.... and it's getting better by the week.
Well said, prp.
This team is learning week to week and I expect to see improvement but realistic improvement. I do not expect this team to suddenly be the best team in the AFC North, but they cannot be taken as a joke either.
I look for "progress" week to week...not perfection. Win as a team and lose as a team but never stop learning.
We are 4-1. We are not 4-1 DESPITE our QB. We are 4-1 WITH our QB. We are 4-1 WITH our Defense.
This thing is a real TEAM.... and it's getting better by the week.
Well said, prp.
This team is learning week to week and I expect to see improvement but realistic improvement. I do not expect this team to suddenly be the best team in the AFC North, but they cannot be taken as a joke either.
I look for "progress" week to week...not perfection. Win as a team and lose as a team but never stop learning.
That's fine and dandy, but in the Game Day forum, Purp said we should upgrade our CB, S, DT, and LB [not sure about this last one.]
So, why is it okay to want better from some positions and not others?
Look, I pointed out the good things Baker did. I pointed out what I thought he didn't do well. It's like it's okay to criticize others, but not Baker.
I will continue to post my honest thoughts on what I see on the football field. I am not asking anyone to agree. And I will not even trash you guys for saying things like Baker is carrying this team on his shoulders or that he is the best player on the O. We all have our opinions. I trust what I see and attempts to stifle my thoughts will not work.
Yes, Mahommes and Watson came out the year before him...but so did Trubisy Yes, Lamar and Josh Allen came out the same year he did, but so did Darnold and Rosen Kyler Murray came out the year after but seems to not flash quite like he did as a rookie. Then of course there is Jones and Haskins
As it stands, he is middle of the pack on recent 1st round QB's. We shall see if he continues to progress. I certainly hope so but he does lack the mobility of a lot of those more successful young QB's.
People ask me what I do in spring when there's no football. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for fall
If his play wasn't NFL starting caliber or was causing us losses, I'd be all in favor of upgrading him.
He is none of the above. He is not holding this offense back.
Furthermore, any assertions that we'd be better off with Keenum is blatant ignorance. Period. There is no scenario short of debilitating injury to Baker where we are better off with Keenum. None.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
I think he is holding us back, certainly more than our corners and DTs are. But, that is just my opinion. I do not think Keenum should start. I am not ignorant, either.
I want to say this again. In past years, I have stated that Baker struggled reading post-snap coverages. I have said he holds the ball too long. I have said he has left clean pockets and runs into sacks. I was told I had an "agenda," that I "hated Baker," was "ignorant," was called a "liar," etc, etc.
Since that time, there is video and statistical evidence proving all the things I said. Yet now, people are still dismissing my thoughts as ignorant, having an agenda, writing false narratives, etc.
Look, I try and talk football. I express my opinions and many of them are intended to educate. I despise this personality crap.
And for you old-timers, you might remember similar "debates" that we had about guys like Weeden, BQ, and Couch. I am not asking anyone to agree w/me. But you would think that by now, people would abandon the "I'm just making it up" crap because I don't like him.
It's always been important to me to be honest. And again, if you look back to my first post in this thread today, I gave Baker a lot of compliments. People making this a personality contest does not change how Baker is playing.
What football do you have to offer? Your post is about me. And I did not say that the coaches don't trust him as a fact. I said it was a feeling that I had and it was something to watch for. That is an opinion and not stated as a fact.
What adds up is that most all stats need to be taken with a grain of salt...maybe a brick of salt...even the only one that matters in W-L. (I know you know that...just throwing it out there.)
I watched Mahommes hold the ball forever and leave the pocket early with regularity Sunday. (Starting FA LG Osemele was knocked out early in the game.) I wonder what that one day did to his "stats" in those regards. Note: I don't really "wonder" there...I don't care...the guy is still impressive.
Fun fact:
They have Matt Moore on their PS along with some unknown cat. Interesting that Dallas didn't go there.
Instead of 'grain of salt' I say stats are pieces of information that can help you understand something. TomAto/Tomaato...
What those grades tell me is that Baker's overall grade is being dragged down by something. Someone said earlier that his 4th quarter and second half grades aren't good. If PFF's grades weigh the end of the games heavier (like the ESPN grading), then that probably explains it.
In a more broader sense, I think portion(s) of Baker's game is dragging down his overall effectiveness this season, and to that end, I think the grade makes a little sense. We've seen his grade in certain situations (play-action, bootleg, etc) and it's very high.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
