DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Comparisons 2

To Eve:

It probably doesn't sound like it, but I am still in Baker's corner. I said he should get the season to show something significant to continue building around him, but the Pitt game is a large argument to the contrary. He'll get 10 more chances to prove that was a fluke (my hope).

I find it odd or funny that Baker landed in the most dysfunctional franchise in the NFL - he's on his 4th HC and he hasn't completed 2 1/2 seasons of football. He's on his 3rd play caller / OC. He set a record for rookie TD's in his first year before Freddie took over as HC with his culture that seemed to be a mixture of arrogance and unpreparedness and unprofessionalism and added to Baker's own failings and short comings with last year's woeful performances. Yes Freddie simplified and made the offense sing in 2018 when he took over Haley's scheme - then he *seems* to have decided he was smarter than everyone, abandoned what worked for his scheme in 2019.

Rosen and Darnold went to bad teams but have not faced these same challenges - and both seemed to have failed as starters in the NFL, without touching or showing the same ability/potential/ceiling Baker did in 2018..... and yet it seems to be a thing where posters in the other thread that's now locked think those 2 have more/better potential than Baker? I just don't get it.

This is what I posted b4 and probably needs to be my last take for a few weeks on Baker while things play out:

I think it's perfectly rational and reasonable to say that Baker:

[1] clearly has issues reading the D pre-snap when the D tries to confuse him - that he needs to continue to show and speed up going thru progressions when his 1st option is covered - needs to continue to get better at moving the safeties with his eyes - continue the pocket awareness and stop leaving clean pockets

[2] At the same time, also say that against Pit/Ravens, he wasn't given a chance to succeed because the whole team was totally overmatched. Personally I think there are few QB's that would have had success and none would have got the win - just look at Rogers when he was also put under similar pressure. AND - Acknowledge he's not been put into a stable situation to succeed AND he's not been coached in a stable environment give him a chance to reach his full potential.

He's shown flashes of elite arm talent. He's shown consistent flaws. I'm not yet prepared to anoint him a bust and I am not going to say all his issues are coachable - there is a certain amount of innate mental ability to process the game and read what's happening *at a speed that is required at an elite level*. What we don't know is with a consistent environment and team around him, what is his ceiling regards the mental aspect of the game?

I mentioned elsewhere - the NFL has seen the blueprint on how to beat Baker with pressure and disguised coverages .... we should get ample opportunity to see if he can get better because every defense we face should be doing both things to the best of their ability for the remainder of the year.

Jc

We are 4 and 2. Stop throwing Baker under the bus. The losses we had were TEAM LOSSES.

Pointing out flaws is not the same thing as throwing him under the bus.

I'm not holding anything in this past game against him. I've had bruised ribs and I couldnt imagine taking the hits he did within a week of sustaining the injury. He was wincing in pain after that first hit. They should have pulled him right then. There's no way anyone could not let that kind of pain affect their play.

I agree to an extent the loss is not on Baker, but he was a large contributor. He didn't help at all.

I have held out hope for Baker. I have seen flashes of a Franchise QB, but no consistency. I can't think of one game where Baker faced an elite team and showcased himself. We need to face it, he is just not that great.

I saw a QB who is gun shy, scared, and not able to process his reads quick enough to make a decision. We have 2 of the best receivers in the game of football on our team, and all we could muster was 119 yards passing? I know there was immense pressure and our OL laid an egg, but that is on Baker. He needs to understand this and get the ball out quickly. When his first read is not open, he either throws it anyway, or just holds it and doesn't know what to do. Heck, just throw it away, or just get it in the vicinity or Landry or Beckham and give them a chance.

If Baker is still "learning the offense" then he needs to be benched and Keenan needs to start. Let him "learn" for a few games and put him back. Baker is costing us games at this point, and hasn't really had a great game yet this season. I'm quickly losing hope he is the answer.

Baker will have the rest of the season to show what he has. I hope he makes great strides and becomes the best QB in history. Will he?
One thing is for sure, once the NFL gets an inkling of your weaknesses,they use them.
Did Pitt show the rest of the league the map? Maybe.

I had a fractured (non-displaced) rib many years ago, and could not even breathe without incredible pain. I could not sleep without pain. It was awful.

So you're blaming Baker for not being perfect because he is still learning a new offense when he is on his 4th HC in 3 years, there was no offseason or preseason, and the rest of the team is trying to catch up as well.

And still we are 4 and 2.

Got it.

I think he knows the offense - I just don't agree that he has cost us wins. Ravens dominated us ... Pittsburgh made us their lil bitches for 60 minutes. Both were team losses.

j/c:

One of the biggest concerns is how is the locker room going to react to what's happening. There are players on this team who are real "ballers," yet they are being held back due to Baker's deficiencies. Then, those same players see him plastered all over TV on commercial after commercial. Progressive, Hula, the Heisman house...I think that is Nissan. And he can't even pull his weight on the field.

Then, you have social media and sports talk radio and people are focusing on absurd things like OBJ's shoes. They blame the OL. They blame the coaches. They blame the D. And say that we need to be patient w/Baker.

I've been in locker rooms. That doesn't play out well w/the brotherhood. I am NOT blaming Baker for any of that, other than he has sucked. Playing in a new offense isn't why he can't read coverages or exploit blitzes. I've seen similar situations play out time and time again. Blaming others for the shortcomings of others hurts the camaraderie of the team. I wonder if anyone has even considered that if Baker had played better, he might not be on his 4th HC? Even more crazy is that some want to ship OBJ out.

Your reasoning is a bunch of bs.

I do not think anyone cares if Baker makes commercials. Nor does anyone care about OBJ shoes. Its a bunch of fluff for weak minded fans to chew on.

We are 4 and 2. We lost to 2 teams with established dominant schemes and systems.

We lost because we are still learning how to win.

They are TEAM LOSSES.

Stop throwing Baker under the bus.

I'll do as I wish. And I already have said it was a team loss.

The only way any of that affects the locker room is if Baker isn't owning his poor play.

Baker's attitude in the locker room is what matters...not commercials, not talking heads, not Twitter. Baker deserves a lot of criticism for his play. But unless he's an absolute arse off the field on top of that, I don't think we need to kick a guy when he's down and add this to his list of cons as well.

I'm not kicking him when he is down, but I have been in locker rooms. I have know professional athletes. I think some old timers around here remember when I used to share stories from two players and one coach from the Browns. I understand the dynamics of a locker room. You don't have to believe me, but I'm not talking out my butt when I say ballers now ballers and they put a ton of emphasis on the coin.

I could have sworn I said I didn't blame Baker for that stuff when I replied to Eve? Did I leave that out? Or, are you just ignoring it to start another argument?

I'm not trying to pick a fight nor am I trying to engage in an argument.

Quite honestly I'm pretty depressed over the realization that we are still in search of a QB.

We are 4-2 and I couldn't be less excited about watching the game this weekend.

I hate this feeling.

Okay, sorry.

I just wanted to clarify I wasn't blaming Baker for the mindset of some fans, advertisers, and talk radio. I don't blame him for getting it while he can.

I've had broken ribs before. Not fun at all. In fact, if the CIA were to call me and ask me how to get a Isis terrorist to talk, I'd tell them a couple hard whacks to the ribs with a baseball bat.. wait a couple days till it's nice and tender then show the terrorist a small jar of sneezing powder... he'll babble his brains out.

Now try to toss a football.

Hey bro..............here is the thing. I think Baker is a tough guy. I admire his moxie. I admire that gutted it out and played w/the bad ribs. There are not many injuries that are more painful. Sneezing causes intense pain.

I don't question Baker's toughness. I have also admired how he has kept his mouth shut this year instead of bashing people. No personality issues this year.

But, his ribs aren't causing his inability to read coverages. They aren't causing his inability recognize where the blitz is coming from and where to throw it to exploit the blitz. Those are mental issues rather than physical.

ESPN analyst Dan Orlovsky: Browns shouldn't give up on Baker, but he and the team have work to do

https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/br...have-work-to-do


By: Camryn JusticePosted at 2:04 PM, Oct 20, 2020 and last updated 2:28 PM, Oct 20, 2020
CLEVELAND — Cleveland Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield had a rough time in Pittsburgh during Sunday's 38-7 loss. His less-than-ideal performance drew the ire of fans who are now questioning whether Mayfield is the guy for the job. Former NFL quarterback and current ESPN analyst Dan Orlovsky says now is not the time to panic.

Orlovsky said that while there are clear concerns about Mayfield’s deficiencies, such as adjusting his defensive reads pre-snap versus post-snap, there are ways to improve those issues and for the Browns to remain confident in the player they chose as their franchise quarterback.

What Baker Mayfield can do
When you go back and watch some of the questionable (or downright awful) throws Mayfield has made this season, one thing stands out about almost all of them—his eyes.

The way Mayfield reads the field and reads defenses is great pre-snap, but post-snap, he struggles. Take, for example, the interception thrown to the Steelers’ safety Minkah Fitzpatrick on Sunday.

team have work to do
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Photo by: Gene J. Puskar/AP
(AP Photo/Gene J. Puskar)
By: Camryn JusticePosted at 2:04 PM, Oct 20, 2020 and last updated 2:28 PM, Oct 20, 2020
CLEVELAND — Cleveland Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield had a rough time in Pittsburgh during Sunday's 38-7 loss. His less-than-ideal performance drew the ire of fans who are now questioning whether Mayfield is the guy for the job. Former NFL quarterback and current ESPN analyst Dan Orlovsky says now is not the time to panic.

Orlovsky said that while there are clear concerns about Mayfield’s deficiencies, such as adjusting his defensive reads pre-snap versus post-snap, there are ways to improve those issues and for the Browns to remain confident in the player they chose as their franchise quarterback.

Recent Stories from news5cleveland.com

What Baker Mayfield can do
When you go back and watch some of the questionable (or downright awful) throws Mayfield has made this season, one thing stands out about almost all of them—his eyes.

The way Mayfield reads the field and reads defenses is great pre-snap, but post-snap, he struggles. Take, for example, the interception thrown to the Steelers’ safety Minkah Fitzpatrick on Sunday.


Breaking down the game on ESPN’s “Get Up,” Orlovsky noted that while Mayfield read the defense correctly pre-snap—seeing an open midfield—post-snap, Fitzpatrick came down rather than dropping back. If Mayfield had adjusted and read the defense correctly post-snap, he may have seen Odell Beckham Jr. open on the outside slant and would have avoided the interception.

Orlovsky said that Mayfield’s eyes are his biggest flaw, adding that eyes are something all quarterbacks spend their careers improving, and while no one ever perfects theirs, they can get better.

The first step is making sure Mayfield is seeing the whole field clearly while not trying to focus on any one thing at a time, all while understanding the way a defense moves.

“First of all, you have to understand that you don't want quarterbacks to really see people. You want them to see movement and color and rotation. If you focus on one person, you're going to see nothing. You want to see everything,” Orlovsky said. “And so it's really trying to teach quarterbacks that they have to have a 30,000-foot view rather than an up-close and personal interaction. And so once you try to see everything, you'll see nothing. You know, it's very vice-versa. You want to see everything by not focusing on anything.”

Orlovsky said that Mayfield, if he doesn’t already, has to have a firm grasp on the inner workings of how a defense moves together, comparing it to a dial and how the parts move together when you turn it one way or the other.

The second step is “cutting the fat off plays” to make them very simple. The play-action offense that Mayfield thrives under is good for that, Orlovsky said, but it comes with a downside.

“When you're a play action-based offense, one of the benefits is you don't really need to know the coverage. You're turning your back to the defense. You're making a play fake. It's a progression offense after that—one to two to three,” Orlovsky said. “Cover 1, Cover 2—you've got to find the areas where you're going to throw the football or find the person that you have to see where they are. So: ‘Cover 2 or Cover 3— I don't care—I’ve just got to find the area where I want to throw the ball. Who's the person that could take that away?’ So that's part of the benefit of play-action passing.”

The downside to running play-action is it leaves the quarterback vulnerable to lacking good eye discipline when it comes to post-snap reads, which is what Mayfield has been struggling with.

Orlovsky said that Mayfield could benefit from replicating what he himself saw while playing under Texans head coach Gary Kubiak and behind Matt Schaub in 2009.

“I used to sit in meetings with Gary Kubiak Saturday night before the game," he said. "He would go to Matt Schaub, our starting quarterback, and say, ‘What's your read on stick dragon and Schuab has to be like, 'Alright, if I get two-high safeties, I'm working the stick outside-in, got to be aware of the corner and squat Cover 2 look. Middle field closed, I'm going to work the drag to the slant or the slant to the drag. The only time that I would work the drag right now in a middle-field open defense is if it was Cover 4 and I hated my leverage and I could just outflank a MIKE.'"

“You've got to get to the point as a quarterback where you know that like the backside of your hand, like it's breathing."

A quarterback must have a maniacal obsession with preparation and walk-throughs. He has to consistently think through what he would do in changing defensive situations, and he has to know those changes like he’s the person calling the play.

What Kevin Stefanski can do

Orlovsky believes that Browns head coach Kevin Stefanski has the ability to help improve Mayfield based on his well-rounded coaching background across different positions. What Stefanski needs to focus on, Orlovsky said, is getting Mayfield’s feet into a rhythm.

“Sometimes when Stefanski dials up plays, number one is going to be there. It's going to be there and you let it rip, and that's where Baker's at his best. If number one's not there, you've got to listen to your feet, and your feet don't have to be fast. Your feet can just be rhythmic,” Orlovsky said. “When number one's not there for Baker right now, his feet become panicky. When your feet become panicky, your eyes become panicky. When your eyes become panicky, your thoughts become panicky. And so you really just want rhythm out of his feet.”

Orlovsky said Stefanski and his coaching staff can be vigilant about Mayfield’s reads, his knowledge of the playbook and his understanding of the game.

“If I'm them, I'm maniacal with it. Baker does not get a single second at practice off. You don't get a second at practice off. We're either walking through things or talking through things. And maybe that's the case. I don't know. But he's not allowed to stand. We are constantly working on the small things of this offense,” Orlovsky said.

What the fans should expect

Three seasons into his career, it’s clear Mayfield is a far different quarterback than the superstars across the league at the position, but he can grow into a reliable, successful talent.

Four head coaches in three years isn’t going to benefit any quarterback, let alone one with the pressure of being the first-round draft pick coming onto a team that has burned through a catalog of quarterbacks looking for “the one.”

Orlovsky compared Mayfield to Washington Football Team’s quarterback Alex Smith, who has had a solid career built on continuity and noted the slack he got while growing as a player.

“A great correlation is Alex Smith on all the turnover that Alex went through as the first pick in the draft of the 49ers and all the turnover and change that he went through,” Orlovsky said. “‘Oh, Alex Smith sucks. He's never going to be anything, blah, blah, blah.' Well, no, continuity is one of the greatest forms, signs or foreshadowings of success for a young quarterback.”

If Mayfield can be consistent, he can be successful, especially for the Browns, who have added high-grade talent to surround him.

Orlovsky said that, no, Mayfield will not be a Patrick Mahomes or a Lamar Jackson or an Aaron Rodgers, but that doesn’t mean the Browns are doomed.

“The San Francisco 49ers, because of a good football team and a great coaching staff, went to the Super Bowl with a good player at the quarterback position. And so we have kind of gotten into this place, and I kind of get there myself sometimes, that we think the only way to do it is with the absolute superstar talent. There's other ways to do it,” Orlovsky said. “Quarterbacks can be just really good players, and I think Baker Mayfield can still be a really good player with good coaching and good people around him.

“Is he ever going to carry a football team? I can't say that right now. Can he ever be a really important piece on a good team? Yes."

So to the fans ready to give up on Mayfield and restart the search for a franchise quarterback, Orlovsky says this: “It's not time to consider Baker Mayfield as a bust.”

Mayfield has now had just 89 days to work with Stefanski, to mesh with his offensive scheme and to correct the mistakes and bad habits acquired last season. He needs time to improve—time that the team, and the fans, have to give him, Orlovsky said.

“It's not time to move on from him as your starting quarterback. You've got to see him fix the things that are holding him back from growth and development. That's it. And if you see incremental steps, you're encouraged. And if you don't, then the question never leaves.”

Interesting in regards to how the author represents Orlovsky's comments.

Someone who doesn't like Baker could present those comments in a completely different light.

I've been hammering on this, but this is really what everything hinges on, for me.

"Orlovsky said that Mayfield’s eyes are his biggest flaw, adding that eyes are something all quarterbacks spend their careers improving, and while no one ever perfects theirs, they can get better."

His biggest flaw is something that's possible to improve.

I think his height has a little to do with it as well, which is tougher to improve.

It just seems like he can’t either:
A) process what he’s seeing quickly
B) literally see what he’s trying to see
C) not trusting anything
D) a mixture of all of them

"... which is tougher to improve."

lol

The team is 4-2. I picked them to end up 8-8 in the season prediction thread. Being without Chubb for a big chunk of the season doesn't help the team, let alone Baker...so I didn't factor that in. Having a rookie LT who's never played LT WAS a factor for me though. Having NO pre-season in a NEW offensive scheme, and a new HC, and a NEW QB coach, and a NEW OC was a factor for me.

That said, Baker has issues that aren't attributable to these factors, but they are complicating factors nonetheless. It surprises me to see that his QBR is higher than Jared Goff's, Tom Brady's, and Ben Roethlisberger's at this point, but I'm not even sure what all that entails, but since this is a "Baker Comparisons" thread I guess it should be considered.

And watching people meltdown over a QB that came into an organization that was 1-31 upon his arrival, who is currently 4-2, with 17 wins in his 2 1/4 seasons currently is high entertainment.

Jc

Not gonna lie, if I’m Andrew Berry, I’m SERIOUSLY thinking about trading for Matt Ryan now that the falcons are shopping him and Julio.

I’ve kept quiet about bakers terrible performance last Sunday because he’s hurt, but man.....

Matt Ryan would be THE upgrade we need for us to make a deep run with this team. We got the run game, the OL, and the receivers.

Meltdown? LOL

I love when fans of one player start rooting for our team because of one player and then trash our team and it's fans. Even better is when Baker's wife calls Browns fans front-runners and idiots.

j/c

After reading this thread it seems perspective is quite lacking. First, this is the NFL and not Little League baseball. Some people act as though people who break down Bakers game are attacking a small child. That's simply not the case.

There are certain professions people choose to enter that bring constant analysis. Professional sports is one of those career paths. They get paid millions of dollars to place themselves under the microscope. It's part of the territory.

I've seen most people try to break down Bakers game. The fact is, he isn't playing well. He has played well in spurts in other games. The same can't be said for last weekend. Even in the spurts where he has played well there are still gaps in his game.

I'm not going to get into what I think he did poorly. I've already stated that in the previous thread by the same name. The only thing about that I will say is he does very poorly at his post snap reads. To some extent I can see both sides of it. We do have some posters who beat on the topic over and over and over again like beating on a drum on top of a dead horse. I can see how that can become nauseating and grating.

I also see people making every excuse in the book for him and trying to undermine everyone who points out the things he does poorly. As has been stated, he doesn't see the field well post snap. That's just a fact.

When a person enters a field where you place yourself under the microscope you will see people looking through that microscope. In every profession you are graded and evaluated. This is nothing new. It's not an attempt to demean or degrade anyone. In fact, if you're not willing to take a stab at evaluating your team or your players, other than just shouting rah, rah, what are you doing here?

Baker isn't the entire problem on this team. Even playing well it would have been very hard for him to have ever have been the savior and pull out a win against the Steelers. There is a lot of blame to go around.

Playing hurt is certainly not a time to evaluate every aspect of his game. But even in that old childhood song, the rib bone isn't connected to the eye bone.

I read something about Blank not committing to Ryan being w/the team after this year. Is there new news out there that say he is available now?

Oh, and I didn't hear anything Julio. Trading him would be crazy.

That's a gross mischaracterization of the criticisms of Baker Mayfield as well as what has went into our 4-2 record.

Do you have Twitter? The hate for Baker is real. Browns fans tweeting crap to his wife about him. Some of the stuff tweeted at them makes you look like a fanboy.

j/c ironic that in the Baker thread *some* posters are trying to make it *appear* that they are fair and balanced and want Baker to succeed and give him a chance.

But in the 'Odell' thread - the entire woes of the offense and every position group is being held back because of Baker. No agenda right. LOL

Butt hurt Ohio State football fans...and I am an Ohio State fan.

Wait... are you trying to tell me that there are people on social media that act like keyboard warriors behind their computer screens?

How much do you think that population overlaps with the group of people that comment on weaknesses of his game after watching breakdown videos?

I have no idea. I do know rational people don’t tweet at Baker and his wife about his deficiencies.

No, I don't belong to Twitter, Facebook, etc. I assumed Trooper was talking about people on this board and most likely...me. About the only thing some people have left is to try and attack other poster's character. As if that will make Baker better. LOL

I can’t speak for Trooper but there is a lot of hate out there. I don’t see much on this website. I see a lot of criticism but most is warranted imo. I don’t blame Emily for what she said because I have seen some of the crap written to them.